/ Climbing terminology - what is a crozzly pocket?

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DaveAtkinson - on 10 May 2012
Could anyone provide a clear definition of a "crozzly" pocket or crack? I keep seeing it mentioned in guidebooks but can't say I'd recognise one if I came across it. I thought it might be some quaint regional expression used near Sheffield but it appears in Scottish guides as well.

This sort of description really unnerves me before setting off on a lead and I think guide book writers should be a bit more considerate and use clear unambiguous language.

I'm sure there are other examples as well?



Monk - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

Crozzly means that the pocket or crack is not smooth, but lumpy and sharp - perhaps full of crystals or flaky rock.
toffer - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

Well I hope you never climb on the Cromlech, the place is full of them, you cant beat a crozzly pocket
lowersharpnose - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

It is unambiguous.

You just need to learn the terms, like you have for pocket, jug, arete, slab, offwidth etc.
victim of mathematics - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:
> This sort of description really unnerves me before setting off on a lead

Really? You don't just think "Well I'll find out what one of those is soon enough"?
Quiddity - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

Crozzly things feel pretty much exactly how the word sounds.
pebbles - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson: I'm still waiting for a convincing explanation of where 'wad' came from
Steve John B - on 10 May 2012
In reply to pebbles:
> (In reply to DaveAtkinson) I'm still waiting for a convincing explanation of where 'wad' came from

Try the Urban Dictionary. Just don't blame me if you don't like what you see!
Robert Durran - on 10 May 2012
In reply to toffer:
> (In reply to DaveAtkinson)
>
> Well I hope you never climb on the Cromlech, the place is full of them, you cant beat a crozzly pocket

The original definitive one is just before the run out to the girdle ledge on Right Wall. Go and check it out.

tlm - on 10 May 2012
In reply to pebbles:
> (In reply to DaveAtkinson) I'm still waiting for a convincing explanation of where 'wad' came from

from Late Latin wadda; related to German Watte cotton wool

John W - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

> I think guide book writers should be a bit more considerate and use clear unambiguous language.

Here is some clearly unambiguous language for you - if you are too gormless to either work it out or find out for yourself, tough.

> I'm sure there are other examples as well?

Indeed there are - that's why we read books which contain words which we might not already know.

pebbles - on 10 May 2012
In reply to tlm: I said 'convincing'
pebbles - on 10 May 2012
In reply to tlm: its a secret isnt it. you only get told when you can onsight above E3, and then you are summoned to the secret clubroom where someone whispers the answer in your ear. I'll never know and the question will haunt me to my grave
alan_davies - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Quiddity: Agreed - like a physical form of onomatopoeia.. The word thrutchy is another example.
Quiddity - on 10 May 2012
In reply to alan_davies:

Good one, I was trying to think of more. in a similar vein, 'udging' and 'graunchy'.
Enty - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

Whatever you do - do not put your finger into a crozzly pocket. You're much better off using a thumb sprag.

E
DaveAtkinson - on 10 May 2012
In reply to John W:
I'm afraid it isn't in the English dictionary old chap.
Furanco C - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

I wrote a mini guide to a place once that described the approach as 'breaking through the tulgey wood'. I don't know why people are so afraid of using new words, especially highly onomatopoeic words such as crozzly- it's little wonder that we are so crippled in our writing by this debilitating cannon.
DaveAtkinson - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Enty:
That sounds like good advice. I hope I can spot a thumb sprag when one appears.
Steve John B - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Jurgan C: Crippled by a cannon? It's a war out there...
Toerag - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson: In my experience corzzly pockets resemble holes full of cornflakes made of rock. Normally uncomfortable, yet grippy.
Furanco C - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Steve John B:

We should not weaken our ponderments with witticisms, lest we humourise such a seld-spoken topic. Serious issue.
John W - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

Took about one second on the interweb, old bean.
Rob Exile Ward on 10 May 2012
In reply to Toerag: According to Big Ron, IIRC, crozzle is something to do with the rough edges of steel during steel making - which is exactly like holds that it is used to describe.
tlm - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

here you go:

