/ Winter question/debate #264900

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Cameron94 on 03 Nov 2012
Now that the season for the repetitive winter questions is upon us I'm surprised to see that the forum has gone so long without anyone asking how to properly pronounce Coire an t'Snechda yet!

I'll go first with Corrie an Shneckda (tried typing it how I say it)

So how do you pronounce it?



Ps. I don't mind the repetitive questions in any way, I often ask them myself... See above!
crustypunkuk - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:
stop stirring.
Its shhhh nach du.
Ben Sharp - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94: I think you've missed the boat on the "season for the repetitive winter questions". Try early October next year.
James Edwards - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:
It is pronounced "sphincter" and is gaelic for "corrie of the shits" due to the amount of winter climbers having a last nervous turd before going climbing.
Hope this clears up the mystery.
James
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

I am going to do a soundfile for this and will upload it on Monday I hope.

Such is the understanding of hill names by guides, outdoor centres and so on that they are pretty much the last people you should ask. If someone says "snekta" in a professional capacity, you should question other aspects of their mountain knowledge.
Cameron94 on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: I think I just might stick with "The Norries" then or noone will ever employ me!

I look forward to the soundfile!
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

You make a very good point re employment - such is the level of understanding in the climbing world that if you get it right you are a weirdo.
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

Sorry I forgot about this: http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/cairngorms/profiles/coire-an-t-sneachda.mp3

Note the pronunciation of "coire" which you can do more easily by saying "corra"
Cameron94 on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: Yeah I've heard that one before, it's still not as clear as I would like. Any chance you could spell it out?
Dave Kerr - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

There's no such thing as bad pronunciation just stupid spelling.
In reply to Saor Alba:


That's weird, back in the 90s it was perceived wisdom/urban myth that the correct pronunciation in Gallic was something closer sounding to "tray-eck". I think it was in the magazines. But that sounds nothing like this sound file.
In reply to Dave Kerr:

> There's no such thing as bad pronunciation just stupid spelling.

If you wrote that in Finnish it would make sense, but it doesn't make a lot written in English! :-)

(my bi-lingual son is learning to read currently so I'm noticing this!)
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Kerr:

That is only true if you have a basis of a language you are referring to. So yes, Snekta is wrong, always.
Dave Kerr - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

Why don't they just spell gaelic place names phonetically on OS maps? It would save all this debate.
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to TobyA:

Yes very true. The mountaineering establishment have allowed a situation to develop where 1) everyone feels very self conscious even using sounds that are alien to the English language (thankfully this is changing ref "Tour de France" in the media this summer) and 2) the established forms within mountaineering circles are totally wrong.

Re those sounds files, I think we need to think about learners as opposed to exact correctness, what ever that is. That person is from Staffin in Skye and the local usage of certain pronunciations is particular to that area.

However the key aspects of the phrase can be said with any accent. The "t-Sneachda" bit, the "t-sne" bit is key.
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Kerr:

Because no one understands the phonetic alphabet and they would be wrong.
Cameron94 on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Kerr: If that stupid spelling means that I can pronounce it properely then it's a win some lose some situiation.

Besides if it wasn't for debate UKC would be a very boring forum!
verygneiss - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Kerr:

They'd have to do it in IPA to do it phonetically, and most folk don't know IPA.

An important/tricky part of the pronounciation are the R in 'coire': this is palatalised, i.e. there is a subtle -ye- sound after the R (which is an alveolar flap), so it's closest to 'COR-yeh'. The other tricky part is the -chd- cluster, which is pronounced like the -ch- in 'loch' followed by a -k-, so like -TNECH-ka-.
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to verygneiss:

Math dha ri-ribh!
James Edwards - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Cameron94)
>
> Such is the understanding of hill names by guides, outdoor centres and so on that they are pretty much the last people you should ask. If someone says "snekta" in a professional capacity, you should question other aspects of their mountain knowledge.

Donald, of course I understand that your reason d'tre for existence is to spread the Gaelic love but that statement that you just made is utter nonesence. I know most of the best guides and instructors in the uk and really contest your point that failing to fall into line with the gaelic cosh therefore means that they are rubbish at their jobs.

Have we all just slipped into a parralell universe where the words we say are more im

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James Edwards - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to James Edwards:
Continued...
Important than the actions we make?

James
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to James Edwards:

Actually you don't understand and your post is evidence of that. In fact I'd I'd say you are some considerable distance away from understanding where I am coming from.

Indeed I didn't say they were rubbish at their jobs. I said that the mountaineering establishment knows very little about Scottish hill names. No doubt the same is true in Wales and Cumbria etc.

I make the distinction between knowledge of mountaineering as a technical skill and collection of experiences and the knowledge of a landscape which can be understood through history, ecology, geology, place-names etc.

I am not referring to Gaelic. I am referring to the hills and mountains. If a mountain instructor goes to the Alps and settles in Chamonix, I don't think they could claim to have a decent understanding of the mountains without knowing their meanings and pronunciation. They would rightly correct the visiting climber using "agweel" for aiguille.

Likewise if someone say with an interest in place-names hires out a guide or goes on a course and they hear their instructor using "snekta" even though the client knows much better, they would rightly question why a clearly incorrect term is being encouraged.

The same is true of Norse. It's purely by chance that Gaelic is by far the most prominent language in Scottish hills names. Nothing to do with which language, everything to do with taking the time to immerse, consider and understand and from there, encourage education.

