/ The Bowline Connoisseurs Thread

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jwa - on 14 Dec 2012
There is to be no hating on the bowline in this thread. It is for those who aren't afraid of the deadly bowline to talk about the merits of the particular deadly bowline that they use.

Personally I use a standard bowline as shown in Rock Climbing by Libby Peter, the animated knots website or this recent link from the BMC: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/check-that-bowline

The only difference is that I thread upwards so that the tail after the stopper can be neatly tucked down my waist loop.

What variation do you use and why? Personally I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

I was curious about how deadly the deadly bowline was so tied in to a short length without a stopper knot and loaded it in a similar way to what might happen when lowering off a climb indoors (where these accidents seem to happen). The knot just tightened up on itself and didn't seem to be going anywhere. I tried again with a loosely tied knot and a very short tail but the same thing happened. The only way I could get the deadly bowline to fail was by repeatedly loading and significantly unloading it, but this took about half a dozen repetitions. By significantly unloading it I mean almost pushing the rope back into the knot from above. I would always put a stopper on my bowline but my thinking is that maybe people that have had accidents have tied something spectacularly wrong rather than there being an inherent danger of tying a bowline without a stopper. Any thoughts on that?
a lakeland climber on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I do the variation with the double loop, I think this is called the Yosemite Bowline. At least one stopper knot depending on the length of tail.

ALC
Trangia - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I think you are probably right.

I'm a great fan of the bowline. Easy to tie, instantly recogniable, easy to see and check, very flexible for precise tying off a length of rope, and easy to undo after loading.

It's not the knot's fault that people miss tie it.
andic - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I like to use a yosemite bowline, where the tail is threaded back through and the stopper then sits above the knot not on the rope loop.

My partner ties it with two "rabbit holes"
willworkforfoodjnr - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to andic: Yup, yosemite bowline with the stopper on top here too :)
foxjerk - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: I can't really get my head round this either. I don't personally use the bowline, but for someone so experienced to miss-tie this knot is scary. I'm not against its use but it does make me think you should just use the fig 8. Better to spend a few minutes trying it untie it after loading than die / get hurt
In reply to jwa:

> Personally I use a standard bowline as shown in Rock Climbing by Libby Peter, the animated knots website or this recent link from the BMC: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/check-that-bowline
>

I do that.
jon on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to foxjerk:
> (In reply to jwa)
> but for someone so experienced to miss-tie this knot is scary. I'm not against its use but it does make me think you should just use the fig 8. Better to spend a few minutes trying it untie it after loading than die / get hurt

I think you miss the point. He didn't mis-tie the knot - he didn't finish it. The same thing could happen with any knot that we use to tie in with - it's not exclusive to a bowline.

deepsoup - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
> Personally I use a standard bowline as shown in Rock Climbing by Libby Peter, the animated knots website or this recent link from the BMC: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/check-that-bowline
>
> The only difference is that I thread upwards so that the tail after the stopper can be neatly tucked down my waist loop.
>
> What variation do you use and why?

Same as you, for the same reason.
AlanLittle - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

For single ropes I use the DAV-recommended rethreaded bowline as do the majority of sport climbers over here. Utterly foolproof, easier and faster to tie than a rethreaded eight.

Still use eights for double ropes on multi-pitch where I'm not planning to be tying in & untying every few minutes.
jwa - on 14 Dec 2012
Why do people like the Yosemite variation? And what's an Edwards?

Some people I climb with tie their bowlines as a slipknot first, like in this link http://jimknowsknots.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/bowline-made-from-slip-knot.html
Again, why make things more complicated than they need to be?
Ewan_B on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I tie on with the 'slip-knot' method. It's really easy to get the knot exactly where you want it to be, easy to tie with gloves or mitts on and you go from having no knot to having a fully tied bowline in just a moment so you can't forget to finish it.

