/ Dog Rescue in Central Gully Great End
Well done to all involved.
Good effort. I came across this dog, and another dog which had followed their owner (local farmer) up into central gully. I witnessed the farmer literally throw one of the dogs back down the gully, and watched the dog slide helplessly a good 200m (thankfully no one was coming up) and somehow the dog walked away unscathed. I soloed past the farmer (a very angry man) and hoped the other dog would be ok. Glad you guys managed to help the other dog. Things could have been very serious if one of the dogs had fallen onto a climber below. The owner needs to have a word with himself. Idiot!
Reminds me of this one :)
Guys that was me (Matt) the female dog got down safely after Dan (Bulman) lowered me & her to safety - other parties encouraged her down after that - was only a half-hour used in saving her life ^^
Apparently the owner is pretty careless about his dog (at least he was this time) & lives in Seathwaite.
I may go round next time and let him know what chaos & additional danger he caused by his neglect...
Totally thoughtless it seems.
Great to meet you today, even in such circumstances Will - thanks for your initial help too man - would love to see those pics ^^
The dog is great thanks. HE and his kennel mate is well loved and looked after in Seathwaite by my NON FARMER mate. If anyone here would like to give him some tips on animal husbandry get yourselves down to Seathwaite farm. He'd love to hear in person exactly what you have to say. He won't be hard to find, he'll be the angry one ;)
Much love and good conditions
Anyway he seems to be quite good at F***ing things up where his dogs are concerned if that is what you mean by animal husbandry?
I've known him and the dogs for years and they are well cared for and looked after. How long have you known them?
I witnessed the farmer literally throw one of the dogs back down the gully, and watched the dog slide helplessly a good 200m (thankfully no one was coming up) and somehow the dog walked away unscathed. I soloed past the farmer (a very angry man) and hoped the other dog would be ok. Glad you guys managed to help the other dog. Things could have been very serious if one of the dogs had fallen onto a climber below. The owner needs to have a word with himself. Idiot!
Well, whatever you try to say to defend this guy's actions he is obviously a callous nitwit and doesn't realise the danger & disgust he has engendered by his careless actions.
Not only that he could be in a lot of trouble with the RSPCA if any of us many witnesses were to report his & his partner's behaviour at this point, so he'd better watch himself more than we need worry in the slightest.
Your childish mention of his 'anger' are both potentially threatening (sarcastic haha - our army is bigger than yours) & indefensible.
We would be happy to chat to him about animal care since he doesnt seem to show any.
I for one am pleased not only to hear that the dogs are now well & unharmed (although probably also quite traumatized) by their ordeal, & would love to hear exactly what the explanations/excuses of these 'men' are..?
Clearly dangerous fools imho.
Great climb though and an amazing topping out with a sunset over Scafell Pike :-)
I don't judge this man in any other way, only his 'mistake(s)' (as you put it) yesterday[now] & his subsequent actions, most of which I saw or heard first-hand.
The majority of what you have written above is more of a character defence, and I can appreciate that as I don't wish to label this guy (or his partner) either, but their actions today were indefensible and your writing sounds more like trying to make excuses for them, for a sequence of bad choices that they made & are not morally defensible.
So please cut the obequious bull-crap.
Foresight & experience would make most thoughtful mountaineers I know act differently but I can also appreciate that people make mistakes, so I won't go into as much detail.
I am not out to ethically crucify these guys at all, but today they proved they have much to learn about respecting the lives of others and their working animals/pets, not to mention some things about compassion for living creatures, caution, consideration & (near-)cruelty.
They were both clearly terrified (the bitch was whimpering loudly & was very glad for all our help) & I was the guy that was put in the position of being forced to be lower with the dog [there was really no other way], putting my own life in increased danger, in order to save the life of this poor scared living thing, put there by the foolish actions of these people, whoever or whatever kind of people they may be anyway (which is in certain respects irrelevant).
My only wish is that these men (or more appropriately goons) realise the danger they made to the lives of both helpless dogs, us other climbers, and potentially themselves in their quite thoughtless actions (or inactions), simply in order that they learn to be more careful & understanding next time & keep the dogs out of harm's way better than they demonstrated today: ie less selfish for the day out.