Regarding actions the first ones I would take would be to stop using the wrong terms such as "snekta", "boonie doon", "cheesecake" etc. Secondly education is the most important giving the tools to mountain leaders to interpret and understand what is written on a map. In the Scottish context that means understand some Gaelic pronunciation and knowing where to get more knowledge and how to impart that. This might be done by a place such as Glenmore Lodge, a national centre for Scotland, enhancing it's status as a centre of excellence beyond just mountaineering itself to one that promotes a deeper understanding of the Scottish hills.
Erik B - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to James Edwards: "It was indeed very much like having sex with death. Definitely a one night stand."

i think Dhonuildh has a point,the language of guides these days is outrageous!
Erik B - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: indeed sir, a good example is Cac Carn Mor,or hill of the big shite - its name is important as describes the character of the hill and helps with navigation and spatial awareness during a whiteout
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Erik B:

Very true. Indeed a remember the story of snuggling up between yourself and Burnsie? Or am I wrong with names?
Erik B - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: that wasnt me thankfully, that was Coulthard.. benighted in the middle of a cat 5 avalanche slope and too feart to move apparently..
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Erik B:

Ahright. Hope he used his spanish eyes.
James Edwards - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
You are fighting the battles in the wrong order.
1. Get independance
2. Then persecute people for slights against Gaelic.
3. Impose fine.
4. Ring fence revenue for yet more gaelic road signs.

Sounds like a good plan?
James the sass
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to James Edwards:

I'll take your post as a demonstration of my point;-).
James Edwards - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
Let's just agree that I'll climb in my hills and call them what I like and you climb in yours and call them what you like. If we don't agree then let's just use os grid co-ordinates rather than you go off on one because I put 2 r's in corie or like the term "norries", which incidentally I believe I first corned on here.
James
Alex Slipchuk on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94: say : Kori n'tray-achk, and you'll not be far wrong. You'll prob also rarely hear it correctly even from local guides in the honeypot in winter.
Alex Slipchuk on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: I've just listened to the soundfile, is this the same case as islay and skye which are rarely pronounced correctly by the locals themselves? My pronunciation came from Rab Anderson's climber and hillwalker supplement to the norries circa 93. I've always pronounced it this way. But open to correction, as I do feel very strongly about the correct use of the language.
george mc - on 03 Nov 2012
Erik B - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man: remember that supplement well

i have always called it and still call it sneghda

it should be renamed Coire an Jebh Righ though
jonnie3430 - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to James Edwards:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)

> the term "norries", which incidentally I believe I first corned on here.
> James

Ah, but is it left norrie, or right norrie? Or the middle fickle?
Cuthbert on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:

There is not that much variation in Gaelic, despite what some might say. I will try to do an easier soundfile on Monday and upload it.
Alex Slipchuk on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to Erik B: its a shame, it's getting like back closes in govanhill
Erik B - on 03 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:
> back closes in govanhill

>

:)

Nigel Thomson - on 04 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Cameron94)
>
> .
>
> Such is the understanding of hill names by guides, outdoor centres and so on that they are pretty much the last people you should ask. If someone says "snekta" in a professional capacity, you should question other aspects of their mountain knowledge.

Stop talking shite, I'm an MIC, a BMG guide, Scottish and I I've probably forgotten more about climbing in that coire than you'll ever know.
It's of no real relevance to climbers as it's only a winter playground so chill out, keep yer hauns off Alex Salmonds boaby and the next time you see Nicola Sturgeon tell her to get those eyebrows plucked coz they scare the shit out of me!!

Milesy - on 05 Nov 2012
No this again.

Bottom line - Language evolves and it is only important to the speakers and recievers of a word what the meaning is. The name of the corrie is primarily used by climbers and the majority of those climbers say snek-ta/schnek-ta.

If you are sitting in the Aviemore Gaelic Pronounciation Society's annual dinner and ceilidh then you can argue about the proper Gaelic pronounciation all you want - what is important to climbers is just a word pronounced in a way which conveys the meaning to other climbers. Words, meanings and pronounciations get corrupted all the time - it is the way of the language world. Deal with it.
jhw - on 05 Nov 2012
So what's the answer?
Cameron94 on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to jhw: Apparently the best way to not go wrong is with; The Norries.
If you want to say it properely you'll have to listen to the sound files because I can't spell it ;-)

Cheers for the input everyone!
Andy Moles - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Unfortunately I think you've got a long way to go before pronouncing it properly is the norm. At present a lot of people wouldn't know what you were talking about, and others would just think you're being pedantic. I know a plenty of people who have a fair idea how to say 'Coire an t-Sneachda' properly, but mostly just call it 'shnekta' for a quiet life.
Cuthbert on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Moles:

Yes you are right but a lot comes from the culture and the culture of the mountaineering establishment is one of self consciousness and the easy way of life.

I am trying to get a media player for my work's website and then operate a pronunciation request service.
yer maw on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94: what if you're needing mountain rescue and are a staunch defender of the Garlic faith. You proudly pronounce over your weakening signal some pronunciation the man on the end of the phone can't understand and does indeed think this is a sure sign you're hypothermic and slurring your speech. Then the phone konks out. The Bobbie phones Central Government for an interpreter thinking at best it was Urdu (or the like)whereas if you'd said Brayreeach or Corrie Snekta, or even Coire Braw-tan the infantry would be mobilised and your ass is saved.

Who cares cause we all know where you're climbing and more importantly have you enjoyed it and spending money in the local pub afterwards?
Dave Kerr - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Moles:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
>
> I know a plenty of people who have a fair idea how to say 'Coire an t-Sneachda' properly, but mostly just call it 'shnekta' for a quiet life.

Or perhaps they genuinely just don't give a monkeys?
Jonay - on 05 Nov 2012
In reply to yer maw:

then you give a grid reference.

and chances are that if you know the name of your location - you'll know where it is on the map.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Kerr:

Perhaps they dont and I have no problem with that. The point I am making is that mountaineers in Scotland, in general, are not authorities on mountains in Scotland.
Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

And neither are people sitting in rooms with books. People are free to use whatever language is appropriate to them to convey message and meaning.

The name coire an t-sneachda is by far used more by mountaineers and climbers than non-mountaineers so if that means a name is anglicised or corrupted than unfortunately that is the way of the world of language.
MG - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Dave Kerr)
>
> Perhaps they dont and I have no problem with that. The point I am making is that mountaineers in Scotland, in general, are not authorities on mountains in Scotland.

