/ lower off thefts

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alexkitts - on 28 Nov 2012
some of the lower offs from waterfall crag in Dyserth, seem to have been stolen, although i'm not sure if this is the case or if they not supposed to be there, anyone know?
rockcat - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:All the routes at Dyserth Waterfall crag had full lower-offs. It seems the A55 crags lower-off thefts are ongoing. Thanks for publicising it.

> some of the lower offs from waterfall crag in Dyserth, seem to have been stolen, although i'm not sure if this is the case or if they not supposed to be there, anyone know?

Rampikino - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

This is getting silly now.

Why on earth would climbers (and I'm assuming climbers given accessibility to Lower Offs) feel the need to steal lower offs and what are they gaining other than a bit of free metal work?

If it's someone else, is there really a gain in scrap metal for small bits of stainless steel?

I truly don't get this.
Jimbo C - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to alexkitts)
> is there really a gain in scrap metal for small bits of stainless steel?
>

Some people must think so. It's the same with roofing lead or the copper from electric cables. If these people put the same amount of effort into earning money as they put into stealing it then the country would be in far better shape.

Luke Owens - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

Thanks for highlighting this.

This is getting ridiculous now! I can't understand the motive for stealing all these lower-off's, it's extremely disrespectful!

I just wish someone would catch them in the act!
Offwidth - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Rampikino: Someone trying to piss off the equipers?
Duncan Bourne - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Rampikino:

Back in the 90's I could have named any number of top climbers who would have done it but since the bolting debate has died down it could just be thieves
Jon Ratcliffe - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Jimbo C: Absolute nonsense. Taking a tonne of lead off a roof is a world away from someone nicking bolt hangars and lower offs off crags, do you really think this is being done to make money from scrap?! If this was the case the whole crag would be stripped for a start and even then I very much doubt it would be worth it.
I also think that the shape of this country has got more to do with the actions of investment bankers than people nicking stuff. In fact such thefts tend to go up when the economy goes into decline, just like most crimes of this nature do. It's a symptom of the shape of this country as opposed to a cause. Not that it does anyone any favours of course.
rockcat - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Jimbo C: If it was for scrap then they would be stripping entire routes and even then it would hardly be worth the trouble. The thefts are sporadic and at various crags.
Jimbo C - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to rockcat:

Who knows why they've been taken, but if it was for scrap then it certainly wasn't worth the effort.
GrahamD - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

Are you reall blaming investment bankers for the theft of lower offs ?
Jon Ratcliffe - on 29 Nov 2012
In reply to GrahamD: In reply to GrahamD: I think you've got the gist of my post wrong! Probably due to my lazy literature skills mind. I was responding to a Jimbo's Daily Mailesque post. My last paragraph refers to thefts of lead etc for scrap, not lower offs and bolt hangars!
rockcat - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jimbo C: Perhaps the thieves are getting a buzz out of creating a fuss on UKC?
krikoman - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to rockcat:
> (In reply to Jimbo C) Perhaps the thieves are getting a buzz out of creating a fuss on UKC?

lower off trolls
Paul at work - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

It could be the 'White Knight' of Castle Inn Quarry fame again, as he is back in that area.....

But some how I doubt it.
jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

Have you considered the case that a person feels that the routes should not be bolted? Someone felt they should, so put bolts in. Why can't someone else think that the routes should not be bolted and remove them?
remus - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: If that was the case surely theyd remove the bolts, not the lower offs.
ian Ll-J - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to alexkitts)
>
> Have you considered the case that a person feels that the routes should not be bolted? Someone felt they should, so put bolts in. Why can't someone else think that the routes should not be bolted and remove them?

If that was the case surely all the bolts would be chopped. In my opinion this is something else...perhaps a novice climber, or possibly someone selling them on (though not for scrap as mentioned above)...who knows?
gethin_allen on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:
perhaps we should all chip in for a unemployed climber in north wales (there must be a few of those around) to stake out the crags and catch whoever it is in the act.
rockcat - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: If that is the case then they are completely unjustified and working against the interests of the wider climbing community. As far as I am aware there have been no complaints about bolting crags like Waterfall Crag and Ty Newydd. Indeed without bolts they would remain undeveloped thus depriving the climbing community of some great routes at 2 excellent new crags. Can it possibly be right that a very few people should be working against the interests of the vast majority because they don't agree?


> (In reply to alexkitts)
>
> Have you considered the case that a person feels that the routes should not be bolted? Someone felt they should, so put bolts in. Why can't someone else think that the routes should not be bolted and remove them?

jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to rockcat:

Can you let me know where the wider climbing community supports bolting? Where are your statistics that the vast majority approve of it. If that was the case, why do we have a trad ethic and little retro bolting?
alexkitts - on 30 Nov 2012
it does seem odd to randomly steal the lower offs if it's because of some personal vendetta of bolting routes. Surely they'd wipe out the whole crag rather than just one route!
Bruce Hooker - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to rockcat:

As said when was "the vast majority" consulted? Just as some have given themselves the right to drill and chip it seems that others have decided to do the opposite... Who can say one "right" is superior to another?

Stainless steel does have a higher scrap value than iron but not as much as copper and other non-ferrous metals so it is unlikely to be someone nicking the lower offs for this reason, much more likely as a protest of either bolting these routes or not topping out, if this is possible. It's easier to take off the lower-off than chop the bolts, and arguably less vandalistic.

It's happened elsewhere apparently so it's odd that no locals have an idea of who or what is behind it.
a lakeland climber on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

Is there any pattern to the removals? I.e. a specific first ascensionist? The lines were originally done without bolts?

It does seem rather odd and it's as if it's to make a particular point rather than strip the routes entirely.

ALC
a lakeland climber on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Paul at work:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
>
> It could be the 'White Knight' of Castle Inn Quarry fame again, as he is back in that area.....
>
> But some how I doubt it.

If that refers to who I think it does then he posts on here under his real name so ask him.

ALC
alexkitts - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
well i live very locally (in Dyserth itself) and have no idea who this, every time i'm down at this crag there's always a few others there and it seems a popular crag so maybe someones seen something suspicious but i don't anyone who has
Paul at work - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to a lakeland climber:

My post was only in jest! There is no way that the 'White Knight' will have done it!
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to gethin_allen: This isn't the 1980's..Climbers tend to work these days!
Hephaestus - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
> (In reply to gethin_allen) This isn't the 1980's..Climbers tend to work these days!

