/ Best UK sandbags

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Duncan Bourne - on 10 Jul 2012
An obvious and logical conclusion to the series :o)
points may be awarded for
a) apparent innocence on viewing (how easy to get lured in)
b) level of difficulty above given grade (ie how difficult it feels compared to how difficult it is)
c) amount of choss present
d) back off factor (how hard or easy it is to back off once started)
e) embarrassment (arms/legs flailing head stuck etc.)
f) death potential and/or ego damage
Ghastly Rubberfeet on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I got some great ones from B&Q.they hold about 10Kg of sand and are great at stopping all this rain fromm running down our drive.


Oh, sorry, that's not the sort of sandbag you meant.

;~))
stonemaster - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: Coronation Crack, High Rocks 5c. Why oh why is one always the first of the season to climb it. Requires a combination of head, body and arse jams. The greeniness takes about 3 weeks to wash off....:(
Gordon Stainforth - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to stonemaster:

What a totally brilliant piece of climbing it is, though.
Michael Gordon - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

The Mincer (Roaches)
James Oswald - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
First slip - Tremadog on the basis of the number of hard moves in the upper groove and the 2 5c moves at the top. Nails for E1!

Be clever at Barcud - hard bold moves and much harder well protected ones. Again, it's e2.

Gordon Stainforth - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Dare I mention Nowanda?
stonemaster - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: But of course, Mr Stainforth...:)
stonemaster - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Michael Gordon: Agreed...:(
parkovski - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

The Unprintable.
Jon Stewart - on 10 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

A favourite:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=22765

> a) apparent innocence on viewing (how easy to get lured in)

Strong natural line, not too steep, classic route. Why not?

> b) level of difficulty above given grade (ie how difficult it feels compared to how difficult it is)

Hard to say whether the E1 5c in the new Rockfax is correct - given that the gear at the crux is disgusting rotten pegs, then if the climbing's 5c (it is, but only due to polish), E1 seems rather conservative.

> c) amount of choss present

The top groove is not just loose, it's also and vegetated and filthy.

> d) back off factor (how hard or easy it is to back off once started)

Lower off those pegs?

> e) embarrassment (arms/legs flailing head stuck etc.)

Not too bad I suppose given that any flailing will result in
> f) death potential and/or ego damage
Offwidth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Thats more like it!. Anyone try Straight Ahead at Stanage when it was still diff?? nearly did for me solo and gave a breif scare to my mate who was leading mid extreme at the time. Middleton's Motion on Roaches Skyline was good at VS 4b for cruelty and its still VS. That thing on Noe Stool was VD now E5 (cheating though as the original line is more like HVS 5b). Middle Chimney on Crowden Clough still Diff in the 2nd edition of Rockfax (keep up boys).
Smelly Fox - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
The Chasm, on the Buchaille. Scottish VS and as long as the crow flies as it is high probably.
It just draws you in! Hard to escape from, loose and always wet. Lots of squirming and thrutching (sometimes up waterfalls) Felt harder than any VS I've ever done before!

I suppose it is Scottish VS so I should have guessed!

Trist
Michael Hood - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Offwidth: I did Straight Ahead when I was doing loads of Stanage Diffs back in the late 70s - my logbook comment is "A little b*stard. Prominent chockstones make it possible not just facilitate the ascent".

I think that means I found it harder than the other similarly graded routes I did on that day :-)

If it had been properly graded I certainly wouldn't have looked at it then and might never have had the "pleasure" of having done it.
Pursued by a bear - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: Helfenstein's struggle; though the name does give rather a large clue, this nevertheless innocent-looking gully has lured more than a few - me included - into its reaches.