Well very few if any people will be "authorities" on all aspects of mountains. It would require an intimate knowledge of the geology, flora, fauna, shooting, climbing, skiing, walking, weather and any number of other matters related to mountains. The average mountaineer will have a decent knowledge of at least some of these, and probably more than the average Gaelic speaker. In the scheme of things, knowing (or not) how to pronounce Gaelic names is a pretty trivial matter.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:

Actually they can be authorities if the medium allows it. I am simply referring to what is written on a map. Can a mountaineer be an authority on an area if they don't have faintest idea of what is written on the landscape. This is an issue of landscape interpretation, not Gaelic or any specific language.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to MG:

Correct, people like Adam Watson fall into that category. I mere make the point that the majority of mountaineers in Scotland are unable to understand what is written on the map. Correct also on knowledge of other subjects. That could be widened to understanding the names.
MG - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Milesy)
>
> Actually they can be authorities if the medium allows it. I am simply referring to what is written on a map. Can a mountaineer be an authority on an area if they don't have faintest idea of what is written on the landscape. This is an issue of landscape interpretation, not Gaelic or any specific language.

I think most mountaineers will be able to interpret a map effectively, and probably understand common place names in Gaelic (or French or German) even if they can't pronounce them well. So they could certainly claim to be knowledgeable. I don't think many would claim more than that.

Kid Spatula - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

Most pedantic thread ever. I'm going to start calling it Snekta now purely out of spite.

Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Milesy)
>
> Actually they can be authorities if the medium allows it. I am simply referring to what is written on a map. Can a mountaineer be an authority on an area if they don't have faintest idea of what is written on the landscape. This is an issue of landscape interpretation, not Gaelic or any specific language.

Names are just symbols. They truly have no further meaning. Does it make any difference to a mountaineer if a top means hill of the deer or hill or the stag? Or is it only important they know the name is attached to a location in order to be able to navigate or refer to it.

Corruption happens all the time and meanings are lost in translation or through the passage of time.

You just need to read the background on many Gaelic place names and you will hear something like "the general consensus" and talk about different possible meanings for a name. Take for example Creise. They still can't decide for final what it means.

MG - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy: I broadly agree with you. Names change over time and "Corry an Snekta" is probably the most widely used and understood pronunciation now. Insisting on (one of the many) Gaelic pronunciations is pedantic and, like insisting Paris is "Paree", a bit up yourself.

I do sort of see SA's point about history - Gaelic names sometimes tell you something about how land was previously seen or used, which can be interesting but is fairly marginal for most people.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to MG:

Disagree and I know a fair amount about this. If we were out on the hill and you saw "Cnap Coire na Spreidhe" I think 99.9% of mountaineers wouldn't know where to start.

If you then said "Garradh na Ciste" then the same would be true. They could claim to be knowledgeable but that would be relative to the general knowledge which fairly low. This is illustrated by the general understanding exhibited here. Anyone with a knowledge on this would never say "Gaelic names sometimes tell you something about how land was previously seen or used" as they would know that this statement isn't true.

To Milsey, you are completely incorrect and prove my point quite well. If an experienced mountaineer comes out with "Names are just symbols. They truly have no further meaning" then even the context never mind the detail is lost on you.

Where you are 100% correct is does it make any difference to the mountaineer. Clearly it doesn't. I have no problem with that but it means that mountaineers don't know a huge amount about the medium they travel through.

You also illustrate one of the great misunderstandings which keeps getting rolled out - that of the "You just need to read the background on many Gaelic place names and you will hear something like "the general consensus" and talk about different possible meanings for a name. Take for example Creise. They still can't decide for final what it mean" which is so far from the truth that it's almost irrlevant. There are only about 1% of names this applies to and it applies just as much to any language.
MG - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
Anyone with a knowledge on this would never say "Gaelic names sometimes tell you something about how land was previously seen or used" as they would know that this statement isn't true.


When you come out with things like this I start to wonder about everything else you say about Gaelic. It clearly is true that "Gaelic names sometimes tell you something about how land was previously seen or used". There are any number of references to colours, bogs, birds, animals etc. in Gaelic place names Are you really claiming these are in no way describing aspects the features they are attached to?
Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> To Milsey, you are completely incorrect and prove my point quite well. If an experienced mountaineer comes out with "Names are just symbols. They truly have no further meaning" then even the context never mind the detail is lost on you.

I don't care about the context or the detail. I really don't give a monkey's that someone some hundreds of years ago decided hey that coire is full of snow. Let's call it coire of the snow, or coire of the lochan, coire of the wild stag or coire of the swedish girls. They are just reference points. Symbols.

Symbol. 1.A thing that represents or stands for something else, esp. a material object representing something abstract.

The hills are there for my own enjoyment, not to philosophise what some farmer, clan or community decided to name a long time ago.

> it means that mountaineers don't know a huge amount about the medium they travel through.

And I again I emphasise - who cares? Why should they? They go there for the mountains themselves. The features, the rocks, the plateaux, the wildlife, the flora and fauna. Not for archaic meanings and names.

> There are only about 1% of names this applies to and it applies just as much to any language.

And in enough time other Gaelic names (as well as Norse, English, Roman) and others will eventually pass into lore and legend. No one will know what Gaelic was or who spoke it like people sit at books pondering the ancient common ancestor between Greek and Sandskrit. Not everyone cares about preserving languages as static entities and there is no shame in that. It is the way of the world if it wasn't for book worms.

My own town name Airdrie, no one knows the true meaning of as it has been corrupted over time. Do 99% of the population of Airdrie know what it stands for or care what it stands for? I doubt it very much. Does that mean people in Airdrie are not allowed to live there or are somehow inferior inhabitants.
James Edwards - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
You see that bit where you said "how land was previously seen or used" well how about how it is used and seen now by the majority of people; or does the gaelic cosh top trump everything and preserve it in aspic (unlike all other languages which evolve - do you think that we all speak just like the Elizabethans?)

