/ yosemite eight
this thread got us thinking: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=503455&v=1
so, my mate does the figure of eight with an upward facing stopper. I do the figure of eight with a yosemite finish.
this one (apologies, he is american after all ;): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCbUpul1R6w
seemed like a better system for me. When i did the stopper before, it always came undone.
with the yosemite; at the wall and the crag (and now the mountain), it has always stayed as it should, and also out of the way.
good? bad? indifferent??
The issue with a fig-8 is that when the loop is cross loaded (i.e. not the normal load in a fall but what often happens at belays or when belaying) the knot will 'roll' at fairly low forces (2-3kN) and if the tail is to short the knot could fail quickly rather than have the opportunity to progressively tighten.
As such, it is a really case of picking what you prefer.
Two additional points:
- how well stopper knots 'seat' does depend heavily on the rope. Stoppers never sit well and stay tied with my superdry 8.5mm ropes but on my soft and pliable 10.5mm Lanex Altea they cinched tightly every time.
- very badly tied stopper knots are DANGEROUS. There have been several documented accidents of novice climbers clipping the extra loop formed between a badly tied stopper knot and the main knot which has then slipped/failed when loaded.
Neat, brings the rope out pointing down from your harness and close to the harness so it's easier to grab, like the bowline; no stopper required, even a trained chimp can tie a granny knot, it's not as hard to untie after loading, it doesn't use as much rope as an 8 and stopper, it's easier to adjust the initial knot if you tied it in the wrong place - need I go on? Been using it for a couple of years now and absolutely love it.
don't fancy anything other than a figure of eight yet Mike. I'd need to see someone using that in action and have anything else demonstrated to me in a live situation to even think about using anything other than trusty old eight...
1: uses less rope
2: you don't need to tie a stopper knot, because it forms a ring, i.e. it can't roll when cross loaded (as in when you tie in at a belay)
3: it is EASIER to untie than a figure of eight
4: it doesn't come undone like a bowline
5: its a small neat knot i.e. its less bulky on your harness
6: it places the rope closer to your waistband which makes it easier to grab hold of than a fig 8.
Errr... The water knot is only supposed to be used with tape, as it slips on rope and even on tape if loaded repeatedly. I got no figures at the moment to back that up, so it could be another case of an 'urban myth'. I'll have a look around and report back. :-)
Another knot that is safer than the classics, very easy to untie and unjammable, and which doesn't roll or change shape under load is the zeppelin loop. A bit harder to learn and prone to mistakes, but once you learn it is much superior to 8's and bowlines. http://notableknotindex.webs.com/zeppelinloop.html
To the OP, as Mike points out the Yos8 rolls when loading the loop, in addition, the way you thread the tuck makes a big difference, so be sure you follow the right path http://www.vimeo.com/40767916
Testing on slings and the mechanisms of failure http://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/Water_Knot_Testing.pdf I'll keep checking for rope data.
Oh, i'm sure i could tie on with a simple overhand or an un-stoppered bowline for years with no problems. But you only need to score that 1 in a thousand chance and it's game over.
As i said though, at the moment is only an unbacked statement, and the paper above could only really be an argument for checking your tied slings as i doubt anyone would load their tie on knots 800 times. Other than that it's only a suggestion that could be unsafe or be part of climbing folklore myths.
Just found this which suggests failure by high cyclical loading and that this failure was easily avoidable by using a longer tail - tie-in knots you tie at the bottom of each route and inspect every time. It's a very different use to a sling, especially as the loading is on one of the tails.
That was meant to say ex-eng, not Mike BTW.
Beaten to it twice! Grrrrr....
Re: Zeppelin loop. It's not that complicated when you 'understand' the knot. It is simply 2 overhand knots (one in each strand) which interlock. Best to learn the bend and then the loop becomes obvious.
Bend and Loop http://davidmdelaney.com/zeppelin/Zeppelin-bend-and-Zeppelin-loop.html
Good to see all the different views on which knots are best
As Jon says I use the fig8 with a up stopper because thats what I am confident in using. Not wanting to re-harsh the other thread but it also about what you are comfortable and confident to do successfully! Learning whatever knot is important, concentrating when doing and getting your mate to check them is crucial. I always look at mine or Jons knot and always check his belay (hope you check mine sir?!)