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=4805960

"Description of an intraformational contorted shale in the Middle Coal Measures of the Potteries Coalfield. The contorted bed occurs immediately below the Winpenny Coal in thin argillaceous measures between thick sandstones. It shows strongly slickensided contacts, and consists of black carbonaceous shale, folded, sheared, and burnished. Deformation is ascribed to shearing stresses operating during folding. This shale is called “hussle” by the miners, whilst a similarly contorted, but non-carbonaceous, shale was termed “crozzle” by old miners of the Staffordshire-Derbyshire moors."
alan_davies - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Enty: I must admit i'm partial to a bit of mild spraggage - don't tell my mother!
quiffhanger - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson: a crozzly pocket is one that I'll whinge hurts my fingers when I'm fresh and warming up but feels amazing when pumped & psyched as you can usually use the "crozzles" to increase friction at the expense of skin.

> This sort of description really unnerves me before setting off on a lead and I think guide book writers should be a bit more considerate and use clear unambiguous language.

Couldn't disagree more: The unique dialect encountered in guidebooks is part of the enjoyment, I cant wait to try "thrutch up the giant detach fridge to an atmospheric stance". "Pull over a block onto a ledge" doesn't quite have the same appeal.

Worth sacrificing a little clarity imo: guidebooks will always be a compromise until they come on your smartphone as annotated video demos (with options for different body shapes & strengths, of course) and an audio-commentary to guide you through the crux and gear placements.
rallymania - on 10 May 2012
In reply to quiffhanger:


> Worth sacrificing a little clarity imo: guidebooks will always be a compromise until they come on your smartphone as annotated video demos (with options for different body shapes & strengths, of course) and an audio-commentary to guide you through the crux and gear placements.


Nooooooooo ooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooo ooooooooooo oooooooooooo ooooooo oooooooo oooo oooooo ooooooo ooooooooooooo oooooooooooo

(to the smart phone app i mean)
tlm - on 10 May 2012
In reply to quiffhanger:
> Couldn't disagree more: The unique dialect encountered in guidebooks...

for example, words like 'interesting' or 'airy' or 'unique' or 'traditional' that tell you a whole world about what sort of thing you might expect from the climb...

I love climbing culture.
antoniusblock - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson: Funny this should pop up, was taught this a few days ago...

Crozzle is the waste material that comes out the top of cementation furnaces used for steel production. It is rough, but friable. Apparently it was then broken down and used for building material. I believe it can be seen in some of the older walls in Sheffield.
alan_davies - on 10 May 2012
In reply to tlm: I like little 'guidebook-isms' like "with interest" e.g. "pull through the bulge with interest" meaning "pull through the bulge with a mix of confusion and terror whilst crying and letting a little bit of wee out.."
Dave Garnett - on 10 May 2012
In reply to tlm:
> (In reply to DaveAtkinson)
>
>
> strongly slickensided contacts

Slickensided; that's even better than crozzly!
tlm - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> Slickensided; that's even better than crozzly!

I've seen a slickenside... I even took a photograph of it!

tlm - on 10 May 2012
In reply to alan_davies:
> (In reply to tlm) I like little 'guidebook-isms' like "with interest" e.g. "pull through the bulge with interest" meaning "pull through the bulge with a mix of confusion and terror whilst crying and letting a little bit of wee out.."

That is exactly what I meant by my post...
Wiley Coyote - on 10 May 2012
In reply to alan_davies:
> (In reply to tlm) I like little 'guidebook-isms' like "with interest" e.g. "pull through the bulge with interest" meaning "pull through the bulge with a mix of confusion and terror whilst crying and letting a little bit of wee out.."

I like 'improvise left for ten feet'

alan_davies - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Wiley Coyote: Perhaps slightly more proscriptive but still good is "sketch upwards with disbelief"..
999thAndy on 10 May 2012
In reply to alan_davies:

And much, much better than 'start 3m right of the last climb', which funnily enough started '3m right of the last climb' and so on for a page and a half...
flaneur - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:

> I think guide book writers should be a bit more considerate and use clear unambiguous language.

