/ Quick draws in hand luggage

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Semtex - on 20 Aug 2012
Taking my climbing gear abroad for the first time next week and was wondering about quickdraws. Will have my rope in my suitcase to check in but was wondering if you can get away with quickdraws in hand luggage to keep the weight down (20KGs max). Any thoughts??
Fraser on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex:

My thoughts are the same as usual, when this question gets asked on here once a month. If you want to take the risk of having them removed, go for it. If not, don't.

"Next!"
Simon Caldwell - on 20 Aug 2012
SCrossley on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex: My thoughts are still that the BMC could sort this out by going to the authorities or whoever and having and having an agreed list and when I approached the authorities they did say that they would discuss this with the BMC, I forwarded details to the BMC and heard no more.
herrettscott - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to sjc: only a good idea if an agreement was reached for all border agencies. I took my sports rack out to spain in hand luggage with no questions asked, but on way back spanish border authorities refused my hand luggage. So 10 minutes later was paying a 110 euro bill to Ryan Air for a second check in bag, return flight with one check in bag only cost 90! So to the OP, my advice pay a little extra baggage allowance and check in your gear.
In reply to sjc:
> (In reply to Semtex) My thoughts are still that the BMC could sort this out by going to the authorities or whoever and having and having an agreed list and when I approached the authorities they did say that they would discuss this with the BMC, I forwarded details to the BMC and heard no more.

How would 'the authorities' know if you were a bona fide climber, or a knutter who wanted to get a knuckle-duster on the plane?


Chris
Graeme Alderson on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs: Your repsonse said what I was going to say but probably in a more reasoned and diplomatic way :-)
Si dH - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex:
You'd be very lucky I think.
SCrossley on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The BMC could approach the authorities (forgot who it was for the moment) with a list of items, nuts, treking pole, krabs, quick draws etcetra and they would go yeah or nay, that way a list could be produced, wether or not your nutter is immaterial, it is wether or not the item is deemed a weapon is the issue, obviously this would need to be pan border but if the bmc took a lead in the UK other national climbing bodies could do the same, it is actually cost free to ask so why not, the worst would be that they would explicitly say no quick draws in hand luggage, then at least people would know..
It`s all a joke anyway bottle of duty free vodka + rag = Molotov and a swiss army knife as you can buy after security certainly at Geneva certainly makes a quick draw seem harmless
kevin stephens - on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to sjc:
> (In reply to Semtex) My thoughts are still that the BMC could sort this out by going to the authorities or whoever and having and having an agreed list and when I approached the authorities they did say that they would discuss this with the BMC, I forwarded details to the BMC and heard no more.

I'm not surprised, what planet do you live on if you think international air travel security is dictated by a bunch of climbers in an old church in Didsbury? (no offence intended to my much respected friends who do so much to look after our interests in other arenas). Most climbers have enough gumption to work out how to get a pair's climbing and camping gear into two 20kg (or even 16kg)hold bags taking clothes as hand luggage.

jim jones on 20 Aug 2012
In reply to sjc:
> (In reply to Semtex) My thoughts are still that the BMC could sort this out by going to the authorities or whoever and having and having an agreed list and when I approached the authorities they did say that they would discuss this with the BMC, I forwarded details to the BMC and heard no more.


They could I suppose but they've enough to do in the UK. 70m rope 18 QD's harness comes in at around 10-12kg anyway. Clothes in cabin baggage (10kg Ryan Air) no problem.
JimboWizbo - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex: I've seen people have small plastic karabiners (attached to a pram) confiscated.
SCrossley on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to kevin stephens:
Your not listeneing are you.

Some climbers would like to take QD`s in hand Luggage, this fact is a proven fact as evidenced by the regular posts on UKC.

There is a central UK body for airport security who would talk to a representative body of any group and give a definitive answer for a list of items for hand luggage.

The BMC is OUR representative body.

This process incurs NO COSTS.

