/ Ondra spotted

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Nez - on 28 Apr 2010
While going up to malham last evening Adam Ondra was walking back down. Apparantly he's over for a week and camping in malham. Should be interesting to see how he get's on with the Steve Mac super routes.
Tim Broughtonshaw on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez: wonder how many 9a's he can tick in a week......
Jonny2vests - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:
> While going up to malham last evening Adam Ondra was walking back down. Apparantly he's over for a week and camping in malham. Should be interesting to see how he get's on with the Steve Mac super routes.


I reckon it would be more interesting to throw him at the Vice. Probably unlikely though.
Adam Lincoln - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

Really? ;-)
portlandclimber - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez: if he is there, my money is on him not climbing any of mclures routes.

(that could turn out to be a poor prediction from me)
philipivan - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

1/10

really?
Tyler - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to philipivan:

Yes, really.

This place is odd at times.
Serpico on 28 Apr 2010 - 92.24.209.108 whois?
In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to philipivan)
> .
>
> This place is odd at times.

Only during the hours of daylight.


...and then again at night.

Tim Broughtonshaw on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln: i did hear a rumor myself to be honest. Not verifying this posting but it doesnt sound unlikely to me....
andy farnell - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Tim Bertenshaw: Has the G-man been able to confirm this?

Andy F
mike71 - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to philipivan: Cant see why not.
Paul Crusher R - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to andy farnell: Mr buchanan has just facbooked a photo by mobile of the man himself, technology eh.
philipivan - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Paul R:

Awesome. I forsee a very long ukc news thread sometime soon :-)
Serpico on 28 Apr 2010 - 92.24.209.108 whois?
Tim Broughtonshaw on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Paul R: aye just seen the photo it is confirmed. Believe he is beneath the Maximum in that gap on the catwalk.

awesome!

Cheers
tim
Phil79 - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

I'm reliably told he's presently working Overshadow. Should be interesting!
Quiddity - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

Fantastic! Anyone know if he's ticked anything yet?
Adam Lincoln - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

It is true! About time...
andy farnell - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez: Let the crushing commence.

Andy F
Adam Lincoln - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Nez)
> [...]
>
>
> I reckon it would be more interesting to throw him at the Vice.

Why?
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andy farnell - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Nez)
> [...]
>
>
> I reckon it would be more interesting to throw him at the Vice. Probably unlikely though.

Why?

To see how quickly he could downclimb it. In the rain. At night. In flip flops. When drunk.

Andy F
In reply to andy farnell: Great stuff. Good luck to Adam, hope the sun shines and cool breezes flow.

Important facts for our local correspondents to discover: a) is he old enough to get served in the pub? (I had a cracking night there once, we ended up with a bottle of red wine lying down at the top of the crag trying to drunkenly remember whether we were in a clint or a grike...). And b) what sort of tent does the best sport climber in the world have? I bet its a Decathlon pop-up, and just like everyone else he can never work out how to get it back in the bag.
Paul Crusher R - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to TobyA: I was wondering if he's had a spell off yet with the Pendle Witches.
R8JimBob88 - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to TobyA: Good luck to him, but more so when he goes for his post climb pint
The Pylon King on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

Who? never heard of her
griffer boy - on 28 Apr 2010
2 redpoints on overshadow but as yet no crush, one on sight attemp at cry freedom, fell off level with the top overhand before the final hard move, this took him 2! attempts to do the move (must be hard), stripped it on the way down. He seems to be made from rubber. good to watch
Tim Broughtonshaw on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to griffer boy: Punter, bet he failed on free and even easier :)
Chris Shorter - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Nez)
> [...]
>
>
> I reckon it would be more interesting to throw him at the Vice. Probably unlikely though.

Have you seen what there is by way of cracks on Czech Sandstone? Plenty of Vices and more there!
griffer boy - on 28 Apr 2010
he probably warmed up on overnite, so the true malham polish as yet has not been experienced
Jonny2vests - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

For a laugh? Try not to take it too seriously Adam, I was being flippant.
Jonny2vests - on 28 Apr 2010
In reply to andy farnell:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> Why?
>
> To see how quickly he could downclimb it. In the rain. At night. In flip flops. When drunk.

Now you're talking!

supos - on 29 Apr 2010
Bulls Crack - on 29 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

I think he's calling off there on the way to Lumbutts Quarry near Todmorden.
mark s - on 29 Apr 2010
Looks like he has stalkers.wonder how many people are going to crags just to see him?
neilh - on 29 Apr 2010
I am amazed that this is not headline news, this guy is awesme.
@ndyM@rsh@ll - on 29 Apr 2010
In reply to neilh: I'd guess they're waiting for him to do a bit more before doing the article?
Dan_Carroll - on 29 Apr 2010
what's the deal then.. is it raining today? Is he back at Malham? The fact he's here and trying Mclure's routes is definitely news in itself. UKC should set up a BBC sport style live minute by minute report on his efforts!
Rich Kirby - on 29 Apr 2010
In reply to mark s:
> Looks like he has stalkers.wonder how many people are going to crags just to see him?

Well yeh I did today, although its a usual Thursday haunt. Its not often you get to see someone absolutely wollopping hard 8's on sight and being very close to 9a+!

Misha - on 30 Apr 2010
Get him on the grit...
Jon Read - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Misha:
Why? He's on holiday, and clearly wants a world-class challenge. Besides I'm sure he's done enough big bold sandstone back home to warrant trad-wad points.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Michael Ryan - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Misha:

> Get him on the grit...

<<<<tired old cliché alert>>>

ali k on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Rich Kirby:

rich, what 8s has he onsighted?...apart from raindogs?
zoolook? GBH? predator? the groove!!??
ali k on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to ali k:
so i just read on keith's blog that he's done zoolook and overnite O/S.
anything else?
Kevin Avery - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to ali k:

Apparently he onsighted Predator, Austrian Oak, Magnetic Fields, Energy Vampire and then Groove into Free and Easy into Breach yesterday as well as having 3 redpoints on Overshadow!!!!!

He's no punter.....
Kevin Avery - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well said Mick
JSA - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Kevin Avery:

Has he been to Kilnsey yet?
ali k on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Kevin Avery:

WTF! how is that possible?!!
he can't have had any rests between routes/redpoints to fit all that into one day!! super impressive

i've seen him climb out here in Spain many times, onsighting 8b's for a warm-up and redpointing Golpe etc, but until you see or hear about him on routes that you know well it's hard to put it into any kind of context. the boy is incredible...

Rich Kirby - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to ali k:
> (In reply to Rich Kirby)
>
> rich, what 8s has he onsighted?...apart from raindogs?
> zoolook? GBH? predator? the groove!!??

Ali, as Kev's post. See UKB for further detail.

ali k on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Rich Kirby:

f*ck me! máquina! i think i'll give him the predator and energy vampire ticks...but only cos it's him.

looks like he'll be doing everyone's lifetime ticklist in a week!
Cardi - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez: Get him down to Pembroke to crush the classic E8's and 9's!
Keith Sharples - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Kevin Avery:

Some list as you say - more than a year's work for most of us, and a flippin' gooooood year at that. More significant than Elvis walking back into town I'd say!

Interesting to speculate his game plan. Finish off at Malham today then a rest day(?) before Kilnsey Sun, Mon then possible Snor on Tuesday before flying home?

hexcentric - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

Harumph! Get him to my local area to climb something with an E in the grade!
Jamie B - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to those trying to point Ondra at hard UK trad:

Dont you think it's great than some foreign waddage can see UK climbing as being a bit more than hard E-grades? We also have world-class sports venues with signature testpieces that deserve repeating; it'll also be interesting to see how UK grades stack up against continental ones.
Rich Kirby - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to ali k:
> (In reply to Rich Kirby)
>
> f*ck me! máquina! i think i'll give him the predator and energy vampire ticks...but only cos it's him.
>
When he did Groove>Free n easy>Breach(late in day) it was pissing down and the big break at top of Breach was goppin wet. Just wiped his hands on pants and nonchalantly made the remaining wet moves to the belay after 50 odd metres of climbing!


hexcentric - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Hmmm nope, can't quite see what you're getting at.

What I want to know is, what's he done on rhyolite?
Rich Kirby - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Keith Sharples:
> (In reply to Kevin Avery)
>
>
>
> Interesting to speculate his game plan. Finish off at Malham today then a rest day(?) before Kilnsey Sun, Mon then possible Snor on Tuesday before flying home?

He is resting today & keen for Overshadow on sat which I'm sure he will do. I doubt he'd bother with Tor - I mean why would you;-) He was interested in Dunne's thing straight up cove? We explained the history and he seemed intrigued.

Eagle River - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I know some of those comments are tongue in cheek but it's pretty amusing that some people genuinely think that a teenager climbing at the current worldwide physical limit of what's acheivable is not impressive enough and he should instead go and tick some E8s.

Ha!

I've been very interested to see how Steve Mac's routes are compared to the international standard because I've a sneaking suspicion he has been a bit modest and perhaps shown caution and undergraded somewhat.
Serpico on 30 Apr 2010 - 92.29.224.232 whois?
In reply to Rich Kirby:
Forget all this nonsense about what he should and shouldn't be climbing, what's he said about the quality of the climbing he's done?
How does the UK's finest sport crag stack up against the rest of the world?
Ewan Russell - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:
I agree it is very impressive all this bolt clipping stuff. However I would prefer him to shake the trad climbing world to its core and crush numerous e8-e10/11?. Trad is the british style, long live the king.
Monk - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to The third:
> (In reply to Nez)
> I agree it is very impressive all this bolt clipping stuff. However I would prefer him to shake the trad climbing world to its core and crush numerous e8-e10/11?. Trad is the british style, long live the king.

Wow. Us Brits really are miserable sods.

When Steve McLure climbs these uber-hard routes, everyone is in awe, and people state that it is a shame that the UK is a sportclimbing backwater that none of the international greats will visit to get the 2nd ascents (let's face it - there are very few, if any, UK climbers who would be capable). Then when one of the greats arrive, there are a bunch of whingers moaning that he isn't climbing trad!

ads.ukclimbing.com
Serpico on 30 Apr 2010 - 92.29.224.232 whois?
In reply to Monk:
> (In reply to The third)
> [...]
>
> Wow. Us Brits really are miserable sods.
>
> When Steve McLure climbs these uber-hard routes, everyone is in awe, and people state that it is a shame that the UK is a sportclimbing backwater that none of the international greats will visit to get the 2nd ascents (let's face it - there are very few, if any, UK climbers who would be capable). Then when one of the greats arrive, there are a bunch of whingers moaning that he isn't climbing trad!

To be fair he's only been climbing a few months so is probably unaware that every few years we get strong foreign wads coming over and tearing through the trad grades, but that we've been waiting for decades for someone to come and give our sport test pieces a go.
robin mueller - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Rich Kirby:

> He is resting today & keen for Overshadow on sat which I'm sure he will do. I doubt he'd bother with Tor - I mean why would you;-) He was interested in Dunne's thing straight up cove? We explained the history and he seemed intrigued.

Has no one told him about Violent New Breed at Giggleswick? Possibly the world's hardest move on a sport route, and the UK's only other 9a+. It's just 17min drive from Malham... This is the big one, get him on it!
Quiddity - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to The third:

> I agree it is very impressive all this bolt clipping stuff. However I would prefer him to shake the trad climbing world to its core and crush numerous e8-e10/11?. Trad is the british style, long live the king.

this place is truly depressing sometimes.
BigJames on 30 Apr 2010 - host217-36-211-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com
In reply to Kevin Avery:
> (In reply to ali k)
>
> Apparently he onsighted Predator, Austrian Oak, Magnetic Fields, Energy Vampire and then Groove into Free and Easy into Breach yesterday as well as having 3 redpoints on Overshadow!!!!!
>
> He's no punter.....


Ok forgetting for a minute the level of skill it takes to even make it up these routes, the fact that he can do all this in a day must take such a ridiculous super-human level of stamina, I am in awe.
BigJames on 30 Apr 2010 - host217-36-211-234.in-addr.btopenworld.com
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
> (In reply to The third)
>
> [...]
>
> this place is truly depressing sometimes.


What he said, respect where respect is due, this guy is a legend before he's even left his teenage years for crying out loud.
In reply to robin mueller:

> It's just 17min drive from Malham...

Maybe Adam drives like he climbs, in which case it would be about 12 minutes... :-)

BTW - have you been timing it? That's a bizarrely specific timing!
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Serpico:

No foriegners have 'torn through british trad'. A few have matched current levels, but noone has come over and onsighted E8s.


I am very interested to see how hard he can technically move, i'm even more interested to see how hard he can climb.
robin mueller - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to robin mueller)
>
> [...]
>
> Maybe Adam drives like he climbs, in which case it would be about 12 minutes... :-)
>
> BTW - have you been timing it? That's a bizarrely specific timing!

No, it comes from Googlemaps:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=B6480&daddr=Malham+Cove&hl=en&...
andy farnell - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko: Have you not had internet access for the last couple of years?

Ondra's tick list is very impressive. AFAIK none of the 8b's have been onsighted before. It'd be interesting to know what grade he thinks Cry Freedon is.... World's first 8c?

Andy F
ali k on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to The third (and the rest):

Adam Ondra is a world class SPORT CLIMBER. Probably the best in the world. As far as I know he has never done a trad route in his life. Why would he start now? Just to please some British armchair critics?

I would hazard a guess that the reason you're all pining for him to do some trad is because you've never done a days sport climbing in your life, so have no concept of how hard this boy is climbing, simply because the reports don't come with an attached E grade.

They are two different disciplines. Just accept it.

As Serpico said, travelling foreign climbers have come over many times and gone home with seriously impressive trad tick lists. But nobody on the sport front for a long long time.

In one day he on-sighted 4 8b's and had several redpoints on a 9a+. Stick that in your grade conversion table and see what it equates to in E numbers! I am pretty sure that if he chose to, and had the right head, Ondra could completely destroy the UK trad scene. He is more than pysically capable. But right now he's pushing the limits of SPORT CLIMBING. Accept it.
Rant over
Serpico on 30 Apr 2010 - 92.29.224.232 whois?
In reply to Fr Manko:
> (In reply to Serpico)
>
> No foriegners have 'torn through british trad'. A few have matched current levels, but noone has come over and onsighted E8s.
>
Honnold's (first) flash of Gaia? no chalk, but he'd seen it in the vid?


>
> I am very interested to see how hard he can technically move, i'm even more interested to see how hard he can climb.

What's the difference franco? Bore us with your wisdom.
...but be quick it's almost time for you to be banned again.
Alun - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
> No foriegners have 'torn through british trad'.

Yes they have, get your facts straight. Off the tope of my head, in the last few years we Jorgeson, Honnold and Segal repeat almost every hard route on the grit, those two Australians that stayed for a while and repeated a hat-full of E8s and 9s, Sonnie Trotter made it his mission to repeat Rhapsody, and Lisa Rands headpointed Gaia.

By contrast, the only attention British sport climbing has had is a flying visit by Chris Sharma one wet afternoon.

The fact that Ondra is in Britain for an extended trip purely for sport climbing is brilliant, and I find the snide "but why doesn't he try any real routes" totally pathetic. It's high time Britain's sport climbing (and the efforts of its protagonists) got some attention.
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to ali k:


I realise on paper he's regularly onsighting the equivilant of E9. I'm not telling him what he should do, just that i'd be very interested to see if he could convert that to onsighting E9s. There are a few people in the world operating at his sport level, there is noone who has ever onsighted E9, hence i'd quite like to see someone (shama, ondra, Ste Mac etc..) come and onsight one.

I have no doubt there are people physically capable, just that only a few who were 'pyhsically capable' have tried to onsight E9s, and interestingly didn't manage it.
Alun - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Alun:
Ah yes, I see. Fr Manko = Franco.

That explains the idiotic comments.
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Alun:

I didn't say 'why doesn't he try any real routes'.

And I think you should get your facts right. None of the americans onsighted E8s or E9s. (E8 flash) I'll forgive you if you don't understand the difference between onsights and headpoint, but repeating grit E9s I would describe as 'tearing it up'.
Darren Jackson - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Alun:
>
>
> Yes they have, get your facts straight. Off the tope of my head, in the last few years we Jorgeson, Honnold and Segal repeat almost every hard route on the grit, those two Australians that stayed for a while and repeated a hat-full of E8s and 9s, Sonnie Trotter made it his mission to repeat Rhapsody, and Lisa Rands headpointed Gaia.

This lad didn't do too bad either:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49092

Pesky kids.
andy farnell - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
> (In reply to ali k)
>
>
> There are a few people in the world operating at his sport level, there is noone who has ever onsighted E9, hence i'd quite like to see someone (shama, ondra, Ste Mac etc..) come and onsight one.
>

Wrong. E9 has been onsighted.

Andy F
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to andy farnell:


Care to explain...
andy farnell - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko: No.

Andy F
Alun - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Alun:
Oh yeah and Nico and Sean from Belgium came over a couple of years and crushed Gogarth's horror shows, how could I forget.
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to andy farnell:

Ok, so noone has onsighted E9, apart from your mate's ballpoint of the parthian shot...Or is that E8 now?
Alun - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
> I'll forgive you if you don't understand the difference between onsights and headpoint, but repeating grit E9s I would describe as 'tearing it up'.

LOL you're a card Franco, I'll give you that!
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Alun:


The hardest thing onsighted at gogarth was done my Neil Dickson. I have no doubt that there are foriegners coming over here and climbing as well as our chaps, and maybe that there are also some guys who could climb harder, but this myth that UK climbing is a load of easy rubbish and the europeans could piss all over us at the drop of a hat, they just choose not to, is a saga of biblical proportions.
Darren Jackson - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
>
> but this myth that UK climbing is a load of easy rubbish and the europeans could piss all over us at the drop of a hat, they just choose not to...

My mate Dave told me that he once watched a specialist video that featured europeans pissing all over a Brit...

> ... is a saga of biblical proportions.

!?!?!
Dan_Carroll - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Alun:
> (In reply to Alun)
> Ah yes, I see. Fr Manko = Franco.
>
> That explains the idiotic comments.

which idiotic comments?
davidbeynon - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Darren Jackson:

> > ... is a saga of biblical proportions.
>
> !?!?!

It all makes sense if you head into the mountains and take the stone tablets.
vertigo - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to:

Wasn't this thread originally about Adam Ondra? Get a life people.
robin mueller - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Alun:
> (In reply to Fr Manko)
> [...]
> in the last few years we Jorgeson, Honnold and Segal repeat almost every hard route on the grit

No, that may be the impression created by the TEAM AMERICA coverage in the media, but it's not really true. They did lots of the classic routes of yesteryear in good style, plus two (?) of the more high profile harder routes (one E10 - now E8, and one E11 - but went off route). There are still a good number of hard grit routes that have been waiting years for a repeat - eg. Superstition, merely E8 but resisted the Americans...

But this is beside the point. We all know Ondra would easily waltz up most of these if he had a mind to, and it wouldn't be news to anyone except a few deluded Brits. The point is...

GIGGLESWICK
VIOLENT NEW BREED
GIGGLESWICK
VIOLENT NEW BREED
Quiddity - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:

Please can we keep this thread to rolling coverage of Adam Ondra crushage and related discussion, for those who are actually interested in possibly the hardest route in the UK getting repeated by possibly the hardest sport climber in the world.

Franco, can you take your parochial trad-is-better-than-sport, our-climbers-are-better-than-your-climbers wank to another thread so that the rest of us can ignore it please.
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

It is interesting to see the psychological links people make with no evidence between what I say and what they want to hear.


I didn't say he shouldn't be trying sport, as that is what he enjoys, but I did say that it would be interesting to see him try some trad onsighting. In the usual 'sport climbers could crush any trad' mentality, you responded appropriately, but could not single out a single example of a nails European sport climber coming over and pushy trad onsighting up a notch or two. Hence now you collectively respond with insults, nonsense and expulsion of the discussion from the thread.
crozzly - on 30 Apr 2010
I would really like to see Ondra have a go on Hubble, its only had a few ascents and it would be good to hear how the grade compares :)
davidbeynon - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
> (In reply to Fr Manko)
>
> Please can we keep this thread to rolling coverage of Adam Ondra crushage and related discussion, for those who are actually interested in possibly the hardest route in the UK getting repeated by possibly the hardest sport climber in the world.

Do you think it's going to happen? The weather forecast looks crap for climbing until tuesday.
Quiddity - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:

it's because trad climbing is utterly irrelevant to what is going on. As pointed out further up thread, Ondra is a SPORT climber and he has come here to try our hardest SPORT routes which have been waiting years for repeats.

Personally I'd find it pretty tedious if he spent his time here and his talent wombling up trad routes that aren't really his discipline just to fulfil a willy waving 'what if?' speculation from UKC. A number of foreign wads have come over in recent memory and had a go at various trad testpieces in a variety of styles - did you not get the memo?

He has until Tuesday to tick what took Steve Mac 42 days of effort. Don't you think that is exciting? I do.
Ewan Russell - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:
ha! Sorry someone told me on facebook I was getting ripped apart on ukc, thought I better re appear!
Just to clear up, huge respect to adam ondra he is a machine. As far as I can tell he is the best climber in the world currently on bolts. However I don't care for bolts, it's a manufactured form of climbing(which has its place in Britan and abroad) but for me is not the real deal(your welcome to disagree with me).
when you say "When Steve McLure climbs these uber-hard routes, everyone is in awe, and people state that it is a shame that the UK is a sportclimbing backwater that none of the international greats will visit to get the 2nd ascents (let's face it - there are very few, if any, UK climbers who would be capable). Then when one of the greats arrive, there are a bunch of whingers moaning that he isn't climbing trad!"
I haven't been calling for him to come over here, doubtless most british climbers don't care less. The sport climb community of britian fair enough, they must be estatic. I hope he rips all your lines to shreds and tells you its piss(or whatever self-amusing varient you fancy)
End of the day I don't connect with sport climbing in a massive way, why would I feel inspired by someone doing sport climbing???
Also I have been climbing for 15 years+ technically but really only in the last 5 took it seriously. Also I have not climbed M14+, but have clipped bolts.

All the best to ondra, The world's best climber! (I bet you would cruise most stuff at gogarth, as a warm up then you could pop down to lpt to do what you really enjoy)
Michael Gordon - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
> A few have matched current levels, but noone has come over and onsighted E8s.

