/ Good news about Dunira sport crag

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Andy Nisbet - on 12 Nov 2012
For good news about Dunira sport crag (near Comrie), where Susan Jensen and I spent the weekend, see http://www.facebook.com/#!/SMCGuidebooks?fref=ts
If you approve, would you "like" the Guidebooks page. The SMC sport guide is due out in April.
Fiend - on 12 Nov 2012

"Sport Climbs Guide author Andy Nisbet and the guidebook production assistant have been busy this weekend, rebolting Dunira (Perthshire, near Comrie). It is now an eclectic mix of the original expansion bolts and the new glue-ins. The view from the crag is as amazing as ever."

Which is good news and I'll be tempted to go now.

JLS on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

>"The SMC sport guide is due out in April."

Unfortunately even everyone that was instrested have long since died due to prelonged holding of breath. :)
Fraser on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to JLS:

...but the photography looks great! ;)
IainAM on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to Andy Nisbet)
>
> >"The SMC sport guide is due out in April."
>
> Unfortunately even everyone that was instrested have long since died due to prelonged holding of breath. :)

I 'think' it was at the launch of the original Stone Country bouldering guide, (or maybe Chains?) that the sport guide was announced for later that year. Wasn't that 2004/5 :-)

Nice one for the rebolting and the guide.
Andy Nisbet - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to JLS:

But the fact that I'm saying April rather than "soon" is more definite.
Marky B - on 12 Nov 2012
Looks like from the cover shot of 7a max facebook page that Dunira is covered by the guide too.
http://www.facebook.com/7aMaxScottishSportClimbingGuide?fref=ts

And I hear its due out sooner.
Andy Nisbet - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Marky B:

And did they hope that Dunira was going to be rebolted, is it in unbolted, or did they just get lucky?
robmack - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Marky B: fantastic, I'll be keen to have a look at this when it's done
JLS on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Yes but it is noted that you have cunning avoided mentioning in which year.

April 2021?
catt on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Marky B:

7a max... A nice idea but unfortunately wont be of much use to dedicated sport climbers. I'll continue holding my breath...
Dr Toph on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to catt:
> (In reply to Marky B)
>
> 7a max... A nice idea but unfortunately wont be of much use to dedicated sport climbers. I'll continue holding my breath...

That may be, but I would like to point out that although it's a selected guide focussing on crags with a good grade spread, all the routes of whatever grade are included on the topos, with routes up to 7a+ getting detailed descriptions
Robert Durran - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Dr Toph:
> (In reply to catt)
> [...]
>
> That may be, but I would like to point out that although it's a selected guide focussing on crags with a good grade spread, all the routes of whatever grade are included on the topos, with routes up to 7a+ getting detailed descriptions.

Why have you left out descriptions of the harder routes? To save space and bulk? To make people buy volume 2?

I'm afraid I won't be buying it until I know what the score is!

tony on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Dr Toph:
> (In reply to catt)
> [...]
>
> That may be, but I would like to point out that although it's a selected guide focussing on crags with a good grade spread, all the routes of whatever grade are included on the topos, with routes up to 7a+ getting detailed descriptions

And it does have the added bonus of actually being published, unlike the SMC guide which has been on the cards for more years than I care to think about without ever appearing. I think I first submitted a photo for it about 8 years ago.
Fiend - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Robert Durran:

The score is that it's a guide to Scottish sport climbing that covers almost all the crags and details all the routes up to F7a+, and it's due out in mid-November.
Andy Nisbet - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to tony:
> unlike the SMC guide which has been on the cards for more years than I care to think about without ever appearing. I think I first submitted a photo for it about 8 years ago.