"Crozzly pocket" is clear and unambiguous. It has a very precise meaning, describing a cavity with a prickly, verging on the painfully sharp, lining. A hold that is simultaneously attractively positive and repellently barbed. Happily, as others have said, it is also a rather poetic word and deploying it makes a quiet nod to climbing history and the famous crozzly pockets of Dinas Cromlech.

The only problem with it is that you don't know what it means, yet a popular seach engine reveals all in a matter of seconds. What does that say about you?


DaveAtkinson - on 10 May 2012
In reply to flaneur:
Strictly Oxford English for me sir, but I can see a trip to the Cromlech is needed to complete my education. All this advice has set my mind at ease for the next time I'm faced with the prospect of a "crozzly" pocket. However, I don't think I'm up for any "graunching" just yet.
Dave Garnett - on 10 May 2012
In reply to 999thAndy:
> (In reply to alan_davies)
>
> And much, much better than 'start 3m right of the last climb', which funnily enough started '3m right of the last climb' and so on for a page and a half...

Not on my watch!
deepstar - on 10 May 2012
wilkie14c - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson: I always thought it was another name for a fairy cave or to put that in English, a front bottom
SCC - on 10 May 2012
In reply to 999thAndy:
> (In reply to alan_davies)
>
> And much, much better than 'start 3m right of the last climb', which funnily enough started '3m right of the last climb' and so on for a page and a half...

You've been reading the old CC Pembroke Range West Guide haven't you!?

;-)

Si
NeilMac - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Jurgan C:
Are you claiming to have invented the word, "tulgey"?
doz generale - on 10 May 2012
In reply to alan_davies:
> (In reply to Quiddity) Agreed - like a physical form of onomatopoeia.. The word thrutchy is another example.

It's like the girl guides handbook of the north that warns young ladies to be careful buying fast food up north as the staff can be quite "groomy and rapey"
hang_about - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:
It's normally fairly obvious once you get on the route.

My mate suggested a route which was described as thrutchy and I had no idea what it meant. Once wedged halfway up trying to make headway without any significant point of contact he shouted up - "now you know what thrutching means"
Chris.Allott - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:
I refer you to Ron Fawcett's video.."Lord of the Flies"...
other favorite features ( although colloquial and maybe not in guides!)....."nubbins".(small, round, sticky out bits)."plaques" ( flat, sort of stuck on, sticky out bits)..and "divvies" ( shallow pockets - usually where a pebble has fallen out)
Equally, techniques such as ..."thrutching" and "udging" - both of which are undefinable means of ascent.
JDal - on 10 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:
> (In reply to flaneur)
> Strictly Oxford English for me sir, ....

While we're being pedantic, from the Oxford English Dictionary:

"crozzle, n. dial.
[Relation to prec. obscure.]
A cinder.
1819 Hunter Hallamsh., Crozzil, half-burnt coals.
1883 Almondb. & Huddersf. Gloss., Crozzle, a hard cinder found in furnaces.
1887 S. O. Addy in N. & Q. 7th Ser. III. 422/2 The [bronze] spear-head
bears marks of having been subjected to a hot fire, the point especially
having been burnt to a _crozzil'."

Looks like a dialect word from the steel industry. Which may explain why peakies would use it.
Yrmenlaf on 10 May 2012
In reply to Jurgan C:
> (In reply to DaveAtkinson)
>
> tulgey wood

http://www.jabberwocky.com/carroll/jabber/jabberwocky.html

Y.
Andrew Smith - on 10 May 2012
In reply to John W: Looking at the guy's profile I think the post was a bit tongue in cheek? Stop blowing hot air out of your arse..:)
John W - on 10 May 2012
In reply to Andrew Smith:

If so, worthy of an 8/10 in the "worst troll in history" competition. As for the blowing of hot air and arses - maybe you need to speak to your proctologist? :-)
Pekkie - on 10 May 2012
In reply to alan_davies:
> 'Perhaps slightly more proscriptive but still good is "sketch upwards with disbelief"'

The next step is 'levitation'. I was once trying a desperate at Malham when I came to a bit that resembled overleaning pebble-dashing. 'How do you do this bit?' I shouted down. My mate rubbed his chin. 'Well, you kind of levitate.' Needless to say I was found wanting....