The potential of knots to undo is scary but how many failures are the users failing to actually tie the knot properly?
Ha, ha. Yes, those guys are certainly special. However i found these threads invaluable as a resource of knot information and referrals to real tests which may not show up when using the humble Google.
I've been wanting to contact them for a while, as there's loads of data simply not available or that has not been tested. Got a list as long as my arm of stuff i want to see results for. Fancy chipping in for a days 'pull test machine' hire? ;-) I wonder if they would hire the rig out...
Right, after some more research it seems you are in the clear, and the Myth that the water knot is unsafe in rope is not so. Another example of the motivations for not using a knot being simplified to the ubiquitous "it's unsafe".
Apparently the problem with it is that it can jam badly, but otherwise it is a perfectly safe knot.
Discussed by bondage lovers here http://www.craftbanter.com/showthread.php?t=13410 (Roo and Dan Lehman are some of the most knowledgeable out there)
And also here http://igkt.net/sm/index.php?topic=1238.0 (Have some Paracetamol at the ready before starting with this one)
Cool. Let me know what his response is in regards allowing other people to run a test. Been planning one for a while which is rather extensive and doesn't really apply to any products DMM manufactures.
> 4: it doesn't come undone like a bowline
I've tied many a bowline and it's never come undone. Am I doing something wrong?
And my point was, with a properly-tied bowline, you don't either. ;)
I use it because:
It is safe, particularly if a stopper knot is added.
It is easy to undo after a fall.
It's easy to see if it is tied correctly.
I've never tied it incorrectly.
It's quick to to tie.
I can tie it blind-folded.
I can tie it using just one hand (good in an emergency).
There is no danger of pulling the rope up out of reach with half a knot still tied in it (something I've seen done a few times with a figure of eight). LOL.
> And my point was, with a properly-tied bowline, you don't either. ;)
If you really believe this, then you've not been paying close enough attention to the many testimonies that in fact, you DO (or you need to use some other securing method, such as some extension, further tucking of the tail). The bowline can loosen and come untied, even when it was "properly tied" --where that expression refers simply to the forming of the basic knot (some consider it to refer to using a stopper or other securing method, too).
This eye knot bears the same relationship to the infamous "EDK" (offset water knot --nb "offset"!) as the "overhand on the bight" (aka "overhand loop") does to the water knot (aka ring bend). (Note that in this latter case, there are two loadings possible --which end is tail, i.e..) And, as it is an eye knot --loaded on 3 of 4 ends, not just 2--, the testing done by Tom Moyer of the end-2-end knot ("EDK") is rather irrelevant; one overhand component is loaded on both ends, and so cannot "roll". (You can prove the difference by trying to UNtie the knot w/o using its ends --nope, it's not tied in the bight!)
And an overhand knot isn't a "granny" --that is an end-2-end knot like the square /reef knot.
Are you sure that's true? If used to join two ropes, yes; but at a belay it isn't cross really cross loaded, more pulled a bit to one side. The pulls will be through the knot and to the first anchor, back from the second anchor and into the the rope loop (which will slide around so the line is against the knot), and from the belay plate.
To roll, I think the fig8 needs to be pulled 180 degrees apart.
Jim Titt might be the best person to answer this.
Are you sure about that?
The German Alpine Club and Austrian Alpine club safety commission as well as the Swiss Alpine Club strongly recommend not using the Yosemite finish due to potential ring-loading issues after tests done by Mammut.
The recommended and taught tie-in knots in the German speaking world are a)fig 8 with stopper b) re-threaded bowline. The re-threaded bowline is the knot of choice for most sport climbers I know and is immune from ring load failure, easy to tie and untie and very easy to see if it is tied correctly which is more than one could say for the Zeppelin loop!
I have also heard it called a sport eight since it's easier to untie after being weighted. i tend not to bother and just leave a reasonable tail and pull it tight.
It's a nifty term from the Germans meaning the loading of an eye knot's eye as though it were a round sling --e.g., clip two krabs into the eye and pull them in opposite directions.