I can only apologise, that it wasn't my fault, and that it is happening; April 2013 is the expected date. All the topos are drawn (around 120), the text typeset, action pictures chosen (around 70 but we don't know the total yet until the layout is finished), and since it was written by 16 of the most active sport climbers in Scotland, then it will be accurate.
Jamie B - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to tony:

The development of the sport guide has accelerated considerably since Andy came aboard, and I can testify to the amount of work he has put into it. I'm confident that it will be a high quality affair, and worth waiting for the spring for - can't see me doing much bolt-clipping between now and then anyway.
Jamie B - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to catt:

> 7a max... A nice idea but unfortunately wont be of much use to dedicated sport climbers.

But might find a market amongst abject punters? I gather there are quite a few of us...
Robert Durran - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Fiend:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> The score is that it's a guide to Scottish sport climbing that covers almost all the crags and details all the routes up to F7a+, and it's due out in mid-November.

Yes, I know. And if that is all I know, I won't be buying it!

Fiend - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Robert Durran:


I will.

The aesthetics on the sample pages shown on the 7amax website make my eyes bleed out torrents of bile in horror, but the imminent existence of a guide, particularly to a lot of the recently developed but frustratingly secretive sport crags, makes it an important purchase to me. Of course since none of the many hundreds (near a thousand?) of sport routes I've done have been over 7a, I'm obviously not a dedicated sport climber, but I still want the information....hell I'm pretty keen to get on more Scottish sport this weekend if it's dry...
ads.ukclimbing.com
sebrider - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Fiend and Rob: Fiend, I'm truly sorry your "eyes had bleed out torrents of bile in horror" on looking at our sample pages...sounds horrific...it is always impossible to please everyone! We would be happy to supply a black and white photocopy if that helps ;)
Rob, we left out descriptions of routes above 7a+ as these routes were not the scope of the book. They are indicated on the topos with grades however and mentioned if they are particularly good. This kept with the aims of the book and allowed us to more effectively layout the pages in portrait style for the routes we covered. There is not going to be a 2nd version with the harder routes. The guide has a slightly different style aimed at the average weekend climber and visitor. The Scottish sport scene has needed a guide for a long time, many routes have seen neglect and I for one got tired of using scraps of paper etc. We hope this guide will inspire sport climbers to visit Scotland's lesser known but equally nice crags. Seb
Fraser on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to sebrider:

I think both volumes look worthwhile and I reckon I'll be buying them, (they're aiming at diffrent markets I supsect). Well done to both teams for the undoubted effort put into both publications.
Jamie B - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Fraser:

> I think both volumes look worthwhile and I reckon I'll be buying them,

Might sound tight, but I think I'll wait until the spring (when I might actually be doing some sport-climbing) and be able to choose between the two.
Fraser on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

tbh, i'll probably not look at either a helluva lot, but I feel somwhow obliged to support the efforts of others in the climbing community who've put in a lot of effort to prepare the guides.
Fiend - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to sebrider:

> The Scottish sport scene has needed a guide for a long time, many routes have seen neglect and I for one got tired of using scraps of paper etc. We hope this guide will inspire sport climbers to visit Scotland's lesser known but equally nice crags.

Absolutely. Don't worry I'll stick with a normal version just wear sunglass ;) Is it out yet??
AG - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Nisbet: I went to Dunira when it was first bolted (along with the glen lednock crag). Good to hear it's re-bolted - as a punter it's nice to have an alternative bolted crag in my area.

I take it there's no plans to re-bolt the pile of choss in glen lednock! ;-)
robmack - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to AG: I don't see that happening any time soon!
Sonya Mc on 14 Nov 2012
To those with negative comments regarding the SMC guidebook, yes it has been a long time coming. However,

Andy wasn't on board with the guide until more recently and he never likes to blow his own trumpet, but since taking over, he has rallied around all the original contributors, visited sport crags to make sure all topos were correct (I know this because I was dragged on soggy days around Benny Beg, Rob's Reed and Balmashanner) and he's put in a lot of effort visiting other crags with other folk. He's put in a lot of damn hard work to get this guide up and going (with initial hesitation from some of the original contributors).