T.
Duncan Bourne - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
A few of my own favourites:
"The Pugilist", Roaches skyline HVS 5b - it's short how hard can it be? Prepare to be bloodied.
"Poisonous Python" E2 now but in the old days it was HVS very innocent loking but a right Roaches B**tard!
Has anyone done "The Fox" at Newstones?
"Ray's Roof" for the big boys
"Little Nasty" Ramshaw E1 4c, 5b but it is the undercut 4c crack that stops most.
"Calcutta Crack" Roaches Sev. - a great struggle at the grade with a slightly overhanging finish
SCrossley on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: The VS finish to Damascus Crack at the Roaches, very safe, a friend of mine who is now sadly gone put me on it, and then just sat at the bottom laughing his socks off.
The Ivanator - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Tatra in the Boulder Ruckle is an infamous Swanage sandbag
a) apparent innocence on viewing (how easy to get lured in)
OK, it looks pretty steep and gnarly and you have to negotiate an intimidating abseil to get there, so not many points on this criterion.
b) level of difficulty above given grade (ie how difficult it feels compared to how difficult it is)
Generally reckoned to be solid HVS, but the tradition to keep it at VS has been maintained by 2 guidebooks published in 2012.
c) amount of choss present
Insecure sandy traverse pitch, typical loose Ruckle top out (not the worst in the region admittedly)
d) back off factor (how hard or easy it is to back off once started)
Multi pitch in an area of steep cliff, no significantly easier ways up if you ab off the route, 35m free hanging prussik ascent is your alternative if you leave an ab rope in situ.
e) embarrassment (arms/legs flailing head stuck etc.)
Easiest method for the traverse pitch is a thoroughly undignified caterpillar wriggle on your stomach along the fault line - not a technique you'll find in any climbing manual.
f) death potential and/or ego damage
Gear OK except on the traverse where a sizeable fall onto a protruding ledge certainly has broken limb potential.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Michael Hood:

I see from my logbook that we had a lot of trouble with Surprise in 1970, and were completely defeated by Butcher Crack. Both given VS then. (PS. I'm not advertising the current Stanage guidebook :)
Stone Muppet - on 11 Jul 2012
Crack and Corner.

Stanage or Roaches Upper Tier, take your pick. Both look alluring warmups being situated right where the path meets the crag. Both nails at whatever grade they are.
Simon Caldwell - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

South Chimney Layback (Almscliff) at Severe
South Chimney (Almscliff) at Diff
Slanting Crack (Lads Leap) at VDiff if you follow the topo in the new guidebook ;-)
Darron - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Saddy at Curbar?
Liam Ingram - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Lorraine at Bowden?
Kid Spatula - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

South Chimney Layback is a right arse.
I had a lot of trouble with Roof Route at Stanage. What an odd climb.
Liam Ingram - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I had a really fun time on Biven's Crack at Gardoms. Didn't feel very HVS although it is very good.
highclimber - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: Wrinkle, Carreg Wastad. in every other guide apart from the Llanberis guide it's a VDif - No way is it VDif!
Simon Caldwell - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to highclimber:
> Wrinkle, Carreg Wastad. in every other guide apart from the Llanberis guide it's a VDif - No way is it VDif!

My notes say "disappointingly easy" - perhaps I was climbing well in those days (late 90s)!
pasbury on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Agony on Castle Rock of Triermain when it was HVS; a gearless leaning wall on the second pitch and a bloody awkward bulge on the first.

Rampart Corner on Holly Tree Wall when it was - I think - a VS in Tom Lepperts guide; sustained hard 5b with maybe a 5c move thrown in.
Jon Stewart - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Liam Ingram:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> I had a really fun time on Biven's Crack at Gardoms. Didn't feel very HVS although it is very good.

Yes, that one was a massive sandbag at HVS. I had fun belaying my mate on that, catching an inverting sideways lob from ever so near the finishing holds, with a bounce off the ledge below them en route. It was quite spectacular. I led it on his gear, and as usual in those circs, nearly did the same thing (although, unlike him, I think I had opted for a big cam somewhere along the traverse).
EarlyBird - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Toreador:

Wrinkle: it's not so much the technical difficulty - it's the length, intricate route finding, poor protection and looseness on the top pitch that makes it a sandbag.
Hephaestus - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Ghastly Rubberfeet:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> I got some great ones from B&Q.they hold about 10Kg of sand and are great at stopping all this rain fromm running down our drive.
>
>
> Oh, sorry, that's not the sort of sandbag you meant.
>
> ;~))

