/ Tick marks at Burbage South

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Big Sender - on 16 Apr 2010
Was at Burbage South today, it was flippin' lovely......
BUT! some lines, including Parthian shot and Samson were covered in a ridiculous number of tick marks and chalk, surely someone who is able to attempt E9s should know to brush off the holds?, i have taken some pictures which i can put up
any thoughts?


-BS
Choss Weasel on 16 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender: Yeah I totally see your point and I think it's disgraceful! Surely it would make more sense to use brightly coloured paint to mark the holds? Chalk tick-marks will vanish the first time it rains then the holds will have to be marked all over again. Awful business.
Big Sender - on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Ian Cameron: Why are you being so sarcastic? Have I touched a raw nerve? For many people, it is very serous issue - these unsightly bright chalk lines can be seen from miles around and ruin the natural beauty of the Burbage valley.


-BS
Blue Straggler - on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:

The sarcasm may be down to the fact that there was a long thread about this issue a few months ago - but you seem to be new to the website (I don't recognise the name as being a regular poster until a couple of weeks ago) so it's fair enough that you might not have seen that one thread.

Personally I don't think that chalk marks "ruin the natural beauty" any more than a load of climbers' cars parked up and a load of climbers deforming the rock with metal wedges and shouting "watch me, mate".
steve456 on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Ian Cameron: What the hell is all this crap? Leaving tickmarks is, without any shred of sarcasm, irony or anything else, completely unacepptable. It's actually a pretty big deal, apaprently the non-climbing public don't like it either; chalky holds is one thing but drawing lines on stuff is just graffiti.

On many places tickmarks are not washed away by rain and are not easy to remove. The recent daft tick-marking of Careless Torque created lots of anger that was so well documented on and off the internet I'd have thought that everyone would be completely aware that they shouldn't donkey-tick holds and definitely shouldn't leave boudlers or routes in that state.

There's even a photo hall of shame on ukb ffs. I'm not trying to be a knob, if people don't actually appreciate this then it's not going to stop.
snoop6060 - on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:

Aye, saw this earlier in the week, they were visible from about 100m away and a total mess. Someone was also filming on the end closer to the car park with a helicopter camera thing, and the route they left (not sure what it was) was a real state afterwards. Again, massive tick marks clearly visible from the path at the bottom.

Big Sender - on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to snoop6060: Surely it would only take a few mins abbing on the topropes they no doubt had in place to clean the marks and leave the rock in its natural state!


-BS
Quiddity - on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:

But sanding down holds is ok in your book?!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=403660&v=1#x5789615

FWIW I agree with you about chalk marks, it takes very little time to brush it off when/if you finish your project, I don't see the problem with small dabs of chalk to mark crucial or hidden holds if used sparingly but massive donkey lines just look ridiculous, and if you need to be marking huge chalk arrows on the rock to locate holds then maybe people need to a) learn their sequence a bit better or b) clean some of the other chalk off the rock so you can actually see the holds under them.

Has anyone else noticed Neil Gresham's masterclass in this month's Climber is openly recommending use of chalked donkey lines in Font (including 'how-to' photo illustrations) without any mention of cleaining them when done or being sensitive to the local ethics - thought that would be more controversial.
Choss Weasel on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:
> (In reply to Ian Cameron) Why are you being so sarcastic? Have I touched a raw nerve? For many people, it is very serous issue - these unsightly bright chalk lines can be seen from miles around and ruin the natural beauty of the Burbage valley.
>
>
> -BS

Yeah it is a serious issue, I do agree. I was only having laugh, going down the silly route.
Graham Hoey - on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:
Tick marks on London Wall and Masters Edge also, the latter particularly bad.
GH
Kaya - on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender: I have posted a similar thread, Was up In Kylo this week and it was disgusting large tick marks and arrows. You cant even rub them of there so ingrained into the rock. It is disgusting and does the climbing community no positive publicity at all with reference to other users and land owners. Boulders appear to use a lot of chalk, do they not realize that it actually clogs up the asperities causing less friction and grip.
Choss Weasel on 17 Apr 2010
In reply to Kaya: It is actually really bad when the rock is permanently marked. It's like that at Wolfcrag with chalk marks.
Jonny2vests - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Graham Hoey:
> (In reply to Big Sender)
> Tick marks on London Wall and Masters Edge also, the latter particularly bad.
> GH