Now that Andy has taken it over and says it will be ready and out then I have no doubt that it will be ready and be out. I also reckon it will be far more definitive than this other guide and like someone mentions above, routes only up to 7a won't be much use for a dedicated sport climber.
robmack - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Sonya Mc: I don't think any negative comments were directed at Andy. I don't think it's fair to write off this other guide so quickly though, it's someone else's hard work. How many dedicated sport climbers do you know who don't climb below 7a even if just for a warm up?
graeme gatherer - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Sonya Mc: Guidebooks are great! more the merrier. Often one is better than another for decription or topo photo.

Couple of thoughts-

Will be funny climbing at some of these places with other teams. So many of these crags have been off most folk's radars for a long time.

Will close-by trad crags suffer? probably some will and some wont. I should think these sports guides will become best sellers for the climbing wall youth
Sonya Mc on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to robmack: No you're right, it's not fair to write it off, especially if they've put in hard work to it. I just prefer to have definitive guides, even though I'd certainly only need the punters guide :D
Fiend - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Sonya Mc:

> routes only up to 7a won't be much use for a dedicated sport climber.

You people have rather perculiar definitions of what a dedicated sport climber is. I would have assumed it would be more about the dedication, i.e. the inspiration and passion for sport climbing, rather than about a grade.

I think it's great that the SMC are working on a full definitive sport guide, and that Andy (who may or may not be a dedicated sport climber!) took over and focused on getting the job done - however the 7aMax guide should be out first, and will be useful at a time of year when trad climbing is pretty arduous.

As awkward as it might be for the SMC, guidebook competition is likely to be a good thing - having witnessed the effect of Rockfax in the Peak District, encouraging the BMC to up their guidebook game to a world-class level (admittedly it is probably somewhat harder in the wet, disparate, and insular arena of Scottish climbing!)
Sonya Mc on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to graeme gatherer:

I should think these sports guides will become best sellers for the climbing wall youth


Hah! Yes, will probably become Rebekah's bible!
Sonya Mc on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Fiend: I meant more for those who specifically sport climb and nothing else and who need harder than 7a to be challenged (and yes, they will want to climb under 7a, but then the definitive guide will cover both)

But yes, I was wrong to criticize the other guide, I'm sure both will be good.
Fraser on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Sonya Mc:

> Hah! Yes, will probably become Rebekah's bible!

Is that something like Sophie's choice?

Robert Durran - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Fiend:
> The 7aMax guide should be out first, and will be useful at a time of year when trad climbing is pretty arduous.

I think I'll stick to odd bits of paper if I do any sport climbing in the next few months rather than buy an expensive partial guide when a comprehensive one is on the way. If 7aMax looked good (I am sure it does!) and 7bMin were in the pipeline, I might have bought both.
jacobfinn on 14 Nov 2012
It's about time that the dedicated UK sport climbers got over themselves and we started catering for those of us not so lucky to be blessed with talent, determination, strength, poise, grace, finger-tips made of steel and predilection for climbing bare-chested and making odd roaring noises when climbing.

There are amazingly "punters" out there who enjoy "bimbling" on crags, and have no intention of scaring themselves to death trying to "climb" over-hanging crags with no positive holds.

Without opening the can of worms that is UK-trad vs Euro sport routes, why not encourage sport climbing in the UK of all grades?
Robert Durran - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to jacobfinn:
>
> Without opening the can of worms that is UK-trad vs Euro sport routes, why not encourage sport climbing in the UK of all grades?

Absolutely. So produce a guide covering all grades - Oh yes, that is what the SMC is already doing!

jacobfinn on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to jacobfinn)
> [...]
>
> Absolutely.

Does that mean I can open the can of worms ;-)

Robert Durran - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to jacobfinn:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Does that mean I can open the can of worms ;-)

Fell free. Nothing to do with me.