That explains your username, then. Good for paddling.
adamki - on 11 Jul 2012
neb direct at tremadog... so hard, but well protected.
Neil Henson - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
> An obvious and logical conclusion to the series :o)
> points may be awarded for
> a) apparent innocence on viewing (how easy to get lured in)
> b) level of difficulty above given grade (ie how difficult it feels compared to how difficult it is)
> c) amount of choss present
> d) back off factor (how hard or easy it is to back off once started)
> e) embarrassment (arms/legs flailing head stuck etc.)
> f) death potential and/or ego damage

Fuse at Birchen was a total sandbag when it was graded severe. It ticked a) and b) nicely, but didn't score so well on c) to f). Now gets VS 5a.
Chris Harris - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Kid Spatula:


> I had a lot of trouble with Roof Route at Stanage. What an odd climb.

You don't mean Roof Route at Burbage South do you?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10631

Definitely an awkward bugger....

Hat Dude on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Birthday Crack at Curbar


Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Liam Ingram:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> I had a really fun time on Biven's Crack at Gardoms. Didn't feel very HVS although it is very good.

What about Elliott's Buttress Direct at Gardoms ... at 'Hard Severe'? My God!

James Oswald - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Chequers crack - far harder than all the other HVS sandbag finger cracks that I've done in the Peak.
Jon Stewart - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to James Oswald:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> Chequers crack - far harder than all the other HVS sandbag finger cracks that I've done in the Peak.

I reckon Nonesuch is about the same - both nails!
Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to James Oswald:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> Chequers crack - far harder than all the other HVS sandbag finger cracks that I've done in the Peak.

I'm sure no one would complain if it was given E2 5c - except perhaps Al Evans :)
nniff - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to adamki:
> neb direct at tremadog... so hard, but well protected.

Indeed - but at E1 The Neb itself is flipping impossible. Can't do it, and won't try again either. From which you might deduce that I haven't done Neb Direct either - and you'd be right.
Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

What about Tom Thumb E2 5c at Cratcliffe? I couldn't second the crux even on a very, very tight rope.
Simon Caldwell - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> What about Elliott's Buttress Direct at Gardoms

I thought that was fine at HS (though HS 4b not HS 4a as per the guide). I was only seconding, but my partner didn't have too much trouble, despite having to make some extra moves due to not being able to reach some of the holds :)
Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
> [...]
>
> I thought that was fine at HS (though HS 4b not HS 4a as per the guide). I was only seconding, but my partner didn't have too much trouble, despite having to make some extra moves due to not being able to reach some of the holds :)

Maybe I was having an off day. I've crossed it out and put 'VS 5a' in my guidebook!
EarlyBird - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I must have been having a bad day as well. I thought the top moves were very tough for HS.
Trangia - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

If the final pitch of Milestone Buttress is a V Diff then I'm a stove.

It must be a Severe? It's considerably more difficult than anything else on the route which is barely more than Diff.

Offwidth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Nope, its VS 4b now, so you're right: Toreador has inherited this begruding view on grades based on doing one sandbag more than than a makeshift flood barrier.

A few more:

Verandah Buttress, Stanage is the old school classic... still HVD and there is a 4c way of doing it (but despite my wide experience I couldn't see it until I was shown how by Chris FitzHugh).

Kellys Overhang, Stanage: still HVS but stops low to mid extreme leaders regularly. Ditto Masochism at Ramshaw but for very different reasons!

Dirty Trick Kinder North, was VD... superbly named: I had to aid this.

A collection from Shooters Nab:

Elbow Alley pic p.572 in OtM ... Dave reputably managed this HVS after its stopped quite a few extreme leaders.

Fairy Arete I backed off this VS and was glad I did now E3. Trundle groove next door at VD wasnt bad either.
Trangia - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to stonemaster:

On the subject of Southern Sandstone I'd say pretty well everything under 4b is a sandbag and horribly worn making it generally unsuitable for beginners. It's only above 5a that the grades start to become realistic (with one or two exceptions like Coronation Crack).
Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> Nope, its VS 4b now, so you're right: Toreador has inherited this begruding view on grades based on doing one sandbag more than than a makeshift flood barrier.
>
> A few more:
>
> Verandah Buttress, Stanage is the old school classic... still HVD and there is a 4c way of doing it (but despite my wide experience I couldn't see it until I was shown how by Chris FitzHugh).