Now Donald, you know i'm fair minded about this - indeed did i not recomend you as the fountain of all gealic to have some input into the new SMC and SMC trust publications on pronounciations - but i still can't let your first comment go that not being able to prounouce a word how you want it pronounced means that a client should then question other aspects of a guide / instructors knowledge. That is patently absurd. I have done 30 odd skye ridge traverses and still haven't settled on a pronounciation of some of the hills does this means my clients went away dissapointed?

Take for instance the fact that to most people heather is heather which is fine but to some people it is Calluna vulgaris and then there are indeed other subtle varieties of heather too. Do i go to the garden centre in Band Q and ask them all to brush up on their latin?

Also one of my old climbing partners who did indeed live in Chamonix and spoke french but always used the term 'ageeel' when refering to mountains. He was not persecuted or ostracised anymore than a lad from the Black Country is normally (!) indedd as i remember he was a bit of a hit with the French ladies.

So my vote is that we change the map to 'Norries', 'Sneky' and 'Lockan'. Who's with me comrades; the revolution begins now!!!!

James
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Howard J - on 06 Nov 2012
Most non-Gaelic speakers (which includes most Scots as well as English) will never have heard any of these place names pronounced by a native speaker of the language. It is only very recently that it has become possible to listen to them via the internet, but even native speakers seem to pronounce some of the names differently.

If it's any consolation, English speakers often don't pronounce English place names "correctly" either.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to MG:

I think you start to wonder as your inherent view of the world is deeply conservative, despite what you say. You spend hours arguing for no change and resist anything that might challenge the status quo. Indeed, on many subject you don't even want to have a discussion and argue even the basis of why someone might want to change something. Until you move from this conservative position you will continue to have to argue about almost everything.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:

You need to see what I said above re caring. I have no problem with that.

You exibit the point I make quite well with your belief that place-names are somehow very uncertain. This comes from the fact that formal education makes almost no effort to inform young people on place-names. Airdrie is pretty simple:

Airdrie, An rd Ruigh.
"The high slope".
jonnie3430 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Milesy)
>
> Airdrie, An rd Ruigh.
> "The high slope".

Pish: Airdrie, Ard Righ,
"High King," or "King's heights."
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to James Edwards:

You did email me and I replied. No one from the SMC other than yourself has contacted me and I've heard nothing since.

You keep misunderstanding what I am saying and that is leading you to put words into my mouth. I am saying that if a professional mountaineer is unable to understand and/or interpret the names of the landscape they travel through then it's a fair point to say that they aren't hugely knowledgeable about that landscape. Place-names are a fundamental part of landscapes, not just an appendage. Of course they might know about geology etc but a holistic knowledge is required.

To give you an example, if an instructor spends a season heading into Coire an t-Sneachda and they have no idea how to say it then it's a fair question to ask if they actually know much about the landscape at all. If they haven't even the faintest idea of the meaning of Coire Cas, Coire an Lochain and Coire Laoigh Mr then they have a fair way to go.

To use your own example, if someone is into moorland plants then it's a fair expectation to know what the latin name is and it's meaning. If they were teaching and leading others and one of their pupils asked them what Calluna Vulgaris meant and they had no idea then that pupil would rightly start to question if they know much about these plants.

Good luck with the revolution as you have to change SMC policy. Let us know when you have done that.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Sorry wrong: http://www.gaelicplacenames.org/databasedetails.php?id=72

Which source are you citing?
jonnie3430 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Howard J:
> Most non-Gaelic speakers (which includes most Scots as well as English)

98.8% of Scots, from the last census.
>
> If it's any consolation, English speakers often don't pronounce English place names "correctly" either.

This made me smile, it reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn9Wcy88Np4
jonnie3430 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

It SOUNDS like it's right. And you can't ask for my source without declaring your own first. And just cos someone has decided that it's the "offical," gaelic spelling of Airdrie, isn't a source.
Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> Pish: Airdrie, Ard Righ,
> "High King," or "King's heights."

Haha thanks mate. The theory of the King's Height coming from the fact that a battle took place between the King of Strathclyde and the Picts in Airdrie and it was regarded as a strategic vantage as you could see out across the full Clyde valley.

It has also been cited as coming from the gaelic Airidh meaning the wayside town. Airdrie has a large roman road going through it, and was a popular stopping place.

There is a written reference from the 1600s where the town was spelled as Airdry rather than Airdrie.
jonnie3430 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> The theory of the King's Height....
>
I made that up, are you just trolling Donald now...
Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> To use your own example, if someone is into moorland plants then it's a fair expectation to know what the latin name is and it's meaning.

I think the group of people you might be referring to are geographers, or maybe geoligists. People who have an academic interest in the features and their names.

Experienced Mountaineers can tell you all about how to navigate safely in a mountain environment, how to climb and protect a climb, snow craft and avalanche science.

I think you are mixing up your Ps and Qs here.
jonnie3430 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Howard J:
>
> If it's any consolation, English speakers often don't pronounce English place names "correctly" either.

I would love to change the spelling to make it phonetic here though: London would be Laaaaaaaandan, I wouldn't know where to start with Liverpool...
Gael Force - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
The main thing that is important about a mountaineering instructor in Scotland is wither they can instruct mountaineering safely and competently in that country.
Wither they can speak Gaelic or not is unfortunately irrelevant to most, wither they know about plants would also be irrelevant to most.
If Ueli Steck was offering guided days out in the Cairngorms I would go with him,even though he probably knows little about the Scotland, rather than some Gaelic boffin who knows about plants.
The same applies to choosing winter climbing partners, knowledge of Gaelic or plants is not even on the list I used to study Gaelic at school, but unfortunately gave it up, and remember little now.

As a fairly passionate highlander,born in Orkney, living in exile, I don't take it to the extremes which you seem to, although I do find some English pronunciations annoying, particularly the term 'Norries'
I am also irritated by the huge amounts of money wasted in writing road signs in Gaelic, I don't think there are Gaelic speakers who can't speak English so why are we wasting all this money.
As my father, a Gaelic speaker, used to say, if the SNP ever get into power in Scotland I am emigrating!
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:

Sorry to be a pain but Airdrie is fairly clear. Airidh means shieling in Gaelic, old and modern.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Gael Force:

Ueli Steck wouldn't try though and fair enough. I bet you though if you asked any Swiss guide about the importance of understanding the text on a map then they would take a very different attitude to that being displayed here.

