/ Leashes or Leashless for First Time Winter Climb??

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Nath - on 11 Dec 2012
I made the transition to Leashless a while ago, but I started and climbed for a number of years with Leashes.

I'm taking someone on their first foray into Winter, Grade II I would think - certainly no harder.

Would you advise missing out "Leashes" and going straight for the Leashless experience or would you suggest a couple of routes with Leashes first?

I am wondering whether the perceived support to the wrists would make a first timer feel a little more secure - possible stop them tiring?

I can borrow pair of Axes that they can use that can be set with/without.

Regards

Nat

neil the weak - on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: Lanyards. Leashes will just make everything faffier and more tangly for the poor second.
Milesy - on 11 Dec 2012
For seconding on that grade you cant go wrong with wrist leashes. Up to grade IV I find seconding fine with them. It is only when leading they became a faff to me once you are fiddling about with placing gear and stuff.
fire_munki on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to neil the weak:
I did my 1st winter week last Feb, I was advised to use leashes in the course notes.
My guide for the week saw us all with leashes and remarked that leashless with tether would be easier.

He was right, going up the grade II gulleys where you need one axe the leash was a pain when you come to swap over to other hand. Funnily enough I've now got a springy tether for my axes.
thedatastream on 11 Dec 2012
Springy tethers is the way forward, so much easier (and therefore fun) to use.
KellyKettle - on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: so long as their axe has at least one handrest then Spinner leashes or the like would seem logical to me. Leashes are a defin8ate faff but if your tool lacks handrests (like mine) then you're much better off with them.
The Ex-Engineer - on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: It won't make a blind bit of difference on grade II, however I greatly dislike novices doing one thing whilst I do something different.

If climbing with a single, traditional mountaineering or alpine axe I'd probably go with having a traditional leash fitted just in case, for the steeper sections. However, equally often on the easiest grade I/II terrain, or Alpie Faciles/PDs, I wouldn't use anything.

If climbing with a more technical axe (or axes) more suited for leashless climbing (i.e. with either triggers or a pommel/griprest fitted) then using an elasticated tether would definitely be my first choice. Although, with that style of axe, if a tether wasn't available I'd probably exhort my second not to drop the axes rather than improvise a tether or fit leashes.
WILLS - on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: first timer is likely to fumble gear extraction and drop an axe. As someone else has said lanyards are the way forward.
GridNorth - on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: Leashes are a right royal pain in the proverbial which is ironic because when they first came out everyone thought they were the dogs do das. I have had a couple of seasons leashless and have to say it was a revelation and I would never go back. There is however some confusion with regard to the terminology used. Leashes in the modern sense are the close fitting wrist loops that detach from the axe, with varying degrees of ease, but stay permanently on the wrists, some love them others hate them but their usage is largly a personal choice. Usually referred to as "clipper leashes". Older leashes were permanently attached to the axe in a vast variety of ways and were a faff to get the hands in and out of but IMO still have a place on easy grades especially where only one tool is needed. The devices that attach to the harness should more correctly be called lanyards and are probably advisable for novices or those who are nervous about dropping an axe.
Nath - on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath:

For Clarity when i mean Leashless they will still be attached via a lanyard. So Axe cannot be dropped.

I'll be taking my son who has inherited his dads feeble arms - so i was worried that he might get tired. ;-)

The axes he will be using will be Grivel Alp Wings which have a full Lockdown style Leash but can be used with a lanyard.

Re Single axe on Grade II - as he is 13 he most will definately need two axes - "cause it looks a lot cooler for post climb facebook updates"

Nat B
waiting for snow - on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath:

Only last week I took a mate for his first winter climb. He found the leashes on my spare Fly's an annoyance; BUT:
a) as a beginner I didn't think he would have the discipline to "not drop" a tool. I appreciate that on grade II ground it will likely only fall at their feet, but its an added concern.
b) he was a none climber, so I felt the 2 springer leash lanyards would likely get tangled with the rope at belays and mid route, whilst wrist leashes really shouldn't!
c) on grade II terrain you don't really need to switch hands on axes, the only faff is at belays and when extracting runners.
d) on grade II terrain it is usual to use the shaft of the axe, rather than the pick (in my limited experience). I hate using a clipper lanyard attached to the bottom of the shaft whilst doing this, especially as a learner might be less careful with their placements?
e) confindence on slopes; if he takes a slide, finding an axe on a lanyard can be a nightmare if he has let go? Actually its quite dangerous as the axe will do its own thing whilst almost chasing the falling walker on a piece of elastic?

Maybe the truth though is that I learnt that way, so felt he should?
Michael Gordon - on 11 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath:

The simple answer is it depends on the axes. If they're using Flys then probably better with leashes; if they're using Fusions (doubtful) then better with lanyards.
Nath - on 12 Dec 2012
In reply to Michael Gordon: They will be using Grivel Alpwings.

So can have lanyards fixed to top or bottom of shaft - I have feeling that he will want to fix at bottom for the full "Swing".