I couldn't do Verandah Buttress last time I tried - if that's the one with the horrible sloping block/shelf thing. But I wasn't climbing very well then. I remember doing it several times in the past without much bother. I suppose if you're going strongly you can just do a very big mantelshelf move without scrunching your goolies.
JJ Krammerhead III - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: EBD was a nasty shock at HS! VS 5a sounds right
JJ Krammerhead III - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: I ended up heel hooking on a Moderate in Coire Sputan Dearg, pretty sure I was on route at the time(probably off route higher up on the offwidth crack and tricky, technical wall)
Offwidth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Thats not the trick!
Simon Caldwell - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
> Nope, its VS 4b now, so you're right

Really? The same grade as the (distinctly harder) Indirect?
47/62 votes in the logbook are for HS.
Mr. K - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: The Toy at Curbar and The Mincer at the Roaches get my votes!
Offwidth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Toreador: yes really... thats the definitive grade... and as well as being VS 4c in the definitive the indirect is distinctly better protected at the crux. People vote like morons sometimes on UKC.
Jonny2vests - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Toreador) yes really... thats the definitive grade... and as well as being VS 4c in the definitive the indirect is distinctly better protected at the crux. People vote like morons sometimes on UKC.

So better a dictatorship than a narco-syndicalist commune?
Simon Caldwell - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
> People vote like morons sometimes on UKC.

Is that another way of saying "people sometimes disagree with me" ;-)
Offwidth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

Good try ... more like an old school greek 'democracy' maybe... I simply think we need experience if grades are to be trusted. The BMC does this as a pretty fair editorial team effort (as an example Moff and I were almost certain Two Pitch Route should have been HVS but even as volume editors we accepted being outvoted). It's a reality that UKC grade votes for soft Eastern Edge classics can be nearly a full grade down on voting on some Moorland classic brutes and half a grade down on known tough climbs with fewer ascents on the same eastern edges (at least that's in my view and that of most of the very experienced climbers and guidebook activists I climb with and talk to...and even though our views on what the 'benchmark' might be sometimes differ: the moorland activists tend on average to grade slightly harder than me being an eastern edge bred softie)

Defining some grade standards would help. I know these soft and tough eastern edge routes well upto E1, and I watch many folk, and the stuff I and the BMC team see sometimes simply doesn't match the statistics. If you could track the views of the same folk voting mid-VS for Inverted V on say Moneylenders, Flash Wall, Jester Cracks, Ornithologists Corner etc we may start to get an idea.
Offwidth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Toreador:

I certainly trust your views as honest and consistent (and can almost predict them now) but as Ive just said I genuinely feel the average votes are demonstrably too low for peak eastern grit for soft popular classics. I'm fully aware of the inrinsic variability in grading from person to person.
Goucho on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Clachaig Gully - a great day out, but the grade is irrelevant, as it can feel anything from Hard Severe to E1 depending on conditions, vegetation, and which bits have recently fallen down.
Ravens Gully (Summer) - Buachaille
Birthday Groove - Curbar - a sod of a start for 5c!!!
The Knock - Burbage
Darker Angel - Craig Cau, Cadair Idris - finding, and getting to the start from the bottom, is the first of many sandbag moments!

Dave Garnett - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Goucho:
> Birthday Groove - Curbar - a sod of a start for 5c!!!


I think it was my first ever grit 5c. Backing and footing everything was a phase I went through.
Greenbanks - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Laveredo Wall has always been on my sandbag list
Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Greenbanks:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> Laveredo Wall has always been on my sandbag list

Umm. I remember John and I virtually waltzed up it in our 'summer of 68'. As borne out by my logbook. My memory is that it seemed quite friendly/tame combined with things like Brant, Ribstone Crack and Phantom Rib - particularly the latter which had NO worthwhile protection on the last pitch which was/felt like quite solid 5a. Remember, the protection in those days was absolute crap.
Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Greenbanks:

PS to last. Here's the logbook entry from 1968. Goes over 2 pages. I gave the top pitch 4a!