If this was succesful it`s not a great leap for similair bodies in other countries to do the same.

A list of allowed and banned equipment could be posted on the BMC website at the cost of 10p, and everyone would know where they are.

So this would help some climbers and have minimal cost, what exactly is the problem.
Climbapedia - on 21 Aug 2012
Don't risk it. I know someone who lost all their biners (30 snap gates and a couple of screw-gates)!
kevin stephens - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to sjc:
> (In reply to kevin stephens)
> Your not listeneing are you.

No, you arn't
>
> Some climbers would like to take QD`s in hand Luggage, this fact is a proven fact as evidenced by the regular posts on UKC.
>
Most climbers don't need to as evidenced by the even more regular replies on UKC

> There is a central UK body for airport security who would talk to a representative body of any group and give a definitive answer for a list of items for hand luggage.
>

The authorities already give a definitive list of baned items including knuckledusters which arguably include karabiners

> The BMC is OUR representative body.
>
> This process incurs NO COSTS.
>

how many man hours of BMC staff wages do you think it would take for this doomed negotiation (not to mention expenses)? Most of us would far rather see this valuable and limited resource used to protect access and other essential interests rather than compensation for those lacking the initiative to pack their luggage properly

> If this was succesful it`s not a great leap for similair bodies in other countries to do the same.
>
I can't see any reason why the authorites would give climbers special permission to carry "knuckledusters"

> A list of allowed and banned equipment could be posted on the BMC website at the cost of 10p, and everyone would know where they are.
>

From all the replies to this question whenever it comes up on UKC, and the information provided by the airlines and airports we already know exactly where we are.

> So this would help some climbers and have minimal cost, what exactly is the problem.

Er, see above
Lampy on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex: Blimey! It never crossed my mind that the airlines might take them off me. In what way could they be considered a weapon? I just flew out to Spain and back with my harness, belay, krabs and all my draws in my hand luggage and had no problems. I might rethink in future now though given what I've just read.
Howard J - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex:

The difficulty is that you have to comply with the rules of the country you fly from, the country you fly to, and any countries you pass through. The rules are more or less consistent because they all cover obvious items. It is fairly straightforward for them to list items which are banned, but much harder to identify exceptions which should be permitted.

It's unlikely quickdraws would be permitted, because a karabiner could be used as a weapon. But even if they were to be losted as permitted items, would you want to rely on a random non-climbing security guard anywhere in the world being able to identify one? Do you really want to risk the cost and inconvenience of losing your essential climbing gear?

The fact is, it shouldn't be a problem. I flew to Kalymnos recently with a 60m rope and my gear including quickdraws (and a helmet), all within Ryanair's 15kg hold luggage limit. With 20kg allowance you should have plenty. Most of my clothes went in my hand luggage, and I wore as much as possible on the flight.

Get yourself a cheap set of scales, think hard about what you need to take, and pack carefully. You'll be fine.
adep247 - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex:
You could avoid baggage charges from "budget" operators by flying BA.
They let you take all your sporting kit in the hold with very few exeptions.

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/bagsport/public/en_gb?cookiesAccepted=newvispop
Jamie B - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to adep247:

Agreed, this whole "issue" has arisen because of the punitive way in which operators charge for hold baggage. When I were a lad your carry-on baggage was a washbag, change of shirt and something to read.
Ramblin dave - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to kevin stephens:

> The authorities already give a definitive list of baned items including knuckledusters which arguably include karabiners

One positive outcome of this thread is that I've now got an extra criterion for choosing which screwgate to buy...
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adep247 - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

That's exactly what I had on me when I last flew to Kathmandu. How did I manage without my laptop, ebook and iPhone? ;)
GrahamD - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex:

How on earth do you go over 20kG ? if you have that much stuff pack the draws in hold and carry shoes in hand luggage.
SCrossley on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to kevin stephens:
> (In reply to sjc)
> [...]
>
>
>
> how many man hours of BMC staff wages do you think it would take for this doomed negotiation (not to mention expenses)?
>
> [...]
>

It took me one face book posting to find the correct authority.
One phone call to find out the Procedure.
So I reckon it would take the BMC say 8 hours max.
1 hour to draft a letter and put it and a few pictures in an envelope and then maybe a couple more letters.
Not a big deal. Obviously not an issue to you but it is to some others.
I would prefer to travel with Harness, QDs and Rock Shoes in Cabin Baggage.