And the rest of us sit in offices posting on UKC...

I'd say some sort of direct action is required on this or the thefts will continue.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: Erm...statisics...brilliant..
At all the BMC Cymru meetings where not a single objection has been raised; the perfect forum for such objections. No objections raised on The North wales Limestone wiki. No Objections raised on UKC or UKB. No other known objections made public.

Incredible as it may sound climbers aren't all canvassed every time new routes are bolted.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Hephaestus: What do you suggest?
Bruce Hooker - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

> ncredible as it may sound climbers aren't all canvassed every time new routes are bolted.

Just like for whoever is de-bolting then :-)

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
MJ - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

Would I be right in assuming that they were taken off the easier routes?
jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
> (In reply to jonnie3430) No Objections raised on UKC

I missed the chance to object. Can you give me the link to the thread so I can please.
gethin_allen on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
> (In reply to gethin_allen) This isn't the 1980's..Climbers tend to work these days!

And of-course in this time of wealth and plenty for all there is 100% employment.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to gethin_allen: Well people do what they can to earn money even if that's having multiple jobs. I don't know of any climbers locally who do not have some employment.
remus - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: You can start your own thread.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: That's the point, there is no thread. The crag has been on the data base for a while now, the routes have been bolted for at nearly two years now. Are familiar with this crag then? When was the last time you climbed on N.Wales limestone? This like most issues like it is a local one for climbers from the area or those from outside the area that climb there. Please feel free to come along to the next BMC Cymru meeting where you can raise your objection in person along with your reasons for doing so or start your own thread on here.
metal arms on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

> That's the point, there is no thread. The crag has been on the data base for a while now, the routes have been bolted for at nearly two years now. Are familiar with this crag then? When was the last time you climbed on N.Wales limestone? This like most issues like it is a local one for climbers from the area or those from outside the area that climb there. Please feel free to come along to the next BMC Cymru meeting where you can raise your objection in person along with your reasons for doing so or start your own thread on here.

Good points Jon. It's not worth it though. It's the same old people with the same old repetitive boring arguments. They don't want to climb there/aren't interested in the access/aren't interested in the issues, they just want a platform to bang the 'bolts are bad' drum from. Thanks for trying though.

It is a strange one though. Who needs lower-offs so bad that they'd steal them? Maybe just trying to piss climbers off with a misguided sense of ethics?
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to metal arms: Cheers for that. I thought I would give him the benefit of the doubt but I know you're right. The negativity and point scoring on this forum continues to astound me but a part of me wants to enlighten and educate, a part of me which will soon sack that off and allow them to wallow in there own bullshit.
jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to metal arms:
> (In reply to Jon Ratcliffe)
>
> [...]
>
> They don't want to climb there/aren't interested in the access/aren't interested in the issues, they just want a platform to bang the 'bolts are bad' drum from.

On the contrary, I do want to climb there, am interested in the access and issues. I also want others in the future to be able to enjoy climbing like we have it. Bolts on routes and the habit of redpointing cause far greater wear to climbing routes. Once worn, these routes will have far less interest for future generations. Do you know what the future holds? I don't but we are quite good at developing gear, so who is to say that the needs for bolts are not redundant in twenty, fifty or a hundred years time, when your legacy is a rusty bolt and a polished route.
metal arms on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to metal arms)
> [...]On the contrary, I do want to climb there, am interested in the access and issues. I also want others in the future to be able to enjoy climbing like we have it. Bolts on routes and the habit of redpointing cause far greater wear to climbing routes. Once worn, these routes will have far less interest for future generations. Do you know what the future holds? I don't but we are quite good at developing gear, so who is to say that the needs for bolts are not redundant in twenty, fifty or a hundred years time, when your legacy is a rusty bolt and a polished route.

We don't NEED bolts now. There is a large section of the climbing population that enjoy bolt-clipping. I enjoy climbing trad and sport, and even enjoy the weird hybrid stuff on the slate and The Great Orme.

Dyserth is a bolted crag, if you feel it shouldn't be, get some local feeling, and if you still think it shouldn't be, take action. This thread is about lower-offs being stolen, not whether or not sport climbing is sustainable.

As an aside, I've never climbed anywhere with more polish than Stoney (mainly trad). Bolts don't cause polish, climbers do. Easy access routes get more traffic by their nature. If you don't want routes to get polished, you need to stop climbers climbing.

There has been rusting metalwear in climbs since before sport climbing took off. It is the nature of the beast (climbing) unfortunately. Is a rusting stuck wire better than a rusting bolt? Genuinely interested if you think it is. Surely only top-roping would stop this issue, but would then increase polish. In my view, bolted crags and trad crags can co-exist and neither is purer or more ethically sound than the other. They're different sides of the same coin (and presumably bouldering is the edge!).

Also why does redpointing cause 'far greater wear'? Surely working out the perfect sequence and only using the appropriate holds causes less wear than scuffling about on your onsight go and using everything, going up and down... Unless you onsight like Ondra and never mess the sequence up (I am definitely not in this category).
jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to metal arms:

> Bolts don't cause polish, climbers do. Easy access routes get more traffic by their nature. If you don't want routes to get polished, you need to stop climbers climbing.

But bolting routes encourages more climbers onto them, therefore bolting causes more polish.

> There has been rusting metalwear in climbs since before sport climbing took off. It is the nature of the beast (climbing) unfortunately. Is a rusting stuck wire better than a rusting bolt?

No, which is why I have a large collection of stuck wires, rusty pegs and useless tat. It's in the countryside code: "Protect the natural environment. Leave no trace of your visit and take your litter home." Do you somehow think this ethos no longer applies?

> Also why does redpointing cause 'far greater wear'? Surely working out the perfect sequence and only using the appropriate holds causes less wear than scuffling about on your onsight go and using everything, going up and down.