There's a photo series on UKC somewhere that Alan took showing how to tie an Edward's Bowline. It's basically a standard bowline with a figure 8 finish tied on top.
foxjerk - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jon: so no stopper knot? thats as good as a miss tie to me, especially in someone who should know the need for one
In reply to jwa:

In a Punch and Judy voice "that's the way to do it".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP-jB5Vsv0s


Chris
jwa - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Gotta love the vigorous shake taste at the end.
jon on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to foxjerk:
> (In reply to jon) so no stopper knot? thats as good as a miss tie to me, especially in someone who should know the need for one

This what JL said (from Mick's post):

> Long says that he ties in with a double bowline, but this time, distracted and tired after a long day of work, he didn't finish the knot. "I made the two bowline loops," he says, "and threaded the rope through my harness, but I didn't bring the rabbit out of the hole and around the tree."

That's not forgetting to tie a stopper. That's not finishing the knot, in this case due to being distracted.






neilh - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
Bowline with stopper.

It's brilliant for untying in difficult situations.
jwa - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jon:
> That's not forgetting to tie a stopper. That's not finishing the knot, in this case due to being distracted.

Any thoughts on how important the stopper is going on the testing I mentioned in my original post? Everyone seems to get hung up on the stopper. Is it because a bowline can revert to a slipknot?

cb294 - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to AlanLittle:
> (In reply to jwa)
>
> For single ropes I use the DAV-recommended rethreaded bowline as do the majority of sport climbers over here. Utterly foolproof, easier and faster to tie than a rethreaded eight.
>
> Still use eights for double ropes on multi-pitch where I'm not planning to be tying in & untying every few minutes.



Same here, and still alive.

CB
GridNorth - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: I do use a bowline on sport and never had a problem, indeed I have used it for over 40 years but I did experience one not cinching very tight on itself with one specific rope that did cause me to think twice about it being appropriate at that time. The rope was that "springy" that it looked as though it wanted to undo itself.
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deepstar - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: I learnt to tie a bowline over 40 years ago in the school caving club,we even learnt to tie it with our eyes shut and I have never had one let me down so I`ll stick with a simple bowline thanks.
beardy mike - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to kneejerk:
> (In reply to jon) so no stopper knot? thats as good as a miss tie to me, especially in someone who should know the need for one

There you go. Fixed that for you.
foxwood on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

As in your tests, all the knot sources (eg Grog, Ashley) identify that the bowline can work itself loose/undone with repeated loading/unloading.

Adding a DOUBLE stopper knot made with the tail prevents this provided it is dressed up tight to the bowline.
willworkforfoodjnr - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
> Why do people like the Yosemite variation?

Its secure even without the stopper, so if that comes undone it's no big deal. Also the stopper is at the top which makes it easier to visually check mid route should you want to, and keeps the rope end from poking mah balls...
Hephaestus - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: Edwards bowline - my knot of choice. Tie the Yosemite variation by rethreading, but continue to rethread the knot completely. You end up with something that looks at first sight like a fig of 8, but the dead end of the rope is by your harness.

Advantages: very secure, no need for stopper knot, easy to check it is tied correctly, easy to undo
disadvantages: a bit tricky on first acquaintance

It also looks lovely (There is a theory of the mobius: imagine a slip in the fabric of time, where time becomes a loop. Then imagine that as a knot).
andi turner - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: I like them for tying off around trees and stuff as part of my anchors. I wouldn't tie on with one though, heard too many horror stories.
foxjerk - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to mike kant: cheers!!;)
foxjerk - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jon: sorry hadn't read the article (should have before commenting, i know), didn't realise he actually didn't finish the knot.
beardy mike - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to kneejerk: You're welcome.
Northern Climber on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: Yosemite finish for me
Bernard Shakey - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jaw:

I remember tying a bowline around a thread to use as a belay on a caving course about 20 yrs ago, I tied a stopper knot but it wasn't snug against the main knot, the instructor at the time (old school) gave me a right bollocking, mainly as I should have known better for being a climber. I still prefer it for tying in on indoor / sport routes, far easier to undo than a figure of 8, and if done with a stopper knot perfectly safe
Rick Graham on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

Standard bowline and stopper for me.