No, but one or two have come very close. Especially considering the fact that these ascents have been on flying visits, its extremely impressive.

Quiddity - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to davidbeynon:

I'm eagerly anticipating finding out, though it'd be a shame if he got let down by the British weather, for sure...
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Exactly. Mightily impressive, but it goes to show trad isn't a piece of piss.

If E8 for a F9a cliber is like E1 for an E5 climber (which some on this thread seem intent on believing) then they would not have failed. I know I wouldn't fall off an E1 onsight if my supply of free shoes rested on it.
Monk - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> Exactly. Mightily impressive, but it goes to show trad isn't a piece of piss.
>
> If E8 for a F9a cliber is like E1 for an E5 climber (which some on this thread seem intent on believing) then they would not have failed. I know I wouldn't fall off an E1 onsight if my supply of free shoes rested on it.

The difference is, that 9a and E8 are not on the same scale. That is why Ondra onsights 8b+ or whatever it is - that is comparable to your E1/5 analogy. The difference with trad is the danger. An onsight of an E8 or E9 would give him major credit in the UK, but would not matter a jot to people in Europe. Repeating a 9a+ will mean something to euro climbers. As this guy gets his livelihood from those euro climbers, what do you think his incentive would be. Not to mention that failure to onsight the E9 could be severe injury that would wreck his career.

Monk - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to The third:

A fair enough opinion, but if that is your opinion, why did you even bother to post on this thread? As you know that you are not interested in sport, why click on a thread about a top sport climber?
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Monk:

F8b+ is equivalent to about E8 is it not?

I see your point about how his main goal is to satisfy euro climbers/sponsors, hence why I said I don't expect him to get on the trad. If he's trying sport style E9s (F8b style of climbing with big safe falls) then he wont hurt himself though. Hopefully he'll get inspired though :)
ads.ukclimbing.com
ksjs - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko: am i the only one who sees something pathetic in the often tabloid-style responses to Franco's posts? the facts (what is written) dont actually matter or get ignored in favour of giving Franco a hard time. sorry to go off-topic but...
Serpico on 30 Apr 2010 - 92.29.224.232 whois?
In reply to Fr Manko:
> (In reply to Monk)
>
>
> I see your point about how his main goal is to satisfy euro climbers/sponsors

Has anyone considered that his main goal may be to enjoy himself doing something he clearly loves?
Bulls Crack - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to robin mueller:
> (In reply to Alun)
> [...]
>
> No, that may be the impression created by the TEAM AMERICA coverage in the media, but it's not really true. They did lots of the classic routes of yesteryear in good style, plus two (?) of the more high profile harder routes (one E10 - now E8, and one E11 - but went off route). There are still a good number of hard grit routes that have been waiting years for a repeat - eg. Superstition, merely E8 but resisted the Americans...
>
> But this is beside the point. We all know Ondra would easily waltz up most of these if he had a mind to, and it wouldn't be news to anyone except a few deluded Brits. The point is...
>
> GIGGLESWICK
> VIOLENT NEW BREED
> GIGGLESWICK
> VIOLENT NEW BREED

He might just fall about laughing when he sees the crag though! ;-)
Quiddity - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to ksjs:

It's because the subject of the thread is actually of interest to many people who don't want to see it become another 200+ post epic full of Franco's willy waving. If people are jumping to conclusions about what Franco's agenda is, it's because he's still singing largely the same song and we've heard it all before.

The OP is about something unusual and actually exciting happening RIGHT NOW in UK sport climbing and already some on UKC are whining about how he should be trying X style or Y style and how sport climbing is 'not really climbing'.

It's utterly tedious and not a little bit depressing.
ali k on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
> (In reply to ali k)

> I realise on paper he's regularly onsighting the equivilant of E9. I'm not telling him what he should do, just that i'd be very interested to see if he could convert that to onsighting E9s.

yeh me too, but unfortunately it's not going to happen, is it? The people you quoted as operating at his sport level are the best sport climbers in the world BECAUSE they don't do trad. They don't waste days bumbling around on routes well below their physical level which only require large balls to get up. They don't risk injury (and the months/years out of climbing which would result) for the sake of 10 or 15 metres of rock just to get an E grade for boldness. They push their bodies to the physical limit day in and day out. (And before you jump on the 'trad is best' band wagon and start ripping into me, i'm not denigrating trad climbing; i'm a trad climber first and foremost - see my profile)

> I have no doubt there are people physically capable, just that only a few who were 'pyhsically capable' have tried to onsight E9s, and interestingly didn't manage it.

like who? who's tried to O/S E9? you mean Ste on that route in Wales, which was wet?

> If E8 for a F9a cliber is like E1 for an E5 climber (which some on this thread seem intent on believing) then they would not have failed. I know I wouldn't fall off an E1 onsight if my supply of free shoes rested on it.

The problem here is that you only have grit routes to base this assumption on, because it's all the foreigners ever do when they come here. These routes by nature are bold, smeary, technical, unpredictable and, yes, technically quite easy! I imagine it would be a different story if Sharma/Ondra/other sport wads were to attempt an O/S of say The Big Issue, or Divided Years (or possibly even Rhapsody). Something steep and relatively well protected. I can't imagine they'd have too many problems with those routes.

Unfortunately I can't see it happening with these guys in the near future so we'll have to wait for another Euro wonder-kid to come along who, conveniently for UKC users, likes UK trad. Maybe we should start harassing those 8 year old's parents and try to get them away from bouldering and sport climbing and more interested in grit or gogarth chop routes...
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to ali k:

It's depressing that something so idiotic, as people thinking that these guys could onsight things like rhapsody, is becoming a cliche on ukc. Rhapsody is F8c climbing, before you put the draws in.

The americans tried to onsight parthian shot, and didn't. Steve Maclure tried to onsight an E9, and didn't. Nico Faveress is a total beast, fell off an stiff E6. Nico has climbed a lot in the UK and hasn't onsighted harder than E7.

What's stevie haston tried? He's done a lot of trad and never onsighted E8, despite climbing 9a. Rich Simpson?

Get this silly idea out of your head that euro climbers are a different species.
Kid Spatula - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

It didn't exactly take Steve McClure many goes to nail Rhapsody though.......
overdrawnboy - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
> (In reply to ksjs)
>
>>
> The OP is about something unusual and actually exciting happening RIGHT NOW in UK sport climbing and already some on UKC are whining about how he should be trying X style or Y style and how sport climbing is 'not really climbing'.
>
If I could I'd try and see him climbing,it should be a pleasure to see someone at the top of any sport, he might bust a tendon next week and never be that good again. Enjoy it while he's here. Were these people whining that Usain Bolt wasn't running the Wasdale Fell Race when he was tearing up tracks last summer.
hexcentric - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to all:

What's happened, we seem to have hit a lull...keep it going fellas, dig deep!
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to overdrawnboy:


Was I complaining? Sport climbers must not be able to get it up or something, they seem to have some proper complexes about people talking about other forms of climbing...
Ewan Russell - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
er ban bolts?
ali k on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to all)
>
> What's happened, we seem to have hit a lull...keep it going fellas, dig deep!

I can't be arsed. Franco you know exactly what I meant in my post as you said the exact same thing a few posts up

> If he's trying sport style E9s (F8b style of climbing with big safe falls) then he wont hurt himself though. Hopefully he'll get inspired though :)

If you choose to take it up as an argument then that's up to you.
JimmyKay - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

I don't give a pap about anyones opinion in this thread but I would very much like to know what Ondra is doing today. So if anyone knows, please update :-)
robin mueller - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Jay_Kay:

He's having a rest day, so we're told.
JimmyKay - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to robin mueller:

Cheers!
Dan_Carroll - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Jay_Kay:

the word is he's resting today then likely back to Malham to try Overshadow again tomorrow.
Andy Cairns on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
> (In reply to ali k)
>

> Nico Faveress is a total beast, fell off an stiff E6.

Presumably that's the one that has only ever had one onsight ascent? By a foreigner?? In spite of a lot of attempts by British climbers who onsight a lot harder than E6?

Cheers
Andy

Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Andy Cairns:

If 'a lot harder than E6' means E7, then you're right. By the shear volume of good climbers who have failed on it, it probably should be upgraded to E7, but even then, Nico, who should find E10s a walk in the park, fell off it.
Pittsburgh Windmill on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to

If anyone mentioning trad cared to read one of the recent interviews Adam has given they would know he has no interest whatsoever in Trad climbing. None.

I also doubt he climbs to appease anyone but himself going by what the lad himself says.
In reply to Fr Manko:
> (In reply to ali k)
>
> It's depressing that something so idiotic, as people thinking that these guys could onsight things like rhapsody, is becoming a cliche on ukc. Rhapsody is F8c climbing, before you put the draws in.
>
> The americans tried to onsight parthian shot, and didn't. Steve Maclure tried to onsight an E9, and didn't. Nico Faveress is a total beast, fell off an stiff E6. Nico has climbed a lot in the UK and hasn't onsighted harder than E7.
>
> What's stevie haston tried? He's done a lot of trad and never onsighted E8, despite climbing 9a. Rich Simpson?
>
> Get this silly idea out of your head that euro climbers are a different species.

A reasonable point, except that Ondra is climbing a full two grades harder than all the people you mentioned...
ads.ukclimbing.com
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Very true I suppose. But perhaps instead of saying 'ondra would crush everything in the UK', we should say that he could probably equal current limits and then push them a bit further, but he's not going to onsight Rhapsody. Hence why I said i'd be interested to see what he could do.
Keith Sharples - on 30 Apr 2010
dear oh dear, another thread lost at sea.

Dudes; climbing is a broad church - let us enjoy the diversity whilst we can. Debates on trad v's headpointing v's sport v's bouldering, v's DWS v's winter, v's mountaineering might be interesting (on a dark winter night after training) but - if I might be so bold to suggest - it isn't the point here.

Ondra is (in all probability) the world's finest sport climber but in this instance here's 'just' a climber over here doing what climbers do, climbing. He seemed the real deal when I spoke to him and his mate on the Catwalk on Wednesday; interested in the history, the routes, the climbers and the most of all the climbing. He wasn't here as part of a circus, just him and another guy - two climbers, on a climbing trip. I wish him well; hopefully he'll head off on Tuesday with positive vibes about sport climbing here in the UK. Not sure what he'd think if he could see some of the posts here mind...

A final point which I can't let go without passing comment on though. Our recent (and this is from my perspective - sic) history is full of examples of Johnny Foreigner coming over to the UK and have a blast, challenging norms and setting new standards – ref:
# Hot Henry in the early 70's
# Antoine Le Menestral soloing Revelations
# JB Tribout repeating Cry Freedom in 4 days after mark Leach took 40+ days
# Jean Pierre Bouvier redpointing Tequila Mockingbird and re-naming it
# Stephan Glowacz on-sight/flash ascent of Strawberries
# A headlight ascent of Parthian by our cousin from Os
# Team USA on the Grit a winter or two back
# The young Japanese climber last summer daring to venture forth onto hard routes when the temp was 10degs+

And lest we forget and think we're rubbish, we Brits have a habit of turning the screws overseas a bit sometimes - ref:
# Livesey’s visits to France in the 70's
# Moffatt's infamous 1st visit to Fontainebleau
# Moon's ascent of Agincourt at Buoux
# McClure’s understated performances on the Petzl rock trips
# Haston's activities over the years to say nothing of his current purple patch...

The common tread - all climbers on climbing trips, climbing - bring it on!



andy farnell - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:
> (In reply to ali k)
>
>>
> What's stevie haston tried? He's done a lot of trad and never onsighted E8, despite climbing 9a. Rich Simpson?
>
FYI Frwanko, Steve Haston onsighted The Greenspit, which was 8b/+ on gear, which easily equates to E8/9.

Andy F
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to andy farnell:

*flashed with pre placed draws.
ian vincent - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Keith Sharples:

"dear oh dear, another thread lost at sea" too right!

Ondra comes and does more at Malham in a day than pretty much anyone else has done in their whole career and all it stimulates is a bout of bitching from the "custodians of the british trad tradition".

The guy is awesome, we should show him (and the climbing he does) some respect.
popebenedictus - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Keith Sharples:

Well said. Its aboutthe climbing not the numbers but then it seems from this thread that Fr Manko is a bit grade obsessed.
ksjs - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick: not sure i agree, i get the impression that its seen as the right thing to do i.e. give him short shrift. not sure what he said was anything different to what others (who didnt get as sharp a response) have queried on the same thread. anyway, lets not continue with this as id rather be inspired and amazed by reading about Adam's monstrous efforts.
Ewan Russell - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to popebenedictus:
surely the sport climbers are grade obsessed as well? Otherwise they would come back from malham and go wow he did this great f7a. In fact my understanding is that sport climbers are much more numbers obsessed. Look at 8a.nu that is a score card for sport climbers. I believe on the continent a lot of easyish routes don't even get names they get reffered to as the f7b at sector .... etc.
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to popebenedictus:

What ever, My last routes were soloing and simul-climbing on Scafell. Sorry I ain't a peak punter.
Carless - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Keith Sharples:

Well said.

To some of the others:

The guy's on a climbing trip to the UK with a mate.
Be friendly, be welcoming and ffs stop trying to tell him what he should do
Ron Kenyon - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Dan_Carroll:

Thanks for that !!

I can't climb anywhere near what is being done by Adam. I am more into trad than sport - but seeing someone operating at the top end of climbing whether trad, sport, big mountains or whatever is something special.

Will it be ticket only on the Catwalk ?
Mr Plow on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Dan_Carroll:

word is there is most likely a rest day planned for sat cos of crap weather then back on it for sunday!
robin mueller - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Mr Plow:
> (In reply to Dan_Carroll)
>
> word is there is most likely a rest day planned for sat cos of crap weather then back on it for sunday!

Eh? Doesn't Malham stay dry in the rain? Or does it seep?

Tim Broughtonshaw on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to robin mueller: it could be that the top of overshadow is exposed, and or that the wind is a southerly maybe.
Mr Plow on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to robin mueller:

100% cloud with base level of 40m + light precip. from 10am till 4pm

being inside a cloud for 6 hours is likely to make you wet yes.

Michael Gordon - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manko:

I understand it was more like "flashed with two friends already in place, one which could be placed from the relatively (for him) easy first few moves, one of which was poorly placed anyway and he had to move it"!
Franco Cookson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yeh, I was being a bit of a chode really. All these achievements are amazing and opporating miles above the likes of chubby micro-routers like us. My point is plainly that europeans and brits are the same species and opporating at a similar level at the top. Europeans don't crush our trad, cause it's hard due to gear placement and danger, just like we don't crush their routes, just cause they're safe.

Good luck to Ondra, not that he'll need it. The motion of moving on rock is for most of us amazing and for someone of his ability it must be incredible, lets hope he ventures into the greater ranges though.
Toerag - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez: I second the posts about Violent New Breed - it is really disappointing when you have a route that's unrepeated for ages so no-one knows how hard or good it is. So many people want Ondra to get out there and repeat those big number UK climbs that never get done - VNB, Big Bang, Hubble, McClure's routes, Brian etc. because they want to know how UK sport compares to the rest of the world.
Morgan Woods - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Keith Sharples:

i think Didier Raboutou might have done a bit back in the day though details escape me.

interesting (or not) turn this thread has taken....there is a lot of great climbing in the the UK so it's understandable locals feel proud of what's on offer, just not sure why one particular style of climbing needs to be validated over any others.....why aren't the boulderers suggesting certain problems get a visit from this bloke?

kind of like a cultural cringe for the traddies.
Ian Patterson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manco:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> My point is plainly that europeans and brits are the same species and opporating at a similar level at the top.

Maybe true near to the top but I'm not sure that Adam Ondra is operating at a similar level to anyone! Ste Mac has put up classic sport routes on the major cliffs in the UK that no-one has been even close to repeating and also repeated one on the hardest trad routes in a country over a couple of weekends - if AO can repeat his hardest route over a few days I would consider that a more than impressive achievement. Also his onsight achievements from yesterday would be an outstanding day for anybody (remember we like to think that Malham with all its technical trickery and terrible footholds is hard to onsight at) never mind the fact that he did in between trying to redpoint a 9a+.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Tim Broughtonshaw on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Ian Patterson:
> (In reply to Fr Manco)
> [...]
>
>...... never mind the fact that he did in between trying to redpoint a 9a+.

Thats the bit i wonder about. Sure he is just enjoying himself immensely but cannot off the top of my head think of many people who when trying to redpoint a route at the top of their grade, on the same day make a good point of exerting a fair deal of effort and potential redpoint attempts up on other routes. I certinaly dont have the credentials to question his judgements but makes you wonder if he would have dotn overshadow even sooner if he hadnt rushed up several other hard routes also. I know operating in the 9's is gonna make the early 8's a lot easier than mortals consider them but they must be sapping some of his redpoint energy....hopefully.... :)


Cheers
Tim
JJL - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Nez:

Shouldn't he be in school?
ksjs - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Tim Broughtonshaw: well, unless he's wired differently then you must be right: if i seek to redpoint something at my max yet on the same day i onsight some things a few grades easier there is just no way i'll do as well on those redpoints as i would otherwise have done. incredible stuff!
Monk - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manco:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>

> ... lets hope he ventures into the greater ranges though.

Genius!
dave o - on 30 Apr 2010
what a bunch of wallopers lurk around this place!!!

extraordinary
Guy Maddox - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Keith Sharples:

One, well two, more to add to the list of top foreign sport climbers who visited the UK:

Jean-Paul Finné and Alec Bronitz from Belgium in 1993:
J-P was the main man with on-sights of Zoolook, Toadal Recall and Man with a Gun. He also red-pointed Ecstasy, Predator, Yorkshire Ripper, Grooved Arete, Connect Four, Bullet and Showtime.
Alec on-sighted The Bulge and red-pointed Ecstasy.

That was in the space of a week, possibly two, and definitely fits with your "The common tread - all climbers on climbing trips..." comment - just two of them, reasonably evenly matched, on their hols. Their weather matched that set in store for Adam Ondra from the sound of the forecasts.
Graeme Alderson on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to Fr Manco:
> (In reply to andy farnell)
>
> *flashed with pre placed draws.

Don't be a muppet, the route is done of cams not bolts

Michael Ryan - on 30 Apr 2010
In reply to dave o:

> what a bunch of wallopers lurk around this place!!!
>
> extraordinary

How condescending!

Do you not think it great that many climbers (wherever they post or discuss) are totally psyched that this young man, probably the best sport climber in the world, is over here to try some of the UK's hardest sport climbs.

Long may may climbers discuss grades, trad vs. sport, and climbing achievement, and the significance of this young man being over here.

He has stimulated much climbing debate and no doubt created much motivation and inspiration.

Mick

Bulls Crack - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to dave o)
>
> [...]
>
> How condescending!
>
> Do you not think it great that many climbers (wherever they post or discuss) are totally psyched that this young man, probably the best sport climber in the world, is over here to try some of the UK's hardest sport climbs.
>
> Long may may climbers discuss grades, trad vs. sport, and climbing achievement, and the significance of this young man being over here.
>
> He has stimulated much climbing debate and no doubt created much motivation and inspiration.
>
> Mick

Good point to make and one which perhaps a few magasine editors/authors might like to take on board re: on-line discussion - it seems in vogue to dismiss the on-line 'community' as a bunch of nerds or ill-informed punters whose opinions don't count.
grizz - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Nez:

i bet his mum is worried sick...climbing that high off the gound. he might get grounded without supper for a couple of weeks.
mark s - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Nez: that's a fair tick list for a few days!
Wonder how many people will show up at malham today,only to find he is at raven tor :-)
Owen W-G - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Fr Manco:

Franco mate, what a load of nonsense.
The reason us Brits don't crush top end Euro routes is that, bar Steve M, we aren't good enough. Nothing to do with them being not dangerous enough for us suicidally-minded Brits. Willy-waving about your belief that climbing is all about danger would impress Adam O even less than it impresses most folk on here.

And as for why he isn't out on trad, if you went on a short haul bolting clipping trip to Spain, what would you say to those who were complaining why you weren't romping up mountains up in the Pyranese? He's planned a trip to check out some of UK's hardest sport routes, why do you think he should abandon plans and go and do what Franco thinks he should do instead? His itinery is none of your business really.
Enty - on 01 May 2010
In reply to mark s:
>
> Wonder how many people will show up at malham today

Malham is one of the world's best crags but who would make a special trip to Malham or change their weekend plans just because Ondra was going to be there?

Enty

hexcentric - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Owen W-G:

Where did Franco say he 'should'? He said it would be interesting.
In reply to Toerag:
> (In reply to Nez) I second the posts about Violent New Breed - it is really disappointing when you have a route that's unrepeated for ages so no-one knows how hard or good it is.

Doesn't it have a reputation for a being something of a boulder problem in the sky? In which case, perhaps we should have a whip around to buy Nalle Hukkataival a ticket because that sounds like just his thing. One of the best boulderers in the planet, who occasionally puts on a harness and then redpoints something hard.
Dan_Carroll - on 01 May 2010
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Toerag)
> [...]
>
> Doesn't it have a reputation for a being something of a boulder problem in the sky?

yeah I seem to remember reading it's essentially a V15 problem and only 3 or so clips long. sounds perfect for Nalle! the guy looks unbelievably strong.
hexcentric - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Dan_Carroll:

Highballable then? It's in the database here as 6m.
Adam Lincoln - on 01 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to Dan_Carroll)
>
> Highballable then? It's in the database here as 6m.

Not a great landing though. Slopes.
Michael Ryan - on 01 May 2010
JJL - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

The fact that VNB has 2* in the logbooks shows that we have some way to go with how routes get stars....
Michael Ryan - on 01 May 2010
In reply to JJL:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> The fact that VNB has 2* in the logbooks shows that we have some way to go with how routes get stars....

Get busy and start defining the criteria then.

Ian McNeill - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> (In reply to Misha)
>
> [...]
>
> <<<<tired old cliché alert>>>


Well he should at least visit gods only cliff GOGARTH !!

chopping the tat at Castell Helen (If he dare abseil with out it !! )

In reply to Ian McNeill:
>
>
> Well he should at least visit gods only cliff GOGARTH !!
>
> chopping the tat at Castell Helen (If he dare abseil with out it !! )

Which cutting-edge sport routes might attract him to Gogarth then?



Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Ian McNeill)
> [...]
>
> Which cutting-edge sport routes might attract him to Gogarth then?
>
>
Give me a hilti and a bag of bolts and I'll have a 3 star F6a called Dream of White Gelded Horses for him.

Micky J - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Ian McNeill)
> [...]
>
> Which cutting-edge sport routes might attract him to Gogarth then?
>
>
>
> Chris

None cos its a pile of welded mouse shit
Bulls Crack - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Nez:

I wouldn't have thought spotting Adam Ondra at Malham would do much good most of the time.
Misha - on 01 May 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> Which cutting-edge sport routes might attract him to Gogarth then?

The Cad? ;-)
ian caton on 02 May 2010
In reply to grumpybearpantsclimbinggoat:

5 star F4
AJM - on 02 May 2010
In reply to Ian McNeill:

There's already no tat there. The second rope set up was just done off 3 of the rusty pegs, which I looked at and thought "really?!"

Whoever was saying dream would be a *** 6a, maybe a */** 4+ or something. I don't think the atmosphere would be the same, and when it comes down to it there's one really good pitch on it, plus a few ok ones...
seagull on 03 May 2010
Anyone who doesn't think that Ondra has the balls for trad should read this.....

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08x/newswire-adam-ondra-redpoint-wogu

"...serious run outs and the potential for 20m falls...." On 8b+ and 8c ground. And that was two years ago when he wasn't nearly as good or as experienced as he is now!

You people live in a little trad bubble and have no idea what you are talking about.
Michael Ryan - on 03 May 2010
In reply to seagull:

Hi Jasper Sharpe,

Reported twice at UKClimbing.com in 2008.

Better is this by Pietro Dal Pra... one of the best articles 'you people' will ever read

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-gb/journal/climb/all/bd-athlete-adam-ondra-redpoints-wogü-51...
seagull on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Good link, ta Mick.
rallymania - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Nez:

Ondra spotted?



well he is still a teenager :-)
franksnb - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: excellent read that
mark s - on 03 May 2010
In reply to seagull:
> Anyone who doesn't think that Ondra has the balls for trad should read this.....
>
> http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web08x/newswire-adam-ondra-redpoint-wogu
>
> "...serious run outs and the potential for 20m falls...." On 8b+ and 8c ground. And that was two years ago when he wasn't nearly as good or as experienced as he is now!
>
> You people live in a little trad bubble and have no idea what you are talking about.

Well said.
You only have to see him missin clips on la Rambla and action directe.if he can run it on those routes,some uk trad route is going to be a walk in the park.

hexcentric - on 03 May 2010
In reply to seagull:
> Anyone who doesn't think that Ondra has the balls for trad

I can't be bothered checking carefully through the thread, but I'm pretty sure no one said he didn't have the balls.

James Oswald - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Brilliant.
Especially the ability to memorise 200metres of climbing like that.
Just awesome.

James
Michael Ryan - on 03 May 2010
In reply to mark s:
> (In reply to seagull)
> [...]
>
> Well said.

Not really Mark.

It's just the usual willy waiving and gamesmanship. I think most UK climbers are under no illusion whatsoever about the ability of some of the World's top climbers and their ability to climb the UK's hardest trad routes.

Antoine Le Menestrel's solo'ed Revalations 8a+ 25 years ago....oh that's not trad, but it was one heck of a headpoint that still hasn't been repeated by the strong and obsessed.

Meshuga E9 got solo'ed two years ago by Jorgeson and Honnold. Trotter repeated Rhapsody E11. Nico Favresse and Sean Villanueva O'Driscoll ripped it up onsight a couple of years ago too.

It's just Jasper and crew being silly (put that on a T-shirt eh?) and making out they are better than others.

We have something really special in the UK and something to be proud of, but that doesn't mean that the talented can't rip it up when they come over here whatever style they climb.

I'm sure Ondra could climb anything he so desired in the UK he's that talented..... maybe even some of Mick Fowler's or Pat Littlejohn's routes.

Yeah Ondra.... what's he done down the Lleyn?

M



long - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Very minor point but wasn't Revelations 8a 25 years ago?
hexcentric - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan:

What a load of contradictory waffle.
ads.ukclimbing.com
In reply to hexcentric:
> What a load of contradictory waffle.

Expand on that please.

Contradictory?

Waffle?

Which bits exactly?

Alan

franksnb - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Nez: ON TOPIC! what's he been up to today?
JSA - on 03 May 2010
In reply to franksnb:

More to the point, has Jack worked his magic and got an interview for UKCTV?
Charlie_Zero on 03 May 2010
In reply to Nez:

Out of interest, what "crag guide" would Ondra use. Routes such as Rainshadow and Overshadow aren't in the usual guidebooks.
Michael Ryan - on 03 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan)
>
> What a load of contradictory waffle.

Oh sweetness. Bless.

nigel pearson - on 03 May 2010
In reply to franksnb:
Talk on Uk Bouldering is of him being to Kilnsey over the weekend and redpointing Northern Star and trying but not succeeding yet on Northern Lights.
flaneur - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

> It's just Jasper and crew being silly (put that on a T-shirt eh?) and making out they are better than others.

> <a bunch of stuff that deliberately misses the point>

seagul/Jasper's comment was about the idiocy of some of the comments earlier in the thread (hard to disagree with) so you divert attention from this by going off on one about how good foreign climbers are at trad. Always a good debating tactic: if you can't refute the point, refute a completely different one and perhaps people won't notice.


<on topic> According to UKB he did Northern Star on Saturday and Northern Lights today. Astonishing.




hexcentric - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Alan James - UKC:

Ok then. He took issue with seagull/Jasper saying "You people live in a little trad bubble and have no idea what you are talking about", but then took the piss out of the same people himself in adding "what's he done down the Lleyn" etc.

As to waffle, flaneur beat me to it.
Michael Ryan - on 03 May 2010
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)

> <on topic> According to UKB he did Northern Star on Saturday and Northern Lights today. Astonishing.

"Wasn't there myself but a text at the crag said he redpointed Northern Lights today. If true 2 of the 4 hardest routes in Yorkshire ticked in 3 days"

North Star 9a

Northern Light 9a


In reply to flaneur and Hexentric: It's like the difference between different types of bird watchers.

Birders and Twitchers are always taking the piss out of each other.

No, you won't get it!
JSA - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So Mick, has Jack got the scoop for UKCTV and you're not telling us, or has it been a missed opportunity?
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> If true 2 of the 4 hardest routes in Yorkshire ticked in 3 days

Wow. Stupendous effort Mr Ondra!
Michael Ryan - on 03 May 2010
In reply to TobyA:

According to Rich Kirby at ukb, on the spot reporter (amongst several)...with some links to pics of some of the routes for those that aren't familiar with them

I'm sure that there will be more reports later.


AT MALHAM

He had several redpoints on Overshadow at Malham thinking it was 9a+

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=143266

He onsighted Predator 8b

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=127659

"However, he thought the end of the route was the 1st belay(its 20ft higher). He looked very comfortable & I doubt he'd have fallen off the last bit.  utted to hear he had a further 20ft. Putting clips in."

Austrian Oak 8b onsight putting the clips in.
Magnetic Fields 8b onsight, putting the clips in.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=83701

Groove>Free and Easy>Breach of the Peace 8b O/S - putting clips in.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=127143

Energy Vampire 8a+ O/S - putting clips in. Looked puzzled at last move for a while.......and fell off. Isn't it like RD's in that you grab a draw on the ring peg to finish???

Notably, he did Magnetic, had 5 mins rest, then the Oak

KILNSEY

North Star 9a

Northern Light 9a
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=169
snoop6060 - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

He did that all in a week?
Tim Broughtonshaw on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

He did north star on sunday morning (in balticly windy conditions) not saturday.


Cheers
Tim
Michael Ryan - on 03 May 2010
In reply to snoop6060:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> He did that all in a week?

Yes.

James Oswald - on 03 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Awesome from Ondra!
Well done but I can't say I'm surprised.
James
snoop6060 - on 04 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


"Groove>Free and Easy>Breach of the Peace 8b O/S - putting clips in."

How is this climbed? One big rope (and topped out), multipitch or with insitu belayers waiting. CLimbing the whole of malham in one push is literally my lifes aim and this guy onsighted it.

That tick list is something special for a weeks work, as James said, for him its not that surprising! The fact that he is 16 is almost unbelievable though.
Michael Ryan - on 04 May 2010
In reply to snoop6060:

Like this...

Steve Crowe Climbs Full Height of Malham Cove

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=49821
a lakeland climber on 04 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Not being a sport climber - I much prefer trad - but I have to say that this is (insert jaw dropping adjective here) well, impressive.

Being at Kilnsey on Sunday must have been arctic in the north easterly - we sought out a more sheltered venue - so doubly well done. Just goes to show what talent, training, flexibility and more importantly not having gained a lifetime of exuses can do.

ALC
ali k on 04 May 2010
So can anyone update now?...Rich?
Has he gone home? Is that the end of the crushing? Overshadow in the bag, or not?

I've got that feeling of post-holiday blues...like when you've been looking forward to something for so long, and then it happens and you enjoy it while it lasts and it exceeds all your expectations, but then it's just over too quickly and you're left feeling empty afterwards :-(

OK...a bit melodramatic...but how long will we have to wait before another super-wad comes over and wipes the floor with 'our' (Steve's) hardest routes?

Hopefully not too long now that Ondra's given Yorkshire some attention...

It'll be interesting to read about his thoughts on the crags and routes (quality, grades, etc) and I guess even more interesting for Steve to hear, after so long without a repeat.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Ian Patterson on 04 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

>
> I've got that feeling of post-holiday blues...like when you've been looking forward to something for so long, and then it happens and you enjoy it while it lasts and it exceeds all your expectations, but then it's just over too quickly and you're left feeling empty afterwards :-(
>
> OK...a bit melodramatic...but how long will we have to wait before another super-wad comes over and wipes the floor with 'our' (Steve's) hardest routes?


Maybe a bit OTT but I see your point - this thread has got a bit like that as well, lots of overexcitement followed by rubbish arguments and then shuffling to an end before its actually been confirmed what he achieved.

I'd like to hear confirmation of what he ticked and his thoughts on British climbing - if the stuff listed in this thread is correct then we really have seen one of best weeks of climbing ever in this country.
Tim Broughtonshaw on 04 May 2010
In reply to ali k:
> It'll be interesting to read about his thoughts on the crags and routes (quality, grades, etc) and I guess even more interesting for Steve to hear, after so long without a repeat.

Incidentally on saturday after he had one early morning redpoint attempt on overshadow, he stripped the route on the way down (after failing) and coincidentally Ste Mac arrived and they had a chat. Prior to Adam heading straight to kilnsey.

Cheers
Tim
GrahamD - on 04 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

Is a "super wad crushing" the same as a "strong climber climbing" ?
Serpico on 04 May 2010 - unallocated.star.net.uk
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to ali k)
>
> Is a "super wad crushing" the same as a "strong climber climbing" ?

No, it's significantly more impressive.
Robertostallioni - on 04 May 2010
In reply to Serpico:
> (In reply to GrahamD)
> [...]
>
> No, it's significantly more impressive.

http://www.old-picture.com/civil-war/pictures/Smoking-Pipes.jpg

ali k on 04 May 2010
In reply to GrahamD:

> Is a "super wad crushing" the same as a "strong climber climbing" ?

that's like totally what it means yeh. get wit it. and as my man serps said, it's like way more impressive yeh
Serpico on 04 May 2010 - unallocated.star.net.uk
In reply to Robertostallioni:


Those were good times...
Franco Cookson on 04 May 2010
In reply to Owen W-G:

I wish people would read my posts.


UKC love banning me for way less than the average punter gets away with. The fact that I haven't been banned for anything i've said in the last few months is evidence enough that I haven't said anything which wasn't well informed and/or worthwhile opinion. I do enjoy reading peoples strange interpretations of what i've written though, so if you'd like to get worked up by my posts, feel free.
Ian Patterson on 04 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

For all the geeks (myself included), AO has updated his 8a.nu scorecard.

Northern Lights and North Star both redpointed at 9a (he says North Star may be harder for the short ).

Plus onsights of 5 8b's, 2 8a+'s, 2 8a's (he didn't give himself the onsight of Predator!), just missed out onsighting True North right at the top. Comments on Overshadow were 'Must come back for Overshadow. It is pretty stiff 9a+ indeed. Possibly 9b? I have no clue, it is very specific move.'

Seemed to have really enjoyed the climbing.
Owen W-G - on 04 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

My apologies, it's like Paris being pleasant in the the spring. I read your 'it would be interesting' as 'he should'.
Owen W-G - on 04 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

By the way, is that Star Wars onsight solo for real? Awesome.
Tim Broughtonshaw on 04 May 2010
In reply to Ian Patterson:

>
> Seemed to have really enjoyed the climbing.

yes for me that's the best thing about his visit. Some awesome crushing but for him to be positive about the routes is good to hear. Watch this space for some more visits from Andrada/Usobiaga/Shamra etc

Cheers
Tim

Serpico on 04 May 2010 - unallocated.star.net.uk
In reply to Ian Patterson:
> (In reply to ali k)
>
> For all the geeks (myself included), AO has updated his 8a.nu scorecard.
>
> Northern Lights and North Star both redpointed at 9a (he says North Star may be harder for the short ).
>
> Plus onsights of 5 8b's, 2 8a+'s, 2 8a's (he didn't give himself the onsight of Predator!), just missed out onsighting True North right at the top. Comments on Overshadow were 'Must come back for Overshadow. It is pretty stiff 9a+ indeed. Possibly 9b? I have no clue, it is very specific move.'
>
> Seemed to have really enjoyed the climbing.

From his score card he doesn't seem to hand out praise willy-nilly so the positive comments he's made should be taken as high praise indeed.
People have mocked me previously when I've suggested that we actually have some world class sport climbing in this country.
And it's good to see Ondra confirm what we already knew - Ste Mac's a world class wad*.

*(no apologies made for use of the term 'wad').
Serpico on 04 May 2010 - unallocated.star.net.uk
In reply to Tim Broughtonshaw:
> (In reply to Ian Patterson)
>
> [...]
>
> Watch this space for some more visits from Andrada/Usobiaga/Shamra etc
>

Shamra? the Egyptian god of waddage?

Franco Cookson on 04 May 2010
In reply to Serpico:

It took Ste Mac 42 days to work overshaddow. It took hime over 15 years to work Strategem at his home crag of Ravenscar. So this must mean that it is at least F9b+? The hardest route in the world at hasty bank???
Tyler - on 04 May 2010
In reply to Serpico:

Yeah its great to see such overwhelmingly positive comments about the quality of routes.
chris_j_s - on 04 May 2010
In reply to Tyler:
> (In reply to Serpico)
>
> Yeah its great to see such overwhelmingly positive comments about the quality of routes.

Yes, especially a simple 'wow!' for Totally Free II, and the fact that he has marked up Northern Lights as one of his recommended routes.
Alun - on 04 May 2010
In reply to Tyler:
> Yeah its great to see such overwhelmingly positive comments about the quality of routes.

Agreed, and also great to see more respect being given to Ste Mac and the sheer difficulty of some of his routes. Ondra's comment on his 8a logbook:

"Must come back for Overshadow. It is pretty stiff 9a+ indeed. Possibly 9b? I have no clue, it is very specific move."
Tim Broughtonshaw on 04 May 2010
In reply to Serpico:
> (In reply to Tim Broughtonshaw)
> [...]
>
> Shamra? the Egyptian god of waddage?

Aye it wasnt a typo, think its been used before, it somehow seems to fit when you take his power screams and the tide of sharma positive hype that you get from the dosage vids.

Cheers
Tim
In reply to Ian Patterson:

> Northern Lights and North Star both redpointed at 9a (he says North Star may be harder for the short ).

Slightly silly pub quiz type question - but do we think they are the most northerly 9as in the world? There are no confirmed 9as in Scotland are there? Or in Sweden? I don't think so...
ads.ukclimbing.com
Graeme Alderson on 04 May 2010
In reply to Tim Broughtonshaw: Get with the programme Tim. Calling Sharma Shamra is a piss take from She-Ra The Princess of Power in He-Ma & The Masters of the Universe.

"By the Power Of Greyskull I will crush this rout" (rout = Septic pronunciation of route)

:-)
Alun - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Graeme Alderson:
> "By the Power Of Greyskull I will crush this rout" (rout = Septic pronunciation of route)

Actually, I saw an interview with Pharaoh Shamra recently, where he pronounced "route" the correct way, some American's do.
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
>
> It's just the usual willy waiving and gamesmanship. I think most UK climbers are under no illusion whatsoever about the ability of some of the World's top climbers and their ability to climb the UK's hardest trad routes.


However a LOT of UK climbers have little understanding of just how hard the UK's hardest sport is compared to its hardest trad.
Simpson pointed this out a few years ago in a BMC Summit article. The difference is massive and clearly shows Ondra to be in a league of his own compared to any previous visting wads..

James Oswald - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B:
Do you mean physically hard? Mentally hard? Or a combination of the two?
They are very different.
CLimbing a sport route at your physical limit is very different compared to climbing one on poor traditional gear placements.
James
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to James Oswald:
James see you're missing the point again. If you're climbing 9a with that ease and onsighting at such a high level conssistenyl on different rock types in different countries the climbing presented on UK trad routes IS a formality whatever the situation.
You could add a giant spiked bear pit under things like Meshuga and climbers of that callibre aren't going to break a sweat. For an example, Mclure made extremely short work of Rhapsody.
James Paul Robinson - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B: McClure never climbed Rhapsopdy.
JLS on 05 May 2010
In reply to James Oswald:

>"Do you mean..."

To be fair I think everyone else on the planet knew he meant physically hard.
JLS on 05 May 2010
In reply to James Paul Robinson:

>"McClure never climbed Rhapsopdy."

He climbed what he considered Rhapsody to be. He was content with his personal performance.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B:
> (In reply to James Oswald)
> If you're climbing 9a with that ease and onsighting at such a high level conssistenyl on different rock types in different countries the climbing presented on UK trad routes IS a formality whatever the situation.

That simply is not true.

Trad routes in the UK go up to F8c+ above a very dangerous fall. F8c+ is not a formality for someone climbing F9a, F9a+ or even F9b. And lets not forget that the hardest anyone has onsighted is F8c, which is a lot easier than the combined experience of a lot of trad routes, which are often damp, difficult to approach, snappy and serious.

James Paul Robinson - on 05 May 2010
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to James Paul Robinson)
>
> >"McClure never climbed Rhapsopdy."
>
> He climbed what he considered Rhapsody to be. He was content with his personal performance.

So like i said, he never actually climbed Rhapsody.
Tom_Harding - on 05 May 2010
Is it just me or is Overshadow missing from the log books?
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to thread:

Uh oh, RELAPSE!
RupertD - on 05 May 2010
In reply to James Paul Robinson:
> (In reply to JLS)
> [...]
>
> So like i said, he never actually climbed Rhapsody.

He got one hold near the top with his right hand rather than his left making the top move a bit easier. Routes don't have L and R written next to the holds.
Monk - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to Paul B)
> [...]
>
> That simply is not true.
> ... a lot of trad routes, which are often damp, difficult to approach, snappy and serious.

And you wonder why touring europeans aren't enthusiastic about repeating them, with descriptions like that! ;)

Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to RupertD:

He obviously climbed Rhapsody, but what does that prove? That the top Sport climber in the UK can headpoint the UKs second hardest trad route?

If the bolts on a F9a+ were replaced with threads it would be about E11, remarkably similar to the current top trad routes i'd say...
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C: Using the rockfax conversion chart I'm sure you're right. However, its wrong.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B: what would you suggest it is? - considering a F8c+ with a massive fall is E11.
Ian Patterson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to RupertD)
>
> He obviously climbed Rhapsody, but what does that prove? That the top Sport climber in the UK can headpoint the UKs second hardest trad route?
>

It prooved that Britains best sport climber can repeat the UKs 2nd hardest trad climb a lot more quickly than the first ascentionist (one of Britains best trad climbers) and a visiting Canadian. And Adam Ondra looks to be a good bit 'better' than Steve M.

I guess the point that people are trying to make is that the hardest sport routes are properly hard. Quite a few of Britains best trad climbers spend plenty time at Malham / Kilnsey (e.g. Dave Birket) and aren't even ready to attempt Steve's hard routes - and its not as if there anything but super classics (no elimate rules on Rainshow ;) ). Maybe Dave Mac could have a go but since he and Malcom Smith seem to swap hard sports routes and boulders in Scotland and MS hasn't managed to repeat any of the big 4 I'm not sure how much success he'd have.
Calum Nicoll - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to RupertD)
>
> He obviously climbed Rhapsody, but what does that prove? That the top Sport climber in the UK can headpoint the UKs second hardest trad route?

Mcclure's effort was more like climbing a runout sports route. Still awesome, but not comparable.

It's not trad if you preplace all the gear.
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Calum Nicoll:
> It's not trad if you preplace all the gear.

Have you told Mr Birkett about this?

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James Paul Robinson - on 05 May 2010
In reply to RupertD: Having spoken with Steve personally and getting his opinion he admitted he used holds that were not in the eliminate headwall of rhapsody.
Kid Spatula - on 05 May 2010
In reply to James Paul Robinson:

Bit of a crappy trad route if you have to avoid holds on purpose no?
Adam Lincoln - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Kid Spatula:
> (In reply to James Paul Robinson)
>
> Bit of a crappy trad route if you have to avoid holds on purpose no?

This shows the differences.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=90179

James Paul Robinson - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Kid Spatula: True, he said that Dave had almost found the hardest way of getting up the headwall and it was definitely an eliminate problem up there.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Ian Patterson:

Thanks for explaining that and I sort of get what you mean.


Although I don't think you can talk about comparing times between the first ascentionist and someone repeating it (especially when Steve appears to have climbed it slightly differently). Opening lines is always a lot more difficult and time consuming.


Does all thid not show that there are two beasts in british climbing- one who puts up hard sport routes and one who puts up hard trad routes and that they are operating at a similar level. Overshaddow appears harder than Rhapsody, but then so does Echo wall?