Redpointing is another name for toprope practise. Typically people try to redpoint about 2 or three grades harder than they can onsight, therefore they have to practise the moves again and again and again, so the rock gets far more wear than from an onsight. I'd be very surprised if your "working out of the perfect sequence," didn't involve trying everything again and again and again until you could do it that you claim is unique to the onsight attempt.
Schnell on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: Obvious (and only) solution to polish: everyone is only allowed one go ever on any route, trad or sport. Enforced by micro-chipping climbers perhaps...
jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Schnell:
> (In reply to jonnie3430) Obvious (and only) solution to polish: everyone is only allowed one go ever on any route, trad or sport. Enforced by micro-chipping climbers perhaps...

WHAT HE SAYS!! Ground up, onsight ethic (is this not best practise already?)! I think the micro chipping is a bit OTT though.
metal arms on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Schnell:
> (In reply to jonnie3430) Obvious (and only) solution to polish: everyone is only allowed one go ever on any route, trad or sport. Enforced by micro-chipping climbers perhaps...

I can't condone any form of chipping...
ksjs - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: What about your lifestyle (car, food multiples, foreign travel, banking, clothing, diet etc)? No doubt all are totally sustainable and not threatening our tomorrow at all.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to jonnie3430: are you related to Ken Wilson?
Bruce Hooker - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

> Please feel free to come along to the next BMC Cymru meeting where you can raise your objection...

But here you assume that everybody agrees that the BMC is a representative body and so such meetings have a mandate to make this sort of decision. Arguments against these notions are, for example, what percentage of climbers belong to the BMC or recognise it as representing them? - probably a minute one, and why would a group of like minded enthusiasts have the right to take such decisions, which, put end to end, will probably completely change the nature of British climbing - if what has happened on most of the continent is anything to go by.

I'm not actually defending one side or another here, especially as I don't think I have any right to do so, but I don't think the issue is a black and white as it is often presented. Many just take it for granted that "the locals decide at BMC meetings, and that's it" is an attitude which is self evident. I don't see many arguments to justify such a convenient, simplifying decision making process.

The spate of thefts would seem to suggest that I'm not the only one, and that others are prepared to take matters further. Maybe it could be a case of "back to the drawing board"?
jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to ksjs:

Sorry what? I thought we were talking about climbing and that bolting a route gets more traffic on it and wears it out quicker. (But yes, I cycle where possible, try to eat local food, hate my bank... etc,)
jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

Sorry, I don't understand.
jonnie3430 - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
> (In reply to jonnie3430) Please feel free to come along to the next BMC Cymru meeting where you can raise your objection in person along with your reasons for doing so.

I'd love to, but don't live locally and am not a BMC member so would be happy to send in my opinion to be read at the meeting.



lewk_c on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

Soooo.... Back to the topic, does anybody know which routes are missing lower offs?
MJ - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

...and why would a group of like minded enthusiasts have the right to take such decisions, which, put end to end, will probably completely change the nature of British climbing

Bolting and subsequently Sports Routes have been present in the UK for about quarter of a century and I haven't seen any erosion of the nature of "Trad" climbing.


The spate of thefts would seem to suggest that I'm not the only one, and that others are prepared to take matters further. Maybe it could be a case of "back to the drawing board"?

The thefts aren't for ethical reasons.
Doghouse - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>

>
> The thefts aren't for ethical reasons.

Wow! are you confessing here? :-)
Bruce Hooker - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to MJ:

> The thefts aren't for ethical reasons.

How do you know? This is a serious question as it is not easy to see any other explanation, this is not the first case, is it?

> Bolting and subsequently Sports Routes have been present in the UK for about quarter of a century and I haven't seen any erosion of the nature of "Trad" climbing.

You may not have seen it, I agree, but does that prove it hasn't taken place? Do you think all the sport climbing is on crags that were totally unclimbed before? What would all the climbers who post here looking for bolted climbs have done before? Don't you think they would have climbed in the normal way, putting in their own protection as they went.. and taking it with them when they had finished?
ian Ll-J - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

Just checked e bay, spotted one seller selling 2nd hand maillons and krabs amongst a whole host of other items.....
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: The BMC Cymru meetings are for anyone. You don't have to be a member of the BMC. It's simply a forum to discuss and highlight such topics. If you knew anything about such matters or such meetings you would know that the bolting of such crags is most often determined by the bolters/ first ascentionists. Yes the locals tend to decide because it's a local issue. These things rarely have to get to such forums because the first ascentionists/bolters know the score, unlike it seems, you.

People can raise your objections in whatever forum you like, I am simply saying that no such objection has been raised publicly, apart from perhaps the anonymous removal of gear!!
You really do come across as such a pedantic and negative presence on these forums Bruce. Do you like poking sticks into the spokes of bikes too? How about looking for cracks in perfectly functioning walls? Do you ever have anything positive or genuinely constructive to add to such discussions? Isn't there enough going on in your area to keep you busy?
Jon Ratcliffe - on 30 Nov 2012
In reply to ian Ll-J: Back on topic Ian, good work, interesting find. I'll check out tomorrow too.
Bruce Hooker - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

> The BMC Cymru meetings are for anyone. You don't have to be a member of the BMC.

We all realise that but just try to understand that not all people go along with the principle behind it, the idea that any group of people can get together under the cover of a self proclaimed representative body and decide on issues that affect everybody.

As usual a calm debate seems impossible and invective slips in... You call me negative only because you assume I don't agree with you, that I question your own prejudices. There is nothing negative about defending the climbing environment from the sort of institutionalised vandalism we see on all low level French cliffs for example, nor trying to argue against its spread to the mountains.

To see what I mean take a look at the Aiguille Dibona in the Ecrins, lines of bolts drilled in the granite right next to beautiful natural cracks. Both sorts of climbs exist next to each other but the pressure is on, and that's high in the mountains. I'd say that the negative attitude is the one that favours this sort of tasteless trashing.... but I realise that I'm wasting my time even attempting to discuss the subject with you, your mind is so closed.

Here's a link to a recent UIAA report to show you that the debate isn't closed for many - the complete report is worth the read, especially the comments by quite a few distinctly not "negative" climbers at the end of it:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/trad-versus-sport-climbing-uiaa-looks-to-find-a-balance

PS. Maybe you should look up the word "pedantic" too, it doesn't mean what you seem to think it does here.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Jon Ratcliffe - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: Is your real name Ken Wilson?
Bruce Hooker - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:

Ken who?
ian Ll-J - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

What we really need is a SOLUTION for this ongoing problem, lower offs are being stolen from local limestone and slate routes....so what can we do to stop it?