Overhand or clove hitch to belays.
Rick Graham on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Rick Graham:

Loose double back loop on bowline for car towing. Can untie easily even when old climbing rope is close to its breaking strain. Magic
jimtitt - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
Rethreaded bowline like most (sport)climbers in Germany except with thin twin/halves and then 8īs.
Nick Russell on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

Yosemite finish without a stopper knot - it's secure without one.

The only exception is at the indoor wall where they don't allow a bowline without a stopper. In that case I just use a stopper without the Yosemite finish
ian Ll-J - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jon:
> The same thing could happen with any knot that we use to tie in with - it's not exclusive to a bowline.

Not entirely true, incompletely tied fig of 8's have been tested and still work..obviously depends on how incomplete the re threading is..Try it and see for yourself, then do the same with a bowline. A no brainer in my opinion...

Bruce Hooker - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to ian Ll-J:

> A no brainer in my opinion...

Couldn't have put it better myself :-)

Don't forget a couple of half-hitches though.
jwa - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to ian Ll-J:
> Not entirely true, incompletely tied fig of 8's have been tested and still work..obviously depends on how incomplete the re threading is..Try it and see for yourself, then do the same with a bowline. A no brainer in my opinion...

I think everyone needs to go back and read what John Long says he did and then copy what he did at home at ground level. He basically stuck the rope through his harness and then climbed. Same as what happened to Lynn Hill except she'd tied a figure of eight then poked the loose end through her harness. Doesn't matter what type of knot you use, if you don't actually tie it to your harness in any way you're going to be in trouble.

john arran - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

Yes but ...

Surely if just one person were to die as a result of failing to tie a fig. 8 instead of failing to tie a bowline then surely it's been worth all the aggravation of hundreds of thousands of climbers wrestling with stuck knots for minutes on end after lobbing.

It's a no-brainer.

Think of the children.
Chris.Allott - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
sign me up as a 100% Bowline user...
a most convenient knot I've used - usually with a single stopper - normally on two half ropes- without mishap- for over 40 years. It's compact (try a couple of F8's with half ropes!)and easily untied when you need to.
I normally tie one handed....occasionally left instead of right... just to make sure I can do it with a broken body.. in case I need to be rescued after a nasty fall ( at Windgather??)..and it makes you think about what you are doing!
I even used to use the bowline without a harness for toproping ..some time ago!
In 40 odd years of climbing I've only ever seen one "knot problem" ( other than trying to untie a F8 that had been loaded) and that was a failure to tie on - at all, due to distraction, rope though loops, just not tied on- knot type irrelevant.
I also use a Clove hitch for belays...which is a) fast b) adjustable in a safe and arresting state while being adjusted..and easy to get right for loading multiple unequal belays...
I find myself not popular with instuctors!
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steveshaking - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to john arran: end bound double bowline with a Yosemite finish, see paci site, why, because its there, its secure/stable, has a right look, easy to untie.
Bruce Hooker - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to john arran:

> Think of the children.

Try reading what jwa posted just above:

> Same as what happened to Lynn Hill except she'd tied a figure of eight then poked the loose end through her harness.

So she used a figure of eight without actually finishing the knot, by you logic then it would be a "no brainer" to avoid figure of eight knots too. What do you propose to use to tie in with then?
Static - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

Double loop bowline rethreaded (Yosemite finish) with stopper knot for me. Bombproof every time.
john arran - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I think you missed my invisible exasperation smiley ;-)
a lakeland climber on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to foxjerk)
> [...]
>
> I think you miss the point. He didn't mis-tie the knot - he didn't finish it. The same thing could happen with any knot that we use to tie in with - it's not exclusive to a bowline.

In this instance a Bowline is safer than a rethreaded fo8. If you were to do the first part of the fo8, thread the rope through the harness but don't rethread it then a quick glance down shows a knot. With a Bowline, form the loop, thread the rope through the harness but don't complete the knot then it all just falls apart and when you look down even briefly there's just the rope.