Kid Spatula - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Yeah but Steve McClure climbed the line of Rhapsody, not one of the others.
Quiddity - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

What other UK trad routes are there with 8c/+ difficulty other than ones put up by Dave Mac?

Genuine question. Rhapsody always gets wheeled out as the example, so are there other trad routes of a similar technical difficulty, or is it the exception that proves the rule?

If 6 was 9 - about 8a+
Divided Years - 8a+
Knockin on Heaven's Door - 7b
Meshuga - somewhere between 7b+ and 8a
Parthian Shot - 8a+
Gerty Berwick - 'highball Font 8a'
New Statesman - 7c+ to 8a+
Widdop Wall - 8a+

The only one I can actually think of is Beth Rodden's route, Meltdown.
Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to Calum Nicoll)
> [...]
>
> Have you told Mr Birkett about this?

He'd probably agree.

Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Are there other sport routes graded F9a+/b?
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

He'll not be best pleased that the guidebooks have gone and given them E grades then eh?
Quiddity - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

Are you kidding? Around the world or in the UK?

The UK has Violent New Breed and Overshadow at 9a+, and at 9a has North Star, Northern Lights, Rainshadow, Mutation, Big Bang and Total Eclipse...
Quiddity - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

around the world, this should give you a rough idea
http://escalade9.wifeo.com/grimpeurs.php
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

In the UK, as we were talking about UK climbers.

Is your point that overshaddow is way harder than Echo Wall?
Quiddity - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

My point is that when this argument comes up, the counter example you always give to say that the technical difficulty on a UK trad route is comparable to sport routes, is Rhapsody.

I am saying, that as Dave Mac has done 9a he is getting on for a sport wad himself, so perhaps he is the exception that proves the rule - given he has chewed up and spat out pretty much the hardest of the hard trad route in the country. And the only successful repeats of Rhapsody to date are by climbers with a very strong sport track record.

What routes, other than those put up by Dave Mac, are of a similar level of technical difficulty? ie. F8c or above.

According to my rockfax graded list (which is a good number of years out of date now but here is the starter for 10) there are 9 routes at 8c and above in the Peak alone, and 8 in Yorkshire.

I am actually interested in the answer to this - if anyone knows? what hard trad routes are there featuring climbing at say F8b or above? Or is Dave Mac the only trad climber we have operating at that kind of technical level? (aside from McClure, natch) Dave Mac reckoned the Walk of Life was 8a/8a+ FWIW.
Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
> He'll not be best pleased that the guidebooks have gone and given them E grades then eh?

Ask him.

Knowing Dave, he lives to climb, not to grade, although he'll talk grades like any of us.

It's never black and white were climbing is concerned, unless you are off!

People love to rank and categories - as on this thread - but it is ultimately futile.

Here goes.... two of the climbers who impress me are of course Ondra, and Alex Honnold - put a silly E=grade on his solo ascents.

Grades are guides to routes I can't do.




Adam Lincoln - on 05 May 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Welcome To The Cruel World - 8b+'ish - Birkett
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Im not very clued up on the Sport grades of hard pre-practised trad routes, but there are definitely many trad routes equivalent to F8cs (E9s). If we compare the numbers of E8s to F8bs, E9s to F8cs and E10s to F9as; I think we'd find that there would be a balance.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


I agree Mick. I merely want people to stop posting the same old comments about how much harder top end sport climbers climb than top end trad climbers. Comparing grades is the only way to demonstrate that this isnt the case.
Quiddity - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Cheers. Breathless is apparently 8b+ climbing as well.

Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com)
>
>
> I agree Mick. I merely want people to stop posting the same old comments about how much harder top end sport climbers climb than top end trad climbers. Comparing grades is the only way to demonstrate that this isnt the case.

Jeezus.

You can't compare: and it's pointless doing so. But please don't give up!

Not that long ago we were all climbers.

It's all climbing.

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Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010
Quiddity - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

> Im not very clued up on the Sport grades of hard pre-practised trad routes

Then it's a bit of a bold statement to make, isn't it, that hard UK trad is just as technically difficult as hard sport?

> there are definitely many trad routes equivalent to F8cs

such as which ones?

> If we compare the numbers of E8s to F8bs, E9s to F8cs and E10s to F9as


aaaaargh now you sound like Jens from 8a.nu. This is exactly the point, the E grade doesn't directly measure technical difficulty and you can't compare E grades to F grades as well you know. Indian Face E9 is 7b+ and as Adam points out, Welcome to the Cruel World E9 is 8b+.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

You can.

I'm talking about the trad grade a perfectly protected (bolted) sport route would get.

F8a is around E7 = fact
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
For heavens sake; Apart from Dave Mc, take any other British tradster and look at their sport climbing ahcievments are any of them anywhere near cutting edge? The answer is no, just no. In this manner we're making a comparison between Trad and Sport and not Dave and Steve etc.
The difference between 8a+-8b+ climbing on Trad routes and 9a+ Sport is immense.
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C: Absolute tosh Frnaco, E7 is a world away from F8a. FACT.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:
> (In reply to Fr anco C)
>
> [...]
>
> Then it's a bit of a bold statement to make, isn't it, that hard UK trad is just as technically difficult as hard sport?
>
>


I never said that. An F8a sport route is about as hard as an F7b sport route with a death fall. That is the principle of trad climbing, I wish people could understand this, even mick doesn't.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B:

Then why did old F8a sport routes get E7 before french grades?
Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010
Quiddity - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

>> If you're climbing 9a with that ease and onsighting at such a high level conssistenyl on different rock types in different countries the climbing presented on UK trad routes IS a formality whatever the situation.

You said:

> That simply is not true.

> Trad routes in the UK go up to F8c+ above a very dangerous fall.

What I am saying, is that other than routes put up by Dave Macleod, which trad routes in the UK have anything like F8c+ climbing above a dangerous fall?

Hypothetical grade conversion tables are not evidence that these routes actually exist in the UK.
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
Because the grading scale wasn't representative or appropriate. A shaky foundation to be basing your arguments upon?

E7 does not equal F8a in the real world.

I think a lot of this type of debating stems from grade conversion tables etc. that need a re-work (a difficult job I admit).
Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B:
> (In reply to Fr anco C)


> I think a lot of this type of debating stems from grade conversion tables etc. that need a re-work (a difficult job I admit).

Try it. You'll fail. As will anyone. They are rough guidelines.

Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Absolutely Mick, but nobody (i.e. Franco.) will take them as Guidelines. They take them as given.
I will say though that the current table is so far off that a better guess could/should be formulated.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Well I am right then. The trad routes in the UK aren't formalities as two routes are F8c/+ with dangerous falls.


Once you get rid of those routes (for some arbitary reason I don't understand) then you are right, there isn't much above F8b, which for a F9b readpointer isn't that hard, but to onsight these routes would be.

On reason top end Trad headpointing isn't developing as fast as sport (apart from the tiny amount of people concerned with trad compared to sport) is that many are more interested in onsight climbing. If we compare sport onsighting to trad onsighting, they aren't that far away- E8 (F8bish) and F8c.

Forgive my ignorance, but how many sport climbers have onsighted F8c?
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B:

Surely every F8a should equal the same H grade? and roughly the same E grade?
Adam Lincoln - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to Paul B)
>
> Surely every F8a should equal the same H grade? and roughly the same E grade?

OMG - Are you serious?

Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
- E8 (F8bish) and F8c.
>
> Forgive my ignorance, but how many sport climbers have onsighted F8c?

You're doing it again. E8 and F8b just aren't the same level of difficulty. Go and try them and speak from real world experience your conversions don't work. Think E8 F7b+ and thats how far out you are.

Tonnes Franco, tonnes. A lot of whom are very very young. F8c onsight is standard in Europe.

doylo - on 05 May 2010
I didn't realise that Rhapsody was a eliminate. Thats a bit shit isn't it!
Michael Hood - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
> (In reply to Fr anco C)
> [...]
>
> OMG - Are you serious?

No I think Franco's right on that one. Generalising a bit, the French grade is the overall grade for a super-well protected route on solid rock, etc.

So if you were to give these sports routes E grades, most of the E grade "factors" would be constant for all of them. This would leave the only variable factor as the physical difficulty of the route which is essentially the French grade - hence same F grade would pretty much mean same E grade.

The only other factor that might come in is that French is for climbing the route, whereas E grades are for on-sighting. So a hard to onsight French grade might have a higher E grade, etc.

JSA - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Michael Hood:


To echo Adam Lincoln

OMG - Are you serious?
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Michael Hood:

Hence why I said the same H grade- as the H grade doesn't take into account blindeness of moves/ sequence. Please enlighten me Adam, as to what variable I am forgetting?
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Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010


can someone give that record player a kick
C coldwell-storry - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
>
> F8a is around E7 = fact
Hahahaha mate your having a laugh! i did an E7 the other day that was F7a 7a+ MAX.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think you should ban yourself Mick. No one seems to be able to tell me why im wrong, so i'll just on keep believing i'm right.
Adam Lincoln - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to Michael Hood)
> Please enlighten me Adam, as to what variable I am forgetting?

I don't argue with stuck records, or brick walls.

Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to crcold:

But it was bold was it not?


I'm not saying all E7s are F8as, but a well protected (all the way through the route) E7 should be about F8a.

Either i'm missing something very obvious, or people are very slow on this forum. Your reply makes me think the latter.
Michael Hood - on 05 May 2010
In reply to the inspiral carpet: Yep, please point out the flaw in my logic.

I'm not suggesting we go back to E grades for sport as they wouldn't add any information above the French grade.
Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

You are absoloooterly correct Franco.

Now run along, or we'll set Adam and the cohort from UKB on you: they'll sort you out.
JSA - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

For arguments sake you throw a toprope down 2 8a's the difficulty is pretty much comparable.

Do the same with 2 E8's and the difficulty can be vast, as much as from 7a to 8a.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

That's what's odd about this forum.

step 1) wild accusation about how easy trad climbing is
step 2) reasoned argument for why the sccusation was wrong
Step 3) the sport climbers run away under a banner of the argument being boring
Step 4) the accusation is made again next week.



I'm not bothered if you don't want to discuss it, but lets not have more sport climbers spouting things which plainly are not true.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to the inspiral carpet:

obviously. But the challenges are meant to be the same, as the danger is more on the easier route.
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to crcold:
Bang an E-grade/H-grade drum as much as you like, onsight/headpoint bla bla. Go and take a look at a cutting edge sport route and then go and look at the equivalent trad route. Try the moves. I know which one's going to be harder regardless whether its measure using an E or a H or an F.
JSA - on 05 May 2010
In reply to the inspiral carpet:

Anyway, why has this led to a stupid grade debate?

Adam Ondra comes, sees, crushes and leaves. Awesome!
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B:

Have you factored the danger in though?

I suppose it's understandable that all sport climbers can comprehend is how hard the moves are, but an easier route can be as hard as a hard one if the gear is worse.
C coldwell-storry - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to crcold)
>
> But it was bold was it not?

not really, but it was a flash...so for an onsite it would feel quite bold yes. Anyhow i cant be arsed to enter into a massive debate, i just wanna have fun and climb cool routes.

Easy.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to crcold:

I agree. I'm happy not to discuss this bollocks, but I'll be on the next thread when someone says that Sport climbers could piss up any trad routes within minutes, spouting the same crap as I have here.
Michael Hood - on 05 May 2010
In reply to the inspiral carpet:
> (In reply to Fr anco C)
>
> For arguments sake you throw a toprope down 2 8a's the difficulty is pretty much comparable.
>
> Do the same with 2 E8's and the difficulty can be vast, as much as from 7a to 8a.

Ah I think I can see where everybody's getting hot under the collar...

All routes at a particular French grade should have a pretty similar E grade - because it's an overall grade and they all have similar characteristics; well protected, solid, etc. This is what Franco and I have been saying.

All routes at a particular E grade WILL NOT have a pretty similar French grade because some trad routes are bold, some are well protected, etc. This is what you and Adam have been saying.

However, all E grade trad routes of similar characteristics (i.e. same level of boldness, solidity, etc) should have a similar French grade. And I think what Franco is saying is this - all super-well protected, solid E8s should be about F8a.

Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Michael Hood:
But both of you are basing that on hypothetical routes rather than operating in the real world. I can chuck out examples of E7's that don't equal F8a and E8's that don't equal F8b until the cows come home. Stop arguing tenuous points about the finer points of the applicability of a grading scale and get down to the nitty gritty; the climbing, the moves.
RupertD - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

The point is, surely, that in the E grade system difficulty is traded off against boldness. E7 can be 8a and safe, or 7a+ and bold. The question is whether that trade off actually works in practice, does the boldness of a 7a+ E7 make it as hard as an 8a E7 to onsight? Some people feel that boldness is over-rewarded grade-wise, especially at the top end. Rhapsody is a case in point. If well protected 8c/+ is E9 then Rhapsody goes from E9 to E11 simply by virtue of falling onto 2 small wires (that have held numerous falls), rather than onto a bolt. The fall length is irrelevant as you don't hit the deck and sport routes can have falls just as big if you skip clips.

Looking at it another way if we assume the "E9 = bolted 8c+" and "E11= bolted 9a+" equivalencies are correct, if you can climb 8c+/E9, which is the easier way to get to E11/9a+? a) train like a bastard for 5 years so you can climb a 9a+, or b) simply climb an a 8c/+ above a small wire (that in reality is very unlikely to snap) and get E11?
Sean_J - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C: Actually, I can sort of see Franco's reasoning that an 8a would get about E7 if it had to be given a trad grade (an 8a would be dead safe, thus reducing the E-grade, but obviously have very hard moves compared to a typical E7, thus increasing the E-grade, so do these two factors not work in opposition and maybe sort of cancel each other out?). I'm assuming that the route's got plenty of bomber gear (bolts?) for the sake of argument. He's not suggesting that a trad E7 would be given f8a if it were retro-bolted, it would be more like f7a-b in most cases i'd guess. And yes I know that sport routes aren't the same as trad routes blah blah blah.
Adam Long - on 05 May 2010
In reply to RupertD:

Ru, surely you know the E grade reflects all the characters of a route, not simply difficulty vs boldness?

Look at it this way - which do you think would take Ondra longer to repeat - Overshadow, or Echo Wall?
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Sean_J - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Adam Long: Depends if you factor in snow-shovelling time surely?
RupertD - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Adam Long:

Yes, I simplified it a bit. On roadside crags like Dumby and Malham though the trade off is mostly boldness vs difficulty I would have thought.

As regards Overshadow vs Echo wall and Ondra, God knows, Echo wall really is one of those routes where numerous factors come into play.
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
> It's never black and white were climbing is concerned, unless you are off!
>
> People love to rank and categories - as on this thread - but it is ultimately futile.

Fascinating stuff...do go on.
Michael Hood - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B: Try reading my previous post more carefully, I said that all (say) F8a would pretty much get the same E grade, not that all E8 would get the same F grade, which is totally different.

Incidentally, how many really hard safe trad routes are there; i.e. ones where you could almost treat them like a bolted sport route. The only ones that comes to mind is the Requiem/Rhapsody wall - why...
1. If it's well protected naturally then ir's likely to have reasonable holds (a crack, pockets, etc).
2. To be hard with reasonable holds it has to be mega steep.
3. Most mega steep rock in the UK that is climable is limestone.
4. And this limestone is err - bolted as sport routes (even if there is natural gear available).
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to RupertD:

In reply to RupertD:

A great reply. You appear to have more brain cells than the rest of UKC put together.

Your point about over-grading boldness is right I feel, especially for headpoints, where in many ways it becomes irrelevent how bold a route is, as you wont fall off.

Beliefs about how boldness is over-graded soon change though, when confronted with a move below your limit, but with massive danger. It is no coincidence that most people's best onsight grade at sport is very similar to the top-end french grade for their onsight trad grade. For example a F7b climber might also flash E5, either well protected F7a+ or bold F6b+/c. Hence these feats are of a similar difficulty.
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Paul B:
> ....the nitty gritty; the climbing, the moves, the possibility of death if you get it wrong.

Moondance - on 05 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:

For everyone there is a level where the chance of you falling off is so remote that it becomes irrelevant. For you, me etc. that might be fairly low. For someone who onsights above F8b conssistenly I'd say its fairly darn high.

does nobody ever do california arete or whatever its called in the slate quarries?
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> headpoints, where in many ways it becomes irrelevent how bold a route is, as you wont fall off.

What, guaranteed? Sweet, I'll sling a rope down Indian Face tomorrow.
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:

Where in many ways it becomes irrelevant how bold a route is (except if it's very slippy or loose.
melonmike - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Nez:

I agree with Franco, I think claiming that top end sport climbers would have no issue with top end trad climbs does a great dis-service to the hard trad climbers who have put them up/repeated them.

If all trad routes were lead on 'safe' preplaced gear then the two disciplines would be comparable but they aren't. As has been said trad grades trade off some technical difficulty for the danger of the climbing, danger which requires a different mental strength than sport climbing, and if the trade off is assumed fair ( I realise people may argue it is not) then it is disrespectful to assume that any physically talented enough sport climber could waltz up a given trad route, particularly if they are attempting it onsight.

Adam Ondra is an amazingly talented sport climber but unless he one day decides to turn his hand to hard trad ascents it is quite ridiculous for people to just presume he would not struggle leading the hardest trad routes without pre=placed gear. Trad is significantly different to sport climbing and without examples of a person's achievements in both it is not possible to confidently determine how successful a transition a climber would make from one discipline to another.

What I will say is that Dave Macleod felt the need to be climbing F9a to be confident of success on Echo wall and claiming that any suitably hard sport climber could now go and lead that climb on questionable gear is dubious. Trad climbing requires something that sport climbing does not and nobody can be sure of someone having 'that' ability based on their success in a different discipline.
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> Where in many ways it becomes irrelevant how bold a route is (except if it's very slippy or loose.

So no one falls off routes on headpoint unless they're very slippy or loose?

That's not very exciting.
liz j on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
Hey Franco, tell me, do you compare yourself to Ondra when you are having a spotty teenage wet dream, or only when you've been eating too many mushrooms??
melonmike - on 05 May 2010
In reply to liz j:

Have you crawled out of Haston's ass and up Ondra's now?
MJ - on 05 May 2010
In reply to liz j:

Hey Liz, tell me, do you compare yourself to Haston when you are having a menopausal wet dream, or only when you've been eating too many brussel sprouts?

liz j on 05 May 2010
In reply to melonmike:
> (In reply to liz j)
>
> Have you crawled out of Haston's ass and up Ondra's now?

And you are still firmly up your own!!! Sheets still wet??
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to mods:

Perhaps a new forum should be considered for threads such as this once they've rumbled over the 300-post mark.

'Rocktalk Classics'?
liz j on 05 May 2010
In reply to MJ:
Sorry, Stevie who??
Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to RupertD)
>
> In reply to RupertD:
>
> A great reply. You appear to have more brain cells than the rest of UKC put together.

You have to be careful when you use the collective UKC as you are disrespecting even the person you are praising. Ru is a UKC forum user just like you.

Better to say that you disagree with a particular opinion on the thread.

Anyone with a brain cell knows that.

Michael Hood - on 05 May 2010
In reply to liz j:
> (In reply to MJ)
> Sorry, Stevie who??

MJ mentions Haston, but not his first name so I'm afraid you've been caught out saying "Stevie who".

But why as your first post on this thread (unless I've missed it in the 300 above) do you come on and insult someone? You may not agree with Franco or his unwillingness to "leave it" but I don't think he was being insulting in his posts, just arguing his opinion.
liz j on 05 May 2010
In reply to Michael Hood:
I apologise to Franco for any offence caused, I should have omitted the word 'spotty' and for that I am eternally sorry ;-)
john 284 - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

CAN WE TYPE IN BOLD - I'll add some lowercase
john 284 - on 05 May 2010
In reply to john 284:

That answers my question - thanks
MJ - on 05 May 2010
In reply to liz j:

"Sorry, Stevie who"??

Dougal?

I don't think Franco has criticised or idolised Ondra in any of his posts. He has merely pointed out that a top Sports climber wouldn't automatically be able to "crush" the hardest trad routes in the UK.

liz j on 05 May 2010
In reply to MJ:
A top sport climber would have more chance of 'crushing' the trad routes than someone who is weaker, less powerful and who can't climb as physically hard onsight.......

Let the summer begin!!
mark s - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Nez: anyone who compares cutting edge trad to cutting edge sport is living on the moon.sport is way ahead in terms of difficulty.some tradists on here seem to think that sport climbers can't do trad.that's bull shit.I don't know what trad routes say ondra has done but for someone who onsights 8c,no trad route in the uk would slow him down,even some scotish eliminate.using grade comparison charts is pointless,especially on grit routes.a few roaches routes for example-
Obsession fat,e7 6b would be f6b+/6c slabs really don't compare on charts
Doug e8 6c -f7a+ again another slab
Thing on a spring e6 7a -f7b that's a safe route,even that does not compare.
Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010


my dad's bigger than your dad na na na na na
Bulls Crack - on 05 May 2010
In reply to plexiglass_nick:

Le Grotte de Parisellas c'est formidable non?
Michael Ryan - on 05 May 2010


what I want to know is who are these so called. 'tradists' ?

But isn't it potentially far more dangerous to onsight some e4 e5 e 6s especially on them there dirty mountain crags- don't care how strong you are - than to headpoint.

But everyone knows that. Nial Grimer told me.
iceox - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
Must be rare and elusive if them there routes are dirty!
Ackbar - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Nez: Recently David Lama (a top level sports climber) came and climbed Parthian Shot (E9). A bit further back Dave Graham (a better sports climber than Lama) chose not to climb Kaluza Klein (E7) as he precieved it as too dangerous.

So being a top sport climber does not mean you can just piss up hard trad climbs, but it does happen from time to time.

Ondra has, to my knowledge, not shown any evidence that he would be able to climb a route such as Echo wall. Sure he'd probably do it in a few goes on top rope, but to lead it??? Probably not. It's a completely different skill set.
In reply to mark s:
> I don't know what trad routes say ondra has done but for someone who onsights 8c,no trad route in the uk would slow him down,

Indian Face?


Chris

iceox - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Trad or headpoint?
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to mark s:

I agree. I think Ondra could potentially onsight E9, hence why I'd be interested if he ever tried a bit of trad onsighting.


I still don't think he'd find E8s, E7 or even some E6s 'a walk in the park though'.