Clearly an ideal solution would be to catch the culprit...unlikely in my opinion.

Replace all the lower offs with non stainless (not ideal I know) valueless old maillons / krabs....which wouldn't be worth stealing. Untidy and not ideal on one hand but could be a good temporary measure.

Replace / only use (more expensive)stainless ring hangers which have no use other than as loweroffs, hopefully these may not be of any interest or use to the thief. This would be a great option if it works, tidy loweroffs are great for us as climbers and easier on the eye / less visual impact on the crag than a load of tatty hanging krabs / maillons which are likely to be stolen anyway.

For new routes ask the question 'is a lower off really needed' or is it possible to set up a belay at the top?

If placing lower offs on new routes, take into consideration the position of the lower off clearly it needs to be ideal for the route and safe etc...but could it be positioned in a less 'nickable' position?

These are just a few ideas(please chip in with more)...what we need is a solution and not endless debate and argument!
rockcat - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to ian Ll-J: With regard to a solution, I've replaced about 8 sets of lower-offs (2 of them twice!)on various A55 crags due to the thefts and I'm sick of following these people around. I replace them either with glue-ins with integral rings or hangers / maillons / rings whose threads are liberally treated with Araldite. That deals with replacement lower-offs but there are far too many to do this to all of them. Other than the Araldite the equipment is provided by the N. Wales bolt fund. These people are stealing from the NWBF and those who have so kindly contributed. Also local activists are spending their time replacing the lower-offs when they could be spending their time far more productively replacing dodgy bolts or doing new routes.
davo - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Having climbed a bit at Ty Newydd I would like to offer my opinion.

I really don't see that having these routes bolted will encourage polish as you have stated. Climbers cause polish, these routes are very unlikely to see the kind of traffic that routes on the Idwal slabs or Cromlech do and as such are very unlikely to become polished. To be honest the argument against bolting because of polish is simply false and not borne out by reality. Polish is mostly down to type of rock and volume of traffic.

I see you think that redpointing is the same as top-rope practise. This baffles me and I think shows a lack of understanding of what happens, on your part.

Apart from all of that I wonder if you have ever actually been to the crags being discussed? Quite honestly they would be very poor trad crags but are a good addition to the sport climbing in the local area. No one I know in the area was upset when they got developed and as far as I know there was no retro-bolting of existing trad routes. To start using the "thin end of the wedge" argument for these crags is honestly a bit silly as anyone who has been there and climbed there will likely testify. This really isn't Dinas Cromlech we are talking about!

As has been pointed out there are area meetings and it is also possible to find out who did the bolting and email them to discuss it. I am sure they would be happy to discuss it and as far as I know they are just psyched local activists who want to develop cool routes for others to enjoy and do so at large personal expense.

We have lots of different styles of climbing in the UK and it is one of the cool things about the country. It really doesn't have to be a black and white one or the other type of affair as regards sport and trad; it is possible for both to co-exist quite happily. (Just look at upper pen-trwyn).

Cheers Dave
Ramblin dave - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Jon Ratcliffe)
>
> [...]
>
> We all realise that but just try to understand that not all people go along with the principle behind it, the idea that any group of people can get together under the cover of a self proclaimed representative body and decide on issues that affect everybody.
>
> As usual a calm debate seems impossible and invective slips in... You call me negative only because you assume I don't agree with you, that I question your own prejudices. There is nothing negative about defending the climbing environment from the sort of institutionalised vandalism we see on all low level French cliffs for example, nor trying to argue against its spread to the mountains.

So do you not believe in seeking consensus in any cases, or only when you don't agree with that consensus? If someone wanted to bolt Scafell or Cloggy then would local climbers there - who, from everything that I've seen, would more or less unanimously oppose such an act - have the right to "get together under the cover of a self proclaimed representative body and decide on issues that affect everybody"? Or would the only answer be a protracted battle of bolting and chopping?
Pekkie - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to ian Ll-J:
>>
> 'Just checked e bay, spotted one seller selling 2nd hand maillons and krabs amongst a whole host of other items.....'

Nice work, Sherlock! Any names? Could someone make an offer?

scrufff on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Pekkie:

There's a name, and the location is close-ish, but someone needs to identify the missing pieces first
Bruce Hooker - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:

I'm saying that the notion which is apparently quite widely accepted that a group of essentially locals can decide, under the aegis of the BMC or similar, whether a crag is to be bolted is not self evident... not to me anyway.

In your example bolting Cloggy would not be acceptable just because a meeting decided it was ok.
Jon Ratcliffe - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker: You really need to get out cragging more Bruce
Skyfall - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

> In your example bolting Cloggy would not be acceptable just because a meeting decided it was ok.

No, bolting Cloggy would never be acceptable.

Interesting UIAA report linked earlier though. A bit like stating the bleedin' obvious and quotes all the usual suspects, with perhaps not enough quotes from the younger generation of mixed discipline climbers (Dave M aside).
Bruce Hooker - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Jon Ratcliffe:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker) You really need to get out cragging more Bruce

Quite true, but I can't at present alas.

Anyway it looks like my hypothesis is wrong as the thefts might have been just simple thefts, not statements, if the ebay info is confirmed.

MJ - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to ian Ll-J:

These are just a few ideas(please chip in with more)...what we need is a solution and not endless debate and argument!

Any reason why the metalwork can't be engraved?
mrchewy - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ: Myself and a mate wondered the same thing. I guess stainless would be pretty tough to do?
mrchewy - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to mrchewy: Further to that - maybe the crag name engraved on it would stop people using them elsewhere. If I was climbing somewhere new to me, having the bolters name engraved might not mean anything but the wrong crag name on them would.
muppetfilter - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to mrchewy: It would be easy to individualy mark with something like a dremmel.
Richard Wilson - on 01 Dec 2012
How about lazer etching?
MJ - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to Richard Wilson:

How about lazer etching?

I think an engraver is cheaper to buy than a laser etcher...
Richard Wilson - on 01 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:

I was actually thinking that when the kit is ordered it could be marked by the seller / maker.

Then its rating would not be in question.
rockcat - on 02 Dec 2012
In reply to Richard Wilson: Etching the gear could be a very good idea and thanks for the suggestion. However as pointed out here there could be an issue with its rating. Anyone have any knowledge about this?