Nat
Mark Bannan - on 12 Dec 2012

> I'll be taking my son who has inherited his dads feeble arms - so i was worried that he might get tired. ;-)
>

Arm strength is not important below about Grade IV
Scott_vzr on 12 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: Agreed, more likely to have burning calfs !
Michael Gordon - on 12 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
>
> So can have lanyards fixed to top or bottom of shaft - I have feeling that he will want to fix at bottom for the full "Swing".
>
>

yep no point in attaching the lanyards to the head of the axe.
davy_boy - on 12 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: why would they need full swing on grade II most of it would just be plunging with the axe or holding it near the top of the shaft. i personaly just use the leash on easy ground with mountaineering axe but do have lanyards for more technical tools.
Nath - on 13 Dec 2012
In reply to davy_boy:
> (In reply to Nath) why would they need full swing on grade II ?

Because he is 13....

When I was sorting out my winter stuff he commented that the axe would be a really good hand to hand weapon in a Zombie Apocolypse!!!

Nath
Blue Straggler - on 13 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon) They will be using Grivel Alpwings.
>
> So can have lanyards fixed to top or bottom of shaft

If youa re talking about leashless, you can attach them in the middle too, with smart use of some strong 2mm cord (and ideally some heatshrink). I'll try to upload some pics later when I get home. This was invaluable when I went leashless with Grivel Matrix Lights because there is not a big "eye" at the bottom of the shaft into which to clip the springer leash, so you'd end up frigging some sort of loop down there with cord, which is a right old mess frankly. Thanks to Oceanic for the suggestion.

I don't know the Alpwing.

nufkin - on 13 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath:
> (In reply to davy_boy)
> [...]
the axe would be a really good hand to hand weapon in a Zombie Apocolypse!!!
>

I dunno, I think I'd prefer something that keeps a bit of distance between me and the zombie hordes. Plus I don't think the newfangled ergonomic tools these days would actually be all that good for brain smashing - too much fancy wrist action needed, not enough plain welly.
ads.ukclimbing.com
In reply to nufkin: Unless you ground off all the teeth, they would just get stuck in the first zombies skull anyway, so fine for the first one, but not so good when you have to face down a hoard. From my studies of Walking Dead I would think a samurai sword is the best edged weapon, for those who don't have a .45 to hand.
nufkin - on 13 Dec 2012
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to nufkin) a samurai sword is the best edged weapon

Probably, but relatively hard to come by, I'd have thought.

I've just spent the past few minutes gazing out of the window wondering whether a beefy hex on a rope or a sort of flail made out of linked krabs would be more effective?
skarabrae - on 13 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: id go for leashless on lanyards, im guessing he`l be on a rope & belaying you at stances? if so, then if hes using leashes, theres always the chance he can drop an axe at the stance when hes has to remove the leashes to belay you (you could avoid this by also having a lanyard attached, but then that adds even more faff) im my view, he`l enjoy the experience far more with lanyards, free to swap hands, swing axes like a madman fending of flesh eating zombies, easier to change hand position from swinging to plunging to daggering, no fear of dropping an axe when he looses concentration (at belays, or when removing gear) & he`ll look much cooler on his facebook pics, which is far more important for him than the actual climbing experience )

davey.
jonnie3430 - on 13 Dec 2012
In reply to nufkin:

A spade with the edges sharpened, get grinding! (Have just finished world war Z and am getting ready...)
Euge - on 13 Dec 2012
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> (In reply to Nath)
> [...]
>
> yep no point in attaching the lanyards to the head of the axe.

Hmmmm... on grade 2 gullies you need to stab the shaft of the axe in quite a lot. Lanyards connected to the bottom are crap for this!!!

E
Michael Gordon - on 13 Dec 2012
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to nufkin) I would think a samurai sword is the best edged weapon

probably quite good for plunging also?
Nath - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath: Cheers guys, will set them up on Lanyards, just need some bloody time to get out now.....oh and the conditions. This weekend was looking good time wise but looks like the weather is working against me this weekend.

Could be worse, could be Zombies.

Nath B
ice.solo - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Nath:

leashless. also monopoints.

spinners if youre worried about them dropping them, but all the hoo ha of leashes will only cloud the process. they will tire less from proper shaking out than being tied onto sharp weapons.
spare them the whole 'should i go leashless???' soul-searching that will come if they stick with it.
Euge - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to ice.solo:
> (In reply to Nath)
>
> leashless. also monopoints.
>

For Grade II gullies!!!! Nah

E

nufkin - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Michael Gordon:
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
>
> probably quite good for plunging also?

Hah!

Plunging is overrated, mind.
Cuthbert on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Euge:

I know. This is one thread where the answer should be - get out and stop asking stupid questions on the internet.
ice.solo - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Euge:
> (In reply to ice.solo)
> [...]
>
> For Grade II gullies!!!! Nah
>
> E

yes thats the reality - but the fantasy is more enticing.
Euge - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to Euge)
>
> I know. This is one thread where the answer should be - get out and stop asking stupid questions on the internet.

Damn... I wish there was a LIKE button!!!!

E

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