PS. what the hell is wrong with that Liz Lass?
stewieatb on 05 May 2010
In reply to Ackbar:
> (In reply to Nez)
> It's a completely different skill set.

I'd say more an equipment set. The equipment in question being balls the size of space hoppers.
mark s - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to mark s)
> [...]
>
> Indian Face?
>
>
> Chris

With this weeks performance from ondra.You can still sit there and think a f7b is going to trouble him?this is all pointless as I really doubt he'll be slogging up to cloggy any time soon.
In reply to mark s:

F7b in a certain death situation - there's the crux of the matter surely?


Chris
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:

You have basically explained what is wrong with this single minded argument from the sport climbers. F7b is apparently easy, ok. F7b onsight is a little harder, but still 8 grades below current limits. F7b in a death situation on hard to read rock is knocks a few grades off how hard it has to be to get to current limits. The fact it's a bit loose makes it even nearer current limits. Suddenly you realise that this E9 (a mere F7b/+) is still at/above current limits.

Danger might seem like it's not an issue from your armchairs, comparing F8c to F8c+, but when you're onsight on a big, moist cliff it has an effect and even as a reasonably bold climber I don't think it's overgraded.
In reply to Fr anco C:
>
>
> Danger might seem like it's not an issue from your armchairs, comparing F8c to F8c+, but when you're onsight on a big, moist cliff it has an effect and even as a reasonably bold climber I don't think it's overgraded.

I wasn't aware you had done Indian Face - good effort. Harder or easier than Pleasure Dome?


Chris
Franco Cookson on 05 May 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Bit harsh my beautiful peak punter chum. Everyone makes mistakes.
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
you seem to be assuming that the 'sport climbers' don't do any trad and thus 'our' point of view is solely from the armchair. I'll just point it out in case its not clear enough to you; thats not the case.
mark s - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C: reading the moves on an 8b/c where even holding on is beyond most people is not comparable to a route like indian face.being a good sport climber will get you up more trad routes than being a trad climber trying sport.
In reply to Fr anco C:

Who you calling a Peak Punter - I have also taken a 50' footer of Pleasure Dome!


Chris
Michael Hood - on 05 May 2010
In reply to mark s:
> being a good sport climber will get you up more trad routes than being a trad climber trying sport.

I think I can agree with this, but if Indian Face is that piss easy, how comes loads of sports climbers (who are operating way above F7b+) haven't done it; since anyone who does will pretty instantly make a name for themselves.

iceox - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Michael Hood:
Maybe they just like climbing what they like.
Paul B - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Michael Hood: unlike a lot of the other hard routes, its not about managing risk against skill etc. its purely down to whether or not that hold or the next will snap. Chancing these things instead of controlling them is a completely different game, Dave Macleod showed us that surely?
the baron on 05 May 2010 - cpc3-shef10-0-0-cust73.barn.cable.virginmedia.com
If you understand E grades, e.g. E for Effort/Extermination, they work for equally well for trad or sport - as a guide.

If you understand climbing, E becomes for Experience/Enjoyment, whatever grade - sport or trad.
hexcentric - on 05 May 2010
In reply to all:

Right, hands up. Who ISN'T a troll?
liz j on 05 May 2010
Jonny2vests - on 05 May 2010
In reply to Nez:

20,000 views for this thread. A record Mick? I feel the urge to categorize and make lists, climbing just isn't enough :)
franksnb - on 05 May 2010
In reply to thread:

chucking in my opinion!

to compare physical exertion ie difficulty you must ignore danger (both trad and sport can be dangerous in varying ways). agreed?

People who mainly do sport have a leaning toward respecting difficulty

People who are mainly tradders place a great deal of emphasis on a grey area based on loads of things (E??) but mostly danger.

so the two schools are always going to disagree.

F grades are not about pure difficulty where as an E grade is mixed and a technical grade is pure difficulty.

therefore you cannot compare an E grade with a F grade or a technical grade. you could compare H and F, but you would want one line done in both styles for a base line.

at the end of the day sport is about the moves more so than trad. but your not getting very far on a mountain of you can only clip bolts, so you miss out on the freedom side.

on a side note, I'm surprised to see the moderators/ukc reacting in a less than professional manner. i'm not surprised to see antagonisers who wont listen to others ideas...

Alun - on 06 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:

> Right, hands up. Who ISN'T a troll?

Haha! Quality. Reading Franco's posts is like rubbernecking a car-crash. You know you shouldn't, you know it's horrible, but you can't resist :P

Anwyay I was chatting in north wales a few years ago to a chap who'd recently onsighted a couple of E7s, his name's not important to the discussion, suffice it to say he's one of them local hero type people like wot Adam Long wrote an article about recently.

Anyway we were walking back from a day on Cloggy and I enquired to him just how it was possible to get confident enough to even think about onsighting E7, being that I'd onsighted my first E5 the day before and thought that I didn't really fancy much harder than that, thank you very much. His answer:

"Sport climbing. Do loads of sport climbing and get super fit, so that onsighting 7-something is par for the course. That way, E5 becomes fairly easy. E6 is a challenge, and E7 is possible."

Which ties in with what somebody else said higher up the thread - that most of the top trad climbers in the country do loads of sport climbing too.

Of course, Franco might argue that E7 is hardly 'cutting edge' trad, to which I would quote a line he used earlier in this thread back at him - how many E8's have been onsighted?

Anyway, it's all fun. I'm off to do Fiesta de los Biceps in Riglos on Saturday!
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=58962
http://bit.ly/bw7RIi
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to Alun:

This proves my point quite well actually. If you only need to be onsighting F7c to onsight cutting edge trad, then it is clear that there is a massive factor, away from the technical difficulty, that makes these routes hard.
Alun - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> If you only need to be onsighting F7c to onsight cutting edge trad, then it is clear that there is a massive factor, away from the technical difficulty, that makes these routes hard.

If that's your point, then nobody is ever going to disagree with it, as I would think it's pretty obvious.

What it ever had to do with Adam Ondra coming over to try Britain's hardest sport routes, I'll never know!
Serpico on 06 May 2010 - unallocated.star.net.uk
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> You have basically explained what is wrong with this single minded argument from the sport climbers.

The 'sport climbers' you're arguing with have far more trad experience than you.


Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to Serpico:

But clearly don't understand how Traditional grading works.

In reply to Alun: Exactly, why people feel the need to bring trad climbings apparent lack of difficulty into a discussion about a sport climber on holiday is beyond me.
Michael Ryan - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:
> (In reply to Serpico)
>
> But clearly don't understand how Traditional grading works.

Here's your starter for ten

Explain what traditional climbing is in the UK?

Define it.

Alun - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Fr anco C:

> Exactly, why people feel the need to bring trad climbings apparent lack of difficulty into a discussion about a sport climber on holiday is beyond me.

You started it, twpsin! Your very first post on this thread, before it descended into anarchy, was:

> I am very interested to see how hard he can technically move, i'm even more interested to see how hard he can climb.

Which was read by most people as a bit of a snipe.
MJ - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Alun:

Twpsin?

Twpsyn bach!!!!
Owen W-G - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

Why would a 17y old lad like Ondra want to climb death routes anyway? Or even mildly dangerous routes for that matter?

Why is danger so important to you?

It would seem Ondra is maybe the strongest and most technically gifted climbers of all time with the potential for taking what is possible on rock to the next level. Why would he want to risk throwing it all away by chancing it on some high e-numbered trad route like echo wall, just because he probably could get away with it? If I was Adam I'd be leaving hard alone and stick to what I'm v v good at.
Hardonicus - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Owen W-G:

To be honest if UK climbing is to have any chance of competing on European terms in hard sport we need more low grade bolted routes to 'bring people through'.

That way they will never have to waste their time on pointlessly dangerous trad.
ads.ukclimbing.com
hexcentric - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Hardonicus:

Didn't realise climbing was a competition?
Pittsburgh Windmill on 06 May 2010
In reply to liz j:
> (In reply to hexcentric)
> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/2498687548_232461ebfa_o.jpg
>
> Take your pick

You need to change your shampoo...
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to Alun:


Which was a reply to:

"every few years we get strong foreign wads coming over and tearing through the trad grades, but that we've been waiting for decades for someone to come and give our sport test pieces a go."

This ties closely to mick's question of what (trad) climbing is. I think it's about climbing rock in the best syle you can, relying on weaknesses the rock had for holds and protection. It does sound like a cliche to say that sport climbing isn't climbing, but whilst I do enjoy sport climbing, it is definitely morphing the rock into something very different from what the origional challenge set by the gods was.
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to Owen W-G:

I don't think he'll risk his neck for one moment. Why would he? What's the population of europe? And he's the best. I would be very interested to see how he'd cope though and I don't see how anyone couldn't enjoy trad.
hexcentric - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> morphing the rock into something very different from what the origional challenge set by the gods was.

You'll no be keen on clearing vegetation, removing loose rock, wearing out nut placements, snapping flakes, placing pegs, polishing footholds and abseiling off stakes then?

MattDTC on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
Amazing how many people have a knee jerk reation to what they think you said, as oppose to what you are saying.

A summary of the above discussion;

Franco says: "i wish people would stop banging on about how the top sports climbers could piss up all the hardest trad routes if only they wanted to, cos it simply isn't true"

various replys:
"stop insulting Ondra"
"you're wrong cos 9a+ is harder than 8a+"
"your wrong but i wouldn't lower myself to offer a reply"


But in reality franco is correct. Todays hardest climbs (sports and trad) are a reflection of what the "best" climbers can achieve.
Todays hardest sports routes are the hardest that can be achieved (so far) because no one is good enough to do anything harder.
Todays hardest trad routes are the the hardest that can be acheived (so far) because no one is good enough to do anything harder. Top sports climbers may climb technically harder, but they obviously don't have the skill set to allow them to climb that level of difficulty in dangerous positions, or they would already have done so and trad grades would be even harder.
Sport 9b and trad E11 are both top of the climbing game, and only the select few with either skill set can achieve those grades, but (at present) nothing more.
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:


First of all there is a huge difference between pulling a fern up and putting a bolt into the rock. As a rock climber you are actually drilling a hole in the medium that provides you with interest.

I'm against pegs in the main, but they still rely on natural fisures.

Polishing foot holds makes the challenge harder and isn't a conscience dicision.

Loose rock tends to fall off, like loose flakes, when you touch them. If you research my choss record, you'll see I've never preinspected routes to knock off loose bits.

abseiling off stakes has no effect on the challenge, as it's what you do to get to routes. You don't use them on routes.

All in all, a list full of poor arguments. Fern removal is the only thing that could be seen as reducing the challenge and it's pretty common sense, not like placing a bolt. Plus I think the gods would prefer their cliffs clean.
Alun - on 06 May 2010
In reply to MJ:
> Twpsin?

> Twpsyn bach!!!!

Ie wrth gwrs, fi yw'r twpsyn falle...! :D
hexcentric - on 06 May 2010
In reply to MattDTC:

In the words of Bob Dylan, you're in the wrong place my friend; you'd better leave.
Kid Spatula - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

Tiresome much?
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:

And there is the avoiding of the argument.

hexcentric - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

Franco Cookson: the Pope of Trad?
irish paul - on 06 May 2010
In reply to MattDTC:
> (In reply to Franco C)
> Top sports climbers may climb technically harder, but they obviously don't have the skill set to allow them to climb that level of difficulty in dangerous positions, or they would already have done so and trad grades would be even harder.


I would be of the opinion they probably do have the skill set, but choose not too. Frankly, i don't know why you would. But maybe thats just me...
hexcentric - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> And there is the avoiding of the argument.

He was making far too much sense.

tcashmore - on 06 May 2010
Don't want to appear as I'm not part of the wider cool climbing community, but does anyone know where the ubiquitous term 'wad' originates (or means - it seems to appear in this thread and others when referring to Ondra and others in particular). Cheers
In reply to MattDTC: Poor old Franco, so hard done by.

Have you voted yet Franco? You have strong opinions on many things. Does it extend to politics?
MattDTC on 06 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:

sorry
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to TobyA:

I have indeed.
Mike Stretford - on 06 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to Franco C)
>
> Franco Cookson: the Pope of Trad?

There's a long list of posters who seem desperate to define themselves through their trad evangelism. They seem to come and go, Franco (I hope you didn't give yourself that nickname!) is just the latest.

Rest of us just go out and climb trad (most of the time).
hexcentric - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Papillon:

I think young Franco has gone a step further. He proclaims to communicate the will of the gods. Of rock, presumably.

And it's TRAD.
ads.ukclimbing.com
In reply to MattDTC:

The point of contention arises because many people don't agree with your bold assertion that the top sport climbers "obviously don't have the [trad] skill set". You try and back this up with an assertion that if they did, trad grades would already be harder than the current E11.

I think this argument has one big flaw; a failure to realise that many climbers do not have the same motivations as you. Have you considered it possible that some of the best sport climbers have the skills to climb very hard trad; but simply choose not to?

Some anecdotal evidence that this might be the case; I witnessed Edu Marin climb a 9a in Spain. Because of his decision to skip clips to save energy, he climbed the crux facing a 50ft ground fall. On a 9a. By choice. If they were pre-placed wires, rather than bolts, what trad grade do you think that would get? This weekend I watched Ondra onsight the huge roof of Mandela at Kilnsey, and then immediately second it. Two 8bs in rapid succession, and because of the size of the roof he was effectively soloing much of the 6c climbing to the roof, and would have taken a massive 60ft swing if he'd fallen off the 8b. Those examples suggest that to dismiss sport climbers as lacking boldness is a bit naive.

Your argument also ignores current climbing standards in the mountains. 8a on loose rock and bad gear is regularly onsighted in the Dolomites. The Pou brothers have climbed 9a on big Walls with big falls.

It seems obvious to me from these examples that trad climbing in britain is held back by the terrible sport fitness of its main protagonists. Obviously it is true that it takes more to climb hard trad than merely being a good sport climber, but it's my opinion that many of the best sport climbers do have the skills required.
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to hexcentric)
> [...]
>
>
>
> Rest of us just go out and climb trad.


No you don't. There is this strange myth that loads of UKC just 'go out and do it'. They don't, they sit at home arguing on the internet, hence why we're all on ukc.

Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:


perhaps motivation to climb hard trad is one of the skills in that 'set'.

Often when i've been at my best sport fitness I haven't even dared set out on trad routes that I would have found much easier before.

The motivation and committment needed to get on trad routes is lost when doing a lot of sport, and perhaps there for mega-sport fitness is impossible to have, wholst having the psyche and confidence to get on trad in a way that means you can climb it efficiently and safely- hence why Ste mac fell off that E9.
MattDTC on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
Yeah, i take your point, and i think there's truth in it. But also in the States (plus europe to a lesser extent) there is a big trad elemet in climbing, and trad grades are no higher than the UK. It's abit like the free market, the lowest hanging fruit will always get picked first. ie. if trad was that easy and lagging so far behind, someone would have come along and upped the trad game long ago.
MattDTC on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
I would suggest taking time to develope the skill set to climb top end trad leaves you with less time/energy to put into pure climbing strength, and visa versa for sports climbers. Hence you can never have the best of both worlds. This probably accounts for why there is a difference in the top end sport and trad climbs.
ian vincent - on 06 May 2010
In reply to MattDTC:
"Todays hardest climbs (sports and trad) are a reflection of what the "best" climbers can achieve"

I think this is the crux of the matter and it is probably incorrect. When I think of quite a of the people putting up the harder trad routes I would not say they were the cutting edge. They have often gone on to trad as they got too old to be top sport climbers or they have used trad as a way to boost their profile because they were unlikely to do it through sport routes.

Ondra is at the top of the pile in the part of the sport which is really pushing physical difficuly. He has shown himself to be exceptional at all sorts of styles and rock types. An E7 to him must be the equivalent of a 7a climber soloing a Vdiff.
andy farnell - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to midgets of the world unite)
> The motivation and committment needed to get on trad routes is lost when doing a lot of sport, and perhaps there for mega-sport fitness is impossible to have, wholst having the psyche and confidence to get on trad in a way that means you can climb it efficiently and safely- hence why Ste mac fell off that E9.

I know a lot of people who do both hard trad and hard sport as the 'skills set' compliment each other. Having the 'go-for it' attitude of trad undoubtably helps when going for it on a sport route. Sports fitness undoubtably helps when pushing it on trad.

Ondra came here to climb the hardest sports routes in the county, not to climb trad. He may, by his own choice, come here and do some trad in the future, of course he may choose not to. That is his choice.

You choose to bang on about trad, that's your choice. I choose to climb sports routes, that is my choice.

Live and let live eh Franco?

Andy F

Oh btw, Ste fell off the E9 because it was wet.
Ramon Marin - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

I totally agree with you. I don't see much of a difference between trad pre-placed gear and the hard sport climbing happening in Naranjo or Dolimites. To be honest, I seen burlier falls on sport climbing than Dave Mac on E11 (although I know he placed the gear on lead). The boundary is hard to draw. I think if you are a committed climber, your attitude is similar whether you do trad or sport.
Mike Stretford - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to Papillon)
> [...]
>
>
> No you don't. There is this strange myth that loads of UKC just 'go out and do it'. They don't, they sit at home arguing on the internet, hence why we're all on ukc.

The cheek of it! I've got better things to do at home, I only post on here from work.
MattDTC on 06 May 2010
In reply to ian vincent:
> (In reply to MattDTC)
> When I think of quite a of the people putting up the harder trad routes I would not say they were the cutting edge. They have often gone on to trad as they got too old to be top sport climbers or they have used trad as a way to boost their profile because they were unlikely to do it through sport routes.

Surely a troll!
but if not, i'd repeat what i said above;

It's abit like the free market, the lowest hanging fruit will always get picked first. ie. if trad was that easy and lagging so far behind, someone would have come along and upped the trad game long ago.
Mike Stretford - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Papillon: Anyway, great to hear Ondra's been on Steve's routes. I imagine it's our unpredictable maritime climate that puts visitors off, so big up to those who throw caution to the wind and come over, sport or trad.
Serpico on 06 May 2010 - unallocated.star.net.uk
In reply to andy farnell:
> (In reply to Franco C)

>
> Oh btw, Ste fell off the E9 because it was wet.

The details:http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=48633

Ed F - on 06 May 2010
thread:

From what I've read of the thread (which isn't a lot), everyone is making the same points but managing to turn it into a argument.

(to generalise)

The moves on the cutting edge sport climbs are technically and physically more demanding than the moves on the cutting edge trad climbs. And therefore it stands to reason that, if there were no other factors involved then Ondra and co would 'rip them up'.

But all the other factors of trad that have been mentioned make the route objectively just as 'hard' as the hardest sport routes and thats why these sport climbers don't come and crush the trad.

No?
RupertD - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Ed Feldman:
> thread:

>
> But all the other factors of trad that have been mentioned make the route objectively just as 'hard' as the hardest sport routes and thats why these sport climbers don't come and crush the trad.
>
> No?

No, the accuracy of this statement is what everyone is arguing about.
neil the weak - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> Your point about over-grading boldness is right I feel, especially for headpoints, where in many ways it becomes irrelevent how bold a route is, as you wont fall off.

And yet you still bothered to place gear on that H7 you did recently, even through the boldness was irrelevant....


Could you just clarify which of the "very slippy" or "loose" category each of the following routes go into for me while you're at it, since they all seen headpoint falls.

Kaluza Klein
Rhapsody
Balance it is
Divided Years
Gaia
Achemine
Walk of Life
Trauma
Widdop Wall
Firestone
Bleed in Hell
Penal Servitude
The Zone
Crack and Slab

etc etc.....

neil the weak - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Ed Feldman: No, these factors don't make them as "hard". They make them easier but more dangerous. Some climbers (ie many) are just not that interested in climbing dangerous routes or routes where you spend more time fiddling with gear than actually doing moves.

For those people who climb for physical movement / as an athletic sport, the types of "hard" trad routes we have here are just not going to be very appealing in the same way as sport routes are not going to appeal to the "trad evalngelist" types.

Bill Davidson - on 06 May 2010
In reply to neil the weak:

'Likes'

:-)
In reply to Ed Feldman:

No, I think some people are seriously arguing that the other factors of trad mentioned are possibly over-valued in the grading system, and that the top sport climbers don't completely destroy UK trad because

a) some of them do indeed lack the necessary skill set, whilst
b) some of them possess all the skills and merely lack the motivation.

It's interesting to think about what would happen if people in category b) became motivated to climb UK trad, and this is where the argument has been focussed. My personal hunch is that the hardest trad climbs in the world are not in the UK, but on Europe's limestone walls. That's just a guess of course, but it's based on a more rounded experience of what's necessary to climb hardish trad and hardish sport than Franco (for example) possesses.

However, perhaps the more interesting way of looking at this subject is to consider the effect on UK trad standards. Franco's position is very common amongst both young and lower grade climbers; that trad climbing possesses some sacred purity and is 'real' climbing in a way that sport climbing is not. This leads them to devalue sports climbing and thus to lack the physical skills necessary to push standards forward. John Dunne understood this well; at a lecture in Kendal he made the point that the trad routes of the 80s and 90s were established by people who were *pushing* world sport climbing standards. These days our most physically capable sport climbers are several grades off the pace. Again, to use Franco as an illustration, will never climb as hard as he could if he embraced the world-class sport climbing he has nearby.

I also think that to put trad on a pedestal is a gross oversimplification and too blinkered an approach. I have done hard 'trad' climbs that were unadventurous clip-ups and sport routes with insecure climbing at the end of mind-bending runouts. Also, in the same way that some sport climbers lack the head skills to climb hard trad, many die-hard trad climbers find sport climbing extremely frightening, because there is often *less* gear, and frankly they are not used to climbing onsight that close to their physical limit.

Michael Gordon - on 06 May 2010
In reply to ian vincent:
An E7 to him must be the equivalent of a 7a climber soloing a Vdiff.

You're not serious?

Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to neil the weak:

i was wrong to say people don't fall off headpoints. Sorry. As for why I graded a route H7.... don't know. Seemed about as hard to headpoint as what I reckon an E7 would feel like.


I think we're getting somewhere now.

we need to discuss whether we think danger makes a route 'harder'. I personally think it does- hence I would say bold 7a - E6 is harder than safe 7a- E4. You obviously would say that the e6 isn't any harder?
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:


I think you're right. My biggest weakness is that I don't sport climb- mainly fed by my ego, that I don't want to rock up at Malham and be shit- shich I certainly would be.