The signs are there are many, most, of the place-names on them are in Gaelic. The cost is tiny as the signs would have to be put up anyway. 30,000 is the last figure I hearf from Highland Council. That's out of a budget of 500million + so a tiny cost.
jonnie3430 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Not that clear, you just said it meant "high slope!"
paul-1970 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:
In answer to the original question: Corry-n tray-ack. This version I have read from my copy of the SMC's Cairngorms guide. And I'm more than happy to accept Dr Adam Watson's word on the subject!

My fourpenneth, for what it's worth, is that I believe any name, whether it be a place or belonging to a person, should be pronounced 'properly'. Perhaps the sound or intonation of the proper manner of pronounciation may vary between native speakers depending on their accent and upbringing, but essentially a word is pronounced one way in a language. Words do change both their spelling, styling and pronounciation, but any amendment is the prerogative of the native speaker - not the person who does not speak the language but seeks to change the word in order to make it easier for them to pronounce. It would be rather comical and risible if I or a 'consensus' of non-Arabic speakers sought to change the pronounciation of some words in the Koran based on how we had decided they should be pronounced.

But... I do confess that I do occasionally pronounce Coire an t-Sneachda as 'Corry-n Shneckda'. I also sometimes pronouce it as 'Corry-n tray-ack' too. The first version I use if speaking to climbers and other hillwalkers. This version is immediately recognised and I know it communicates what I am speaking about to them. And to my Gaelic-language speaking colleagues or friends, I use the latter version. This also communicates to them what I am speaking about. I understand that if I am being consistent with my argument above, then I have committed the sin of wilful mispronounciation. But so often in conversation communication is key, and by my usage of both of the above pronounciations, I communicate perfectly well - at least perceptually - to both sets of people I communicate with.
Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Milesy)
> [...]
> I made that up, are you just trolling Donald now...

If you made that up then you made a pretty good guess as that definition has been one which has been discussed on many times.

Airdrie a Historical Sketch, James Knox, http://www.scribd.com/doc/15921209/Airdrie-a-Historical-Sketch

The imperial gazetteer of Scotland; or, Dictionary of Scottish topography, compiled from the most recent authorities, and forming a complete body of Scottish geography, physical, statistical, and historical

AIRD, or Ann, any isolated height, of an abrupt
or hummocky character, either on the coast or in
the interior. The name by itself, chiefly in the
form of Aird, occurs sometimes, yet not often, in
Scottish topography ; but in combination, as a pre-
fix, chiefly in the form of Ard, it is of veiy frequent
occurrence. Some words compounded with it refer
to legendary circumstances, as Airdrie, " the king's
height;" others refer to events in authentic history,
as Ardchattan, " the height of Catan," one of the
companions of Columba; but the great majority are
descriptive of the localities themselves, as to either
character or relative situation, as Ardclach, " the
stony height," Ardnamurchan, " the height of the
narrow seas."

I can give you other academic sources if you wish.
Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Milesy)
>
> Sorry to be a pain but Airdrie is fairly clear. Airidh means shieling in Gaelic, old and modern.

You are being very narrow minded and trying to interpret one possible origin of the word "Airdrie" not other origins.
Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
"Concise historical proofs respecting the Gael of Alban : or, Highlanders of Scotland, with short notices of the Highland clans, and a dissertation on the Gaelic topography of Scotland, also explanatory notes, map, illustrations, and descriptions of the country of the Gael",

"it is perhaps as perfect as any that
exists in Britain, its site is therefore interesting
and has been marked in the map. Airdrie
occurs in the counties of Fife, and Lanark, its
etymology is from the Gaelic words ' Airde-righ,'
pronounced very nearly as in the English spell-
ing, and means, ' the king's height,"

Want some more references?

Keep in mind I am not saying any of them are correct or incorrect, only that the various possibilities have been discussed many times by many people.
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Erik B - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: while place names have an importance in a human context, they have no relevance whatsoever in a natural context,they are a human creation! as Ive stated before, what relevance or impact on 'experience' does understanding that Cac Carn Mor translates to Hill of the Big Shite have? other than to raise a minor smirk?

no_more_scotch_eggs - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Erik B:

Always thought it was big shitty stony hill

And wondered how it got that name... Was the cartographer having a really bad day or something...?
MG - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: What are you on about? I was asking whether you really thought Gaelic place names have no relevance to how places were previously used or seen and you come up with that!

Taking it at face value it is rather ironic given that it is you arguing for the use of place names from centuries ago and me for modern ones. Further, I see your translation of Airdrie relates directly to how the place was once used. You are very odd.
Alex Slipchuk on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to James Edwards)
>

just to be a shit stirrer (like it erik b?) when using the proper scientifc method of naming species in the biological world, or taxonomy, it is never reffered to as latin names, always scientific names. Which is expressed in Latin with the first world capitalized and both italics. The term Latin names is forbidden in the world of biology.
Alex Slipchuk on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man: btw the only animal with the same English name and scientific name is...? Anyone?
wee jamie on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man: chooky pig?
jonnie3430 - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:

cuckoo?

And it tells you too: Cuckoo cuckoo.
Alex Slipchuk on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to wee jamie: close, But no cigar.
James Edwards - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:
If there was a facebook 'like' i would click it myself for your post. I love scientific accuracy and so am off to beat myself with some Betula right now to make up for my error;(
Mea cupla, mea maxima culpa!
Cheers Big Man
James
parkovski - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
> [...]
>
> "...always scientific names".

Or Binomial classifications, or Linnean names... so not always really.

Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:

I am just going by what I know and the various bodies who give guidance on this.
Andy Moles - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> if a professional mountaineer is unable to understand and/or interpret the names of the landscape they travel through then it's a fair point to say that they aren't hugely knowledgeable about that landscape. Place-names are a fundamental part of landscapes, not just an appendage.