> (In reply to MJ)
>
> I was actually thinking that when the kit is ordered it could be marked by the seller / maker.
>
> Then its rating would not be in question.

a lakeland climber on 02 Dec 2012
In reply to rockcat:

how about the security paint that is invisible to the naked eye but contains a unique code? Not sure of cost per application but would be less worrying than engraving/marking a piece of safety equipment.

ALC
muppetfilter - on 02 Dec 2012
In reply to rockcat: A light surface etch will not affect the strength of any equipment .
MJ - on 02 Dec 2012
In reply to Richard Wilson:

I was actually thinking that when the kit is ordered it could be marked by the seller / maker.

That would be the ideal solution.


Then its rating would not be in question.

The only real problem with engraving is that you are 'Modifying PPE' and that you would need the manufacturers permission to do so. However and as an example, even though Petzl say exactly that in their documentation, they also say that engraving is permissable as long as it's not deeper than 0.1mm.
Might be an idea to contact the manufacturer/s of the concerned items.

Additionally, when I did a training course at Lyon Equipment a number of years ago, engraving was stated as being an acceptable means of identification.
Any active Rope Access Technicians want to confirm that this is still accepted practice?



jimtitt - on 02 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:

Bolts and lower-offs arenīt PPE but still are keep their certification if they are unmodified. Engraving is slow and laborious, we stamp the ID into our bolts if required which is still slow and laborious and thus costs extra!
highlander1 - on 02 Dec 2012
In reply to rockcat: i have a solution, me and my mate were discussing this situation today. we have come up with the idea of tack welding the lower offs to the bolts. We are willing and have the equipment to do this at the dyserth crags (as we live close by). we could do with a hand though to carry the small generator to the crag. AS for to bolt or not... Bolt the crag i say!! if you havent been there your missing out guys. All the local climbers over here work so hard to open up some new great hard sport routes,which without bolts would be totaly unclimbable. Keep up the good work guys and we will find the thives!!!
MJ - on 02 Dec 2012
In reply to jimtitt:

Bolts and lower-offs arenīt PPE but still are keep their certification if they are unmodified. Engraving is slow and laborious, we stamp the ID into our bolts if required which is still slow and laborious and thus costs extra!

I know that the bolts and chains etc aren't PPE, but obviously any Maillons or krabs used would be. Anyway, it doesn't really matter, all that's important from my point of view is that engraving wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the various metal components used.



James90 - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to mrchewy:
Crag names are unnessecarily long, a 3 digit identifier code could do the trick, not sure how they stamp them but you would only need to be able to stamp 9 digits to id all crags.
James90 - on 03 Dec 2012
Just had another thought, are the loweroffs marked with a batch number that could be used in part to help in identification?

(i apriciate that it is more usefull to prove that a bolt in question isn't a stolen 1 rather than is)
jimtitt - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to jimtitt)
>

> I know that the bolts and chains etc aren't PPE, but obviously any Maillons or krabs used would be. Anyway, it doesn't really matter, all that's important from my point of view is that engraving wouldn't have a detrimental effect on the various metal components used.

The components in a lower-off could start out either PPE or EN959, the moment they are permenantly or semi-permenantly installed they lose their PPE status as the personal inspection and use requirements are violated. But of course the requirements for (climbing)connectors for PPE are lower than for EN959 anyway.
Therefore they must either be dual certified or to EN959 but this is a somewhat grey area in the standards as exactly how far "Anchorage points forming an integral part of the structure or rock face" extends is nowhere defined.
The general opinion is that lower-offs that are supplied as one component (welded chain sets etc) are covered by the directive and seperate components fitted by others are not. The UIAA tried to bring in a revision of the standard to cover lower-offs but this was abandoned.

As far as engraving or whatever goes for EN959 at the customer end it is somewhat irrelevant since the standard is purely a manufacturing one and the anchors have no "rating" to lose once they have been sold.

alexkitts - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to lewk_c:
> (In reply to alexkitts)
>
> Soooo.... Back to the topic, does anybody know which routes are missing lower offs?

i think it was 'diamonds and pearls' a F5c, so to answer someone else's question yes it reasonably easy to access for non climbers (although i doubt it is as, as we all know this is not the only case on the A55 crags)
alexkitts - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to Jon Ratcliffe)
>
> Ken who?
I believe he's talking about the editor of mountain magazine and was heavily involved in the debate of bolt to not to bolt, (falling on the 'not to bolt' side
ian Ll-J - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to James90:
> (In reply to mrchewy)
> Crag names are unnessecarily long, a 3 digit identifier code could do the trick, not sure how they stamp them but you would only need to be able to stamp 9 digits to id all crags.

Engraving 3 digits will not deter any thieves or anyone they are selling them on to. 'Stolen From the Bolt Fund' may work though I doubt that engraving anything is the real solution...though resources permitting could be worth a try.
rockcat - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to ian Ll-J: I agree and that is a lot of engraving to put on each item. If you use Araldite on the threads or glue-ins with integral rings then it removes the opportunity to steal them other than with a hacksaw. Also tack welding could be an option as mentioned above.

If the thefts are something to do with the anti-bolt lobby then they have no right to take what does not belong to them. Those bolts and lower-offs were bought by the North Wales Bolt Fund and sometimes by the activists themselves. The trad ethic in this country (which I fully support) remains very strong and is not under threat by the bolting of a few local limestone crags which never got climbed on and now provide some excellent and popular climbing.

> (In reply to James90)
> [...]
>
> Engraving 3 digits will not deter any thieves or anyone they are selling them on to. 'Stolen From the Bolt Fund' may work though I doubt that engraving anything is the real solution...though resources permitting could be worth a try.

doylo - on 03 Dec 2012
We have well defined boundaries of what is acceptable to bolt and what should remain trad in North Wales. Everyone adheres to those boundaries and there is a large consensus so thanks for your input Jonnie in Scotland and Bruce in France but we're doing just fine.
jonnie3430 - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to doylo:

I think you are making a mistake and it will be regretted in the future.

