/ Does anyone do this with ice screws?

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GridNorth - on 03 Dec 2012
Thread a QD over the screw with a krab attached to the other end. I've seen guides do it in the alps but I'm not totally convinced that it's safe. There are several advantages. Less karabiners to carry, less chance of the second dropping the screw as it can stay attached to the rope, quicker set up.

The Grivel Speedy works on this principle but they are expensive and you end up paying for karabiners that you may already have.
andic - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:

I have Grivel speedys, brilliant idea in the shop but I find the swirling quick draw of death quite annoying when winding them in
GridNorth - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to andic: Do the advantages outweigh the disadvantages though? Not that I can afford to replace all my screws but I could be tempted to use QD's on the same principle if I thought that it was safe. Carrying 10 less krabiners would be nice and this year I'm taking a novice out so lessening the chance of losing screws is very attractive.
andic - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:
They are a bit quicker to place and it is nice to not have to get aQD off your harness and fiddle about with it in gloves also you can clip into the screws twice which could be handy at a belay.

The spinning tape and crab is annoying tho!
GridNorth - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to andic:
> (In reply to GridNorth)

> The spinning tape and crab is annoying tho!

Does it not work like this in the real world then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLsNDuS7Zkk
Neil Adams - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth: The Speedies are probably designed for it, but I'd be wary with other screws. Conventional wisdom used to be that if you had a shallow screw placement, it was better to tie it off to minimise the moment on the placement. Tests showed that this made placements more likely to fail because of stress concentrations at the threads, even in relatively deep placements. I'd be concerned that the same would happen here.
mike kann - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth: Dont do it. its been shown to crush the tube of the screw and cause failure.
GridNorth - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to Neil Adams: Not sure that that was my understanding. I thought it was more to do with applying inappropriate leverage on the screw and that the tests showed that then strength of a screw was on the threads and not the screws pressure against the ice. I would have thought that this levering affect would be minimal if the screw is fully in.
GridNorth - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to mike kann: That's interesting and the kind of data I'm looking for. Where has "it been shown"?
george mc - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:
http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/cust_images/pdf/mountainsport%20articles/GMacMar07%20Protection%20fo...

Old article but has references to follow up. I'm not sure that tube failure due to crushing was the issue with slings larkfooted around the tube - more the sling being cut. Again less than 5cm Ok to tie-off more than 5cm maybe think about placing a shorter screw or tie-off and accpet the fact your gear is not as strong.
Barry Kerwin - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:
Hi, I think there is mileage in what you are proposing, certainly if you use thin slings and don't larks foot them, but instead loop them over the screw. (some are bar tacked down their length leaving a narrow loop) This will mean any force applied in a fall situation will exert only the width of the sling away from where the load is designed to act. Admittedly there will be an inevitable compromise on capability to withstand a force in this scenario. But just how much??
In reply to GridNorth: climbing technology do a special crab/sling especially for this:
http://www.climbingtechnology.it/en-US/climbing/ice/screws.html?idproduct=553
Barry Kerwin - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to Carrot Boy

The issue is who supplies them? Endeavours thus far have resulted in zero. Have you got a name of a distributor? e-mails to CT have been exhausted.
GridNorth - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to carrot_boy (North East Wales MC): Yes I've seen that but it still seems like an expensive solution. If they just sold the metal ring and sling I would be interested but I'm not paying for a krab when I already have dozens sitting in the cupboard. And I'm not sure where you would get them in the UK.
niallG on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to andic:

...has been proven to crush the tube?

Where does this stuff come from? Quick draw on the tube- someone invented it once and then back in the days when we used to buy back yard Russian titanium this became common to thread 2/3's of a draw over the tube as the hangar on a Russian screw was about as well attached as a coke ring pull.
Also helped when you hit rock at less than full screw depth as you could slide the draw backward and cut the leverage which proper fails tube placements. Tends to cut the draw up though after time.

Shearing? The spiral tooth pulling out? You have to be joking....I mean get real. They do fall out but its from heating up if you leave them in in the sun.

The swirling quick draw of death?....just how deadly is that on a scale of one to ten. Hold on I'm just seeing if Adnan Khashoggi will take a few off my hands.



In reply to niallG:

> The swirling quick draw of death?...

Swirling quick draw of a chipped tooth is closer to it with my experience of the Grivel speedies.
andic - on 03 Dec 2012
In reply to niallG:

Are you actually replying to me? Re-read or actually read my posts and try to work out what I am saying.

On another note I have forgotten more about the behaviour of metal than you know, arse
nniff - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to andic:

Yates ice-screams work both as QD screamer or tie off screamer, although I've never tied anything off with mine.


http://www.yatesgear.com/climbing/screamer/index.htm


THe grivel speedy do whirl around and are a bit of PITA in that regard, but frankly ice screws are a PITA anyway. However, if you keep them in a flute there's less faff than most, so my two are keepers. Just don't put your face in the way....
Toby_W on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:

There is only one ice screw I want in may hand when climbing the steep stuff, but that's my preference. As to the pausing half way to clip the rope, really, once the things bitten I wind like crazy until it's in and the whole not dropping it when they show it sliding down back to your waist with the rope going up? Surly it would slide down to the last screw which I admit is better than the whole "did you see where it landed".

