/ Quick draws in hand luggage
My thoughts are the same as usual, when this question gets asked on here once a month. If you want to take the risk of having them removed, go for it. If not, don't.
How would 'the authorities' know if you were a bona fide climber, or a knutter who wanted to get a knuckle-duster on the plane?
You'd be very lucky I think.
The BMC could approach the authorities (forgot who it was for the moment) with a list of items, nuts, treking pole, krabs, quick draws etcetra and they would go yeah or nay, that way a list could be produced, wether or not your nutter is immaterial, it is wether or not the item is deemed a weapon is the issue, obviously this would need to be pan border but if the bmc took a lead in the UK other national climbing bodies could do the same, it is actually cost free to ask so why not, the worst would be that they would explicitly say no quick draws in hand luggage, then at least people would know..
It`s all a joke anyway bottle of duty free vodka + rag = Molotov and a swiss army knife as you can buy after security certainly at Geneva certainly makes a quick draw seem harmless
I'm not surprised, what planet do you live on if you think international air travel security is dictated by a bunch of climbers in an old church in Didsbury? (no offence intended to my much respected friends who do so much to look after our interests in other arenas). Most climbers have enough gumption to work out how to get a pair's climbing and camping gear into two 20kg (or even 16kg)hold bags taking clothes as hand luggage.
They could I suppose but they've enough to do in the UK. 70m rope 18 QD's harness comes in at around 10-12kg anyway. Clothes in cabin baggage (10kg Ryan Air) no problem.
Your not listeneing are you.
Some climbers would like to take QD`s in hand Luggage, this fact is a proven fact as evidenced by the regular posts on UKC.
There is a central UK body for airport security who would talk to a representative body of any group and give a definitive answer for a list of items for hand luggage.
The BMC is OUR representative body.
This process incurs NO COSTS.
If this was succesful it`s not a great leap for similair bodies in other countries to do the same.
A list of allowed and banned equipment could be posted on the BMC website at the cost of 10p, and everyone would know where they are.
So this would help some climbers and have minimal cost, what exactly is the problem.
> Your not listeneing are you.
No, you arn't
> Some climbers would like to take QD`s in hand Luggage, this fact is a proven fact as evidenced by the regular posts on UKC.
The authorities already give a definitive list of baned items including knuckledusters which arguably include karabiners
> This process incurs NO COSTS.
how many man hours of BMC staff wages do you think it would take for this doomed negotiation (not to mention expenses)? Most of us would far rather see this valuable and limited resource used to protect access and other essential interests rather than compensation for those lacking the initiative to pack their luggage properly
From all the replies to this question whenever it comes up on UKC, and the information provided by the airlines and airports we already know exactly where we are.
Er, see above
The difficulty is that you have to comply with the rules of the country you fly from, the country you fly to, and any countries you pass through. The rules are more or less consistent because they all cover obvious items. It is fairly straightforward for them to list items which are banned, but much harder to identify exceptions which should be permitted.
It's unlikely quickdraws would be permitted, because a karabiner could be used as a weapon. But even if they were to be losted as permitted items, would you want to rely on a random non-climbing security guard anywhere in the world being able to identify one? Do you really want to risk the cost and inconvenience of losing your essential climbing gear?
The fact is, it shouldn't be a problem. I flew to Kalymnos recently with a 60m rope and my gear including quickdraws (and a helmet), all within Ryanair's 15kg hold luggage limit. With 20kg allowance you should have plenty. Most of my clothes went in my hand luggage, and I wore as much as possible on the flight.
Get yourself a cheap set of scales, think hard about what you need to take, and pack carefully. You'll be fine.
You could avoid baggage charges from "budget" operators by flying BA.
They let you take all your sporting kit in the hold with very few exeptions.
Agreed, this whole "issue" has arisen because of the punitive way in which operators charge for hold baggage. When I were a lad your carry-on baggage was a washbag, change of shirt and something to read.
One positive outcome of this thread is that I've now got an extra criterion for choosing which screwgate to buy...
That's exactly what I had on me when I last flew to Kathmandu. How did I manage without my laptop, ebook and iPhone? ;)
How on earth do you go over 20kG ? if you have that much stuff pack the draws in hold and carry shoes in hand luggage.
> how many man hours of BMC staff wages do you think it would take for this doomed negotiation (not to mention expenses)?
It took me one face book posting to find the correct authority.
