Are you happy with 7.8mm?
Just wondering and pondering
8.5mm for me. I've climbed on friends icelines in winter which seem fine right up to the point where I start to get scared leading on mixed - and then suddenly they look very very thin and vulnerable!
I've been happy with 8mm pheonixes but I've rarely fallen on them (I think only on the start to one climb). I've caught a few falls with them though.
I bought them over thicker ropes to reduce the weight for walkins in Scotland, and I bought 60's as I find them useful in winter.
Now I no longer live in Scotland I will consider getting 50m 8.5's.
Hah! My thinking, but maybe I am just paranoid?
With 8mm I'm definitely more cautious (than my old 9mm) of leading in a position where only one rope is protecting me from a nasty fall.
For example in a climb which climbs a long left crack and then one to the right I'll be more likely to run both ropes to the left and then the right. Although Obviously I'll extend the right rope more if it's running to the left and not run it as high up. On my old 9mm's I was less cautious regarding this. So you are not running the ropes quite a smoothly always, but the thinner ropes drag less anyways.
> Hah! My thinking, but maybe I am just paranoid?
I think using two ropes as long as gear on both ropes will prevent a nasty fall (ie ground, ledge etc) then you already have enough redundancy with 2 x 8mm.
I am more worried about fat belay plates used with skinny ropes (see http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=528625&v=1#x7109516 ) than with skinny ropes as such (but they do worry me a bit too). I especially like a good fat sport climbing rope!
Me? I sometimes don't use any at all.
I know you are and I can see your point! Thing is is it just a user fault or is it just better to continue withe 8.5s???
Hey, no slow day - although I am laid of with the flu so that might be it.., its a real thing! We have come into a new 7.8mm rope (a very much appreciated and completely unnecessary present of a good friend) but in the past 15 years of climbing I have always tried to stay clear of such thin ropes. There is the "never look a gitf horse in the mouth sentiment obviously, but then again....I just don't like these thin ropes for everyday use...?
I'm on 8.1mm Ice lines and have been for 5 ish years, I'm still on the first set, they are a bit worn, one had to get chopped to 48m from 60m but largely still ok. They have held a few falls, if you fall off seconding you will
really really feel the stretch!
Fallen on them seconding a few times but can't say it's any worse than falling on 8.5s, maybe that's just these ropes tho. I don't fall often enough to notice tho maybe.
Chuffed to bits with them to be honest, they handle well.
Icelines. On my second set (first set stolen a couple of years ago). Some people moan about them tangling easily but you just need good, disciplined ropework and you are fine.
> I know you are and I can see your point! Thing is is it just a user fault or is it just better to continue withe 8.5s???
I have switched to a buguette and used it with (I think) 8.5's at the weekend. Virtually no chance of dropping anyone, but a bit unnervingly jerky retreating off a less than 100% abseil anchor!
Sometimes paranoid is no bad thing...
I don't think so. I have had an 8.2 mm cut half-way through by a rock - with my partner hanging on the end of it!
Ropes that thin also weave themselves into a spiders web if you so much as glance at them.
very impressed by new joker but not looking forward to carrying them longer than northern corries...
I still think that ice-lines are fairly specialist kit. Great for the Ben or Alpine climbing, but too long and too skinny for most mixed. I tend to see Scottish mixed as pretty similar to rock-climbing - lots of changes of direction, abrasion over rough edges, and yes, tendency for leaders to take lobs!
In an ideal world with limitless money I would have a pair of 8.1mm x 60m and 9mm x 50m. In this here real world I've got 8.6 x 60 for everything.
i realise this goes against conventional wisdom but myself and others have found the 8mm pheonixes are actually very abrasion resistent. mine are around 5 years old and still looking in good shape. For me this no longer a factor id worry about when considering which ropes to buy. I find there is a noticeable amount less drag with them which may contrubute towards this.
When was the last time you contemplated a fall on mixed ground? This may change your thinking rather sharply!