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/images/lavaredo.jpg
http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/images/lavaredo2.jpg
Bulls Crack - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I only tried it once but Phil's Route on Dovedale Church? Or was I just being nesh?
jacobjlloyd - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to adamki:
> neb direct at tremadog... so hard, but well protected.

Agree. Couldn't get up the thing. Nor could my partner for the day, a notorious jamming fiend who onsights tech 6b for breakfast. It was meant to be the warm-up, and it was the hardest thing we tried all day! We spent a fair while falling off it over and over... never E3, unless you have tiny hands or a massve reach. Mind you, according to Eric it did used to have a chock to pull on, so its not like the old crowd were all that 'ard ; )
jas wood - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Amongst many:
Bivens crack - gardoms
Roof route - rivelin
grond - cromlech IMO
kellys overhang (surprised not mentioned yet)
Gordon Stainforth - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to jas wood:

Offwidth mentioned Kelly's Overhang this afternoon. I've never done it. I fell off the crux in Aug 1970 and ended up a few feet off the deck - my biggest gritstone fall. Never tried it again.
stonemaster - on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: Agree with that assessment about Lavaredo Wall. Liked it so much, did it again! Found Brant and Ribstone Crack to be very good. Haven't managed to have a look at Phantom Rib yet.
Tim Sparrow on 11 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: Emperor's New Shoes on Arenig Fawr - front cover of the Merionydd book. An E1 that calls itself a VS.
James Oswald - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I found it Chequers crack MUCH harder than nonsuch! Then again, it was a warm up route on my coldest day of trad of last year....
JimmyKay - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Depraved at St Govans is the evil brother to Deranged... Undersold at E1 in the old CC guide - upgraded in the new Rockfax to E2, maybe not enough though?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=24803
Tom Last - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> "Poisonous Python" E2 now but in the old days it was HVS very innocent loking but a right Roaches B**tard!


Feck, I had a helluva time on that as an early 'HVS'.
parkovski - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to jas wood:

roof route at rivelin is no sandbag. Perfect jams... compared to kellys overhang it's vs! Btw. Has anyone ever seen someone climb kelly's with any kind of memorable or repeatable sequence? i've done it, and i've seen other people do it, but when ever i look at it again i think, "what exactly are you supposed to do to pull on to the headwall?!"...
Sam Beaton on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to parkovski:

look away now anyone who doesn't want beta.....













stay low, step across the square gap in the roof to the obvious large smear on the corner of the block in the roof, and use an upside down jam in the break at knee height to pull across into a standing position. Probably only works if you're short like me. My 6'1" second stayed high and made stepping across look desperate
Gordon Stainforth - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Sam Beaton:

Ah, he says, 42 years later ... that's what I did, but I didn't find/think of the upside down jam! Fascinating. BTW, i've seen people go straight up onto the headwall rather than right, and make it look quite easy ...
GrahamD - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> I only tried it once but Phil's Route on Dovedale Church?

I made absolutely zero headway on that one too - but then I'm crap
gribble - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Overhanging Crack at Stanage platation - what's that all about?! Very humbling to get severely beasted by a Stanage VS. Is there a hidden hold somewhere?
Offwidth - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to gribble:

HVS 5a* in the last two definitive guides.
wilkesley - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I don't think anyone has mentioned Orpheus at Birchens. I think my ancient guide gives it HVS 5b, which is about right provided you know the trick move to surmount the overhang.

Spoiler......









Jam your knee under it, which allows you to reach up for the jugs.
Frogger - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:


Whaup Edge, Eastby Crag

a) apparent innocence on viewing (how easy to get lured in)
- Looks like a lovely line from the ground. But then you step up and assess the fall factor....

b) level of difficulty above given grade
- Technical difficulty not a problem. Mental difficulty = Oh dear!

c) amount of choss present
- No choss. There are no features for choss. Or gear.

d) back off factor (how hard or easy it is to back off once started)
- I think once you step onto the arete and start for the middle break, that's that. Getting off it safely without climbing would be tricky!

e) embarrassment (arms/legs flailing head stuck etc.)
- Quite high, if you step onto the arete then remain there gibbering for 20 minutes before bailing

f) death potential and/or ego damage
- Would be a nasty fall if you didn't make it to the break.