Toerag - on 11 May 2012
In reply to JDal:
> While we're being pedantic, from the Oxford English Dictionary:
>
> "crozzle, n. dial.
> [Relation to prec. obscure.]
> A cinder.
> 1819 Hunter Hallamsh., Crozzil, half-burnt coals.
> 1883 Almondb. & Huddersf. Gloss., Crozzle, a hard cinder found in furnaces.
> 1887 S. O. Addy in N. & Q. 7th Ser. III. 422/2 The [bronze] spear-head
> bears marks of having been subjected to a hot fire, the point especially
> having been burnt to a _crozzil'."
>
> Looks like a dialect word from the steel industry. Which may explain why peakies would use it.

We call that 'clinker' here - black/blue/purple solidified 'lava' that you find in the bottom of boiler fireboxes.
LastBoyScout on 11 May 2012
In reply to Wiley Coyote:
> (In reply to alan_davies)
> [...]
>
> I like 'improvise left for ten feet'

I liked "levitate upwards somehow to a hold", or words to that effect - can't remember the route name, only that it used the word "levitate" in the description :-)
JDal - on 11 May 2012
In reply to Toerag: Clinker's a general English word and means other things, like bricks fused together, Lava. Crozzle is dialect, and the first quote is from a history of Sheffield. I'd lay odds on it's use in climbing going back to Sheffield based climbers.
doz generale - on 11 May 2012
In reply to JDal:

Crozzle is the liverpudlian word for christmas
JDal - on 11 May 2012
In reply to doz generale: That's a better meaning :)

Furanco C - on 11 May 2012
In reply to NeilMac:

Nah that carrol chap did, I'm just reppin it in the cannon, innit.
Rob Thornton - on 15 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson:Good on you Dave for having the nerve to seek a sensible answer in a site infected with juvenile pedants and trolls. :-)
Dave Stelmach on 17 May 2012
In reply to DaveAtkinson: It's the opposite of a TFFT hold, both in shape and happiness quotient!
ads.ukclimbing.com
pebbles - on 17 May 2012
In reply to Steve John B: didnt mean that sort of wad!
Ash_Johnson - on 17 May 2012
In reply to John W:
> (In reply to DaveAtkinson)
>
> [...]
>
> Here is some clearly unambiguous language for you - if you are too gormless to either work it out or find out for yourself, tough.
>
> [...]
>
> Indeed there are - that's why we read books which contain words which we might not already know.

Stop trolling and get a life. Sorry, a life apart from your keyboard warrior one.
John W - on 17 May 2012
In reply to Ash_Johnson:

Oooh, I'm so hurt!
Anonymous on 17 May 2012 - 188-222-210-223.zone13.bethere.co.uk
In reply to Jurgan C:
> (In reply to DaveAtkinson)
>
> I wrote a mini guide to a place once that described the approach as 'breaking through the tulgey wood'. I don't know why people are so afraid of using new words, especially highly onomatopoeic words such as crozzly- it's little wonder that we are so crippled in our writing by this debilitating cannon.

Indeed sir! Wasn't Shakespeare labelled a genius for such acts?

John W - on 18 May 2012
In reply to Ash_Johnson:
> (In reply to John W)
> [...]
>
> Stop trolling and get a life. Sorry, a life apart from your keyboard warrior one.


Where've you gone, pussy boy?

MJ - on 19 May 2012
In reply to pebbles:

I'm still waiting for a convincing explanation of where 'wad' came from

A "Wad" is a roll of bank notes put into your pocket to make you look bigger in more ways than one.

King Wad is a Pritchard route on Scimitar Ridge in the Pass.

When the route was still relatively new, people that had climbed it were said to have "Waddage"

Hence the term "Wad".

Might not be true though...

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