Yeah LW is caked at the mo. That might have something to do with the Mammut sponsorship team.
Jonny2vests - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:
> Was at Burbage South today, it was flippin' lovely......
> BUT! some lines, including Parthian shot and Samson were covered in a ridiculous number of tick marks and chalk...

You've got some cheek after suggesting sanding holds down with sandpaper was acceptable and not admitting you were in the wrong. Here's another chance for you.

YOU dont get to decide which crags are worth keeping and which ones should be trashed.
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:

>YOU dont get to decide which crags are worth keeping and which ones should be trashed.

WTF is that supposed to mean? Which crags should we be trashing exactly?

jcm
jezb1 - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I assuming it means how can be BS be suggesting sanding down holds at one crag one minute, and then moaning about some chalk marks the next.
Big Sender - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to jezb1:

1. Nobody likes polish = true
2. Nobody likes messy tick marks = true

I have consistent climbing ethics. Do you?


-BS
Rampikino - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:

Are you a polititian? That wasn't an answer.
In reply to Big Sender:
> surely someone who is able to attempt E9s should know to brush off the holds?

Depends where you come from and what is the cultural norm. If you do some investigation of who has been climbing these routes recently, you can make a fairly educated guess.
Big Sender - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Tom Briggs - Jagged Globe: Well I know not to support these activities by buying a certain brand of climbing gear then.


-BS
Jonny2vests - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> WTF is that supposed to mean? Which crags should we be trashing exactly?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=403660&v=1#x5788932

Near the bottom.
In reply to Big Sender: Hello Big Sender,

Please do upload these pictures as I am very interested in this.

Thanks,

Jack
Atticus Finch - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender: If you sanded down polished holds, then waited till they were polished again, then sanded them again... eventually the hold would disappear, because you are effectively eroding a layer each time.

So do you still think it would be acceptable?
Big Sender - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Atticus Finch: I can't be bothered arguing any more. Erosion happens anyway, this way the hold would spend more time not polished than polished.
Basically, it isnt that important. Live and let live and all that.


-BS
Guy Atkinson - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to snoop6060:
> (In reply to Big Sender)
>
Someone was also filming on the end closer to the car park with a helicopter camera thing,


That'll be the Mammut Pro Team making a new film.

http://www.climbingworks.com/blog/2010/04/14/

Quiddity - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:

Was this you?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=404526

I think at this point it would be best if you came clean about which routes/problems you have improved holds on.
snoop6060 - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Guy Atkinson:
> (In reply to snoop6060)
> [...]
> Someone was also filming on the end closer to the car park with a helicopter camera thing,
>
>
> That'll be the Mammut Pro Team making a new film.
>
> http://www.climbingworks.com/blog/2010/04/14/

Good to see these "uber beasts" coming over and trashing the place in the name of Mammut.
Dinger - on 19 Apr 2010
Some video evidence of the crimes:

http://basecamp.mammut.ch/en/basecamp-news

should make it a bit easier to identify the culprits, though I think they may have fled the scene...
snoop6060 - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Dinger:

Check out the tick marks on Parthian Shot (I think) at 42 seconds in that video.

Thats pretty poor going.

It was just as bad, if not worse on the route I saw them on. Parthian was in a bad way that day too, it was possibly when they filmed this.

Arn't a few UK climbers in the Mammut pro-team?
old skool on 19 Apr 2010
If this really was the work of the Mammut Team (was it?) there should be a general boycott on their products until they clean their shite up after them.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Jonny2vests - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Dinger:
> Some video evidence of the crimes:
>
> http://basecamp.mammut.ch/en/basecamp-news
>
> should make it a bit easier to identify the culprits, though I think they may have fled the scene...