Simon Caldwell - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Frogger:
> remain there gibbering for 20 minutes

I don't know how long I gibbered for but it was significantly longer than 20 minutes!
highclimber - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to James Oswald:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> Chequers crack - far harder than all the other HVS sandbag finger cracks that I've done in the Peak.

I got spat off that and bruised my ass (an ego) as a result! certainly harder than it looks!
steveP - on 12 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Bludgers revelation
Rob Davies - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: The Rift on the Upper Tier at Gogarth looks innocuous but is a proper fight. If you served an apprenticeship in the Ogwen Valley then VS is fair, but climbing wall types need not apply. The bail-out slings below the narrow section suggest that chimneys are well out of fashion.
Patrick Winters - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
The odd route at Back Bowden, Northumberland and just about anything at Great Wanney (also Northumberland
EZ on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Lucas Chimney S 4a - Roaches Lower Tier http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=16037

> a) apparent innocence
It's huge with gear at the back and everything.

> b) level of difficulty above given grade
Hard if you face the right way. I saw it done facing the wrong way once and it was a 40 minute fight with a VERY scary turn at the top to get to face the right way for the exit.

> c) amount of choss present
Depends on the time of year, but if you replace choss for sharp nasty knuckle and knee grating crystals the size of the crown jewels (that don't help as holds except for painful friction) then it's on top of the list.

> d) back off factor
Maybe you could back off up to about 2/3 height. Once you start going for the top lip of the chimney before the leftwards exit, you ain't going anywhere without a spare rope from above.

> e) embarrassment
Not sure if it quite gets the embarrassment factor unless (the victim I am thinking of will laugh his bag off at this when he reads it) you face the wrong way for the chimney proper and have to turn at the top in which case some very scared looks and much much laughing from the bottom after 25 minutes for the first 10 metres and another 15 for the turn to be able to make the exit move.

> f) ego damage
Again, it kind of depends on which way you face. The victim in mind cannot look at a chimney without swearing now!
EZ on 13 Jul 2012
I should add... even in face of the wrong way face he got it clean on sight and massive kudos to the man with the big kahoonas!
Double Knee Bar - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to EZ: I remember that. Severe was about my grade at the time and I was slightly more portly than I am now. I managed to rest by inhaling and jamming through chest expansion. I ached for days after.
Nick Russell on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Has anybody suggested Niflheim at Tremadog? It was VS 4c in the Rockfax Pocketz guide I was using at the time, but pretty mean at that grade! I can't really comment on how easy it is to get lured in, because above the first short chimney, you can't see it for the trees. Anyway, the P3 hand traverse is hard, only protects well with small cams, and just as serious for the second as the leader. Plenty of humiliation potential swinging off this onto the peg at the start.

The P5 offwidth is described in the book as being protectable in a smaller crack to the left, but you have to have a pretty wide wingspan to reach that! Definitely broken ankle territory if you can't get the gear in (or get your foot stuck in a crack)

Overall, a brilliant route.... just not VS
tom bre - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: Crack and corner at Stanage given HVDiff though the start feels like determined HS 4b
ads.ukclimbing.com
Swirly - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to jas wood)
>
> Offwidth mentioned Kelly's Overhang this afternoon. I've never done it. I fell off the crux in Aug 1970 and ended up a few feet off the deck - my biggest gritstone fall. Never tried it again.