They could so easily have discourgaed or possibly prevented the two dogs from coming up after them, though we struggle to see how they got as far as the amphitheatre without assistance in this case!
I hope you can feed this back to them suitably &/or tell them to 'go figure'...
All the best to you for trying to help shed some side-light on the day's chaos/adventure though.
Incidentally there is an "escape" out right at that junction on Central Gully, where you can walk off.
I can confirm everything Matilda has said about the dogs and their owner. One of the dogs ( which are both male ) is the father of my dog. They are awesome mountain dogs and their owner is deeply devoted to them - as a pack leader not as a dog owner that most of us are. They come from working stock and are treated as such. They know exactly where they are in the 'pecking order' and have the kind of life that most dogs dream of. Unfortunately this hasn't passed down to my dog who is a lazy fat lump ;0)
However i'd like to know how he ended up supposedly chucking one down a gulley. As you say not just the risk to the dogs but there is the risk to people in the gully too.
As Matilda says there are 2 sides to a story and what people saw/think they saw.
I don't know what happened but would be very surprised if he did something cruel or to hurt them on purpose.
Oh dear, Oh dear!
What a sad exchange of posts.
Some people do a good turn and rescue a frightened dog, and it all deteriorates into a mud slingling match!
Can't all those concerned step back a bit and just be thankful that there are climbers out there who are prepared to help a distressed animal?
The rest is frankly irrelevent.
I'm also a mountaineering instructor. So i know that throwing something down a gully that i can't see down on a busy day is a very dangerous thing to do. Whether its a rock or a dog, its the same result if it happens to hit a climber below.
So you as a mountaineering instructor should know better!
a furthur musing. i know a couple of the farmers down the valley very well. i d go so far as saying one of them is one of my best friends. thier attiude to the dogs they work with is somewhat short of "love", i reckon my friend likes the dogs slightly more than my stihl saw but a lot less than my big battery drill, which he would happily re home. thats not to say the farm dogs are not well looked after. the two dogs in question are certainly cared for a whole lot more, and almost certainly have better lives than both the farm dogs and most pet dogs.
"i know that throwing something down a gully that i can't see down"
whoaaa there trigger......
It doesn't matter if what was done was right or wrong, surely that should have been discussed with all involved at the time? What turns my stomach is the flaming people give others here (not just this thread but others).
If you were there, great, chat about it with your mates down the pub. Posting it on a forum just allows others who weren't there to make judgements about someone they have never met and a place they may never have even been.
God forbid any of us make a mistake and get seen by another forum member! You know the funny thing is that a lot of folk don't talk when actually out on the hills. Now I know why, they're recording everything they see to memory so they can recall it later on the forum!
If anyone helps me out in the hills one day, I'd buy them a pint. I wouldn't expect to read about it on UKC!
Things can't have so bad if you had time/energy to take photos. Or was it the excitement of "hey, wait until UKC sees this" that gave you a boost?
I do not know the dogs or the owner and am not defending animal cruelty or irresponsible behaviour. I am defending our right to make a mistake or misjudge a situation, or help others who have, without the "fear" of it becoming tabloid news!
I am sick of reading these sorts of threads to be honest. Have we lost sight of what a forum should be? A place to share knowledge and learning. You learn something from the forum, in return you give advice which others can learn from.
I have learned nothing from this thread except how disappointing the pack mentality of the forum can be :(
> farsical story
The dogs are very much part of a mountain day out. 1 good dog is worth 2 instructors when keeping groups of kids occupied :0)
I think the distinction is being made that these are not family pets. They are both from working stock. A very different type of dog, and life, to the fat farting creatures most of us have asleep in front of the fire.
Don't be too disheartened.
Some people did a nice thing - although i agree with you about the 'need' to make it public.
4 people have come on to defend someone they know - who isn't even a user of this forum - against allegations he is cruel to his dogs and dangerous in the mountains. That's also nice.
I don't think i'd get that many people to back me up :0(
> "i know that throwing something down a gully that i can't see down"
> whoaaa there trigger......
shows that 2 people with a massive amount of experience ( Dave Birkett and Paddy Cave ) can have 2 totally different opinions when looking at the same thing, and the damage that can be done by sticking it on the internet where it gains a life of it's own.