Some dream team, they pre-placed the runners on London Wall! Surely the whole point of being able to do London Wall is having the gas to place the runners. This looks especially limp since its onsight solo by Alex Honnold. Lol.
James_D - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:
i wonder what "so-called traditional climbing and bouldering are strongly connected to Peak District" is supposed to mean?
nniff - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Dinger)
> [...]
>
> Some dream team,

But they are "uber wads" apparently but, quite frankly, that could mean anything
Dave Todd - on 19 Apr 2010
In reply to nniff:

> But they are "uber wads" apparently but, quite frankly, that could mean anything

'uber wads'...it's an anagram apparently...really means 'sub-wader' which is a wellington boot that comes to just over the knee level...

err...

I think...
Guy Atkinson - on 19 Apr 2010
Ramon Marin - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender:

Just out of interest. If you are a foreign climber, like myself, how are you supposed to know that tickmarks are not allowed on Grit?. I normally go bouldering to Stanage and see tickmarks sometimes (I've never tickmarked myslef). I had no idea it wasn't ethical, and I've been climbing UK for over 8 years. Is there a code of practice that BMC publishes or something?

Many thanks
old skool on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to ramon marin martinez:
Use them by all means. Just make sure you brush them off before you leave. Simple.
Adam Long - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to ramon marin martinez:

Its not that tickmarks are not allowed, its just that people object to the place being left looking like a mess. Plus excessive chalking and ticking on routes is generally associated with excessive top-roping, an ethical misdemeanor in itself, especially on the routes mentioned (all of which have been climbed ground-up). Now throw in the fact that these guys are sponsored heroes paid to come over and climb, and you've got a pretty unimpressive effort.
Michael Ryan - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Adam Long:

I use chalk Adam. I have top roped. I'm not sponsored though.

Am I impressive or unimpressed?

Do I have to sit on the naughty step?
Offwidth - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Not sponsored (never paid to climb)?? Adams right and you probably should be on the naughty step for the post, irrespective of chalk and trs ;-)
Adam Long - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Adam Long)
>

> Do I have to sit on the naughty step?

No, but feel free to join me on the haughty step.
Offwidth - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to ramon marin martinez:

Its in most of the guidebooks and a good summary is here:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Feature.aspx?id=1446
Michael Ryan - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Adam Long:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> No, but feel free to join me on the haughty step.

Well at least they didn't humiliate the assembled climbing talent of the Peaksie District like Toru did last year, Team America: Jorgeson, Honnold and Segal did in 2008....

and let's not forget Antoine Le Menestral who established the UK's first E10 with his solo of Revelations 8a+ at Raven Tor...

That would have been sadder

Offwidth - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Humiliate is an odd description? Most climbers seem pleased to see overseas talents visit the UK and enjoy and do well on our routes in good style... the list is long.
Michael Ryan - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> Humiliate is an odd description? Most climbers seem pleased to see overseas talents visit the UK and enjoy and do well on our routes in good style... the list is long.

Our routes?

Love it. I blame THE MEDIA

irish paul - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Personally Mick, I blame you.
Offwidth - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Whats wrong with 'Our'? Unlike most other countries 99.9% + of UK climbs and problems were first climbed and named by UK climbers. UK climbers decided to preserve a "trad" ethic on most routes (not so common amongst major climbing countries). UK bolted routes, although less numerous and a lesser local focus (and despite our bad weather) have led the world at times.
Michael Ryan - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to irish paul:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com) Personally Mick, I blame you.

Cheers Paul. It's part of my brief. I take the blame so others can hold their heads high.
Michael Ryan - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> UK climbers decided to preserve a "trad" ethic on most routes (not so common amongst major climbing countries).