What makes the name so fundamental? The relationship between a word and the thing it describes is essentially arbitrary - what gives it value are the meanings that come to be associated with the words. And is a name any more than a very small shard of meaning? Some places are called different things by different people, and all will have different meanings for different people. What is so fundamentally important about saying the name right?
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Moles:

In the case of the link I posted above multiple sources would have been looked at including the OS name books and other maps dating back over many years.

I am not talking about saying it right. That is a long way off for most. I am saying that if you are a professional mountaineer such as an instructor etc then it is a reasonable expectation that you may have some idea of what the names on the map mean, their context and the ability to apply your knowledge without having it given to you.
Andy Moles - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> if you are a professional mountaineer such as an instructor etc then it is a reasonable expectation that you may have some idea of what the names on the map mean, their context and the ability to apply your knowledge without having it given to you.

I'm not disagreeing with this - but I think you're backtracking a little. Further up the thread you definitely were talking about saying it right as well. And perhaps suggesting that knowledge of names is of more fundamental importance than it really is?

Personally I would like both my understanding and pronunciation of hill names to be better, but I'm not sure this is down to any particularly noble cause, or I just like knowledge and want to sound clever.

Erik B - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: best thread in years, I salute your genius sir!

what is the context for Cac Carn Beag (Hill of the Wee Shite)?
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Moles:

Maybe the meaning of what I am saying is getting lost in the multiple arguments going on here.

Knowledge of names is fundamental to a rounded understanding of the Scottish hills in my view. By that I mean an understanding and an ability to interpret what you see.

Hopefully I can set up a sort of request system soon.
Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Erik B:

Geoffrey and Jeffrey are working on it. They are about to award the IML, the Internet Mountain Leader award certified by the British Braying Body.
yer maw on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Jonay:
> (In reply to yer maw)
>
> then you give a grid reference.
>
> and chances are that if you know the name of your location - you'll know where it is on the map.

you're forgetting the inability to pronounce Garlic properly equates to a complete lack of understanding of the mountains and all who sail in them. Get with the story dude and besides epic stories need epic failures.
Cameron94 on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94: How did this ever end up talking about cukoos?

Cuthbert on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

Who knows. Please bear with me folks and I will get some resources set up I hope.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Cameron94 on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: Could you pop me another email when you do, if you don't mind?
Alex Slipchuk on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to parkovski:
> (In reply to The Big Man)
> [...]
>
> Or Binomial classifications, or Linnean names... so not always really.

Oh dear, did i omit the word nearly before always. Fair point though. Got to give you that one, since the nature of this thread ;)
Milesy - on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Want a shovel to help? :)



dig





dig
Alex Slipchuk on 06 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:
> (In reply to The Big Man) btw the only animal with the same English name and scientific name is...? Anyone?

Boa ...? Ps my mobile doesn't do italics, or if it does, i can't find out how :(
jonnie3430 - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:
> (In reply to The Big Man)
> [...]
>
> Boa ...? Ps my mobile doesn't do italics, or if it does, i can't find out how :(

Nope, not Boa constrictor: "There are, according to Wikipedia, 10 subspecies of boa constrictor.

Boa constrictor amarali;
Boa constrictor constrictor
Boa constrictor imperator
Boa constrictor longicauda
Boa constrictor melanogaster
Boa constrictor nebulosa
Boa constrictor occidentalis
Boa constrictor orophias
Boa constrictor ortonii
Boa constrictor sabogae

So, if you had a pet snake (called "Fluffy" as pet snakes often seem to be) and said "this is my pet boa constrictor, whose common name is the same as its taxonomic name", you would, strictly speaking be wrong as you would be using the genus and species name but ignoring the subspecies name."

You may like this page: http://www.curioustaxonomy.net/puns/puns.html
nich0las - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: My favourite is the scientific name for the western lowland gorilla. Gorilla gorilla gorilla
Howard J - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Andy Moles)
>
> Knowledge of names is fundamental to a rounded understanding of the Scottish hills in my view. By that I mean an understanding and an ability to interpret what you see.
>
I agree it's part of it, although some way down the list compared with navigation, rope skills etc. It certainly adds to the enjoyment of a day out, just as being able to recognise birds and trees does, but it's not fundamental to being a mountaineer.

However you're confusing understanding place names with being able to pronounce them. I've got a general idea of some of the more common Gaelic elements in place names when I read them but I don't know how they're pronounced, and even native speakers don't seem to be able to agree in some cases. I know that when I see 'Coire an t-Sneachda' on a map it means "Corrie of the Snow". I don't need to be able to pronounce it in order to understand what it means.



rossn - on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to paul-1970: I agree with you're thoughts on this. I'm pretty sure I read this in Seaton Gordon's book about the Cairngorms written in 1925 + or - a year either way, which is long enough ago to have a bit of 'provenance', if I can use that word. His books are as much about the legends and stories behind place names as they are about the geography.

RN
Cuthbert on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to Howard J:

I am not confused about this and I agree with you. Understanding is key. Education is one of the great achievements of mankind and an understanding of hill names will enhance anyone's day in the hills.
a lakeland climber on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Listening to the pronunciations of Coire an t'Sneachda on the two sites listed on this thread gives two quite different versions. One may be described as the "English" version with a Scottish accent(!) whist the second is closer to the "tray ach" sound.

I think it's the transliteration of the latter that causes confusion, I'd put it closer to "TrrNECHteh" where the lower case letters indicate a softer sound.

I'm still no closer though!

ALC
Cuthbert on 07 Nov 2012
In reply to a lakeland climber:

Both of those people are native Gaelic speakers from Skye.

I'll record and easier soundfile asap. I am having some technical issues with getting it to play.
Jim Fraser - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

If you value this place then show it some respect.


http://www.speygaelic.org/userfiles/file/soundfiles/Coire%20an%20t-Sneachda.mp3
Milesy - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Jim Fraser:

Yeah because not being able to prounce the name of some rocks is disrespect?