The winter thread was interesting as it sat there for over 10 hrs without anyone criticising it until Dave B put his piece on. Then all hell broke loose with everyone slagging Paddy off until Paddy replied in a measured way, with another witness, and he believes Dave could not have even seen the start from where he was and all the armchair pundits suddenly shut up.
Oops ! Sorry.
I thought you were calling the story of the dogs being OK cos they are working dogs farcical.
Please don't post personal details or copies of emails onto this thread.
I'm glad to hear the dog is okay. I just wanted to say sorry if I offended anyone but I feel that my initial post was factual and not judgemental against anyone. I did not criticise anyone and was only posting about a curious incident, after all it isn't everyday I come across a dog on a route!
I'm glad to hear that the dog is okay and I'm sorry that the forum has turned into a mud slinging contest.
1 - dogs left loose can roam about and end up in difficulties so tie 'em up
2 - if your dogs end up somewhere and are stuck - it is your responsibility to sort em out not let others do it for you while you finish your route
3 - dogs loose in gullies are a danger to climbers below and a grade 2/3 (Central) climb isn't the same as a grade 1 (Custs) steep walk where a dog is basically able to plod up and down easily
4 - when someone helps you (or your dogs) out you should be grateful
5 - whatever your qualification that doesn't excuse you acting recklessly and using your badge to effectively say "don't you know who I am"
Just accept that this shouldn't have happened, all learn from it and not let it happen again - oh and if you do make mistakes, as we all do, don't use your name, qualification or anything else to get off the hook
1.some dogs are a pain in the bum at the crag. some are not.
2.what for some dogs would be stuck for others would not.
3. you obviously know the route well then ?
4. if in fact you needed any help.
5. completely made up in relation to this story as told on here so far, so cant think of a response.
Too late sorry - I didn't realize that that might be against the rules is it ?
[I am not afraid to stand by my words & principles on this forum anyway...]
I have not copied any email - (though I did respond similarly) - only edited it down to this, my own response, after that line was crossed by another:
I don't think there is any problem about what information of my own I choose to make public - this is my choice to make.
[Yes that's me having fun helping the younger dog out near the bottom of the first steep section...indeed she looks quite comfortable :o]
1 - I know - that's not what I said
2 - yes - talk about stating the bleedin obvious
3 - yes - did Custs and Central yesterday
4 - are you saying the dog/s didn't need help - look at the photo
5 - eh?
Thanks, but don't worry or waste your time with such idiots, whether they are sticking their noses in or were there - the facts are the same...
Cheers and well done for a job well done.
I was up great end yesters although not when the incident took place but was 2 or 3 hours behind it by the sounds of it. Obviously I'm not going to comment directly as I wasn't there. I do know that dogs can get into some crazy places and they are far more adept and moving over grade I/II gullies that we are when conditions are right and yesterday they were spot on. Dogs are born with 2 pairs of crampons pre-fitted after all.
I was labeled 'cruel' amongst other things by the ex-wife and some friends as I made my dog sleep in the shed <shed prepared for a dog that is> The thing was though my spaniel came from working stock and couldn't be allowed to weaken during his adolecent years. Pressure from the ex-wife won over with her bringing him inside while I was out working and giving him cuddles and chocolates and he never made it into a working dog, he's an overwight unfit piss machine now :-( anyway, what I'm trying to say is that working dogs are at one with their masters in most cases with the master knowing the dogs ability, the master has to know this to get the best from the dog and in these man/beast partnerships the dog needs a firm master and to be able to trust his/her master implicently, thats how the partnership works and often the dog/master team has a far far closer, understanding and loving bond than pets/owners can ever dream of.
In balance I'd have been rather concerned by having a dog coming down a gully towards me where not only would I have been at risk of being knocked off and with generally sparce gear on winter routes, would have gone a fairly long way too, also I'd have been 'armed' with all manner of spiky stuff and dog, partner or myself could well have been injured that way.
It was stonking weather and conditions on great end last night so presumably the daytime would have been just as good, it was bound to be busy and all climbing teams have their own adgenda, crossover of peoples sensibilities are more likely to happen on days like these. Lets drop it for the sake of everyones sanity, put it down to one of them crazy days out, nobody was hurt, everyone got a route or two in, everyone got something to look at and perhaps learn from. The end!