One phone call to find out the Procedure.
So I reckon it would take the BMC say 8 hours max.
1 hour to draft a letter and put it and a few pictures in an envelope and then maybe a couple more letters.
Not a big deal. Obviously not an issue to you but it is to some others.
I would prefer to travel with Harness, QDs and Rock Shoes in Cabin Baggage.
Karabiner = Knuckleduster
Broken Whisky Bottle = Knife
so why are you allowed to buy Duty Frees ?
"so why are you allowed to buy Duty Frees"
Because it is a lucrative business for airlines and airports.
Don't do it....I've been in quite a few altercations with airport officials and always in the loosing end of it. A couple of times they agreed to send it down for me and I got it back at my destinations...but a couple of other ones the altercations got a bit nasty and they just "punished" me, if you know what I mean.
The problem is that no matter what the BMC negotiates, no matter what the airlines say, none of it matters to the security goon who's having a bad day and doesn't like your face.
Yes, you can jump up and down and say "but...but...but the airline and the BMC have agreed that these are allowed" but at the end of the day your krabs will not be getting on the flight.
There is no point the BMC getting into negotiation with airlines/countries/etc when one unpleasant idiot on security can very effectively nullify the lot.
Yes, later on, you might be able to prove that you were right,. but that wouldn't actually change the fact you had missed your flight and/or had to fly without krabs.
As to your comment about duty free, sorry, are you looking for sense and consistency in the rules concerning items that can be taken on a flight?
The whole debacle about liquids was prompted by a scare that several liquids mixed together could become explosive. Someone tried mixing said liquids in a controlled environment on the ground and proved it's effectively impossible to mix said liquids to get an explosion without a *lot* of bulky lab kit.
Doesn't affect the fact we can't carry on liquids anymore.
JH (who has had rope nicked on a prior occasion as he could apparently tie up the cabin staff)
> The problem is that no matter what the BMC negotiates, no matter what the airlines say, none of it matters to the security goon who's having a bad day and doesn't like your face.
At this point you pull out the PDF printed off the BMC website with agreed list and picture of item. Obviously it is here that they pull on the latex gloves and you curse the name of sjc to the high heavens :-(
Unfortunately said bad-tempered security goon will then say "well, you could have typed that and printed it yourself" - while, as you say, looking forward to the prospect of making you miss your flight in a painful way...
Problem is the security goons appear to be a law unto themselves. Personally I agree with you that a lighter and a bottle of vodka are a lot more dangerous than krabs or a rope, but common sense appears to be something that left the security staff some time ago - perhaps they have a recruitment policy which specifically excludes anyone with brain cells?
And to think all this getting f*cked while travelling is ultimately paid for in all ways by us, the consumer.
In Switzerland it is very professional and run by the cantonal police force - but the prohibited items are the same sort of thing.
I thought the point of carry-on hand luggage was so you could take on board things you might need or have access to during the flight, such as a book, a coat, a laptop maybe. ?
Yeah, it isn't as if anyone has ever tried to hijack a plane is it?
surely a carabiner is no more of a weapon than a camera, duty free bottle or any other solid item?
> I thought the point of carry-on hand luggage was so you could take on board things you might need or have access to during the flight, such as a book, a coat, a laptop maybe. ?
Yes and the point of a headline advertised fare is that it allows you plus a reasonable amount of luggage to travel to the destination for that price.
> Unfortunately said bad-tempered security goon will then say "well, you could have typed that and printed it yourself" - while, as you say, looking forward to the prospect of making you miss your flight in a painful way...
> Problem is the security goons appear to be a law unto themselves. Personally I agree with you that a lighter and a bottle of vodka are a lot more dangerous than krabs or a rope, but common sense appears to be something that left the security staff some time ago - perhaps they have a recruitment policy which specifically excludes anyone with brain cells?
A bit harsh on the blokes on minimum wage who have to apply the policies, or do you think they make the signs banning deadly toenail clippers themselves? The loss of commonsense is a lot further up the foodchain. Plus do you really think they can spend the time arguing with every single passenger about the relative lethal properties of every single item of luggage? As a general rule if it's a bit pointy or I could smash someone's face in with it I tend not to put it in my hand luggage. By following these commonsense rule I have mysteriously avoided encountering the legions of educationally subnormal goons who harass other passengers.
> surely a carabiner is no more of a weapon than a camera, duty free bottle or any other solid item?