What's a trad ethic?



irish paul - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Keep up the good work there Mick!
zachary lesch-huie on 20 Apr 2010 - 96-36-116-142.static.hckr.nc.charter.com
A thought from the States: on all topics Grit, you clucking hens have your head well up your arse every time :)

Since the uber-wads probably mean no harm, why not personally and politely instruct them on local norms versus this pitifully passive aggressive Grit-whining?

As for preserving the "natural experience," Big Sender's lost me out in climber-hippie land. Though I don't like them much, a tick mark seems close enough to a well-chalked hold to wonder about the genuine difference. A parking lot and trails seem objectively far worse. If it's Nature you're after Big Sender, it's time to just quit climbing.
Timmd on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to James_D:
> (In reply to Big Sender)
> i wonder what "so-called traditional climbing and bouldering are strongly connected to Peak District" is supposed to mean?

I suppose it could be to do with how aid climbing was the first method which was used to climb a lot of routes, it's not a slight on trad climbing in the Peak District, but more about how you look at things?

Cheers
Tim
SARS on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to zachary lesch-huie:
> Since the uber-wads probably mean no harm, why not personally and politely instruct them on local norms versus this pitifully passive aggressive Grit-whining?

It doesn't seem that complicated really, does it? Do you want to live in a s**t-hole? No probably not. So why leave the place you have just visited (as a tourist btw) as such?

In reply to Big Sender: As an aside, if I could be arsed I would visit some of grit's last great problems and ab down placing chalked handholds in reverse, then sit back with the popcorn and watch the feverish speculation ensue on UKC.
Offwidth - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to zachary lesch-huie:

The official local ethic is to keep tick marks to a minimum and clean them off afterwards. The 'uber-wads' would find this information with fairly little effort (like the link I posted further up the thread), certainly their sponsors would know. The concerns are as much about keeping other user groups in the national park happy (and not generating potential access problems) as for pure love of nature.


johncoxmysteriously - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to zachary lesch-huie:

A thought from the UK: you're an embarrassment to your country. Leaving things as far as possible how you found them isn't exactly revolutionary.

jcm
Roberttaylor - on 20 Apr 2010
Timmd on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to zachary lesch-huie:
> A thought from the States: on all topics Grit, you clucking hens have your head well up your arse every time :)
>
> Since the uber-wads probably mean no harm, why not personally and politely instruct them on local norms versus this pitifully passive aggressive Grit-whining?
>
> As for preserving the "natural experience," Big Sender's lost me out in climber-hippie land. Though I don't like them much, a tick mark seems close enough to a well-chalked hold to wonder about the genuine difference. A parking lot and trails seem objectively far worse. If it's Nature you're after Big Sender, it's time to just quit climbing.

Moving away a bit from how tick marks and chalk squares drawn around holds (though perhaps not in this case) and holds caked in chalk look from an asthetic point of view, another reason for not using a lot of chalk or making tick marks and not drawing shapes around holds to show where they are, is that over time the chalk could alter the PH of any soil it washes into, it's something which is mentioned in the latest BMC guide book to Stanage.

The affect of chalk on soil PH might be very small, but assuming one has already made as much effort as possible in travelling to the crag towards reducing impact on the environment, it's one more thing people can do to lessen climbing's impact on the environment.

Burbage and Stanage are pretty close to Sheffield, so it's possible to catch the train or the bus, or cycle to go climbing there. It's not quite as quick or convenient, but it's not too bad I think, when people can often drive for a couple of hours to go climbing.

Cheers
Tim
Timmd on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to zachary lesch-huie:PS, I think I agree that there's a friendly and a less friendly way of saying the same thing, and a grumbling thread might not be the best way to ask people to leave less chalk beheind. I'm not sure i'd have phrased your post in the same way though. (:-))

Cheers
Tim
ads.ukclimbing.com
Micky J - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Tom Briggs - Jagged Globe: They must have been to Wilton aswell !
Timmd on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to SARS:
> (In reply to zachary lesch-huie)
> [...]
>
> It doesn't seem that complicated really, does it? Do you want to live in a s**t-hole? No probably not. So why leave the place you have just visited (as a tourist btw) as such?