What we need is people who are psyched for trad onsighting to get to be F9a sport climbers and then grades might be nudged up- but only nudged. E10 isn't going to get onsighted.
In reply to Franco C:

I think you're splitting hairs over the difference of 'harder'. Interestingly, for most of us I think the poorly protected Fr 7a *is* physically harder to climb. If you're sane, you'll be less relaxed, grip harder and get more pumped. The people who do that to a lesser extent are the climbers whose trad grade is closer to their physical limit.

Out of interest, what do you think of my example of Edu Marin climbing 9a with a potential ground fall; what's the difference between that and a headpoint of one of the steeper grit routes (apart from 7 full french grades)?
In reply to Franco C:

> What we need is people who are psyched for trad onsighting to get to be F9a sport climbers and then grades might be nudged up- but only nudged. E10 isn't going to get onsighted.

That's the nub of the disagreement. You're fond of using grading conversion charts, so mull this over. A totally safe E9 is 8c or 8c+. Both of these grades have been onsighted. Honestly, we're not far away from a 9a onsight, which if it were done on pre-placed wires instead of bolts would be an E10 onsight.

This is why I think you overvalue the boldness aspect of trad. Looking at physical difficulty alone and applying E grades to sport routes, E9 has *already* been onsighted, and is onsighted almost regularly by a small group of sport climbers on the continent.
Michael Gordon - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

> b) some of them possess all the skills and merely lack the motivation.

I think the above is a bit of a false distiction. If a climber doesn't have the required technical ability they won't get up a given route; if a climber doesn't have the required boldness they won't get up a given route; similarly if a climber has both of the above but not the motivation and drive to climb the route then they won't get up it.

Motivation is also essential - why is it being portrayed as less important?

Hard redpointing requires a lot of motivation for example - having the fitness and skill set is not enough.
In reply to Franco C:

Franco; if that's the only reason holding you back then I totally urge you to get over it. Sport climbing offers an experience that you can't get on trad. It'll improve your climbing, and it's probably going to be fun too.

Life's too short to avoid the things you're bad at. If I did that I'd never go trad climbing, or climb a slab. Some of my fondest climbing memories are doing the things I'm worst at.
In reply to Michael Gordon:

It's being portrayed as less important because the question posed is "what would happen if the world's best sport climbers took up trad climbing"? It's hard to imagine this happening if they weren't psyched for it!!

The pertinent question is, if they wanted to go trad climbing, would they be able to convert their superior technical ability into harder climbs. The answer has to be "only if they have a talent for bold climbing". My sole point is that it's possibly to possess this talent, and still not be interested in trad climbing...

shark - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C: What we need is people who are psyched for trad onsighting to get to be F9a sport climbers and then grades might be nudged up- but only nudged.


Chicken n' egg innit. If youre psyched for trad and do 100% trad you'll stay weak. JD probably took this just about as far as it could could go. If you are talented/psyched enough to get to climb 9a you'll probably aspire to climb...9a+ (and maybe a bit of trad for a variety and if you are injured and because the boyfriends' into it)

I'm sure there is a middle ground ie what most climbers these days do and at the top end represented by Dave Mac, James Mc and Steve Mac when he's minded to.

Anyway unless you want to go down a blind alley you need to do is mix in a bit of sport (as well as the bouldering and training) otherwise as Stu says you are limiting your trad potential.
In reply to Franco C:

> I have indeed.

Well don't go all coy on us suddenly! Spill. Which party is best likely to maintain the true British trad tradition?
In reply to midgets of the world unite: And didn't Huber solo one of his 8c or 8c+ routes (at the Austrian crag called something waterfall) about 15 year ago?
Michael Gordon - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> It's being portrayed as less important because the question posed is "what would happen if the world's best sport climbers took up trad climbing"? It's hard to imagine this happening if they weren't psyched for it!!
>
> The pertinent question is, if they wanted to go trad climbing, would they be able to convert their superior technical ability into harder climbs. The answer has to be "only if they have a talent for bold climbing". My sole point is that it's possibly to possess this talent, and still not be interested in trad climbing...

Might I suggest then that without this motivation that some of these climbers clearly do not possess, they are simply not up to climbing hard trad routes? Regardless of how bold they may be, they are just not up to the task?

The main point to be made therefore is not that they could well be capable of climbing these routes if they wanted to; it's that they don't want to and therefore are not capable.
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

> "what would happen if the world's best sport climbers took up trad climbing"?

And following on from my previous post, is Alex Huber the obvious answer to that question?
Michael Gordon - on 06 May 2010
In reply to TobyA:

I think it was an 8B+

Pretty amazing nonetheless!
In reply to Michael Gordon:

even as an attempted semantic point your argument is weak. I am capable of forcing myself to be sick. I do not want to.
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I think it was [only] an 8B+

Oh Alex! You've let us down! ;-)

Wikipedia suggests it was "Kommunist" 5.14a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMCofBKTZlM


Michael Gordon - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> even as an attempted semantic point your argument is weak. I am capable of forcing myself to be sick. I do not want to.

"capable of forcing" is not the same as having the motivation to do something. To be capable of something truely difficult you have to want to do it.

Forcing oneself to be sick is not difficult and requires little in the way of effort.

Michael Gordon - on 06 May 2010
In reply to TobyA:

Just thought I'd be accurate about it. I did also say it was amazing!
neil the weak - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

> we need to discuss whether we think danger makes a route 'harder'. I personally think it does- hence I would say bold 7a - E6 is harder than safe 7a- E4. You obviously would say that the e6 isn't any harder?



Sort of? I agree the E6 will "feel" harder, but it isn't actually harder climbing is it? It is really the same climbing in a more intimidating position which changes how it feels to the climber doing it.

How much "harder" it is will vary wildly from person to person as some folk (usually but not always young men....) are much better at sticking their necks out than others. I know some people who climb bold routes very well indeed and usually think that they are very easy for the grade (or overgraded) becasue the boldness doesn't affect them very much. Other people (like me :( ) on other hand find onsighting bold stuff very hard indeed when they try (I mostly don't any more, I just don't enjoy getting terrified so don't bother with those kind of routes now).


Would be interesting to know which E8s (for instance) get more ascents out the bold ones or the safe but very very hard ones. I suspect (no evidence really?) it is the bold ones (which would suggest they are "easier") because people can stick their necks out and get up them when they just wouldn't be able to do the climbing on the hardest ones at all.
In reply to Michael Gordon:

>
> "capable of forcing" is not the same as having the motivation to do something. To be capable of something truely difficult you have to want to do it.
>

Now we really are straying off the path, but you're still wrong. You can be capable of doing something truly difficult, not want to do it, and still do it. For example, you can do it under duress.

More importantly, to currently lack motivation for something is not the same as to be incapable of having the motivation to do something.
johncoxmysteriously - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Exactly.

'[insert name of sport wad here] would piss Indian Face' is a meaningless statement just in grammatical terms. 'would' is a conditional, and unless you know what the hidden 'if' is, you're just making a noise.

I've often noticed how difficult it is to think unless you understand grammar, notably with my firm's trainees. This thread is kinda proving it.

Personally I suspect that if the conditional is 'could be bothered to walk up to Cloggy', or 'fancied making a name for themselves with a quick ascent in a different discipline', then [insert sport wad] would be likely to end up crying for his mummy. If on the other hand it's 'decided to spend a couple of years building up for it by trad on-sighting and psychological training', then we might see something interesting, but the evidence isn't really there.

Sport climbers dismissing Indian Face as snappy, by the way, piss me off. I've climbed on this wall and as mountain crags go it's pretty solid, and I strongly doubt EF is much different. It's for sure less snappy than North Stack wall. This derives solely from Dave M's comments, and as to those, (a) he subsequently accepted he wasn't quite on the true line, and (b) even a hero like Dave M can get a bit psyched out and start making excuses to himself.

Another thing that pisses me off is people saying 'it's all climbing' as though this were in any way relevant or interesting. Marathons and the 100 metres are both running, but that doesn't mean they're very similar disciplines. I'm looking at you, Mick Ryan.

jcm
Martin Haworth on 06 May 2010
In reply to Nez: I'm going to regret this.
I think Franco's arguement is quite reasonable. Trad climbing has some elements and skill requirements to it that some sports climbers just cant deal with.
I'm sure we all know climbers personally who can rip it up at the wall and on well bolted sports crags but put them on a trad route 5 grades easier than their sports grade and they are jibbering wrecks.
The point is that Ondra(or some other top sport climber) has the strength to on sight E10... but has he got head?
We won't find out because Ondra probably isn't intested in our trad routes, but if he(or anyone) did come and on sight a handful of trad E10's it would be more newsworthy than his visit last week.
(I personally doubt he's got what it takes for UK trad test pieces).
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Michael Gordon - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)

You can be capable of doing something truly difficult, not want to do it, and still do it. For example, you can do it under duress.

So Ondra would have been capable of climbing 9b standard without having the desire to do so?

> More importantly, to currently lack motivation for something is not the same as to be incapable of having the motivation to do something.

However you define it you still lack the motivation. If you get it back then fine - you will climb better and will have more chance of making the crucial difference on a hard route.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

you're right; you are going to regret this ;)

Your first point is well made and well taken.

That it would have been more newsworthy is a point of personal preference; both your hypothetical scenario and what actually happened represent the biggest achievements ever made on british rock, so are both equally newsworthy, no?

But on what evidence do you doubt he has what it takes for UK trad test pieces? Is it on the stated evidence of his boldness above? Is it on his incredible form on scary alpine routes?
In reply to Michael Gordon:

If you can't grasp that being capable of doing something is separate from wanting to do it, then you should read John Cox's excellent post above carefully.
duncan - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Excellent posts Stu.



Franco:

Leaving aside for a moment the possibility that sport climbing could actually be fun... It is universal practice to learn new skills in a relatively risk-free environment and then 'harden' these skills by gradually upping the danger. Jet pilots learn in flight simulators and slow propeller-planes. High-divers and gymnasts practice new routines on trampolines. This is far more effective than repeating easier routines in a dangerous environment thinking you will eventually become more skillful.

Sport climbing done properly (not "trad. climbing on bolts" as practiced by myself and many other Brits.) is a brilliant way to learn to climb harder, get fitter, and gain insight into how much more climbing you have in you even when you are pumped stupid (far more than most people realise).

Judging by your posts on here, your limiting factor is not boldness. The big trad. leads you aspire to need considerable fitness and excellent movement efficiency. Sport-climbing is the best, most specific training for these. And it can be great fun too, even if, like me, you are completely rubbish at it.
johncoxmysteriously - on 06 May 2010
In reply to duncan:

>and gain insight into how much more climbing you have in you even when you are pumped stupid (far more than most people realise).

This always interests me. People always say this. My experience however is that once you're pumped, no matter whether you're just above a bolt or fifteen feet above dodgy gear, pretty much the next thing that is going to happen is that your hands will open involuntarily and you're going to take to the air. So I've always assumed it was just bullshit. It occurs to me however that his view was based on the assumption that if one were fit and/or strong (neither of which I've never been) then the effect would be to delay the moment at which one felt pumped.

It occurs to me, though, that perhaps it isn't? Maybe you still feel pumped at the same time, but after that point you can hang on longer? Anyone been both weak and strong and different times and like to tell me?

jcm
Michael Gordon - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Sorry but I read jcm's post and didn't see how it related to our discussion. If a given sport climber "decided to spend a couple of years building up for it (a hard trad lead) by trad on-sighting and psychological training" I think a little motivation would be involved in this?!

Mike Stretford - on 06 May 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to duncan)
>
> It occurs to me, though, that perhaps it isn't? Maybe you still feel pumped at the same time, but after that point you can hang on longer? Anyone been both weak and strong and different times and like to tell me?
>
> jcm

In my experience the effect of getting stronger is that the pump is delayed, or hopefully avoided for the duration of the climb.

MattDTC on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> If you can't grasp that being capable of doing something is separate from wanting to do it, then ...

I think the difference is obvious, but trying to apply this logic to a situation where it doesn't fit makes a nonsense.

To say that "sports climbers could jump on the worlds hardest trad routes and do them with ease but for the fact that they just aren't motivated to do so" is a bit lame. In the same way that if I said I could jump to the moon but i'm not motivated is lame. The fact is that history has presented plenty of time (many decades) for top sports climbers to be "motivated" to go destoy the top trad routes and indeed add trad routes a couple of grades harder (since existing trad routes are so easy), but this just doesn't happen. Why? Because top end trad is damn hard, indeed, as hard as the worlds top climbers can achieve. How you want to define hard is upto you, but the evidence that no one can do better is out there - cos no one has.
andy farnell - on 06 May 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Excellent posts John, and Midgets.

As someone who has come from a trad background and now climbs almost exclusively sport, I can honestly say that if I was put in a situation where I had to climb my hardest trad routes again I would find them much easier than when I first did them.

Sport climbing has massively improved my fitness and technique (jamming cracks excluded, but I was alway's crap at then anyway). I've done many a sport route where I've skipped clips either because I was too pumped or couldn't find a good place to clip.

Getting pumped when sport climbing has trained me to a) rest better and b) climb further when pumped.

Andy F
In reply to MattDTC:

well, you've said the same thing as you said above, but in different words. The point is that you assume some of the world's top climbers have been trad climbing.

The difference between saying the top sport climbers *could* climb the hardest trad with ease and saying that you could jump to the moon if you were only arsed is that one is possibly true and the other is just silly.

You don't know why the top sport climbers haven't climbed the world's hardest trad routes. It might be because they can't, it might be because they haven't tried. At least some of them certainly haven't tried.

If no-one can do better, 'cos no-one has, how do world records get broken?
Adam Long - on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

It amuses me that everyone is speaking theoretically, as if there foreign 9a climbers have never come to Britain and tried trad. Well they have, and the reults have been mixed - sometimes very impressive, sometimes rather less so. Especially when you consider gritstone, which can favour those with the right background but be downright embarrassing for some with a solely euro-sport-limestone background.

Likewise, some of the best british trad climbers have been to europe, and put in none-too-shabby performances on the big mountain routes put up by the best 9a climbers.

So overall, despite lacking a coterie of top sport climbs, somehow our top routes and climbers seem to compete fine. Perhaps that is because there is a lot more to british trad than this ludicrous assumption that its just like sport climbing, but bolder.

On the other hand, you have to consider that Ondra is in a league of his own. I don't think there should be any doubt that if he chose to put the time in, he could be very good at any climbing discipline. But that's not to say he will - just look at Sharma. All that matters is what actually gets done, not what internet pundits imagine what could be done.
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> It occurs to me, though, that perhaps it isn't? Maybe you still feel pumped at the same time, but after that point you can hang on longer? Anyone been both weak and strong and different times and like to tell me?
>
> jcm

That's not been my experience of getting fitter; it actually becomes possible to keep climbing with a moderate pump. Indeed, the best onsights are the ones where you desperately try to keep on the right side of a terminal pump, just managing to recover enough to keep going, one move at a time...
shark - on 06 May 2010
In reply to andy farnell: As someone who has come from a trad background and now climbs almost exclusively sport, I can honestly say that if I was put in a situation where I had to climb my hardest trad routes again I would find them much easier than when I first did them.


Speaking from the same position I think a period of getting used to trad again would be required first - say 6 months - in which time I would also try to at least maintain strength/fitness at the same time.

There was an intersting article many years ago when Mike Owen described trying to achieve this balance in a year when he was doing E7's and Sport 8's.
In reply to Adam Long:

I don't agree Adam. As you say, Ondra is in a league of his own, so the experience of people like Nico Favresse is only slightly relevant.

And the comparison between bold trad climbing and bold sport climbing is only 'ludicrous' if you compare a narrow idea of british trad (e.g grit) with a narrow idea of sport climbing (steep limestone). If you compare (say) Pembroke or Gogarth to limestone walls in Switzerland or Northern Spain the comparison is appropriate, i'd say.

And lastly, what is hypothetically possible is important, because it points the way to what will, one day, actually get done...
duncan - on 06 May 2010
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

John, you're a boulderer / occasional grit high-baller so your base fitness is poor. Getting fitter in my experience means the progression from being a bit pumped to complete failure occurs much more slowly. If, like you, you are used to the idea that getting pumped means falling off soon after, you need to adjust to what your new-found fitness allows you to achieve. Training physiology and psychology go hand-in-hand.

If you wanted to get up Right Wall, to pick a random example, clearly you are brave enough and strong enough already. Sport-climbing would be by far the most efficient way to get the fitness required. Once you are on-sighting long vertical F6c+ fairly consistently, you'd breeze it.
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

I've not read all these posts, but has someone made the point that Ondra is Czech? I.e. he cut his teeth on Czech sandstone, which, in my experience, is some of the boldest rock climbing out there.
MattDTC on 06 May 2010
> (In reply to MattDTC)

> The difference between saying the top sport climbers *could* climb the hardest trad with ease and saying that you could jump to the moon if you were only arsed is that one is possibly true and the other is just silly.


No the point is that you are talking theoretically, instead of looking at the reality of the situation.


> If no-one can do better, 'cos no-one has, how do world records get broken?

cos no one has done better upto this point, just like a world record is the best at this point in time, cos no one can do better. Obviously in the future grades (and world records) will be pushed.



In reply to Tom Briggs - Jagged Globe:

When people talk about 'trad', they should differentiate between trad on-sighting and headpointing. Fashionable though headpointing is, it is basically sport climbing and requires similar skills and tactics.

On-sight trad climbing at the kind of level, say, James McCaffie operates, is not a given whether or not you are Adam Ondra. It's probably 50% physical, with the other 50% made up by a load of other skills. Yes, of course there is some crossover with sport climbing on-sight, but putting yourself in a position of uncertainty where a slight slip on a piece of lichen might kill you is not achievable by everyone, 9b arms or not.
MattDTC on 06 May 2010
In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Now you're muddying your arguments;

> And the comparison between bold trad climbing and bold sport climbing is only 'ludicrous' if you compare a narrow idea of british trad (e.g grit) with a narrow idea of sport climbing (steep limestone). If you compare (say) Pembroke or Gogarth to limestone walls in Switzerland or Northern Spain the comparison is appropriate, i'd say.

Sure the two arms of the sport merge into one another, but that doesn't dilute the argument of this thread.


> And lastly, what is hypothetically possible is important, because it points the way to what will, one day, actually get done...

You were hypothesising about what climbers could do now if they were motivated, not about the future.

MattDTC on 06 May 2010
In reply to Tom Briggs - Jagged Globe:

> On-sight trad climbing at the kind of level, say, James McCaffie operates, is not a given whether or not you are Adam Ondra. It's probably 50% physical, with the other 50% made up by a load of other skills. Yes, of course there is some crossover with sport climbing on-sight, but putting yourself in a position of uncertainty where a slight slip on a piece of lichen might kill you is not achievable by everyone, 9b arms or not.

Exactly, its a different skill set, and to say you can just walk up and achieve the top level of trad when coming from a sports climbing background is incorrect.

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shark - on 06 May 2010
In reply to MattDTC:> Exactly, its a different skill set, and to say you can just walk up and achieve the top level of trad when coming from a sports climbing background is incorrect.

Much more likely than the converse though (given a period of induction).

The Hubers got a Yosemite ticklist to work their way up through and the rest is history.
scooott - on 06 May 2010
In reply to MattDTC:
If a 9a climber fails on an E7 or whatever, it's probably not because he was
a) pumped crazy
b) couldn't technically do the moves
c) didn't have the finger strength or upper body strength.

etc.

It's probably because he got scared and bottled it. That doesn't make the climbing technically or physically harder. It just makes the route more bold, and the climbing feels mentally harder to commit to.

Not exactly speaking from experience, but isn't this stating the obvious?

If mr 9a had the head, he *could* crush any route on rock, most likely.
-he can do the moves, technically
-he has the strength, stamina, finger strength, whatever

*If he had the head*.

Toerag - on 06 May 2010
In reply to everyone: You should all go out and read Jerry Moffat's book, it'll give you all the answers on sport vs. trad and how each can improve the other.

On the whole E-grade thing the problem stems from the lack of granularity in UK tech grades - UK6b spans a huge range of French grades. In some ways the American R&X rating scheme is significantly better than the E grade system. Perhaps the solution is to combine the two to have something like
E4 6b = safe with relatively few 6b moves
E6 6b = safe with lots of 6b moves
E4 6b R = bold but few 6b moves
E6 6b R = bold and sustained 6b
andy farnell - on 06 May 2010
In reply to shark:
> >
> Speaking from the same position I think a period of getting used to trad again would be required first - say 6 months - in which time I would also try to at least maintain strength/fitness at the same time.
>
>
The last time I did any serious amount of trad was over 10 years ago. Your right in that I may take a bit of time to 'get my head in', but not much, Not 6 months. The skills learnt as a youth haven't left me, they've just been pushed to one side.

Andy F
Martin Haworth on 06 May 2010
In reply to andy farnell: Andy, what is interesting about your profile is that the majority of your best climbing experiences are Trad!
Maybe it's time you went back to your routes(sorry!).
Maybe your not so different to Franco.
andy farnell - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Martin Haworth: Actually there's a fairly even split between sport and trad. Also it's been a while since I updated my profile.

Andy F
andy farnell - on 06 May 2010
In reply to andy farnell: And I'm nothing like Franco!

Andy F
Andrew Smith - on 06 May 2010
In reply to andy farnell: So It wasn't you I saw at Pex in Ron Hills?
andy farnell - on 06 May 2010
In reply to andyyyy: I've never owned Ron Hills. Pink and black vertical stripped lycra leggings (in 1989), but not RH's.

Andy F
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to andyyyy:


Who is this 'franco' chap?
Pittsburgh Windmill on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C: So, you're banned under your real name, creep about as Alan Manker for a few days then slowly but surely change your user name (in wee stages) to your real name again...

What's it all about?
Moondance - on 06 May 2010
In reply to Tom Briggs - Jagged Globe: yeah that point was made. I'd have to agree, the Czech sport climbing I've done was frankly terrifying.
slacky on 06 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to midgets of the world unite)
>
>
>
> What we need is people who are psyched for trad onsighting to get to be F9a sport climbers and then grades might be nudged up- but only nudged. E10 isn't going to get onsighted.