Not sure why my emails got taken off, but after this I'm away from this age of "bullying online" so I'll post them again and that's me!!
In response to the other side of this story:
I am perturbed that I have to even defend this situation, and utterly
annoyed that you had to write about it when there's more important things
to do, but someone has to explain:
Although I was not present at this "dog rescue" I would like to add the
following to these emails:
The dog owner is not a farmer, he is one of Cumbria's best climbers and has
had many, many years of varied, expert mountain experience. He has his own
mountain adventure business, which was the first of its kind some years
ago, before all the others joined!
So you may be saying why let his dog fall? Let me begin to give you a
bigger picture, which everything has. I might add that people are either
too unintelligent to realise this fact or they have decided to see things
the way they want to see them, possibly for their own self gratification:
These dogs go out with him every single day. One is Seven and one is two
years of age and they are mountain dogs. They are working dogs. They are
incredible in the hills.
This is about understanding that what you see may not be what you think it
to be or judge it to be. Why is it when someone is angry nowadays or makes
a mistake, they are suddenly the bad guy. I prefer someone who is like this
man, who knows instantly how to react to a situation and a man who is loyal
and trust worthy in the mountains, especially compared to do gooders that
appear to be doing the right thing, who justify that to themselves, but
instead complicating a situation and making it worse.
I was out with this particular man last week up Custs gulley and the dogs
did fine. They are loyal and dedicated and most importantly, love the
mountains. I have been on many trips staying in bothies and tents with
these dogs and said owner for days on end in the Highlands of Scotland. He
is kind to them, but does not make a fuss with these dogs. They are the
best behaved and most agile dogs I have ever known. This man is the most
loyal and loving dog owner I have met. He is also someone I trust utterly
to be with out in the hills. And so as you know, I have been walking and
mountaineering since I was young and I am now 35 and I have met some,
sorry, wankers on the hill, and he is certainly not one of them.
I have also had to hoist these dogs over crags and you just have to go for
it. You have to be quick and think off your feet. This man made a mistake
today with one dog, yes, he missed the point where he thought the dog would
land, as the dog was getting in the way because the dog likes chasing ice
and having fun!!! He's a dog!
This story is about other people coming in on a snippet of a day with their
own misguided perceptions of what is potentially dangerous. And
furthermore, a day where things could have been less complicated if people
trusted others and let them sort things out for themselves.
Also do people really only want to look for small windows of evidence in
this life and completely judge a whole person's character on this?
Did they not realise that this man could have been 'angry' just for a
moment because his dog went somewhere he was told not to go for just one
time out of days and days of perfect and amazing dog mountain undertakings
Have they not thought that his anger could be because he was worried for
the dog, himself and his climbing partner? Did you not think that he simply
made a mistake? The other dog, and I should know, because I go out in the
mountains with these dogs all the time, was perfectly capable, especially
if you leave him be (and I have had to learn this, as he can be
deceiving!). He can look after himself if he is left alone. He did so on
Custs gulley with me only the other day.
5 to 6 days a week, these dogs are helpful, trustworthy, and work well with
said man and his customers.
The dogs help the customers' self esteem and motivation when they could
otherwise be flagging or tired out in the hills. These dogs spark enjoyment
and fun in people when they are in the mountains. They are a good source of
company and they are, most importantly, working dogs. If they did not do
this, they would have a life, like many dogs do, indoors, no company or
stimulation. This man has been dedicated to his dogs from the day he got
them and continues to give up things for them. Do not judge him and his
dogs on one situation. Thank you. M. Brown, composer and hill walker.
Have things really changed in a ten year generation gap about how to go about a situation that one is not happy with?
When someone has a problem with another's actions , they would go and talk and communicate to that person before bitching and grassing to others behind a computer screen.
So defer telling the story as a self righteous act to appear noble and caring to dogs and think about what actually happens in the mountains, if you go out all the time and go have a chat with this man, you know where he lives and he may be able to talk to you about things. The other day was so busy, that people were under each others' feet and soloing past people in front, well, anyway…
Like I said people only see what they think they want to see.