I was given an 8.5 mammut genesis to replace an 8.1 iceline at the start of the summer because I didn't like the iceline. It seemed to wear more easily (no surprise as there is less material,) which never made me completely comfortable. In addition, the falls I have taken on it always seemed to go on for longer than they should due to the amount of stretch and when seconds have fallen on what should be a tight rope, they have dropped that bit further which isn't great. I also tried climbing it once after it got stuck on an ab, the bounce and size of the rope make it really difficult to get prussics to stick and the stretch meant that I didn't go anywhere fast.
I don't know if the other skinny ropes have the same stretch properties as the iceline, but the difficulty to prussic on and just fear of wear and abrasion on a skinny rope will have me on 8.5's (if I get the choice!)
were you using 5mm prussic?
Why would mixed ground be any different to a trad fall? I use these ropes for summer climbing too. But yeah I don't fall off much on any form of trad! Although one of my climbing partners seems to like testing them ;)
In any case when I have gear on both ropes that would prevent a nasty fall, I consider this enough redundancy for me. I'd certainly be feeling a bit shaky about taking a fall where only one 8mm was protecting me from likely injury especially if there were any sharp edges about or the fall may involve a swing and the rope sawing across an edge, but then I'd really want a 9mm to be starting to feel more bomber in these situations anyways.
I agree though the thinner the rope the more likely cut, abrasion resistance as mentioned hasn't been an issue though, and threads regularly come up confirming this point with phoenixes.
As with many climbing related decisions I don't think there is a right or wrong answer and it's down to informed personal choice. The main factors I'd consider when buying half ropes are:
- sharp edge resistance / likely hood of getting cut.
- retention of elasticity over multiple falls (how often will you fall on these). Indeed if you fall a lot 8mm may not be the best idea due to rope wear either!
- safety of bringing up a second on a single line (how often will you climb as a 3 especially where the seconds are likely to actually fall off).
- Weight for both walking in and whilst climbing.
- Reduction of drag using thinner ropes.
- Increased tangle factor of thinner ropes.
- Max force on gear.
- Abrasion resistance (although as mentioned 8mm's don't necessarily under perform in this regard).
- Will I be using the ropes in a wet environment? do I require dry treatment.
there was definitly nothing wrong with the good all days 50m of 9mm rope doing everything. admittedly being 5m short of belays on the ben wasn't great...
So for you, size really does matter!!!
> were you using 5mm prussic?
Sorry, I've just checked my logbook, but can't find anywhere where I recorded the prussic size I was using in January 09 (or the route I was on!)
"if i fall on mixed I don't want masses of stretch"
elongation at 1st drop (fall) 29
elongation with 80kg per cent 8,0
elongation at 1st drop (fall) 32
elongation with 80kg per cent 9
Seems like the pheonix actually stretches less that the genesis according to mammut.
I always carry 5mm for prussicing on thinner ropes, arguably that could be too thick for some supper skinny ropes now a days!
> So for you, size really does matter!!!
Haha, course it does!
Like your new route name btw
> I still think that ice-lines are fairly specialist kit. Great for the Ben or Alpine climbing, but too long and too skinny for most mixed. I tend to see Scottish mixed as pretty similar to rock-climbing - lots of changes of direction, abrasion over rough edges, and yes, tendency for leaders to take lobs!
> In an ideal world with limitless money I would have a pair of 8.1mm x 60m and 9mm x 50m. In this here real world I've got 8.6 x 60 for everything.
We have got 8.5 mm x 50 and 8.5mm x 60 which seems fine. But the 60s aren't the freshest anymore (and nicer are the 50s atcually) and one of them is now a wee bit shorter. This new rope looks smart, but so thin....
That seemed to claim that this rope was a pretty good compromise candidate for the various selection criteria.
Having said that, I don't know anyone who has actually used one, so its hard to say if the claims are true.
My general rule is 8.5mm 50s for rock (UK trad, mixed and alpine rock) and 8mm 60s for ice (The Ben, cascades and expeditions.)
If climbing as a three I don't like using ropes thinner than 8.5mm.
To replace you 60s you could try the new DMM Migrants. They're 8.2 so are little bit thicker than Icelines, but they also have a higher impact force so you stop when you fall off!
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