Jonnie (half Welsh.)
doylo - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Well in 20 years when everyone sees the light they can knock the studs in and climb some ridiculously stupid trad routes. Not a problem
jonnie3430 - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to davo:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> I see you think that redpointing is the same as top-rope practise. This baffles me and I think shows a lack of understanding of what happens, on your part.
>
Care to explain how you redpoint without top roping?
davo - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to davo)
> [...]
> Care to explain how you redpoint without top roping?

Personally I quite often just lead up the route and check out the moves as I go. Seems fairly simple to me - just like the fact that you should go to the crags in question and check out whether you think they would make suitable trad crags before you spout on about it online!

Si dH - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
Most people red-point without top-roping. Stupid question although also besides the point.
Kid Spatula - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

The Tedium Brigade have arrived to ruin another topic! Anti bolt people are genuinely mental.
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dazwan on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to rockcat: Won't smart water work (or whatever it's called) someone mentioned it earlier, just splash it on and it has a unique "DNA" that can be traced but you have to find the actual gear first.

On the subject of whether to bolt or not, I propose ALL crags have stakes or bolts at the top for easy and safe belays (maybe hammer a few rungs in for those rough top-outs). Ladders or steps for easy downclimbs (at the very least a few chips on those e9's that nobody ever climbs) and concrete or Tarmac walkways along the bottom of the crag ;-)

Why can't people stop being so elitist about climbing. If you really want to preserve the rock, stay at home and if you do venture out, dont use metal protection (adopt the czech practice of knotted rope), only ever climb barefoot (less polish) and without chalk, NEVER wear any protective gear (to ensure you climb at the true grade) and sneer at anyone who uses a bouldering mat (despite all advice to use one as this apparently can help prevent erosion at the base of the climb). And people wonder why climbing is such a minority sport in the UK and that climbers here don't get the recognition they deserve. Get a grip!
spidermonkey09 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to dazwan: Brilliant. Agree with every word, the anti sport mentality is absolutely mental. Fairly sure its a generation thing, you don't see these opinions from the 20 somethings and under because we grew up with sport climbing.

Any luck with the ebay find?
MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jimtitt:

The components in a lower-off could start out either PPE or EN959, the moment they are permenantly or semi-permenantly installed they lose their PPE status as the personal inspection and use requirements are violated. But of course the requirements for (climbing)connectors for PPE are lower than for EN959 anyway.
Therefore they must either be dual certified or to EN959 but this is a somewhat grey area in the standards as exactly how far "Anchorage points forming an integral part of the structure or rock face" extends is nowhere defined.
The general opinion is that lower-offs that are supplied as one component (welded chain sets etc) are covered by the directive and seperate components fitted by others are not. The UIAA tried to bring in a revision of the standard to cover lower-offs but this was abandoned.

As far as engraving or whatever goes for EN959 at the customer end it is somewhat irrelevant since the standard is purely a manufacturing one and the anchors have no "rating" to lose once they have been sold.


Thanks for clarifying that.
In your experience, would engraving make any difference to the strength of an individual component?
I personally think not, but it would be good to get that confirmed from someone like yourself.

MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to rockcat:

If you use Araldite on the threads or glue-ins with integral rings then it removes the opportunity to steal them other than with a hacksaw. Also tack welding could be an option as mentioned above.

Just use a spanner with a longer handle, enough torque and you'll break the Araldite bond. Anyway, isn't one of the reasons for removable lower offs for just that i.e. they are replacable?
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Si dH:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> Most people red-point without top-roping. Stupid question although also besides the point.

I am clearly missing something then, as I said before; care to explain?
jimtitt - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:

Obviously I canīt speak for other companies products and you should ask them but for the gear we make engrave away! We number punch some of our bolts for a customer and where the numbers are isnīt where they break anyway.
Engraving is a bit difficult on stainless as it work hardens so the more common ways nowadays are chemical or laser etching.
Incidentally the ASCA (American Safe Climbing Association) have all their gear marked by stamping.
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Kid Spatula:

Bolters are genuinely mental. It is a different opinion. If you understood my point of view we would be getting somewhere. I think I understand yours but don't like it due to the irreversible damage it does to the outdoors for everyone in the future. I believe the situation to be similar to the 1930's when there was a strong backlash against pegs. If the UK community had caved in as much as the continentals did there would be far more damage than there is. Are pegs still needed? No, technology moved on. My point is that I think technology will move on and make bolts redundant, so don't bolt and leave the lines to future generations (or better climbers.)
MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Did you solo all the Sports Routes that you have done in your logbook?
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to dazwan:
>
> Why can't people stop being so elitist about climbing.

Elitist, what is elitist about it? Climbable rock is a limited natural resource, why you think you can go around drilling holes in it is beyond me.

Someone bolts a hard line, spends a while getting it done and moves on; leaving the route changed forever. Someone bolts an easy line, does it quickly then goes off and never does it again, saying to themselves "I hope others enjoy it." What part of "Protect the natural environment, leave no trace of your visit and take your litter home," don't they get? I'd be as annoyed by someone leaving rubbish at the base of a route, but at least I can clean that up.

jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Kid Spatula:
> (In reply to alexkitts)
>
> The Tedium Brigade have arrived to ruin another topic!

Surely emails would be better if you didn't want to invite public comment? What would be the point of a public post if it was censored to only those that believe the same as you?
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to spidermonkey09:
> (In reply to dazwan)

> Fairly sure its a generation thing, you don't see these opinions from the 20 somethings and under because we grew up with sport climbing.
>
A favourite quote is from a twenty something "I'd rather fail at trad than succeed at sport."
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> Did you solo all the Sports Routes that you have done in your logbook?

What do you think? My viewpoint is based on experience, not fundamentalism. Cheddar Gorge was a real pity. The routes I climbed there could have had trad gear, but were bolted and more worn as a result.
remus - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Kid Spatula)
> [...]
>
> Surely emails would be better if you didn't want to invite public comment? What would be the point of a public post if it was censored to only those that believe the same as you?

It's generally good form to stay on topic. That is discussion about why the lower offs have been stolen, not whether it is right or wrong.
Pekkie - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
>
'My point is that I think technology will move on and make bolts redundant, so don't bolt and leave the lines to future generations (or better climbers.'