Away and raffle yourself.
jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Jim Fraser:
> (In reply to Cameron94)
>
> If you value this place then show it some respect.
>
Why? It has no concept of respect, it is a Coire on a mountain. What you want respected is your idea that there is some mountaineering skill in pronouncing the name properly. It's the same attitude that means that you can't get your ML (which is a mountain safety award,) without knowing the different types of heather, or which bird can fly upside down, which is nothing to do with mountain safety.
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

I think he means respecting the cultural and linguistic heritage of the place.

Have you got your IML?
jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

I tell you what would be really useful, a UKC article on how mountaineering enjoyment can be increased by a knowledge of gaelic. Stick in the gaelic names you are likely to encounter and what that tells you about the mountains.

In the meantime, here is what I found:
http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/freefun/didyouknow/placenames/gaelicglossary-a-b.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Scottish_Gaelic_origin
http://www.stravaiger.com/blog/?p=103
What Cairngorm National Park has to say: http://cairngorms.co.uk/resource/docs/publications/23062006/CNPA.Paper.275.Place-Names%20Leaflet.pdf
http://www.stravaiger.com/blog/?p=97
From Glencoe: http://www.discoverglencoe.com/gaelic_place_names

Further reading: http://mountainviews.ie/features/names/DrummondReview/DrummondReview.htm?PHPSESSID=
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

I've done quite a few over the years and you can get them from the MCofS.
Milesy - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> I think he means respecting the cultural and linguistic heritage of the place.
>
> Have you got your IML?

You know when someone is standing in the coire cas car park saying coire an trek or whatever and 99% of the car park is saying sneachda... that pedant just looks like a pretentious clown. Majority rules. Deal with it. You are fighting a losing battle. The sooner Gaelic dies out the better.

jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> the cultural and linguistic heritage of the place.

As culture and language apply to humans, not a coire in the mountains, you mean the culture and language of the people living in the area? As the coire is uninhabited, there is no issue there. As for Aviemore, the closest town; it is English speaking, so very likely that the place would be pronounced Sneckta. The relevance of the way other people pronounce the name of a coire a few miles away probably does not crop up in the thoughts of an Avimorian (?) very often, so I'm not convinced by your argument.
>
> Have you got your IML?

I'm very interested in seeing how this has relevance, I am hesitant to tell you as I'm sure it's some trap that shows a lack of knowledge in the course structure.

jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> I've done quite a few over the years and you can get them from the MCofS.

Why don't you send it to UKC then? You obviously feel strongly about it!
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tony on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

That's an interesting leaflet. What I hadn't realised was that some words that I would have taken to be Gaelic are in fact pictish, predating Gaelic - such as Monadh, Easg, and prefixes such as Aber- and Pit-. So there's a bit more to Scottish placenames than just Gaelic and English.
jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to tony:

I'm pretty sure Pictish influence in Scottish place names is/was winter debate #234765, are you allowed to bring that up here. (If so I want a pictish language primary school on my doorstep so my kids can grow up speaking the original language of my country.)
Milesy - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

These modern Gaelic speakers don't know how to speak proper Celtic either. :( Shame. They are disrepectful of the Celtic language.
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

As I have already done these articles and they are available. I don't have the time to re-do what I have already done.
MG - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to tony:
So there's a bit more to Scottish placenames than just Gaelic and English.

Don't forget Arnie, with his dale.
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
> [...]
>
> As culture and language apply to humans, not a coire in the mountains, you mean the culture and language of the people living in the area? As the coire is uninhabited, there is no issue there. As for Aviemore, the closest town; it is English speaking, so very likely that the place would be pronounced Sneckta. The relevance of the way other people pronounce the name of a coire a few miles away probably does not crop up in the thoughts of an Avimorian (?) very often, so I'm not convinced by your argument.

Ok.
> [...]
>
> I'm very interested in seeing how this has relevance, I am hesitant to tell you as I'm sure it's some trap that shows a lack of knowledge in the course structure.

No, I mean the Internet Mountain Leader. You must be close now ;-)
jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to tony:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> That's an interesting leaflet.

I think so too, it has a heady smell of cac to me... If women really were walking from Rothiemurcus to Braemar to sell eggs then I think someone should have a look at that business plan! (Controversially!!!) I am not convinced in the slightest that Scots (described as a Germanic language,) is anything but slang, or regional dialect. That it has a relationship to a Germanic language is clear, that it's main relationship is to English is also clear (to me.)

Odd that it doesn't have bealach in it too.
MG - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
an understanding of hill names will enhance anyone's day in the hills.

If you had just made that entirely valid point to begin with rather than all the aggressive posturing, you might have actually persuaded people of your point rather than simply antagonising them.
jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)

> No, I mean the Internet Mountain Leader. You must be close now ;-)

OI! You can't go from defending a near dead language to using TLA's like some teenager! What if it becomes common parlance (pronounced an immell)? You will then have to tell everyone to stop using it!
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to MG:

I would have thought that to be common knowledge for any hill goer and if not they aren't much of a hillgoer. Does common sense need to be explained these days?
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Nae bother. I am happy to say that I have been rejected by the British Braying Association as I don't get outraged enough at being told something which is common sense to most.
Milesy - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> I would have thought that to be common knowledge for any hill goer and if not they aren't much of a hillgoer. Does common sense need to be explained these days?

You would have thought wrongly then. I speak Scottish English and I anglicise things as do many others.

How do you say Aberdeen? I would not be incorrect in using Inver-deen from a language point of view.

Let's use a concrete example of variations in pronounciation between languages:

How would you say Ibiza?

Ey-ve-sa (Catalan)
Eye-bae-tha (Spain)
Eye-bee-tha (Britain)
Eye-bee-za (America)

Same place.

Why can sneachda not be anglicised be English speakers?
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:

That is totally different. As far as I am aware you don't work in a field that involves continual interaction with place-names. Also, I an referring to an understanding. Pronunciation after.
jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
>
> Why can sneachda not be anglicised be English speakers?