Karabiner = Knuckleduster
Broken Whisky Bottle = Knife

so why are you allowed to buy Duty Frees ?
Neil Williams - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to sjc:

"so why are you allowed to buy Duty Frees"

Because it is a lucrative business for airlines and airports.

Cynical, moi?

Neil
cariva - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex:
Don't do it....I've been in quite a few altercations with airport officials and always in the loosing end of it. A couple of times they agreed to send it down for me and I got it back at my destinations...but a couple of other ones the altercations got a bit nasty and they just "punished" me, if you know what I mean.
John_Hat - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to sjc:

The problem is that no matter what the BMC negotiates, no matter what the airlines say, none of it matters to the security goon who's having a bad day and doesn't like your face.

Yes, you can jump up and down and say "but...but...but the airline and the BMC have agreed that these are allowed" but at the end of the day your krabs will not be getting on the flight.

There is no point the BMC getting into negotiation with airlines/countries/etc when one unpleasant idiot on security can very effectively nullify the lot.

Yes, later on, you might be able to prove that you were right,. but that wouldn't actually change the fact you had missed your flight and/or had to fly without krabs.

As to your comment about duty free, sorry, are you looking for sense and consistency in the rules concerning items that can be taken on a flight?

The whole debacle about liquids was prompted by a scare that several liquids mixed together could become explosive. Someone tried mixing said liquids in a controlled environment on the ground and proved it's effectively impossible to mix said liquids to get an explosion without a *lot* of bulky lab kit.

Doesn't affect the fact we can't carry on liquids anymore.

JH (who has had rope nicked on a prior occasion as he could apparently tie up the cabin staff)
SCrossley on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to John_Hat:
> (In reply to sjc)
>
> The problem is that no matter what the BMC negotiates, no matter what the airlines say, none of it matters to the security goon who's having a bad day and doesn't like your face.
>
>

At this point you pull out the PDF printed off the BMC website with agreed list and picture of item. Obviously it is here that they pull on the latex gloves and you curse the name of sjc to the high heavens :-(
John_Hat - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to sjc:

Unfortunately said bad-tempered security goon will then say "well, you could have typed that and printed it yourself" - while, as you say, looking forward to the prospect of making you miss your flight in a painful way...

Problem is the security goons appear to be a law unto themselves. Personally I agree with you that a lighter and a bottle of vodka are a lot more dangerous than krabs or a rope, but common sense appears to be something that left the security staff some time ago - perhaps they have a recruitment policy which specifically excludes anyone with brain cells?
needvert on 21 Aug 2012
Wow, airport security seems to be dictated by morons. Words don't seem enough to express my contempt for the current state of air travel "security" procedures.

And to think all this getting f*cked while travelling is ultimately paid for in all ways by us, the consumer.
Neil Williams - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to needvert:

In Switzerland it is very professional and run by the cantonal police force - but the prohibited items are the same sort of thing.

Neil
Fredt on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex:

I thought the point of carry-on hand luggage was so you could take on board things you might need or have access to during the flight, such as a book, a coat, a laptop maybe. ?
In reply to needvert:
> Wow, airport security seems to be dictated by morons. Words don't seem enough to express my contempt for the current state of air travel "security" procedures.
>

Yeah, it isn't as if anyone has ever tried to hijack a plane is it?