The other dog is a male and has a habit of being vocal and sounding like he is crying when excited or psyched because he is mainly huntaway with a bit of collie and terrier in him and the huntaways were trained to bark, it's in his blood. And 'terrified' is never a word to describe these dogs, if you knew them like I do…can't believe how much you all bitch.
1. you said "tie em up" . i said "not all dogs need chaining up".
2. you are absolutely convinced, 100%, without question, that this dog was stuck ? . i m not.
3.so you ve said that grade 1 ground is a suitable place for a dog and that you did these routes yesterday. up to the point that the dog was found this route is grade 1 in good conditions. if you dont think so sorry.
4. yes. i see a photo of a happy dog . and a bloke.
5. show me where in thread anybody says the guy in question says "i m an instructor i claim my get out of jail card " or whatever. you ve jsut taken a few snippets, chosen to look at them in the way you see fit and run with them to make him appear an arse. he isnt. i refuse to believe he did anything along those lines. i accept he may have got angry at "something" . i suppose you are mr perfect.
please dont use the word bleedin . i dont like it.
He isn't dangerous. Get to know him first.
Btw I saw the dogs today. Both were laid out infront of the Skafell Hotels fire. Chip (the pup in the photo) made lots of noise in there too. Got buck loads of attention from the tourists. He is smart like that. You won't be the first to be outsmarted by a dog.
I can see it really isn't worth me adding much more to this farce so this will be my final word as the person who knows they acted appropriately.
What happened is basically only just excusable under the most far-fetched of circumstances.
#It's really quite simple#
The dogs should not have been in that vulnerable position in the first place, despite whatever experience & mountain exposure they may have, under the conditions on the day - this is thoroughly irresponsible - never mind so much what then happened afterwards.
We could argue over the details ad-infinitum, but there were many points at which things could have been done better by those concerned (or clearly all too unconcerned) so as not to endanger the dogs or other hill-users.
Those who were idiots can't admit it or make paltry excuses.
Those who think they know form the sidelines what was required in this situation should technically 'stfu' from their second-hand & after-the-events viewpoints.
Those who attempt to defend extremely questionable actions (neverminding the character*s* of those involved) by sideways means are clearly childish, blinkered, and cannot (and should not) comment too much anyway.
Thos of us actually involved made certain decisions on the day and I for one at least can vouch that the dog was extremely happy to be helped after having been left behind to fend for itself, when unquestionably out of it's depth, as even more clearly demonstrated by the more senior dog having already fallen or been pushed!
This whole thread has degenerated due to people's egos, agendas, and various idiocy, not to mention lack of clear thinking.
What some people did on the day was very much out of order, what others then had to deal with (then becoming part of their day also) was not just one of those things - I have never had to rescue a dog under such circumstances in over 20 years of climbing - and if *even* just some things can be admitted we can all actually learn a lot from this & move on...
I had no qualms (nor any great difficulty, only a half-hour of inconvenience) about rescuing the little canine [who categorically could not have gotten out alone]; it was an easy decision to make.
Thanks for no gratitude or explanation whatsoever from the owner - instead this person hides and lets others do his explaining.
I find it hard to believe how murky this situation has been made to appear when, as I have stated, it is really quite clear & simple.
Perhaps some people could raise there awareness & clarity, and work on their (not so common) common sense.
It doesn't take a genius to work out the true morality of the day!
Whoever needs to go figure should f***ing well try to do so.
I will say no more.
The only reason BOTH dogs were at home safely by the fire in the Scafell is because I acted to ensure they both got home safely.
You were all lucky those in my party didn't join you there for a drink, which we almost did, as the owner would have gotten a lot of flak from just about everyone in the gully on that day, even if we would have also been glad to see them both warm+safe.
In addition to my other long message - you have no idea what you are talking about, as you were not there - you are simply just defending someone who you respect & have an affiliation with.
It's understandable yet totally transparent.
If i have time to ring this person I might well do so if I can find the time or be bothered.
Look at yourself & their actions, not some projection you have about the situation you know so little directly about.
You obviously needed to be told this, as I care less for my popularity than what was morally right & just in the moment.
Perhaps we shall speak again, but forget about trying to defend these guy for now, as you haven't a leg to stand on.
After that he should be banned from caring for any animal !