My biggest fall anywhere, facilitated in part by me kicking out a runner on the way down. I ended up upside down not far off the deck with my helmet, of course, safely packed in my rucksack. At the time it was graded E1 in PGE and I came on here to ask for beta. John Cox said it was definitely HVS as "it's too hard to be E1".
birdie num num - on 13 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Num Num marched up to The File on Higgar Tor in a confident, workmanlike manner, and slunk away an hour later, licking his shredded hands and nursing his sore ankle.
stonemaster - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to birdie num num: Hee hee, you ain't the only one...:)
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to birdie num num:

The File - an 'easy 5a' or a 'desperate 4c' is my verdict :)
stonemaster - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: So if one approaches it as a 5b, it would be piss easy...
Gordon Stainforth - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to stonemaster:

Exactement.
Si dH - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
What have they put brothers eliminate in the new kinder guide at? That was two full grades out at hvs and meets your criteria!
Offwidth - on 14 Jul 2012
In reply to Si dH:

HVS 5b again, as is Interstate. Legacy should be on the soft touch list,,,a dream of an HVS for Kinder.
Mark Warnett - on 15 Jul 2012
In reply to JimmyKay: I can't believe Deprave used to get E1! i was cursing the bastard who gave it E2.

Tatra is also up there - the bottom pitch is a thuggy struggle, the 2nd and 3rd pitches i thought bold
Bart Shaw on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart: I was too pumped to place it, or retreat!
Bart Shaw on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to Darron: Another vote for Saddy - mean even by Curbar standards. It has a crack the whole way up, so it must be protectable at the crux? I certainly found it too flared to find anything good.
victim of mathematics - on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to Greenbanks:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> Laveredo Wall has always been on my sandbag list

Erm, no. It's not particularly hard for VS. It is awesome, mind.
GrahamD - on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Beg to differ - Lavaredo (I don't think its Lavaredo wall, is it ?)feels pretty stiff to me for VS with technical moves above gear. Wouldn't be out of place in Swanage.
Kemics - on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Climbers club direct at the dewerstone.

looks fairly straightforward from the ground. Being a flaring fist crack has the ability to cheese grater the overenthusiastic and punish the flailing. Easily protectable, but only by very large gear, which you run out of half way through each pitch. Embarrassment - it's only HVS!

Mark Warnett - on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
At E1 i struggled on Barbarian at some insignificant wet weather crag in north wales. also the spider at chudleigh was tough and sustained and gideon at dewerstone - being able to jam miht have made it much easier!
Goucho on 16 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: Amazed no one has mentioned Right Eliminate at Curbar - surely this must qualify!!!

ebdon - on 17 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne: not sure what the consensus is on Wolly Jumper on Bowfell but i thought it was a massive sandbag at 'easy' e1 - theres sod all gear and i for one got excedingly gripped.
Gordon Stainforth - on 17 Jul 2012
In reply to Mark Warnett:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> At E1 i struggled on Barbarian at some insignificant wet weather crag in north wales. also the spider at chudleigh was tough and sustained and gideon at dewerstone - being able to jam miht have made it much easier!

I climbed Barbarian in 1983 when it was given HVS. I was climbing E1 quite strongly at the time, yet found this one of the most sustained, strenuous and difficult pitches I had ever led. I came down muttering, 'That has to be E1.'

Dave Rumney - on 17 Jul 2012
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
> (In reply to Mark Warnett)
> [...]
>
> I climbed Barbarian in 1983 when it was given HVS. I was climbing E1 quite strongly at the time, yet found this one of the most sustained, strenuous and difficult pitches I had ever led. I came down muttering, 'That has to be E1.'

I was climbing solid E3 when I failed on it in 1990!

I left with the impression at the time that it was technically impossible for the tall. I vowed never to return and so far so good...
JimR - on 17 Jul 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> I only tried it once but Phil's Route on Dovedale Church? Or was I just being nesh?

Glad you said that, I found it totally desperate!
Pagan - on 17 Jul 2012
In reply to ebdon:

Easy E1/tough HVS - take your pick (if only there were a grade for such routes, hmm...). Well protected on the cruxy start then lots of 4b/c to the top with adequate but well spaced gear.
Tom Last - on 17 Jul 2012
In reply to Kemics:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> Climbers club direct at the dewerstone.
>
> looks fairly straightforward from the ground. Being a flaring fist crack has the ability to cheese grater the overenthusiastic and punish the flailing. Easily protectable, but only by very large gear, which you run out of half way through each pitch. Embarrassment - it's only HVS!