Chris
sparra - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex:

surely a carabiner is no more of a weapon than a camera, duty free bottle or any other solid item?
Ramblin dave - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Fredt:
> (In reply to Semtex)
>
> I thought the point of carry-on hand luggage was so you could take on board things you might need or have access to during the flight, such as a book, a coat, a laptop maybe. ?

Yes and the point of a headline advertised fare is that it allows you plus a reasonable amount of luggage to travel to the destination for that price.
Ridge - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to John_Hat:
> (In reply to sjc)
>
> Unfortunately said bad-tempered security goon will then say "well, you could have typed that and printed it yourself" - while, as you say, looking forward to the prospect of making you miss your flight in a painful way...
>
> Problem is the security goons appear to be a law unto themselves. Personally I agree with you that a lighter and a bottle of vodka are a lot more dangerous than krabs or a rope, but common sense appears to be something that left the security staff some time ago - perhaps they have a recruitment policy which specifically excludes anyone with brain cells?

A bit harsh on the blokes on minimum wage who have to apply the policies, or do you think they make the signs banning deadly toenail clippers themselves? The loss of commonsense is a lot further up the foodchain. Plus do you really think they can spend the time arguing with every single passenger about the relative lethal properties of every single item of luggage? As a general rule if it's a bit pointy or I could smash someone's face in with it I tend not to put it in my hand luggage. By following these commonsense rule I have mysteriously avoided encountering the legions of educationally subnormal goons who harass other passengers.
Ridge - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to sparra:
> (In reply to Semtex)
>
> surely a carabiner is no more of a weapon than a camera, duty free bottle or any other solid item?

So as I could garrote you with my shoelaces, shove my biro through your temple or cut your throat with a credit card, we might as well let people on the plane with machetes?
needvert on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to needvert)
> [...]
>
> Yeah, it isn't as if anyone has ever tried to hijack a plane is it?
>

With quick draws? No, I don't think anybody has tried.
Ramblin dave - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Ridge:
You seem to be confusing "is a more effective weapon" with "isn't a more effective weapon".
Simon Caldwell - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Climbing harnesses can apparently be used to tie people up. Whereas belts and neck ties cannot.
Fraser on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to all of us:

I take my hat off to the OP, but feel it's now time to call TROLL and award the full 10 points. Good job sir/madam!
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Ridge - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to Ridge)
> You seem to be confusing "is a more effective weapon" with "isn't a more effective weapon".

Nope, just indulging in whataboutery ;-)
Although FWIW I reckon a HMS krab would be far more useful in a scrap than a bottle of duty-free...
CliffSurtees - on 21 Aug 2012
I had a karabiner confiscated last year. It was on my camera! Could be used as a knukle duster they said. I think there is a scam going on.
mrchewy - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex: Earlier this year on BA flights in and out of Heathrow and Marrakech, my mate from South Africa took all his rack on board as he didn't want to risk losing it in the hold. "Tools of my trade" is how he described it to me. Cams, hexes, the lot. No issues then and he said it's not often he's been asked to explain what a cam is. His hand luggage was basically his rack and his B3 boots - ice axes were in the hold.
Not sure I'd risk it but Joe seems happy to.
tonanf - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex: does anyone know where they sell all the confiscated krabs?
Lukem6 - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex: To sum up, all climbing gear in luggage hold.

Good advice here also
http://teamface.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/rocking-through-customs.html

Wedding boxes are great for hand luggage and hold everything, yet weigh nothing. I can get my entire trad rack and two ropes into a rucksack, under 20 kilo's including 30 meter static... just for the hell of it.

All clothes into hand luggage. Including books. Everything heavy in to the hand luggage. Get strong and pretend its light
Lukem6 - on 21 Aug 2012
In reply to tonanf: they don't sell the confiscated gear. They destroy all after they've held it for a while. Cams are dangerous weapons after all!
Richard Alderton - on 21 Aug 2012
It would be lovely to think that the BMC could negotiate a clear list of acceptable climbing equipment. And it would be lovely to think that, if they did, the security goon would be capable of correctly enforcing it.