Jim, are these Mammut tests available on-line (where)?
Isn't the issue of ring-loading NA when the tie-in rope is used for anchoring?
(As has been argued here and elsewhere.)
> It's a nifty term from the Germans meaning the loading of an eye knot's eye as though it were a round sling --e.g., clip two krabs into the eye and pull them in opposite directions.
> Jim, are these Mammut tests available on-line (where)?
No idea, maybe ask Mammut themselves.
> (As has been argued here and elsewhere.)
I posted this video above with some pull tests on ring loading various knots http://www.vimeo.com/40767916
The ring loading weakness becomes an issue when you use the rope loop to attach yourself to a belay/anchor or to belay your partner.
I do wonder how many accidents attributed to the 'badly tied bowline' are really the result of clipping to an anchor through the rope loop of an unstoppered knot and then slumping on to the ropes. After all, it is not really possible to tie a bowline wrong, as it will not hold its shape, and it's frighteningly easy to undo a bowline by pulling on the ring even just by hand...
> I posted this video above with some pull tests on ring loading various knots http://www.vimeo.com/40767916
It seems to me that one of the reasons for the bowline being so controversial is that whilst in its simple "naked" form it's a very poor tie-on indeed, with a proper locking finish (the stopper knot is only the clunkiest of many) it outclasses most others.
Just to note, the video doesn't show the fig8 being pulled in the directions it would be at a normal belay, as one of the lines would be taking the force. It shows what would happen if you put a cow's tail on the rope loop.
> ...the many testimonies that in fact, you DO (or you need to use some other securing method, such as some extension, further tucking of the tail).
I'm not sure what you mean by the bit I've put in bold there. When I said "properly" tied, I meant a standard bowline with a sufficiently long tail. Do you mean something else?
Indeed. Which is why the ring-loading issue is a bit of a red-herring as regards normal anchoring systems. The "Euro-death knot" specifically refers to the FO8 used to link abseil ropes.
[You asked re my : ]
Yes, I do : by "extension", I mean doing something with that long tail, such as the Janus or Yosemite or "Re-threaded" or End-Bound or Edwards finishes; and another securing method would be adding a "stopper" knot.
So, you've had no issues with merely a simple (non-"double", not "water") bowline and a long tail? Certainly I'm glad that you have not been hurt; but I think that in some ropes the knot will loosen sufficiently to put its integrity into question (vulnerable to capsizing into a pile-hitch noose, if not coming completely untied).
.:. So, I'd prefer to do something with that tail's length --to knot it further, in some way (which will have the added benefit of keeping the tail out of the way).
I'd have thought Fraser would have taken 'bowline' in a climbing context to include a stopper knot, but he'd have to confirm that or otherwise. I don't know any climber who would use a 'naked' bowline. A bowline and stopper is the only knot I ever use. It is much maligned with misinformation and I guess always will be, which is a great shame.
> I'd have thought Fraser would have taken 'bowline' in a climbing context to include a stopper knot, but he'd have to confirm that or otherwise.
And I take him to have done just that, a couple posts prior --to wit:
> The "Euro-death knot" specifically refers to the FO8 used to link abseil ropes.
Let's get this right : "EDK" refers to the OFFSET WATER KNOT (aka "Overhand"/...);
it is commonly recommended for abseil-ropes joining, with either "long tails"
or some stopper knot. (So, yes, the sense of "EDK" was an initial fear overcome
by experience & testing; it remains the name.)
The offset F08 is PROscribed commonly, now, after evidence of its greater
vulnerability to rolling came to light (and defeated the simplistic thinking
of "if an overhand's okay, a Fig.8 must be better"). Sometimes this is called
("offset" is the proper way to refer to these knots, vis-a-vis the axis of tension;
they are not "flat" or "abnormal" --or "double", for that matter.)
Well, that's me told...
Actually, confusingly, "EDK" has been used to refer to both knots at one time or other.
In the one case the "death" in the name is ironic, in the other not so much. ;O)
Copy of my post higher up:-
"Talk to Dan Middleton at the BMC. The BMC have a pull tester, I am sure Dan will be interested in proposals for testing."
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