Amen to that brother.
Pagan - on 17 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Couple of other Yorkshire ones which haven't been mentioned yet:

Old Lace, Crookrise
Whillans' Arete, Baildon

I'd like to see a run-of-the-mill HVS leader walk up and onsight Minion's Way too...
EddieC on 17 Jul 2012
In reply to Pagan:

... Or the Wimberry triumvirate of Freddie's Finale, the Trident and Blue Lights Crack.

Mind you I'm only partially qualified to comment, having rested on the first, backed off the second and not gone anywhere near the third.

Nifl Heim at Tremadog is a bit mean at VS but I think it's HVS in the latest guide.

Biven's Crack felt tough and that was as a second. So did Birthday Crack (VS) at Curbar.
James Oswald - on 21 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Parliament at Bamford (HVS).

Yes, the gear is very good but..

It's overhanging, it's a finger crack. But it's a finger crack that you can't fit your fingers in for most of it. It has at least 3 or so 5b moves and one solid 5c move and there are no good rests.

It's E2 at least? It's a world away from the other sandbag HVS finger cracks on grit (nonsuch, chequers crack).
Jon Stewart - on 22 Jul 2012
In reply to James Oswald:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
> Parliament at Bamford (HVS).
>
> Yes, the gear is very good but..
>
> It's overhanging, it's a finger crack. But it's a finger crack that you can't fit your fingers in for most of it. It has at least 3 or so 5b moves and one solid 5c move and there are no good rests.
>
> It's E2 at least? It's a world away from the other sandbag HVS finger cracks on grit (nonsuch, chequers crack).

All true. When you think you've done the hardest grit HVS crack, there's always another that's worse. Try High Tensile Crack at Hen Cloud - again, felt 5c to me on second. Overhanging, bad jams - nightmare.
Tommyads on 22 Jul 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Wouldnt go as far as E2 but Maybe E1. Well hard though!
Would love to try it again, not sure why it has no stars.
John_Hat - on 22 Jul 2012
In reply to Pagan:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> Whillans' Arete, Baildon
>

I didn't find too bad.. except I dropped my nuts & nutkey halfway up and watched them disappear into the black hole that is the box quarry. On the other hand, if you're not one for exposure I guess it might be nasty.

My own entry would be Charming Crack at Brimham, except instead of luring you into a sense of security and then sandbagging you, it starts as it means to go on. i.e. Mean, nasty, and vicious.
Simon Caldwell - on 23 Jul 2012
In reply to John_Hat:
> > Whillans' Arete, Baildon
> I didn't find too bad

I thought it was desperate when I did it, and I was only seconding! I believe it's being upgraded in the next guide.
Offwidth - on 24 Jul 2012
In reply to Toreador:

From yesterday: Face, Arete and Wall Climb at Crookrise a scary HS 4b given VD*; albeit more like S 4b if you miss the lower wall boulder problem start. Rockfax: "With a name like that who needs a description" my response would be with a grade like that and no heart flutter symbol any VD leader? Who voted VD on the logbooks for this brute?
ads.ukclimbing.com
Simon Caldwell - on 24 Jul 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
You'll see from my comments (August 09) that I sort of agree (though went with HS 4a or VS 4b).
I haven't voted for the grade, as there's no option for anything above HVD (a drawback of the voting system - you can only vote for adjacent grades!)
Offwidth - on 24 Jul 2012
In reply to Toreador:

I was replying to the thread not you btw but glad you replied as I might not have spotted your comment! The bottom wall has gear under a block at the sloping top-out, so HS really. I thought the top wall was safeish 4b as its above the ledge but I guess it might be easier further right where it's more exposed. Lots of hard grading at Crookrise: I though almost everything was hard for the grade or a grade out except Long Climb which seemed more like HS and Diagonal which might be a HD wth a tough start.
Jelly Mould Surfer on 24 Jul 2012
In reply to Offwidth: Maybe Wellingtons Stand at vicarage cliff - Given vs 4c, but vdiff 5b is nearer. Just one well protected desperate move between comfortable stances about 20 feet up.
rockclick - on 24 Jul 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Posted by Greenbanks....

Gentlemen, I give you:

Slab & Groove Route (Scafell): VS originally, but nearer to top end HVS

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