Limmy's show found the same problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn9Wcy88Np4
jonnie3430 - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> Nae bother. I am happy to say that I have been rejected by the British Braying Association as I don't get outraged enough at being told something which is common sense to most.

I'm surprised at this; you seem to get pretty outraged by the notion that Scottish independence is a bad idea, yet it is common sense to most.
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

I amn't actually outraged, more amused. Much of this is common sense but here we find ourselves talking about Ibiza. Hmm.
Milesy - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Please explain to me what and where exactly common sense comes into this. I am simply stating the fact that language is fluid. I understand your urge to fight for Gaelic, but I do not have that same urge.

For the records I do actually pronounce Sgurr a Mhaim correctly, firstly because Mhaim is a common word, secondly because it is easy for me to pronounce, and lastly people will not think I am pretentious for doing so. The same is not true for ol corrie snekta.
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:

If I have to explain common sense they we are some way from each other on this.

The common sense I refer to is that it would seem reasonable to me that a mountain leader should have some knowledge of the meanings of hill names and features so that they could enhance the experience of their clients.

I think this would be considered reasonable if you went to an alpine town and spoke to a guide or pretty much anywhere other than here. You are in the weird position of arguing that it isn't important to know what names mean.
Kid Spatula - on 08 Nov 2012

Have you thought about how tedious this conversation actually is? It's very tedious by the way.
Milesy - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

That is to you. It does not seem reasonable to me. We have two completely polar opinions on this. I hope to do my SML next year, and I shall not be learning indepth ancient Gaelic names with perfect Gaelic pronounciation, sorry fella.

I am fairly sure Chamonix isnt full of Latin that no one speaks.

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Milesy - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Kid Spatula:
>
> Have you thought about how tedious this conversation actually is? It's very tedious by the way.

Yes but it is fun. The fella likes to completely sidestep any questions which throw his blinkered view point into disarray :)
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:

Fair enough. That means that any individual or group you lead will get less out of a day than they would that led by someone with the same skills and experience but with additional, holistic knowledge. The bonus is worth it.
Andy Moles - on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> You are in the weird position of arguing that it isn't important to know what names mean.

You still haven't explained why it is so important.

I happen to know my name means 'manly', or something like that, but I don't think the knowledge has any effect on my life or sense of myself. What is the value of that knowledge?

I don't need to know what the name of a place means either, because far more important are the meanings I attach to it personally. Belfast, or Beal Feirste, might mean 'mouth of the sandbanks', but that's just a description of the city's location, which is self-evident. If I'd lived there all my life without knowing that fact, would my experiences of the places been any poorer?

Andy Moles - on 08 Nov 2012
P.S. I do think names are interesting. Just not sure about 'important'.
Cuthbert on 08 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Moles:

So that you understand the mountain environment more fully. Open map, do I understand the names - no. If I understand more and have the skills to interpret meanings will I understand more about the hill - yes.
In reply to Saor Alba: Where I live almost every cliff seems to be called Hawk Cliff, Hawk's Cliff or Hawk Hill. I'm not unsympathetic to your point view, but perhaps the ancient Finns were just desperately unimaginative as I'm not sure how far it gets you forward here.
Milesy - on 08 Nov 2012
I propose in order to remove confusion and arguments we give Gaelic a helping hand out the door and start renaming everything on the maps to something we can all understand easier.

What can call Sneachda on the map? "The Bumblie Corrie", Lochain can be "The Grafter Corrie"
Jim Fraser - on 09 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
> [...]
>
> You know when someone is standing in the coire cas car park saying coire an trek or whatever and 99% of the car park is saying sneachda... that pedant just looks like a pretentious clown. Majority rules. Deal with it. You are fighting a losing battle. The sooner Gaelic dies out the better.


"What do you do
When Democracy's all through
What do you do
When minority means you?"

Cuthbert on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Jim Fraser:

http://www.cnag.org/en/mountain-names

I have now put a trial page on our website along with an easy file for Coire an t-Sneachda. Please use the form if you want support with any mountain feature name.
Cameron94 on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: I've never heard it like that before. Cheers
Dave Kerr - on 12 Nov 2012
Murko Fuzz - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:

Great resource, ta.

I had 7 years of gaelic at primary and 35 years later there's none left!
Gael Force - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: Cheers ,very useful, especially as my Gaelic has all but gone.
Alex Slipchuk on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Saor Alba: where's the file
Cuthbert on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Kerr:

Big old Somhairle going hard on the deck there. Thanks. PS I owe you a pint so remind me!
Cuthbert on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to The Big Man:

Right hand side of the page.
Jim Fraser - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Dave Kerr:
> (In reply to Cameron94)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IX6KKw39so
>
> From 27 seconds in.


"LANGUAGE
Long before the era of the nature reserve and the SSSI, the Ordnance Survey began two centuries of conservation work of a different kind but of considerable greatness. As a result, the language of the maps of this area is almost entirely Gaelic. (The area also has as great a proportion of Gaelic speakers as can be found in any part of the Scottish mainland.) Many of the names of mountain features in the area bring as much descriptive character to the map as the contour lines or features of water or rock. An elementary study of the Gaelic names of the features of the land and their pronunciation is likely to bring a special richness to your experience of the area."

http://www.kintailmrt.org.uk/area.htm
Toby S - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
> [...]
>
> The sooner Gaelic dies out the better.

The sooner attitudes like yours die out, the better.

Leis gach deagh dhurachd,

Toby
Milesy - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Toby S:

Away and raffle yourself.
ruaidh - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Cameron94:

in connemara, where my mums from, they would say 'qwirra ne shneackteh'. in munster it would be more like 'qwurra nuh schackta' with the last consonant harsh like you're hawking up phleghm.
Jim Fraser - on 16 Nov 2012
In reply to Milesy:
> (In reply to Jim Fraser)
> ...
> Away and raffle yourself.
>
> (In reply to Toby S)
>
> Away and raffle yourself.


WARNING! WARNING!
Vocabulary deficiency.


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