/ night nav

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Killala - on 12 Nov 2012
Has any one got ant tips on relocating in the dark and not getting lost as i have my ml assessment soon
rockjedi12345 - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

carry an i phone?
Run_Ross_Run - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

How is your pacing/timing? If its up to scratch then you shouldn't have too many problems as you'll know roughly where you are.

Got an altimeter?
rockjedi12345 - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

thumbing (keep your thumb on the map so you can locate your position quickly and easily. Everytime you check your location move your thumb, it makes it very quick to locate your position on a map.

hope this helps
JayPee630 - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

The very fact you're asking this suggests you're not at the standard required for the ML.
ablackett - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: Keep a pretty good idea of where you are. Get a bit lost. Wander in a known direction until you find a feature that you recognise from the map.

Don't just stand still hoping to figure it out. Keep moving, but be sure which way you are moving and hopefully head towards a feature you can't miss.

This is based on Orienteering nav, not night nav, perhaps standing still for a while and thinking is better at night, but never works when orienteering.
Orgsm on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

Think about which obstacles / terrain might cause significant risk of injury when travelling at night. (That wouldn't during day). Plan navigation taking additional factors into account to allow safe relocation.. So normal nav techniques but take into account additional risk factors of travelling at night.
Orgsm on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

Also some features that are obvious during the day may get missed at night. So look for features on map that will also be obvious in the dark, use these as steps in your relocation.
JohnnyW - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to JayPee630:
> (In reply to Killala)
>
> The very fact you're asking this suggests you're not at the standard required for the ML.

Agreed
JohnnyW - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to JohnnyW:
> (In reply to JayPee630)
> [...]
>
> Agreed

...so get out there and practice. Then practice some more.
Trangia - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

For pacing carry beads on a string, or better, small pebbles in your pockets, and transfer one to another pocket every 100m.
andi turner - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

Depends how far out you think you are? If you've been pacing to a particular feature, and for whatever reason you've arrived there and the feature isn't where it should be (maybe your pacing was out a little from a stumble or diversion) then you can start a spiral search (e.g. 5 paces North, 5 paces East, 10 paces South, 10 paces West, 15 paces North, 15 paces East and so on) in the hope that you quickly come across it without losing completely where you started from.

Relocating is par for the course, getting lost isn't excusable really. Best of luck and practise lots!
Stuart (aka brt) - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

As to not getting lost: discipline and fall back on your 5 D's.

You'll know a start point (camp usually) so keep a tab on direction, distance, direction and duration. Description kind of goes out of the window though aspect should be apparent.

It's not a speed test but you'll be expected to keep things moving.

As to relocating: don't get lost in the first place! Not trying to be trite.

Good luck.
Wainers44 - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: Good tips on here and dont want to worry you, but the nav should be the easy bit...its retaining the high standard of group management while still doing the nav thats the hard bit....

Just take your time!
Kelcat - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: I always see this advice about pacing, and its simply not enough. Make sure you've got a lot more skills in your bag. I've seen assessments specifically set to make pacing a redundant / impossible task, because the assessors want to see some more realistic skills than 'point & walk'. Put together some strategies using ground features that you can find and work with them. Break your leg down, within reason it doesn't need to be a straight line, it does need to be accurate. As already said, if you use it correctly an altimeter can be a great additional check.
IainRUK - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: concentrate.. don't rush..

They chat to you on purpose.. to distract you... :-) chat away but pick out obvious features... memory is key.

Then just go back to basics.. why am I here? what 3 pieces of evidence confirm that? never just the one..
IainRUK - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Kelcat: Altimters are huge...
IainRUK - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to JayPee630: harsh but true.. get out in the dark.. get lost relocate.. find features.. if you've done your ML training you'll know the standard..

I did my ML training (summer) in winter.. snow on the ground.. full moon.. + local terrain.. it was a piece of piss.. but I at least knew the sort of features precision required.. then went and did that...
Sierra Nevada Guides - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:
Lots of experience and practice before assessment are needed. If you are "winging it" then you can't expect to pass. If in doubt get some more training. "Peak Navigation Courses" do specific night nav training.
Pritchard - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

I would echo what others have said, practice lots. Also read books on navigation, they don't teach you everything there is to know on your ML training about navigation. Where are you based? Getting out with other like minded individuals is good. Night nav practice in rubbish weather conditions on your own can be a bit demoralising. I would also be careful about Altmeters, the provider I did my assessment with banned their use, so I'd suggest getting good without one.

Craig
Dan_S - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to JayPee630:
> (In reply to Killala)
>
> The very fact you're asking this suggests you're not at the standard required for the ML.

So perhaps rather than posting an exceptionally helpful response, you could maybe provide hints and tips from your bountiful knowledge to help the OP get up to standard?

Nah, you'd rather come across as a tiny bit patronising.... Good job!