But anyone who thinks the cost to the BMC would not be negligible is kidding themselves. To be successful, there would need to be research, expert advice, lobbying, and possibly a brown envelope passed to the relevant Eurocrat.

And why would the Eurocrat even be interested? A very small special interest group wants to be able to take a long, complicated list of unusual and ostensibly dangerous items on board. Not even for use in-flight, but to save on baggage costs. There must be thousands of similar interest groups wanting to influence European aviation policy. Many of them have strong ethical or perhaps commercial reasons for their wishes, which are a lot more likely to influence Mr Eurocrat than 'because I'm going on holiday and don't want to pay for a hold bag'.
Howard J - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to sjc:

Firstly, no matter what the BMC says these things are potential weapons and the authorities aren't going to allow exceptions to the rules. And it would have to be agreed globally.

Secondly, there is a considerable risk that this won't be accepted everywhere, or that the items won't be correctly identified as exceptions, and you'll have your gear confiscated. Even if they were wrong, you'd risk losing your gear or losing your flight.

Thirdly, it's unnecessary. It's not difficult to pack everything within the standard hold allowance

I always used to put rock shoes, harness and draws into my hand luggage, on the grounds that if my hold luggage went astray I could still climb. But those were more innocent times. Many years ago a friend flew to the Alps carrying his ice axe on board and with all his krabs in a chain wrapped around his body. On a flight from Nairobi people were getting on board with Maasai spears. Times have changed and we have to adjust. It's a small inconvenience but no hardship.
SCrossley on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Howard J: Your quite correct, sorry for asking.
Richard Alderton - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Richard Alderton:
> But anyone who thinks the cost to the BMC would not be negligible is kidding themselves.

That should read: anyone who thinks the cost to the BMC would be negligible is kidding themselves

Legionreturns on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Richard Alderton:
Remind me to never pay *you* to write anything for me! No wonder you never get any work :p
AndrewHuddart - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Howard J:

Most of those arguements could be made against avalanche air bags which, following good lobbying, are now accepted in their various flavours by almost all airlines.

Nowt wrong with a bit of lobbying. Security isn't absolute, it's always supposed to be proportionate. If the BMC (and indeed Govt through DCMS) can help its Members and the wider community, then it's worth a punt.
Legionreturns on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to hindu:
So if I wanted to get something on board that I can use as a weapon, all I'd have to do is pretend to be a climber, then I could take a seagull smasher on rope and use it as a flail! Or do climbers become licenced... with id cards granting us permission to carry our racks? Hell we're a big enough percentage of the population... go for it! /sarcasm

I think airport have enough to worry about... any climber incapable of packing light should find a new hobby...or stick to stanage
silo - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to Semtex: I always take climbing gear and a full rack!you won't have a problem.
Howard J - on 22 Aug 2012
In reply to hindu:
> (In reply to Howard J)
>
> Most of those arguements could be made against avalanche air bags which, following good lobbying, are now accepted in their various flavours by almost all airlines.
>
>
I suspect that skiers are a lot more numerous and carry a lot more commercial clout than climbers. Even so, different airlines have more or less onerous rules about carrying these, and I believe you are not permitted to fly to the States with a loaded canister.
Simon Caldwell - on 23 Aug 2012
In reply to silo:
Every time this thread comes round there's always somebody who uses there own lucky experience to prove that nobody else has ever had any problems, despite all statements to the contrary...
Neil Williams - on 23 Aug 2012
In reply to Toreador:

Because airport screeners are human, occasionally you might get away with something - terrorists have in the past. But also because they are human, the only reasonable way to avoid trouble is to treat what is allowed or not with a human rather than rule-based view - i.e. "could you likely injure someone with it", if the answer is yes check it in.

Arguments with airport security staff are completely pointless - they have absolute power - you can complain about them afterwards if you like, but that still hasn't prevented you having to chuck your gear away. For the cost of a checked-in bag it really isn't worth it.

Neil

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