So how come you've got a load of sport routes recorded in your UKC log book for this year?

jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to remus:

It started as a suggestion to why the lower offs kept getting stolen. As with most conversations it changed as the topic of conversation changed.
remus - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to MJ)
> [...]
>
> What do you think? My viewpoint is based on experience, not fundamentalism. Cheddar Gorge was a real pity. The routes I climbed there could have had trad gear, but were bolted and more worn as a result.

Nothing to do with the fact they're 3m from the road, then?
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Pekkie:

> So how come you've got a load of sport routes recorded in your UKC log book for this year?

Ah! Sorry, those weren't first ascents, I didn't bolt them as I don't believe in that. If you want to talk French ethics I think that really is a separate topic!
Rampikino - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Pekkie:

Seconded. It's very easy to say "If you can't climb it with trad then don't bolt it"

Yet that's a very naive view and somehow imagines some futuristic development in trad gear that hasn't been thought of yet but might be (suction cup runners?)

I'm a trad person myself, it's what I favour. However, I would never say that those people who have bolted the thousands of Limestone routes should not have done it. And to assume that a route could still be climbed by trad and therefore never needed bolting is just plain wrong.

Example. Ignimbrite in New Zealand.

The rock is a (young) volcanic mush that has hardened. It many places it has friable pockets that might be able to take cams, but often not. There are some cracks on some crags. However, many of the faces are simply not fit to take ANY trad gear. The options are simply - don't climb it, or bolt it.
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to remus:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)

> Nothing to do with the fact they're 3m from the road, then?

Why does that make any difference?
Pekkie - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> >
> 'Ah! Sorry, those weren't first ascents, I didn't bolt them as I don't believe in that. If you want to talk French ethics I think that really is a separate topic!'

Case rested.

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mrchewy - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to people off topic-

Any chance you can all start another thread and continue arguing ethics in that please?

Looks like Jim has offered some decent advice here about how to go about making the loweroffs, so at least that's a step forward in the right direction.
Rampikino - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

That's quite an enlightening answer you have just given. Looking at it in black and white actually makes me wonder whether or not you really know what your own argument is.

"I don't believe in it, so don't do it, but seeing as you've done it then I will go an enjoy it."

Erm...
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to Pekkie)
>
> don't climb it, or bolt it.

So don't climb it! Just because I can't climb Indian Face (Rule 38,) doesn't mean I can bolt and chip it to make it climbable. Some of Mick Fowlers loose routes would be safer with a bolt (or maybe not,) but it doesn't mean they should be bolted. There is no adventure for the next person that wants to have a go.
Rampikino - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to mrchewy:
> In reply to people off topic-
>
> Any chance you can all start another thread and continue arguing ethics in that please?
>
> Looks like Jim has offered some decent advice here about how to go about making the loweroffs, so at least that's a step forward in the right direction.

Apologies for straying. I do have a vested interest in the topic from both angles. I'm interested in how to protect bolts and lower offs, but also interested to know if there is an active group out there who will go after the metalwork because of their "ethical" stance
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Pekkie:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
> [...]
>
> Case rested.

On what? That I climbed some sport routes in France this year? Do you not think my argument would be considerably weaker if I had not climbed sport? It's about understanding different points of view. I don't really see that you have proved anything. Would I be a hypocrite for climbing a sport route tomorrow? Or do you think I should chop the bolts instead so I can stay closer to my beliefs?
Rampikino - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

It doesn't mean the routes in NZ are all hard - just impossible to protect without bolts. Sure, you can climb them, probably top rope them to death too. I soloed a few of them myself.

"Adventure for the next person that wants to have a go"

Romantic tripe mate.
MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Would I be a hypocrite for climbing a sport route tomorrow?

Yes
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> Romantic tripe mate.

For you, but not for all. For me the best days out are the ones with adventures, do you not remember fun?
Pekkie - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Hmm...Coming on UKC and arguing against bolting while at the same time recording loads of ascents of bolted routes on your UKC logbook? Hypocritical, would you say? Not to mention cheeky.
Rampikino - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

You know nothing whatsoever about me - so please don't descend into that generalised nonsensical vague mud slinging "I'm a better person than you" shite.

Have a look at my own logbook if you like and then decide if I have ever had fun in my climbing life - yesterday would be a good place to start.

jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> Would I be a hypocrite for climbing a sport route tomorrow?
>
> Yes

If you continue reading what I wrote, you are now suggesting that I chop bolts if they are on a route that I want to do so I can continue to protect my beliefs. I am not that extreme, but I will put my point across in public on a forum.
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Pekkie:

Sorry, are your opinions formed at birth? Is there no experience to back your argument? How do you expect someone to comment on something without having tried it out? Opinions change, or do you not accept that there is a chance, after another five or ten years of experience that you may be against bolting? If your answer is no, you are being simply foolish.
jonnie3430 - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to jonnie3430)
>
> You know nothing whatsoever about me - so please don't descend into that generalised nonsensical vague mud slinging "I'm a better person than you" shite.

OOOOhhhhhhh, you are the one who accused me of being a romantic, no need to be a potty mouth.
>
> Have a look at my own logbook if you like and then decide if I have ever had fun in my climbing life - yesterday would be a good place to start.

Sounds a bit grim to be honest. Type 2?

MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

If you continue reading what I wrote, you are now suggesting that I chop bolts if they are on a route that I want to do so I can continue to protect my beliefs. I am not that extreme, but I will put my point across in public on a forum.

I would suggest that you would never climb a bolted route again.
However, I've got a suspicion that you might be trolling...
MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to jimtitt:

Thanks again for your input.
I'm not from the North Wales area, so any decision about engraving etc wouldn't be mine to make. I just speak from experience of engraving various bits of PPE and thus know it's an easy way to identify them.
Speaking of which, I've engraved stainless krabs in the past and didn't find it too difficult. Would the higher grade/forming required in some lower off components make this more difficult?
jimtitt - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:

The stainless is difficult to engrave bit was just what the industry say but Iīve never really tried so donīt know, they are possibly talking about doung large sections like signs. I had some gear engraved once no problem but the problem for me was the last manufacturing process we use is wet abrasive tumbling which makes it unreadable so I abandoned the idea.
colina - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to alexkitts: someone said the thieves may be against bolting on that particular route .im assuming the route couldnt be climbed/protected anyway without bolts.seems a bit bizarre to take these off .
cant see it being done for scrap,maybe some hard up schoolkids for a dare.
either way its not on.
alexkitts - on 04 Dec 2012
for all you 'anti bolting' people, this is NOT what this topic is about!
despite your views on whether things should be bolted or not, personally waterfall crag doesn't strike me as a trad crag anyway this is about theft, and its wrong! there are much better ways to vent your anger!, whether its for moral reasons or not, we're not looking for reasons as to why these people are doing this, granted it would be nice to shed some light on the matter, but who is doing this and how are we going to stop them!!!
NottsRich on 04 Dec 2012
Serious question: Is anyone creating a record of where the disappearances of the bolts are occurring? Or is the only record random postings on an internet forum? I can't work out if there have been 5 disappearances or 55!
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Pekkie:

> Hmm...Coming on UKC and arguing against bolting while at the same time recording loads of ascents of bolted routes on your UKC logbook? Hypocritical, would you say?