Watch On-Sight, and pay attention to the section with Nico Farvesse (?sp)
Franco Cookson on 06 May 2010
In reply to St. Paul Phantom:
> (In reply to Franco C) So, you're banned under your real name, creep about as Alan Manker for a few days then slowly but surely change your user name (in wee stages) to your real name again...
>
> What's it all about?

The craic
aln - on 07 May 2010
In reply to Franco C: Adam Ondra, what's he ever done at Scugdale?
orge - on 07 May 2010
Has this one finally dried up then?
Epic!

J
MattDTC on 07 May 2010

r.i.p
KarlH - on 07 May 2010
In reply to aln:
> (In reply to Franco C) Adam Ondra, what's he ever done at Scugdale?

Scugdale <snigger>

What's he ever done on Southern Sandstone!
Morgan Woods - on 07 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

strange thread but when it comes down to it you may be on the right track but in the wrong way......boldness may be overly "rewarded" but it also may be what is overly represented in the rock available in the UK ie Rhapsody which is better protected than some routes has to take a fairly eliminate "path" to attain its level of difficulty.....maybe there just aren't that many well protected hard (ie E8/8a and above) trad lines out there.
Tris - on 07 May 2010
In reply to Morgan Woods:
> .....maybe there just aren't that many well protected hard (ie E8/8a and above) trad lines out there.

Can't be too many that are well protected/safe.. one that sticks out is Mission Impossible (E9 7a - 8a+/8b)

Others?
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Morgan Woods - on 07 May 2010
In reply to Tris:

yeah that is a good example....i'm not sure did steve mac give that a go as well?
johncoxmysteriously - on 07 May 2010
In reply to Tris:

That's basically a sport route, though - six pegs and not much else, isn't it?

jcm
Michael Gordon - on 07 May 2010
In reply to Tris:

The Big Issue and Divided Years?
Ackbar - on 07 May 2010
In reply to Nez: Looks like Franco is right after all. Ondra says that he would not want to onsight any route with ground fall potential.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=2747

So to summaries, top class sport climbers are not all able to "piss" up hard trad climbs.
catt on 07 May 2010
In reply to Ackbar:

Wrong, better to say "top class sport climbers are not all able to "piss" up hard dangerous/death potential trad climbs."

It can be hard, without needing to deck or die on it.
Andrew Smith - on 07 May 2010
In reply to catt:
> (In reply to Ackbar)

Or better to say "top class sport climbers could "piss" up hard dangerous/death potential trad climbs, but choose not to? :)

Cheers

Andy


MattDTC on 07 May 2010
In reply to andyyyy:

Behold! The thread has risen from the dead, and is now eating its own tail.
We're all doomed...
Andrew Smith - on 07 May 2010
In reply to MattDTC: No intentions, honest! Good interview in any case..
Michael Hood - on 07 May 2010
In reply to andyyyy: Or more correct to say "top class sport climbers generally choose not to see whether they could "piss" up hard dangerous/death potential trad climbs"

Great interview, AO comes over as a nice young man who's just really into his climbing. I think it's great that he wants to do routes that have some historical significance.
Bulls Crack - on 07 May 2010
In reply to Michael Hood:
> (In reply to andyyyy) Or more correct to say "top class sport climbers generally choose not to see whether they could "piss" up hard dangerous/death potential trad climbs"
>
> Great interview, AO comes over as a nice young man who's just really into his climbing. I think it's great that he wants to do routes that have some historical significance.

I don't recall him doing 3PS
ksjs - on 10 May 2010
In reply to TobyA: sorry to resurrect this thread when it had quietly died (it is though good catchup reading for a lunchtime) but did i see a film a few years back at Kendal where he goes back to solo this in the depths of winter? iirc he does it and theres some brushing freshly fallen snow from the holds just prior or during the ascent. godlike. or am i making this all up?
GrahamD - on 10 May 2010
In reply to Ackbar:


> So to summaries, top class sport climbers are not all able to "piss" up hard trad climbs.

No. Just one top sport climber. You couldn't say yhe same for, say, Alex Huber.

Ackbar - on 10 May 2010
In reply to GrahamD: Sorry but don't understand your point.
GrahamD - on 10 May 2010
In reply to Ackbar:

You seem to be extrapolating from the fact that one top sport climber isn't interested in dangerous trad (not trad per se)to stating that ALL top sport climbers aren't interested.
melonmike - on 10 May 2010
In reply to GrahamD: He said "top class sport climbers are not all able to" and you have twisted that to him saying "all top class sport climbers are not able to". Those two sentence fragments mean completely different things; this thread is full of people altering the meaning of what other people have said.
stewieatb on 10 May 2010
In reply to melonmike:
> this thread is full of people altering the meaning of what other people have said.

Welcome to the internet.
Tyler - on 10 May 2010
In reply to melonmike:

> He said "top class sport climbers are not all able to" and you have twisted that to him saying "all top class sport climbers are not able to". Those two sentence fragments mean completely different things; this thread is full of people altering the meaning of what other people have said.

and you are twisiting it to be "some top class sport climbers....blah.....blah...". In fact he said neither all nor some but in the context of what he said before it would be disingenous of Ackbar to claim that if he at least meant the majority if not all.
Ackbar - on 10 May 2010
In reply to Nez:

It's all very well to speculate about what people can and can't do. But how about some evidence?

Now just to clarify, I am answering those who suggest that top sport climbers would have no trouble climbing UK's hard, bold trad routes.

First of all, in the video of Steve McClure climbing Elderstatesman(?) he says that he does not do fear. Now obviously he is being a bit modest as the route he does still looks scary enough, but that is what he says. As far as I am aware (although I could be wrong) our top sport climber has not climbed any high level bold trad routes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv72RJD6jLo

Secondly, Dave Graham on his 2008 visit to the UK decided not to climb Kaluza klein, even though he was inspired by the line. He said he didn't want to f#%k himself up (it was on the video on this link but you can't see the video anymore so just have to trust me:-D ). Now Kaluza klein is around F7c. That is some way below F9a+.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=1346



stewieatb on 10 May 2010
In reply to Ackbar:
>As far as I am aware (although I could be wrong) our top sport climber has not climbed any high level bold trad routes.

Didn't he have a go at Rhapsody a while back?
Kid Spatula - on 10 May 2010
In reply to Nez:

He climbed Rhapsody in 2 goes.
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billydekid1974 on 11 May 2010 - cpc5-aztw13-0-0-cust150.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com
In reply to Franco C:
Was just looking at photos a bland looking line called something like 'The Hypocracy of Moose'. Looked just like a boulder problem really but some guy seemed to think that this climb seriously warranted a rope, gear and lots of E grades. People have been soloing boulder problems for decades all over the world considerably harder and higher than this and some before bouldering mats were even used.
The post is about sport climbing, not trad or soloing or bouldering. Ondra is phenomenal at SPORT CLIMBING and that is mainly what he does. It is great that he took the time to visit the UK and try some of the harder sport lines available and that he had fun in the process.
GrahamD - on 11 May 2010
In reply to billydekid1974:

>Ondra is phenomenal at SPORT CLIMBING and that is mainly what he does.

Actually no slouch at bouldering either.
GrahamD - on 11 May 2010
In reply to melonmike:

> this thread is full of people altering the meaning of what other people have said.

Fair cop. I'm sure a lot of people do what I just did and reply to a scan read post on what you thought you read :-)

Franco Cookson on 11 May 2010
In reply to billydekid1974:

People don't boulder things with the fall that there is on the hypocrisy of moose. If you fell off the top move without gear you'd fall 20 metres. Go try it if you like, you chump.

Secondly, read my posts. Where in them did I state he should not be trying sport routes?

jon on 11 May 2010
In reply to GrahamD:

I find it interesting that when visiting top climbers come to GB and climb some gritstone routes, no-one bothers to ask 'I wonder how they'd do on our limestone sport routes'. But when someone actually does come and piss up a bunch of the hardest best sport routes, all that seems to come out of it is an argument about how he'd fare on British trad (that probably means grit anyway...) Bizarre.
Jonny2vests - on 11 May 2010
In reply to Kid Spatula:
> (In reply to Nez)
>
> He climbed Rhapsody in 2 goes.

Not quite!

bouldery bits - on 11 May 2010
In reply to billydekid1974:
> (In reply to Franco C)
> Was just looking at photos a bland looking line called something like 'The Hypocracy of Moose'. Looked just like a boulder problem really but some guy seemed to think that this climb seriously warranted a rope, gear and lots of E grades. People have been soloing boulder problems for decades all over the world considerably harder and higher than this and some before bouldering mats were even used.


I wouldn't look at Stanage then, you'll have a heart attack.
shark - on 11 May 2010
In reply to jon:

Its not that bizarre. The majority of Brit climbers fundamentally regard trad climbing as a superior activity, or at least more interesting, because it is that part of the sport they engage in most often and can relate to.

What they are failing to appreciate with this mindset is that Ondra doesn't need to achieve or prove himself at trad because he probably doesnt see it as inherently superior and he is already achieving at a stratospheric level in what he does.
jon on 11 May 2010
In reply to shark:
> (In reply to jon)
>
> >
> What they are failing to appreciate with this mindset is that Ondra doesn't need to achieve or prove himself at trad because he probably doesnt see it as inherently superior and he is already achieving at a stratospheric level in what he does.

Absolutely. And with the 'trad is superior' idea, I agree with you too, but I find it sad that people still hold dear the notion that Ian McNaught Davis famously articulated 30 or more years ago... 'climbing's about dying. If you're not prepared to die you shouldn't go climbing'. I'm sure those people would deny that, but holding up a solo ascent of Meshuga, for instance, as the be all and end all, is surely saying just that. I'm sure Ondra climbs sport routes because he enjoys it (and is very good at it) - not because he's afraid to climb trad.

Alun - on 11 May 2010
In reply to shark:
> Its not that bizarre. The majority of Brit climbers fundamentally regard trad climbing as a superior activity, or at least more interesting, because it is that part of the sport they engage in most often and can relate to.

> What they are failing to appreciate with this mindset is that Ondra doesn't need to achieve or prove himself at trad because he probably doesnt see it as inherently superior and he is already achieving at a stratospheric level in what he does.

Amen.

Now can we all go home?!
Rich Kirby - on 11 May 2010
In reply to shark:
> (In reply to jon)
>
> The majority of Brit climbers fundamentally regard trad climbing as a superior activity

Well yes, cos it is;-)
>
> What they are failing to appreciate with this mindset is that Ondra doesn't need to achieve or prove himself at trad because

......he isn't interested
Jonny2vests - on 11 May 2010
This thread is about 8a+ to read onsight without resting on the keyboard. I've worked it a fair bit, and I can read all the posts but I'm struggling to link it together. Clicking is a real problem in the third quarter.

If this thread was trad (letters to OTE), it would take years to complete. Anyone hazard a guess at a grade?

nb - on 11 May 2010
In reply to shark:

Exactly! Many Brits like to think that trad-climbing is superior because it's much easier to reach a feel-good grade with trad. If you're onsighting E5 you're doing pretty well really, whereas if you're onsighting F7a you are being very average (in my experience these are similar achievements). Franco has already admitted that he doesn't climb sport because it's not good for his ego. We can only assume that he does trad because it is.

Continental climbers aren't motivated by climbing dangerous British routes because they haven't grown up in this climbing culture. You can only risk death and injury on something you consider worthwhile. Unfortunately it's all too often about gaining respect in a peer group. How many British climbers solo 8th grade sport climbs HIGH above hard ground? This practise is quite common amongst continental 'sport' climbers and has been since sport climbing kicked off in the 80s. That doesn't mean that British climbers aren't capable of doing it, just that they're not motivated to do so. They don't consider that they have much to gain, just plenty to lose. Now give a solo ascent of a 30m F8b+ an E-grade (for a hypothetical onsight ascent of course) and there might be more takers.

GrahamD - on 11 May 2010
In reply to nb:

> Continental climbers aren't motivated by climbing dangerous British routes because they haven't grown up in this climbing culture.

It depends what you term a continental climber, of course. Those that are brought up in Norway, Sweden, Ireland, Saxony, Czech Republic certainly have grown up with a trad culture - not to mention the French, Swiss, Italian Alpinists. I suspect they just can't be arsed with coming over here for a bunch of 10m extended boulder problems.
billydekid1974 on 11 May 2010 - cpc5-aztw13-0-0-cust150.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to billydekid1974)
>
> People don't boulder things with the fall that there is on the hypocrisy of moose. If you fell off the top move without gear you'd fall 20 metres. Go try it if you like, you chump.
>
> Secondly, read my posts. Where in them did I state he should not be trying sport routes?

See mate its very easy to wind you up just like you have the habit of winding everyone else up. I've looked at pictures of the line and done measurements and its about 35ft (Nothing even remotely like 20 metres 60 odd feet) and yes people have been bouldering onsight such lines for decades. Sorry to dissapoint you. Go and thread somewhere else where someone actually gives a damn what you have to say.

nb - on 11 May 2010
In reply to GrahamD:

I wasn't talking about 'trad' culture in particular, just UK climbing culture. The only reason a lot of the UK's classics test-pieces (at whatever grade) are climbed regularly is because of the history behind them. The Moon is a chossy 6a+ rising traverse with short pitches. Right Wall is a fairly run-out, not very sustained 6b+ with a couple of big ledges on it. Revelations is not exactly the most inspiring 8a in the world.... These routes are some of the most sought-after challenges in the UK!

Many of the today's cutting-edge 'trad' routes are similar. Very motivating if you've been following the scene and dreaming of what it would be like to climb them one day, but not really worth risking life or limb on when seen through the eyes of an outsider (Franco's Moose thing being the obvious exception).

Continentals who want a bit of an adventure don't usually look to small pieces of rock to find it, even if they are excellent climbers. They get on Alpine faces and steep water-ice, or they ski couloirs, or go speed-riding or whatever. They don't lack boldness, they have just been brought up with different cultural bearings. If they were stuck in the UK they'd probably end up getting on hard trad after a while.
bouldery bits - on 11 May 2010
In reply to billydekid1974:

Go boulder it out then! I'll even spot for you. I expect there to be no trousers to back your mouth up.
irish paul - on 11 May 2010
In reply to bouldery bits: I expect he's talking about the types of highballs in Bishop, to do a Mick Ryan he's a UKC article - http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=45550

50ft V12 ground up with pads? Scary biscuits!
Bulls Crack - on 11 May 2010
In reply to nb:

The Moon is a chossy traverse? Right Wall a ledgy 6b+? I think you're missing the point somewhat. Size isn't everything and these routes 'do' a lot for their length plus add to our thankfully varied climbing tradition

You could be right about Revelations though.
Franco Cookson on 11 May 2010
In reply to billydekid1974: The arete it's self might be only an ultra-highball sort of height, but the ground below is vertical for twice the height of the buttress. You can take your USA measurements elsewhere and go repeat it.

If people highball 50 foot problems then they're idiots, because from the top of a 50 feet problem you'd be absolutely F**ked. Whether you mean people highball for 20 feet and then solo a bit and look dead hard and go, 'woooo, USA, We solo 50 foot problems' then fair enough. And to be honest i'm not that wound up, just quite drunk after an exam and think (like most other people would think) that your comments are that of a fool.

As I said before, go repeat it. You obviously have nothing to lose.
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Michael Ryan - on 11 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to billydekid1974)


> If people highball 50 foot problems then they're idiots

Kevin Jorgeson, Alex Honnold, Isaac Caldiero (and George Ulrich with a ladder start)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM2Kg_YQeMY
In reply to nb:
>
>
> The Moon is a chossy 6a+ rising traverse with short pitches. Right Wall is a fairly run-out, not very sustained 6b+ with a couple of big ledges on it.

.........or they would be if they were bolted.


Chris
shark - on 11 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:


One Brit's route with a hard crux section to start is another Yank's highball
nb - on 11 May 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:

...er no. French grades can be used to describe naturally protected climbs. Indeed that is the case all over the French & Italian Alps.

I think it's only in the UK where there is completely different grading system for sport and trad. I'm happy to be proved wrong on this. In any case my point would hold.

I'm sorry but to a continental climber this is what these routes look like. Doesn't mean that you and I can't enjoy them though!
Enty - on 11 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
>
> If people highball 50 foot problems then they're idiots,
>

yep - much better to top rope it 20 times first ;-)

E

JimmyKay - on 11 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

> If people highball 50 foot problems then they're idiots, because from the top of a 50 feet problem you'd be absolutely F**ked. Whether you mean people highball for 20 feet and then solo a bit and look dead hard and go, 'woooo, USA, We solo 50 foot problems' then fair enough.

What about Echo Wall which has a ground fall potential from about 50ft? Is Dave Macleod stupid?
Jonny2vests - on 11 May 2010
In reply to nb:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> ...er no. French grades can be used to describe naturally protected climbs. Indeed that is the case all over the French & Italian Alps.
>

I think you missed his point. I thought he meant that the routes would be as you described if they were bolted. But because they're trad, they are usually safe but exciting adventures. (Apart from Revelations of course).
Franco Cookson on 11 May 2010
In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I don't know about most people's definition of bouldering, but mine entails an element of safish falling or at least that falling is a possibility in a ground up style.

You couldn't fall of the hypocrisy of moose and get back on it. I'm not sure how much of these 'boulder problems' in the US are pre-practised and the idea is not to fall off.

Obviously there are some strange members of UKC who seem to think the US is full of super-humans who think nothing of a 15 metre free fall. Strange how they didn't onsight solo Giai.....
Franco Cookson on 11 May 2010
In reply to Jay_Kay:

Echo Wall was pre-practiced and the idea was not to fall off. 'bouldering something out' is different from soloing.
GrahamD - on 11 May 2010
In reply to nb:

If you are using the french grade to try to grade the Moon, then it isn't 6a+ !

In any case, I think we are broadly agreeing that anyone who has to travel to find traditional climbing is unlikely to be attracted to the scale of climbing on offer in the UK (except for our closest neighbours)when they could be in the Dolomites or the Picos or Lofoten or ....
AJM - on 11 May 2010
In reply to GrahamD:

> If you are using the french grade to try to grade the Moon, then it isn't 6a+ !

What do you think it is then? I have a friend who agrees with the 6a+ suggestion for it...
nb - on 11 May 2010
In reply to jonny2vests:

I just fail to see how bolting the Moon would affect its chossiness, lack of directness or French grade.
ali k on 11 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

> The arete it's self might be only an ultra-highball sort of height
itself - reflexive pronoun

> You couldn't fall of the hypocrisy of moose and get back on it.
hasn't it got gear behind a flake at half height?

> but the ground below is vertical for twice the height of the buttress
making a pretty safe fall zone, no?

> Obviously there are some strange members of UKC who seem to think the US is full of super-humans who think nothing of a 15 metre free fall. Strange how they didn't onsight solo Giai.....
Alex Honnold pretty much did, no?
Dave Warburton - on 11 May 2010
In reply to ali k: Gear behind flake tends to pull out, as flake flexes.
The ground isn't vertical franco, you'd hit it.

Let's not start the did he onsight it / beta from television shite, again!
Jonny2vests - on 11 May 2010
In reply to AJM:
> (In reply to GrahamD)
>
> [...]
>
> What do you think it is then? I have a friend who agrees with the 6a+ suggestion for it...

Me too. Just about the softest E3 in Wales.

Jonny2vests - on 11 May 2010
In reply to nb:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> I just fail to see how bolting the Moon would affect its chossiness, lack of directness or French grade.

Whats chossy about it? It 'looks' chossy, but is in fact solid and not vegetated. Lots of Gogarth is like that. It also has a reasonably strong line, so I wouldn't say it suffers from a lack of directness either.

stewieatb on 11 May 2010
In reply to ali k: Franco was referring to soloing it, as somebody further up the thread followed the finest traditions of armchair climbing and made a pointless conjecture based on photographs and guesswork.
Adam Lincoln - on 11 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

By the way Franco, when are you going to go back and do the arete proper? It has been top roped.
neil the weak - on 11 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

> [...]
> Alex Honnold pretty much did, no?

No. He lead it (onsight or flask or whatever the pedants are calling it today)first on a rope, then went back and soloed it later.
ali k on 11 May 2010
In reply to stewieatb:
> Franco was referring to soloing it, as somebody further up the thread followed the finest traditions of armchair climbing and made a pointless conjecture based on photographs and guesswork.

You mean this comment?
> I've looked at pictures of the line and done measurements and its about 35ft (Nothing even remotely like 20 metres 60 odd feet)

I have a sneaky suspicion that he was being slightly facetious, much like I was.
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ali k on 11 May 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
> By the way Franco, when are you going to go back and do the arete proper? It has been top roped.

Indeed. And onsight some other E8s, or headpoint some other H7s to get an idea of how it compares? ;-)
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

I am not able to onisght E8, cause i'm sh*t. I have no interest in pre-practising established routes, but I am planning on putting up some more routes.

Why don't some of you people who can pad out a 50 foot fall with your ear come repeat them. Downgrade them if you like. I'll even make you a cup of tea.

> but the ground below is vertical for twice the height of the buttress
making a pretty safe fall zone, no?

Yeh, ish. If the gear held and you weren't soloing it. Perhaps on MTV they boulder it with a harness and clip bolts on the way up?

Also 35 foot = over ten metres. I think you even got your maths wrong in this hideous excuse for a toolish statement.

To my great chum Lincoln: Do you mean at Ravenscar? I'd be impressed if anyone top roped the arete on it's left side. It seemed very hard.

irish paul - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C: 35 feet = 10.668metres, so not too bad an approximation...
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to irish paul:

He suggested 10.668 metres = 1/3 of 20 metres.
irish paul - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C: Not sure where you got that from, has the post been deleted as I can't see that anywhere?
Adam Lincoln - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> To my great chum Lincoln: Do you mean at Ravenscar? I'd be impressed if anyone top roped the arete on it's left side. It seemed very hard.

No no, the moose arete. Direct without going right in the middle.

Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

It would be a bit of an eliminate not to follow the holds wouldn't it?

And who has top roped it?
Adam Lincoln - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to Adam Lincoln)
>
> It would be a bit of an eliminate not to follow the holds wouldn't it?
>
> And who has top roped it?