If thier local ethics don't see liberal chalk use and tick marks as a problem they might not have thought much about it?

I'm pleased they got to enjoy some sunny weather while they were climbing over here in the Peak District, it would have made for good climbing to not have it freezing but cold enough for good friction. It may not be good for soil PH long term, but the chalk will wash away eventually, I can remember seeing parts of Bell Hagg above Manchester road totally caked in chalk when I was a teenager and the chalk dissapeared in the end. I think some people might have maybe got the wrong end of the stick a little bit, in talking about having so much chalk that it doesn't wash off, it might just take a while and some wind and rain for it to shift.

Cheers
Tim
Timmd on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to zachary lesch-huie)
> [...]

> Burbage and Stanage are pretty close to Sheffield, so it's possible to catch the train or the bus, or cycle to go climbing there. It's not quite as quick or convenient, but it's not too bad I think, when people can often drive for a couple of hours to go climbing.
>
> Cheers
> Tim

Oops, that should read not quite as quick or convenient as going by car.

Tim

whispering nic - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to snoop6060:
I spent several minutes thinking a helicam was some sort of giant protection device for oversized off-widths...
Jonny2vests - on 20 Apr 2010
In reply to zachary lesch-huie:

> Since the uber-wads probably mean no harm, why not personally and politely instruct them on local norms versus this pitifully passive aggressive Grit-whining?

So its our job to hold their hands is it? They cant even do a basic bit of fact finding?
johncoxmysteriously - on 21 Apr 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:

What's so distasteful about this thread is the notion shared by so many that not making a 'kin mess is some kind of weird local ethic. WTF is the matter with these people? Can't they just go and drop crisp packets in towns instead?

jcm
Offwidth - on 21 Apr 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Very true... 'leave no trace' is a pretty common climbing ethic worldwide for good reasons. However just to help people the BMC do circulate local reminders (the ten commandments are on my mouse mat at work).
Lurkio - on 21 Apr 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to zachary lesch-huie)
>
> [...]
>
> So its our job to hold their hands is it? They cant even do a basic bit of fact finding?

Yes, we should have a "Crag Ambassador" stationed at each crag:

"Good morning gentlemen, ladies. Where are you from? Ah, you may not be aware of our local ethics, please take a leaflet.... And by the way it's Peak, not Peaks. Have a nice day!"

=D
Alex Messenger, BMC - on 21 Apr 2010
In reply to Lurkio:


We were there n sat, it looked a right mess. PS. I'm short of a prize letter for this issue's Summit letters page. So if anyone fancies a rant...it's summit@thebmc.co.uk. Send a pic in too.

Cheers

Alex.
Jonny2vests - on 21 Apr 2010
In reply to Lurkio:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Yes, we should have a "Crag Ambassador" stationed at each crag:
>
I wonder how much it would take to persuade Al Evans to come back...

Franz on 21 Apr 2010 - 212.243.221.4 whois?
Dear all

Cheers for posting and talking - that thread grows fast and found the way to me - now back at the office. I would like to make a statment from the Mammut-side:

It's definitely in our sense too to not leave the crags in a mess, to take back home litter and waste... but obviously we didn't brush off properly the chalk from some routes mentioned obove.
Excuse me for not recognizing that problem early enough. Now there is someone on the way to clean our chalk and to ease the thread. As soon as I have more infos I'll post it here.

This way I hope to give back what the grit and this amazing area gave to us. We really enjoyed staying there.


Cheers

Franz
Head of Sponsoring

franksnb - on 22 Apr 2010
In reply to Big Sender: I am confused, are we saying some people draw around holds with blackboard chalk so they know where they are?!

what's the point in climbing outside? they might as well be inside with brightly coloured plastic.

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