Andy Nisbet - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to AG:

> I take it there's no plans to re-bolt the pile of choss in glen lednock! ;-)

Yes there are plans, but not mine. It has been agreed that the bolts won't be removed in the future. It was going to happen in the autumn but didn't. Hopefully next year.

robmack - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Nisbet: did anyone get to the bottom of why Dunira was chopped?
Andy Nisbet - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to robmack:
> (In reply to Andy Nisbet) did anyone get to the bottom of why Dunira was chopped?

No. The estate are happy with climbers (but not cars) so not them. Whoever it was seems to have been a climber, but not one skilled at ropework because it was the easy bolts which were chopped as well as ones near the bottom. We hope that sport climbing has become more accepted.

robmack - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Nisbet: fingers crossed, thanks for re equipping it, I'll hopefully get up in the spring.
Stuart S - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

I could be mis-remembering my crags, but I'm pretty sure that the bolts at Dunira were chopped by a relatively well-known Scottish climber because he had done a couple of trad routes on the crag years beforehand but hadn't recorded them until after the sport routes were added, in effect retro-bolting his routes. There was a lengthy discussion on the now defunct Scottishclimbs website at the time.
robmack - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Stuart S: no, that was glen Lednock
Andy Nisbet - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Stuart S:

That was Lower Lednock, and he's agreed not to chop them again when they are replaced. I don't think Dunira was him as it was a much less professional job.
Wee Davie - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Andy Nisbet:

Well done for the guide work and the re- bolting. Looking forward to the guide next year. Hope the random chopping incidents are a thing of the past.
Fiend - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Wee Davie:

Talking of random chopping incidents, did anyone ever find out why the bolts at Upper "sport and trad living side by side and the flagship crag of not being the thin end of the wedge" Cave Crag get chopped a few years back??
Wee Davie - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Fiend:

I didn't ever hear of anyone 'owning up' to it. Pretty destructive and pointless. Sounds like it's been re-bolted to a better standard though.
Fiend - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Wee Davie:

Yeah, it's a strange one, possibly the most off-target act of anti-bolting around.
IainAM on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Fiend:
> (In reply to Wee Davie)
>
> Talking of random chopping incidents, did anyone ever find out why the bolts at Upper "sport and trad living side by side and the flagship crag of not being the thin end of the wedge" Cave Crag get chopped a few years back??

There was a heated debate on scottishclimbs about bolting an existing bold trad crag somewhere near Aviemore. The locals were arguing that it hardly got visited otherwise and had already spoken to the FA's who had given permission for retro-bolting. There was also the usual strong vocal contingent of "if you can't climb it as is don't bolt it". That was when I pointed out that it was an elitist argument because if it was applied evenly then upper cave/tunnel wall shouldn't have been bolted and everyone was happy with those. The upper cave bolts were smashed within a week or so, whether they were really linked I don't know.
Wee Davie - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to IainAM:

As far as I was aware, one of the (trad) FA's of Farletter crag was very strongly against the proposed bolting at that time.
The Cave Crag thing looked like an act of vandalism to me. I think the vast majority of climbers have no problem with sport co-existing with trad at low lying crags.
IainAM on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Wee Davie:
> (In reply to IainAM)
>
> As far as I was aware, one of the (trad) FA's of Farletter crag was very strongly against the proposed bolting at that time.

Ah, I didn't know that.

> I think the vast majority of climbers have no problem with sport co-existing with trad at low lying crags.

Indeed they are, it was just strange timing.
Andy Nisbet - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to Wee Davie:

There was no ill feeling at Farletter because all parties were consulted. Opinions varied but that's fair enough. I still hope to bolt it, but not without agreement.
Sonya Mc on 13 Dec 2012
Just bumping this thread. I know I said I was gonna wait for the definitive guide to come out in April but I saw the 3+ to 7a guide the other day and couldn't resist buying. A great buy, very nice guide indeed!

Well done guys.
sebrider - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Sonya Mc: Your comments are much appreciated - it's nice to hear after the work that's gone into it. Best wishes, Seb

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