It was about 10 years ago he top ropped it, an ex local i was talking with.
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

really? That's ace. You couldn't PM me the details. I didn't know anyone else had tried it.
GrahamD - on 12 May 2010
In reply to AJM:

I can climb most 6a+s but I can't lead the Moon. Technically it might have a similar physical climbing standard as 6a+ but it is NOT 6a+ (OK, hands up, Creeping Leema is the nearest I've got to climbing the Moon)
Andrew Smith - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to ali k)
>
> I am not able to onisght E8, cause i'm sh*t. I have no interest in pre-practising established routes, but I am planning on putting up some more routes.

Come on Franco, you are hardly rubbish if you are Headpointing your own E8 routes!

But how come you don't want to repeat other established routes at that grade, I would have thought the reason for doing so would be to grade your own personal progression, rather than the Kudos some may attach to it?

Cheers

Andy

Bulls Crack - on 12 May 2010
In reply to nb:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
>
> I just fail to see how bolting the Moon would affect its chossiness, lack of directness or French grade.

It has none of those things though!

It's not chossy, it takes a natural line of weakness and a Fr grade for it is irrelevant.
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to andyyyy:

*headpointing my own unconfirmed H7* (equivilant to about an E4+ onsight)

I want to develop the area. There are loads of new routes to try which are around E6,7,8,9. I might as well try one of them. The only reason to headpoint is if you don't know the grade in my eyes- hence I only headpoint FAs or routes where it is likely to be a sandbag.
Alun - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> Why don't some of you people who can pad out a 50 foot fall with your ear come repeat them.

Because he'd rather climb 40m pitches in the sun at Siurana than freeze up a grotty 10m arete in the rain?

Just a thought!
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to Alun:

Or because he might die.
Alun - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> Or because he might die.

That too!
AJM - on 12 May 2010
In reply to GrahamD:

If it has 6a+ climbing on it then surely it is 6a+... it's just 6a+ on trad gear which is going to be a bigger undertaking than the same grade on bolts, because of the extra fear and the hanging round to place gear.
Jonny2vests - on 12 May 2010
In reply to AJM:
> (In reply to GrahamD)
>
> If it has 6a+ climbing on it then surely it is 6a+... it's just 6a+ on trad gear which is going to be a bigger undertaking than the same grade on bolts, because of the extra fear and the hanging round to place gear.

Yeah, and it also has a lot of gear, none of which is particularly stressful to place. I've always assumed its only E3 because it's a committing undertaking, the climbing itself is VERY reasonable at the grade.
hexcentric - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C: Not sure Headpointing E8 (if that is what it turns out to be....) is the same level of achievement as onsighting E4?!

Don't know many E4 leaders who could do E8's, headpointing or not. I would have thought if you were trying to "equivalentise" (made up word alert) achievements then about 2 or maybe 3(at most)? E Grades would be about the difference depending on the route.
In reply to AJM:

If it has 6a+ climbing and bolts it is 6a+, if it has 6a+ climbing and plenty of gear it could be E2 5c-ish, if it has 6a+ climbing and no gear it could be E5 5c.


Chris
hexcentric - on 12 May 2010
In any other country than Britain if a route has 6a+ climbing and bolts it is 6a+, if it has 6a+ climbing and plenty of gear it is 6a+, if it has 6a+ climbing and no gear it is 6a+. (Ok in America you can add R and X if you like)
jon on 12 May 2010
In reply to AJM:

Assuming you're still talking about The Moon, consider that for Brits, a French grade means sport climbing. However, if The Moon was in France in its trad state, it would receive a French grade (obviously), but it wouldn't be on a sport climbing scale...! It would certainly get a much higher grade than 6a+. It would be classed as TA for terrain d'aventure. And it probably wouldn't be very popular!
AJM - on 12 May 2010
In reply to jon:

Are you saying that the French grade takes into account placing the gear, or do they grade it incorrectly for a different reason, to stop people injuring themselves on it perhaps?
Jonny2vests - on 12 May 2010
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to AJM)
>
> if The Moon was in France...

Thank god it's in the mill pond Chicken Licken.
jon on 12 May 2010
In reply to AJM:

Yes, for TA routes, it's supposed to take that into consideration, a bit like the E grade, but it fails as far as I'm concerned as it doesn't tell you anything really.
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:

I'm only about an E4 leader on proper routes. I only suggested it could be E8 to onsight as it's so blind. It just like any other E7 to headpoint.
ali k on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

> Why don't some of you people who can pad out a 50 foot fall with your ear come repeat them.
> Because he'd rather climb 40m pitches in the sun at Siurana than freeze up a grotty 10m arete in the rain?
correct! i did a few nice ones this morning actually. and last weekend some 60m routes at montsant. very enjoyable! :-) you should try it Franco

> Downgrade them if you like.
I'll wait for someone else to do that ;-)

> Perhaps on MTV they boulder it with a harness and clip bolts on the way up?
not sure what you meant by this?

> Also 35 foot = over ten metres. I think you even got your maths wrong in this hideous excuse for a toolish statement.
I didn't actually say that, did I? But as others have pointed out it wasn't a bad approximation by the man.

> To my great chum Lincoln: Do you mean at Ravenscar? I'd be impressed if anyone top roped the arete on it's left side. It seemed very hard.
There are some quite good climbers out there you know! And have been for a long time.

> Not sure Headpointing E8 (if that is what it turns out to be....) is the same level of achievement as onsighting E4?!
I'll second that. If it felt that easy, then perhaps it wasn't E8? or H7? or whatever grade you gave it

> I'm only about an E4 leader on proper routes. I only suggested it could be E8 to onsight as it's so blind.
Then maybe you should hold off on the grading until you have more experience. Be that onsighting harder routes, or headpointing harder routes (some which have actually been confirmed)

> It just like any other E7 to headpoint.
So you're a regular headpointer now? Thought you weren't into that?...
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to AJM)
>
> If The Moon was in France in its trad state, it would receive a French grade (obviously), but it wouldn't be on a sport climbing scale...! It would certainly get a much higher grade than 6a+. It would be classed as TA for terrain d'aventure. And it probably wouldn't be very popular!

Though if it was properly bolted it would be about 6a+? This is a bit like the thread on The Axe a while back, people were assuming that as it is E4 it would be F6c if it were bolted. I reckoned it would be nearer F6a/6a+. What does our man on the ground think?

Chris
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

I dislike these back an forth bitchy posts.

I've done a couple of E6s, so I assumed an E7 would be a bit harder than them. This was massively harder than either of them. But to be honet I don't really have to justify myself to someone who has fled the country. It is H7. I look forward to someone without a vendetta coming to confirm it and I guessed at E8 as I hope someone will come and onsight it (onsighting being something which is ruined by sandbagging in the moors). I don't really see why my own routes are brought up here.

It's quite a simple sequence of events: I put up a route which I think is H7/E8. Someone comes and repeats it. If people want to say it's shit and skateboarders from America could highball it, then fine. It is one of the single pieces of my climbing I am most happy with, even when I watch the very grainy video it makes me feel quite happy, as I tried to onsight it; couldn't, fell off; I tried to shunt it and couldn't; I came back a few months later and managed it; A lot of effort made it feel more solid and then I led it. I know it's one of the hardest routes in the area and I know it's brilliant climbing. Come do it. It might make you so happy you never have to belittle other people again.
jon on 12 May 2010
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Yes I agree Chris broadly, though I really can't remember the Axe - or The Moon, for that matter - as they were so long ago. The Moon may have a few moves harder than that... I was just pointing out that there is a difference in French grades, but we as Brits rarely see the trad version. Is the weather as shite in the south as it is here?

Michael Gordon - on 12 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> In any other country than Britain if a route has 6a+ climbing and bolts it is 6a+, if it has 6a+ climbing and plenty of gear it is 6a+, if it has 6a+ climbing and no gear it is 6a+. (Ok in America you can add R and X if you like)

Thankfully this is Britain and therefore we use proper grades!

Michael Gordon - on 12 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:
> (In reply to Franco C) Not sure Headpointing E8 (if that is what it turns out to be....) is the same level of achievement as onsighting E4?!
>
> Don't know many E4 leaders who could do E8's, headpointing or not. I would have thought if you were trying to "equivalentise" (made up word alert) achievements then about 2 or maybe 3(at most)? E Grades would be about the difference depending on the route.

Surely this depends on how much effort you put into your headpoints? Quite a few climbers have headpointed 4 grades above what was at the time their onsight limit.

ali k on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

The trouble is Franco, that you bring this on yourself.

At every possible opportunity you try to belittle other people by ramming your extreme ethics down their throats and having a pop at sport climbing. Your very first post on this thread being a prime example:

> I am very interested to see how hard he can technically move, i'm even more interested to see how hard he can climb.

This behaviour irritates people, and after hearing the same old sh*t spewed out time and again, is it any wonder that you get the sort of responses you do on here?

I'm sure in 'real life' you're a decent bloke. In fact I think we have a few mutual friends. But on UKC you come across a bit differently. Try not to take yourself, or your climbing, too seriously!

Oh, and I haven't 'fled' the country. I'm just quite into my sport climbing at the moment, and Cataluña isn't the worst place in the world to live if you're into that. And the weather is infinitely better!
Speaking of which, I would highly recommend getting over your ego and trying sport climbing. It will change your outlook on bolting routes (if you do some decent ones!), it will improve your trad climbing, and you might even enjoy it!!
Owen W-G - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

Do you know any local wads who would be up for a repeat of the Moose?
Opinions on grades can vary wildly from person to person, would be interesting to see a consensus emerge.

You are right tho that no one can really comment on the grade until they have a go.
Owen W-G - on 12 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

Ali, can you make your logbook visible again. I used to enjoy checking on what Brit wads get up to. Well jelous of your Catalan lifestyle, as I sit in my office.
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> Yes I agree Chris broadly, though I really can't remember the Axe - or The Moon, for that matter - as they were so long ago. The Moon may have a few moves harder than that... I was just pointing out that there is a difference in French grades, but we as Brits rarely see the trad version. Is the weather as shite in the south as it is here?

Can't remember The Axe or the Moon - they are burned into my brain!

Currently back in sunny (cool!) Sheffield, working on Cote d'Azur and Peak Limestone. Just booked a ferry to Sweden though for three weeks hence!

Chris
JSA - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to ali k)
>
> I dislike these back an forth bitchy posts.
>
Then I wouldn't have started it if i had been you.
>
> Come do it. It might make you so happy you never have to belittle other people again.

People are also suggesting you try some bolted stuff.
What you have done is effectively belittle the young Mr Ondra, who is not only at the top of his game, but also so far ahead of anyone else there isn't a 'close' second.

Do you want a ladder or do you need a shovel to keep digging?

Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

The old franco used to force ethics down people's throats, but on this thread I really haven't. That first first post is the most extreme thing I posted and that was in reply to someone who was suggesting foriegners could piss all over UK trad, which we then discovered was not true.

I like sport climbing occassionally. I don't even mind sport climbers. I intend on sport climbing a bit more. I have belittled noone on this thread despite extreme views and repeated mis-enterpretations being throw at me. There is no link to me saying that no foriegners have torn through british trad and that my routes are shit and easy.

i'm sure you're a nice bloke in real life too and I realise people post things in a light-hearted manner amoungst serious posts, which often causes trouble.
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to the inspiral carpet:

Where did I belittle Ondra. All I have done is congratulated him and that it would be interesting to see him on trad. Go and find some proof or go away.
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to Owen W-G: I know of two people who are apparently trying it at the moment. Both who have climbed H7 before. I don't even mind people commenting before they have tried it, as long as it is objective and not trying to annoy me.
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JSA - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:

I can't be arsed reading the whole thread again but you have somewhere clearly stated that he's not capable of climbing our hardest trad routes, when, in fact i'm pretty sure he's more than capable and if so inclined would absolutely decimate our trad.
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to the inspiral carpet:

decimate means to destroy a tenth. Why would he only climb a tenth of our routes?

past the pedentry; NO. I didn't say he couldn't climb our hardest trad. I said He could probably climb most of it and then push standards a little higher, but he wouldn't find an E8 or E9 onsight 'a piece of piss', which some users seemed to think he would.

So you are wrong. No need to appologise.
Alun - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> I dislike these back an forth bitchy posts.

Could have fooled me!
Alun - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Alun:
PS Hi Ali! I bumped into a mate of yours at Rodellar on Saturday. I think his name was Bruno? Very nice bloke, He mentioned that he knew you. He seemed to be crushing Rodellar into a fine limestone paste, despite the poor conditions. We fled down to Siurana where it was a bit sunnier.

Did you ever get up to Montgrony this winter?
nb - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Nez:
> While going up to malham last evening Adam Ondra was walking back down. Apparantly he's over for a week and camping in malham. Should be interesting to see how he get's on with the Steve Mac super routes.

He's seems to have done pretty well on them. Sounds like he enjoyed himself too. Well done that man!
hexcentric - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Michael Gordon: Perhaps at the cutting edge (as after a point routes get very hard to onsight and verything harder gets headpointed?)?? I can't personally think of anyone who has gone more then 3, in most cases 2. I know routes 2 grades over my onsight limit aren't quick headpoints for me, depends on the length and sytle of route a bit but just 2 grades beyond normally involves multiple days of effort for me (like 3-5).
hexcentric - on 12 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric: For instance:

Pearson: Hardest Onsight: E8 (EOTA)
: Hardest Headpoint: E10 (equil)

Birkett: Hardest Onsight: E8 (FOF)
Hardest Headpoint: E9? Lots of.

Dawes: Onsight E7 (?)
Headpoint E9 : Indian Face

Houlding: Onsight E7 (masters wall)
Headpoint E9 (trauma?)

Seb Grive: Onsight E7? (Snap Decision?)
Headpoint E9 (Meshuga)

etc etc - in most cases,usually 2 and occasionally 3 grades harder but no more. Dave Mac does provide an obvious excpetion but then he is pretty much Mr Headpoint.





Michael Gordon - on 12 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:

I know what you mean. While there have been climbers who've headpointed their first E7 from a previous best onsight of E3, this is not really the norm. Maybe in terms of 'average effort' (whatever one deems that to be?) 2 grades difference might be regarded as roughly equivalent difficulty in onsighting/headpointing (e.g. E5/E7)?

But then presumably a very good onsighter climbing close to their limit might only manage one grade harder (or even no harder) when using pre-practice.

As you say it also depends on the specifics of the route in question.
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I think it's a question of being arsed. Most solid E4 leaders could headpoint E7 in my opinion and most E5 leaders H8. The question is whether you could be bothered. It's a lot more interesting headpointing a new route in my experience.
Dave Warburton - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C: You've never headpointed established routes though? It might be more fun than you think...
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to Dave Warburton:

Fair point. Perhaps that should read 'I couldn't personally get psyched to try other people's routes'
Adam Lincoln - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to Dave Warburton)
>
> Fair point. Perhaps that should read 'I couldn't personally get psyched to try other people's routes'

Yeah, routes like Gaia, End Of The Affair are so uninspiring...
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

I agree with you about end of the Affair, but most routes at this grade (like gaia) are pretty cool-looking. It's less about the line though and more about the best use of time. There are countless new routes to do with moves at least as good as these.
hexcentric - on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> I think it's a question of being arsed. Most solid E4 leaders could headpoint E7 in my opinion and most E5 leaders H8. The question is whether you could be bothered. It's a lot more interesting headpointing a new route in my experience.

I guess you are half right. I don't know how many days I would need to put into doing a route 4 grades over my onsight limit but I would think it would be a lot, proabably a large chunk of my season (or more maybe) given the amount of time off I get. I would have to like the route an awfull, awfull lot to do that.

Why it would make any difference whether it was a new route or not I have no idea. All the routes I headpoint are new to me.
Franco Cookson on 12 May 2010
In reply to hexcentric:

I just get a lot more inspired by unclimbed lines. Has a greater level of intimacy for me.
liz j on 12 May 2010
In reply to Franco C:
> (In reply to hexcentric)
>
> I just get a lot more inspired by unclimbed lines. Has a greater level of intimacy for me.

Sort of akin to wearing beer goggles at an under 18's disco then.
ali k on 12 May 2010
In reply to Alun:

Yeh that'll be Bruno. He's a beast!

I was at Raco de Missa (Montsant) all weekend climbing in perfect sunshine! Some amazingly long routes there - up to 60m pitches! If you haven't been already I would highly recommend it (only if you like pockets though!).

Yeh I've been up to Montgrony quite a few times now - it's awesome isn't it! And such a beautiful place too. I've also been to a few other spots in the vicinity recently, out of the Ripollés guide, which were pretty nice too.

Let me know next time you're down my way to hook up - you still have my number, right?
ali k on 12 May 2010
In reply to Owen W-G:
> Ali, can you make your logbook visible again. I used to enjoy checking on what Brit wads get up to. Well jelous of your Catalan lifestyle, as I sit in my office.

I wouldn't describe myself as a wad - that label is reserved for a different breed entirely! Just an (occasionally) keen climber with the opportunity to climb alot.
My logbook makes for pretty dull reading to be honest. Here's an example from the last few days:

Route 8 (Can Codola) - F8a *** Lead RP 12/May/10 Siurana 1st RP in a very short session. classic siurana. vert, crimpy, technical. excellent
Dents i ungles F7a+ *** Lead O/S 10/May/10 Montsant
No es guanya per disgutos F7a+ *** Lead O/S 10/May/10 Montsant
Scala-Dei L2 F7c *** Lead O/S 09/May/10 Montsant another top quality mega-long route. hard route-finding on the crux of the top pitch
Ara plà F7a+ ** Lead O/S 09/May/10 Montsant
Ara hi corro F6c+ *** Lead O/S 09/May/10 Montsant
Kamaleón F7c *** Lead O/S 08/May/10 Montsant amazing amazing amazing. 50m of pure class
Catalonia is not Patagonia F7b *** Lead O/S 08/May/10 Montsant
La terra promesa F7a+ *** Lead O/S 08/May/10 Montsant
La llum F7b *** Lead O/S 08/May/10 Montsant
Alun - on 13 May 2010
In reply to ali k:

> Yeh I've been up to Montgrony quite a few times now - it's awesome isn't it! And such a beautiful place too. I've also been to a few other spots in the vicinity recently, out of the Ripollés guide, which were pretty nice too.

The Ripolles guidebook is pretty good isn't it? Loads of quality rock in the region. The other place I really want to check out next autumn is Balcó de Mar, http://bit.ly/blqgvH , which is in the Garraf national park, right next to Barcelona. It's bird banned until mid-summer though.

> Let me know next time you're down my way to hook up - you still have my number, right?

Yeah I think so. Last weekend's Siurana visit was a rapid change-of-plan from Rodellar, so I didn't have time to think ahead. But next time I'm down I'll be in touch :)
ali k on 13 May 2010
In reply to Alun:

> The other place I really want to check out next autumn is Balcó de Mar, http://bit.ly/blqgvH
That place looks awesome! You'll have to send me details at some point. I'm up around Barcelona quite often these days when I visit the mrs so I'd be keen to check it out after summer...

> next time I'm down I'll be in touch :)
I suspect that may be after summer now...it's getting less and less like Siurana weather, isn't it?! More time for Rodellar/Tres Ponts and the like...
ads.ukclimbing.com
ali k on 13 May 2010
In reply to Alun:

p.s. just read on your blog that you went to El Dard recently!! What a hidden jem 'El Marginao' is, eh?! I thought it was one of the best routes I've done in Catalunya! I drive past & see it every time I go to Siurana/Margalef/Montsant etc and I only got round to doing it after living here for a year and a half!
Alun - on 13 May 2010
In reply to ali k:
Hah yes, it's an easy crag to drive past, El Dard. You see it, look at it, think "what a great crag", and then keep on driving to climb somewhere else!

El Marginao is a 'climb-me' line if I ever I saw one. Did you onsight it? Bloody good effort if so; those very final moves, where you have to move out right, aren't that obvious at all.

Another great hidden crag that I saw you'd been to recently was Masriudoms. Simply awe-inspiring. And, if you look over the ridge far away to the left, you see a couple of similar caves in the distance which, as far as I know, they don't have a single route on them! Sigh.
Ian Patterson on 13 May 2010
In reply to ali k:
> (In reply to Owen W-G)
> [...]
>
> My logbook makes for pretty dull reading to be honest. Here's an example from the last few days:
>
This thread is now well off on a tangent (though an improved one!). Actually that sort of info is great, particularly since you include the comments on quality, with so much to do it the Prades area it's great to see what other people have done / recommend.
Ian Patterson on 13 May 2010
In reply to Alun:
> (In reply to ali k)
> Hah yes, it's an easy crag to drive past, El Dard. You see it, look at it, think "what a great crag", and then keep on driving to climb somewhere else!
>
Strange really - I had one trip there a few years ago and was very impressed, I'm not sure why nobody seems to visit it. Similar style to El Falco (maybe average grade a bit harder) and not far off in the quality stakes as well.
ali k on 13 May 2010
In reply to Alun:

Yeh I did onsight it. As you say, not obvious. I went up left initially as there was a good pocket and loads of chalk marks, before realising it was a dead end and had to come back. Strangely, there was absolutely no chalk whatsoever on the holds out right (not sure how the people before me had climbed it?!! or maybe they didn't finish?). A great route, and seemingly not well known about - I've never seen anyone climbing there, either when I've been there or just driving past. Some of the 7bs there are also very good, if you go back.

Yeh Masriudoms is another great crag. Unfortunately I haven't much left to do there now. With it being my local crag and a good retreat in bad weather I've been quite a lot. There is a continuation to this route: http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=134463
which climbs through the next roof (you can just see the shadow of the roof in the picture) and actually tops out, at around 8b - not sure if it's had a 2nd ascent. I think it will be 65-70m in total...that's next winter's aim!

There is A LOT of rock down in that area. Two other places i've been meaning to go for ages are Pratdip (similar to Masriudoms) and Tivissa (similar to Verdon apparently!) but getting info is proving quite tricky. There have been access issues at Pratdip and the locals are keeping quiet about Tivissa to avoid the same problem.

There really is a lifetime of climbing in Catalunya isn't there!
ali k on 13 May 2010
In reply to Ian Patterson:

I know what you mean. It is nice to be able to read people's comments when going somewhere new and get an idea of what routes to do. Unfortunately I had a slightly spoooky experience a few years ago when a complete stranger recognised me, and it then became apparent that they knew where I had been climbing recently, what routes I had done, and who with. I made my logbook private after that...

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