It isn't though if he was in a place like France where everything is bolted... are you really claiming that anyone who is against bolting should simply not climb if he is in a country like France?

If you are then that sounds pretty fanatical to me.
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Bruce Hooker - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:

> I would suggest that you would never climb a bolted route again.

That's an absolutely stupid thing to say! So someone who says he doesn't like fish that much should be forbidden from eating fish?

I've often noticed that bolting fans when scratched even slightly - in this case simply saying he doesn't think much of bolting - become rapidly quite wild and excessive, not to say tyrannical (in word alone, of course).

Here's the same link I gave above to a UIAA article in which a large number of quite well known climbers, some of whom have contributed enormously to the activity over the years, express their views on bolting... Do you really think that because of their views, often expressed with a lot more lurid prose than on this thread up to now, they should never climb a bolted route again?

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/trad-versus-sport-climbing-uiaa-looks-to-find-a-balance

Personally a quite liked the one near the bottom who used the metaphor I've used before of rape, forced entry, and not even with one's own muscle power, a lump of iron on a power drill mostly these days.


MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

It isn't though if he was in a place like France where everything is bolted... are you really claiming that anyone who is against bolting should simply not climb if he is in a country like France?

Not all of his recorded routes on bolts are in France. Some are even in the very same area that he was criticising the use of bolts.

MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

That's an absolutely stupid thing to say!

See my post above. He was openly criticising bolted routes, but was quite happy to climb bolted routes in the UK and in North Wales too.
MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Here's the same link I gave above to a UIAA article in which a large number of quite well known climbers, some of whom have contributed enormously to the activity over the years, express their views on bolting

Yes and if you read the article, they are in the main criticising what's happening on mainland Europe. Indeed, they seem to hold the UK up as an example of good climbing ethics and tradition.
MJ - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

That's an absolutely stupid thing to say! So someone who says he doesn't like fish that much should be forbidden from eating fish?

No of course not. However, if he said that fishing was unethical, that fish stocks should be left for future generations and was then caught eating fish and chips...

Bruce Hooker - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:

> He was openly criticising bolted routes, but was quite happy to climb bolted routes in the UK and in North Wales too.

So what? I do the same, living in France I don't have much choice! Not only do you want to drill holes all over the cliffs but you have the cheek do deny those who would rather you didn't from climbing there!

Coming back to the subject, has no one followed up the bolts for sale on ebay lead yet? Looks like the pecuniary motive for these lower off thefts was a false one... which leaves....
johang - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to alexkitts:

Yo guys, are we any closer to getting permission for those bolts up great slab?

Ramblin dave - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to johang:
> (In reply to alexkitts)
>
> Yo guys, are we any closer to getting permission for those bolts up great slab?

Like Bruce says, why does some self appointed "representative body" have the right to get together and decide what people can do? Don't wait for "consensus", just get out there and get drilling!
johang - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:

I was just kidding by the way.

Ramblin dave - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to johang:
I guessed!
jonnie3430 - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
>
> That's an absolutely stupid thing to say!
>
> See my post above. He was openly criticising bolted routes, but was quite happy to climb bolted routes in the UK and in North Wales too.

How do you know my state of mind? I dislike bolted routes, that should be pretty evident from what I have written. That doesn't mean I am that stupid that I will not climb if it means clipping bolts. Your world is far too black and white, while human nature means reality is many shades of grey. If I was as rigid as you seem to want me to be I would have chopped all that I had done too. You are almost encouraging me to stand up more for what I believe in and chop more!

A question that has interested me from the start is whether Magnificent Rita would go with trad gear. The crack ( http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=199610 ) seems perfect for it? If it will go, but has been bolted, I would expect them to be chopped in the near future and the actions of the bolter to be dragged out into the open.
jonnie3430 - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to johang)
> [...]
>
> Like Bruce says, why does some self appointed "representative body" have the right to get together and decide what people can do? Don't wait for "consensus", just get out there and get drilling!

Great!! By that argument I can just get out there and start chopping!
Ramblin dave - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:
> (In reply to Ramblin dave)
> [...]
>
> Great!! By that argument I can just get out there and start chopping!

Well yes, that and the fact that it allows people to bolt Great Slab is the reason that it's a stupid argument.
davo - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

Have you ever actually been to Dyserth Waterfall Crag?

I seriously doubt it, because if you had it would be obvious that it is no great loss to the world of trad.

The actions of the person who bolted Magnificent Rita are out in the open because the name is in the guide which you would know if you had ever been there or bought the guide!

Trad and bolted routes happily co-exist in North Wales and there is a sensible attitude to what makes a good trad crag and what would be better to bolt. Maybe you should visit the areas in question and make an informed judgement?
Bruce Hooker - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to davo:

> Trad and bolted routes happily co-exist in North Wales

If that's the case how do you explain the events that have led to this thread, and others before? It looks like some people are unhappy.
metal arms on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to davo)
>
> [...]
>
> If that's the case how do you explain the events that have led to this thread, and others before? It looks like some people are unhappy.

I've made a thread for you - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=529958

jimtitt - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to davo)
>
> [...]
>
> If that's the case how do you explain the events that have led to this thread, and others before? It looks like some people are unhappy.

An interesting conceptual leap. If they are being taken to equip other routes surely this means they are unhappy about the lack of sport routes?
jkarran - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to jonnie3430:

> Care to explain how you redpoint without top roping?

LOL. You're kidding, right? Bolt to bolt.

jk

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