Sadly my night nav isn't up to ML standard, which is why I can't offer any tips, and came to this thread looking for some.
Mark Kemball - on 12 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: I've sent you a detailed email - hope it's useful.
richprideaux - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

Hopefully there is something useful to you here:

http://www.originaloutdoors.co.uk/top_ten_tips_night_navigation
Simon Caldwell - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

Try a night orienteering event - plenty around at the moment.
http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=80

Depending on where you're based they may or may not be on "mountain" terrain (where I live they're mostly in forests) but even the forest ones will give you practice in some of the techniques. Ideally try one in the hills somewhere.
cmgcmg - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:
List of techniques, google them.
Aiming off.
Contouring.
Pacing
Timing
Basic search techniques, quartering, spirals etc.
Knowing what throws off your bearings, side slopes etc
Don't shoot from the hip when walking on a bearing(ie don't only look at compass for direction, go point to point picking specific features and wlk to them, level out you map and let your compass settle before you reach the point.
Go out with a GPS in your bag to track what you do. Only look at it when you get home. Make notes of the techniques you use on various legs and how successful they were.

Three tools of successful navigation. Watch, Compass and map. + torch at night.
Add practice and experience and you are sorted.
Practice on you own.
Navigation is not something you can do while having a conversation
Irk the Purist - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

Practice
Al Evans on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Eric the Red: When I did my ML, the instructor deliberately gave us a target that was wrong on the OS map, it was a sheepfold that was marked on the map as a small pond, when we got there we had to be absolutely certain we were in the right place or we would have been failed, it was this that made my navigation so much better, having the confidence in it. Did you know that the , I can't remember the date but the probably the first commercial 1;20000 map of the Peak District had the position of Kinder Downfall out by 200mts and had to be withdrawn.
Wonko The Sane - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

This really appeals. I've done orienteering in my yoof, but night nav sounds quite exacting.

Simon Caldwell - on 13 Nov 2012
Crofty - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: Most obvious stuff has already been mentioned, but when I did my ML exam we had terrible weather (british summer) this year.
I had to rely on aspect of slope 3 times as there was no visibility to talk of, especially on our night nav which was clagged out as well.

Don't forget to try and break the leg down into small sections, so you are constantly sure of where you are.
Crofty
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Crofty - on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Crofty: also be aware you will be with others on their leg and they may be slower/faster than you, it blew my practiced timing out of the water and I quickly realised I had to switch back to pacing, which actually worked out quite well, esp if you do as above and break the leg down as much as poss.
rockchomper on 13 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:
might seem really obvious, go out at night on really bumpy ground (doesn't have to be high and not a straightforward up or down) and go out in bad weather....i really struggled at first to read in the rain and mist, let alone navigate, up and down, up and down, with the head torch bobbing its light only just through naff mist, it was very disorientating and confused my eyesight as well as my nav....
ruttingstag on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: climb out from under that bridge.
earlsdonwhu - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: Get a big kick ass headtorch....... a piddly one with great battery life may have other benefits but less use on ML assessment.
peas65 - on 14 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala:

Practice is key, Before my assessment i spent most nights for 2 weeks out pacing and naving round the fells. Giving myself points to head to and so on.

Take your time (but not too much), decide on a strategy breaking the leg down into a couple of sections, get you pacing spot on, know your timings, trust your compass, ignore if the others keeping stopping to check. Use natural features as handrails.

You want to avoid having to relocate especially at night. If you are in an area with lots of features this will be easier than moorland.
xplorer on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to ruttingstag:

Climb out of that hole!

You troll searchers do my head in. Everyones a troll in your eyes.

You must be very lonely
ruttingstag on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to xplorer: Sorry, but i am afraid you are wrong. I am not lonely and do not search for trolls and do not think everyone is trolling.
The person who posted this has no profile and has not replied to anybodys advice.

Anybody who is due for an ML assessment will in most cases have done the ML training and will have had logged their quality mountain day experiences. Why would they be asking "how do i avoid getting lost" If they are due for an assessment they should know all the nav tools and have the experience. If they are weak in a particular area then they will know where that area is and realise that it is just a case of practice in that area. That is why I formed my opinion.

IainRUK - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to ruttingstag: I'm not so sure..

I did my ML training with some hugely inexperienced people.. it was an intensive course from a college I got in on the cheap. Some of them only had a few days on the hills in total, being so inexperienced I doubt they took much from the training..
JohnnyW - on 15 Nov 2012
In reply to ruttingstag:

Gotta admit I agree with Mr.Stag
shaun stephens - on 17 Nov 2012
In reply to rockjedi12345: wtf ?
rich pyne - on 26 Nov 2012
In reply to Killala: Go back to your last known point Mark, it doesn't matter if you get it wrong, but it matters that you put it right. Keep the legs short, so if you do need to go back, then it is a few hundred metres to back track rather than a few K's. Practice like all the others have mentioned, that's what makes for good Nav, you know you have it sussed when you are surprised it's gone wrong.

Rich

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