The lovely stuff but I can't see them improving on my favourites.

Cheers

Toby
Toby_W on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Toby_W:

That's they make lovely stuff ....

Cheers

Toby
niallG on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to andic:

I agree I know quite little about the finite behaviours of metals...I only know what I do with them. It was a bit of a combo reply- to several people at one time with no intention to aim critique at you- point taken. I do see you like the concept- and the only thing I would say is that its hard to place screws at the best of times- its a compromise design so far. I was just surprised at how deadly you thought the sling was...

As for the proven to crush the tube comment from someone else- limited knowledge of metals or not- that one I really did laugh at.
GridNorth - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth: Come on guys get back on message. I am genuinely interested in experienced ice climbers opinions on the wisdom of doing this.
niallG on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to TobyA:

So is the "other Toby" the one who is always chewing tobaco.....Mahawww.
niallG on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:

I find any tie off a lot safer than hitting rock or verglass (or worse-void) down half way and then just clipping the ring pull- I am super sure it would fail on leverage. There are plenty of times when you have to shorten the leaver arm- so if the way so do it is on the screw already so much the better. I think these are a great piece of kit you just need to wind them slower.
In reply to Toby_W:
> As to the pausing half way to clip the rope, really, once the things bitten I wind like crazy until it's in

Yes - except for in VERY cold ice, once a screw has bitten, I reckon it probably takes me 3 - 5 seconds to wind it to the hilt? The only exception is if there is some knobbly bit of ice stopping the last couple of turns. Then with the Speedys I own I might actually clip in before going back to smacking the handle of the screw with the palm of my hand!

GridNorth - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth: The point of the method with the QD is that under ideal circumstances the screw is still essentially screwed most of the way in but can still be used as a tied off piece if necessary.
niallG on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:

Yes that's the exact utility of it. Maybe if you carried more shorter screws it would'nt be necessary - that may be an alternative- but there is always the unexpected and it always is when your really gripped so not to have to change out the screw is super important.
GridNorth - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to niallG: You are missing the point of this thread. I do carry shorter screws for thin ice. What I am talking about is having a QD permanently on every screw the advantages being a) less krabs to carry, perhaps as many as 10 or 12 b) less chance of dropping the screw as it could be removed while still clipped to the rope and c) quicker set up i.e it would only require two actions, place the screw and clip the rope rather than the additional action of reaching for a QD. IMO it seems like a very good system but I am interested to know if it would compromise the strength of the screw and the placement significantly.
Milesy - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:
> (In reply to niallG) You are missing the point of this thread. I do carry shorter screws for thin ice. What I am talking about is having a QD permanently on every screw

On long and horrible sleepless Scottish winter walk-ins you want to be carrying as little gear as possible but also gear which can be used in different ways. I am not going to draws on all my screws that I can not use for rock gear. I want to save weight and space by using the draws for any gear I have. I will take the remote chance of dropping a draw or screw.
GridNorth - on 04 Dec 2012
In reply to Milesy: Fair points but I am thinking about continental ice falls where it is mostly ice screw pro. I will also be climbing with a complete ice novice. To me the benefits seem obvious I'm just not sure about the safety of it even though I have seen guides use this method. This was before the BD research into the strength of placements however hence my concern.
nniff - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:

One argument against tying off is that the hanger arrangement cust through the tape, to the extent that clipping a sticky-out screw is actually stronger, especially in a teeth-higher-than-head configuration.

THe grivel speedy screws have a steel attechment to the screw (and don't locate anywhere other than up by the hanger)
GridNorth - on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to nniff: Yes I can see the logic of that in theory but having played around with a QD and screw passed through the opening of the draw I'm not convinced that it is, in practice, a real risk. Obviously the guides who I have seen do this didn't think so either. I do concede however that the metal ring is a much better solution.
Erstwhile on 05 Dec 2012
In reply to GridNorth:
I have three rigged like that. Used sewn quickdraw slings and sewed them smaller for a snug fit. Need to keep a rubber band on the tube downshaft or the quickdraw screws off during removal (very annoying). The rubber bands should be easy to slide down, obviously, for immediate tying off effect when required (not that often in practice).

This system saves biners, and means that you can clip in before finishing (or from start) so giving protection while working. The system is brilliant for removal cause you leave them on the rope and avoid dropping.

They become annoying if you need long extension, when you have to use more biners. They are constantly annoying if you rig them with long extenders because of pokey out dangling effect.

Overall worth having a few like this for those flustery lead moments and the rest in normal nude state.

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