So as I could garrote you with my shoelaces, shove my biro through your temple or cut your throat with a credit card, we might as well let people on the plane with machetes?
> Yeah, it isn't as if anyone has ever tried to hijack a plane is it?
With quick draws? No, I don't think anybody has tried.
You seem to be confusing "is a more effective weapon" with "isn't a more effective weapon".
Climbing harnesses can apparently be used to tie people up. Whereas belts and neck ties cannot.
I take my hat off to the OP, but feel it's now time to call TROLL and award the full 10 points. Good job sir/madam!
> You seem to be confusing "is a more effective weapon" with "isn't a more effective weapon".
Nope, just indulging in whataboutery ;-)
Although FWIW I reckon a HMS krab would be far more useful in a scrap than a bottle of duty-free...
Not sure I'd risk it but Joe seems happy to.
Good advice here also
Wedding boxes are great for hand luggage and hold everything, yet weigh nothing. I can get my entire trad rack and two ropes into a rucksack, under 20 kilo's including 30 meter static... just for the hell of it.
All clothes into hand luggage. Including books. Everything heavy in to the hand luggage. Get strong and pretend its light
But anyone who thinks the cost to the BMC would not be negligible is kidding themselves. To be successful, there would need to be research, expert advice, lobbying, and possibly a brown envelope passed to the relevant Eurocrat.
And why would the Eurocrat even be interested? A very small special interest group wants to be able to take a long, complicated list of unusual and ostensibly dangerous items on board. Not even for use in-flight, but to save on baggage costs. There must be thousands of similar interest groups wanting to influence European aviation policy. Many of them have strong ethical or perhaps commercial reasons for their wishes, which are a lot more likely to influence Mr Eurocrat than 'because I'm going on holiday and don't want to pay for a hold bag'.
Firstly, no matter what the BMC says these things are potential weapons and the authorities aren't going to allow exceptions to the rules. And it would have to be agreed globally.
Secondly, there is a considerable risk that this won't be accepted everywhere, or that the items won't be correctly identified as exceptions, and you'll have your gear confiscated. Even if they were wrong, you'd risk losing your gear or losing your flight.
Thirdly, it's unnecessary. It's not difficult to pack everything within the standard hold allowance
I always used to put rock shoes, harness and draws into my hand luggage, on the grounds that if my hold luggage went astray I could still climb. But those were more innocent times. Many years ago a friend flew to the Alps carrying his ice axe on board and with all his krabs in a chain wrapped around his body. On a flight from Nairobi people were getting on board with Maasai spears. Times have changed and we have to adjust. It's a small inconvenience but no hardship.
That should read: anyone who thinks the cost to the BMC would be negligible is kidding themselves
Remind me to never pay *you* to write anything for me! No wonder you never get any work :p
Most of those arguements could be made against avalanche air bags which, following good lobbying, are now accepted in their various flavours by almost all airlines.
Nowt wrong with a bit of lobbying. Security isn't absolute, it's always supposed to be proportionate. If the BMC (and indeed Govt through DCMS) can help its Members and the wider community, then it's worth a punt.
So if I wanted to get something on board that I can use as a weapon, all I'd have to do is pretend to be a climber, then I could take a seagull smasher on rope and use it as a flail! Or do climbers become licenced... with id cards granting us permission to carry our racks? Hell we're a big enough percentage of the population... go for it! /sarcasm
I think airport have enough to worry about... any climber incapable of packing light should find a new hobby...or stick to stanage
> Most of those arguements could be made against avalanche air bags which, following good lobbying, are now accepted in their various flavours by almost all airlines.
I suspect that skiers are a lot more numerous and carry a lot more commercial clout than climbers. Even so, different airlines have more or less onerous rules about carrying these, and I believe you are not permitted to fly to the States with a loaded canister.
Every time this thread comes round there's always somebody who uses there own lucky experience to prove that nobody else has ever had any problems, despite all statements to the contrary...
Because airport screeners are human, occasionally you might get away with something - terrorists have in the past. But also because they are human, the only reasonable way to avoid trouble is to treat what is allowed or not with a human rather than rule-based view - i.e. "could you likely injure someone with it", if the answer is yes check it in.
Arguments with airport security staff are completely pointless - they have absolute power - you can complain about them afterwards if you like, but that still hasn't prevented you having to chuck your gear away. For the cost of a checked-in bag it really isn't worth it.
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