Fair enough the dog, like my dog, would probably have the time of its life and not know any different, but you are responsible for your dog, and the damage it can cause. What if these kind blokes that rescued it, got hurt? Or the OP soloing got hurt? (or worse)
Just because a dog is from 'working stock' does not make it tougher or more resilliant, surely that would mean the whole nature vs nurture arguement does not exist? My spaniel is from working stock, and works, he is without a doubt the hardest little shite ive ever met, does that make it ok to be harsh to him? No! Being harsh to a so called 'working dog' will do no good in training it, and do no good for the dog!
I dont care if he is a mountain instructor, he sounds like a right tw*t, who shouldnt own dogs, if you cant control them, why the feck is he taking them into mountains at winter?!? And there is me thinking mountain instructors are responsible people!?
Fair play to all the people that helped rescue the dog, and glad there are people like you all about if god forbid my dog got lost! Its nice to know some people have morals and look out for each other!
What a happy-to-read & refreshingly sensible appraisal.
[I broke my avowed silence to thank you :o]
It would be nice to see the bloke apologising and buying you all a pint for your efforts, instead of defending himself.
We all f*ck up, many times, but when your f*ck ups cause other people concerns and saftey issues, the manly thing to do is not act like a wanker and hold your hand up, and thank those that brought your mate back to you!
Although personally he would not of got his dog back if i was there, by the sounds of it he doesnt deserve it!
Again well done to all you guys!
that's not what I gather happened. But like you, I wasn't there, so can't make any sort of judgement at all (other than that there are 2 sides to every story).
I think if you ever see something that straightaway makes you think I must report this....then you probably should do. Otherwise the later you leave it the more doubts you must have about exactly the context of what you saw and reporting it may not be for the best.
Like others have said, I was not there either and there will be two sides to the story.
Well done to the OP for helping though, however this particular thread has deteriorated.
> Just because a dog is from 'working stock' does not make it tougher or more resilliant,
yes it does, ask any shepherd, breeding is all important.
If so, you have answered a question no body has yet been abled to answer! Im not saying breeding isnt important, but its not the only factor, you have a well bred dog, and never expose it to any of these mighty hard times 'shepherd' dogs encounter in the uk (????) it does automatically mean it will do fine. Ive seen many well bred trialing dogs, put with the wrong owner that are shit scared of cover and wont swim.
Like i said, congrats to you, you have done what no body has been able to do yet, answer the nature vs nurture debate!
Some sense at last.
All's well now anyways fortunately (and through the right actions of others of us), though one particular owner did not apolgize, nor thank anyone, though he did offer a backtrack (on the phone no less) that they were going to come back for the younger dog (which I don't really buy as they would not have allowed the dog up so far in the first place or have made an effort to go back to help it down upon realizing it was stuck - which they didn't)...he couldn't admit nor even see his own temporary heartlessness / seflishness in the aforementaioned crap decisions.
Everyone will make their own judgements anyhow - make of it what you will - but I know where I am on the ethics of that day at least!
Thanks to all who got involved with a good intention &/or the right motivation either on the day or in this thread.
Goodnight All ^^
glad to be of assistance!
We've got a border collie as a pet, a failed sheep dog, afraid of tups but hard as nails away from sheep. Bred for the hill and very competent in that environment.
Those dogs should never have been there,they were a danger to themselves
and to others.
I was soloing up the first riser when one of the dogs appeared from
nowhere and fell onto my lap very nearly dislodging me from the ice. Not to
mention that a falling dog could easily have killed a climber below.
I have dealt with and seen the results of climbing accidents in my career
in the NHS.the results are not pretty. The dog owners actions were totally
The dog in the photo was obviously well trained and comfortable with its surroundings otherwise it wouldn't have let you pick it up and carry it. It probably thought it was helping out with a training exercise. My collie follows me into similar locations. It often gets frustrated when it can't get up the steep ground and "cries". It then goes back down and finds an easier way up.
The only problem I see here is that it was too busy and people interfered. The dog would have either waited to be called from below and then thrown itself back down or got bored and gone down and around to find the boss. If it really had decided that it couldn't get back down the owner would have nipped back up for it.
The barking / crying can get a bit annoying for other hill users though.
What a gorgeous looking dog! Well done on the rescue.
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