ALC

cuppatea on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

My vote is for the bowline, with double fisherman style stopper.


The most important thing to remember is that if you don't actually tie the knot it doesn't make the smallest bit of difference which knot it was that you didn't tie, or the perceived pros and cons of that imaginary, and invisible knot.
Bulls Crack - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Trangia:
> (In reply to jwa)
>
> I think you are probably right.
>
> I'm a great fan of the bowline. Easy to tie, instantly recognisable,

But..occasionally not..or rather not looked at.
Bruce Hooker - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to john arran:

Sorry, not easy to guess, quite a few have been saying much the same seriously.
Dave Perry - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: §

Bowline if great.

But why, oh why, doesn't anyone tie it the proper way? - which is almost one handed - and is the way it was originally done by sailors (I'm an ex one!). Its faster and easier.

The rabbit and tree method is for boy scouts and needs two hands!!

That said I can't find a video on the net of it being tied one handed anywhere.!! I'll have to get Mrs P to do a short dvd of me tying it.

Bulls Crack - on 14 Dec 2012
In reply to Dave Perry:
> (In reply to jwa) §
>

>
> That said I can't find a video on the net of it being tied one handed anywhere.!! I'll have to get Mrs P to do a short dvd of me tying it.

Well, it's Friday night...feel free to compel your wife to video you giving yourself one-handed exercise!
I like climbing - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to Chris Craggs:
That's the way to do it !
steveshaking - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:
End bound single bowline with a Yosemite finish, because it looks right, very secure, easy to untie etc, see http://www.paci.com.au/downloads_public/knots/Bowlines_Analysis.pdf
dr evil - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
That is why you should not speak to or otherwise distract someone whilst they are tying into the rope
knudeNoggin - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
> (In reply to ian Ll-J)
> [...]
>
> I think everyone needs to go back and read what John Long says he did and then copy what he did at home at ground level. He basically stuck the rope through his harness and then climbed.

What he said he did doesn't really make sense : i.e., forming the double-turn of the main line AND THEN reeving the tail through the harness (which would have to be done with one hand, as those double turns need to be held to BE ... !) ?? So, I think that, yes, he essentially did not tie <anything>, but he's got an odd way of expressing that.

> Same as what happened to Lynn Hill except she'd tied a figure of eight then poked the loose end through her harness.

No, according to Lynn's book, she simply reeved the line into her harness and then was distracted from finishing her tie-in (aka starting & finishing her knot), and she intended to tie a bowline. [_Climbing Free_, p.4]

> Doesn't matter what type of knot you use, if you don't actually tie it to your harness in any way you're going to be in trouble.

Which points to the solution to these "failed bowline" problems being checking that a knot is tied, less than checking WHICH knot is tied. Though it must be emphasized --i.p., to these old "sailor" types who never backed up the bowline and think that that's fine (ditto for the caver)-- that IN SOME ROPES the bowline (without further securing, by extension or additional knot) WILL LOOSEN and can come untied. Your half-century of tied bowlines in other cordage in other circumstances does not guarantee future performance in different conditions, especially in different cordage. (The knot --even the "double" bowline-- will not even hold, in (bare, 12-strand) HMPE line : the rope just feeds out of the knot, collapsing the eye (on slow-pull loading)!!)


The "water bowline" --i.e., a bowlinesque tucking of the tail through a clove hitch base-- has merit in that the base structure, the clove hitch, resists loosening. Taking the tail through the harness a 2nd pass and reeving it up through this knot (in any of a variety of ways) will give redundancy, and the strangle knot (aka "half a dbl.fish.") finish can be put on right outside of the bowline's collar, out of the way, more easily tied & inspected as noted above.

There is a similar tact that can be taken with a fig.8 base knot, reeving the tail in-&-out of that in a simple "U" geometry similar to the "rabbit"'s path in the bowline, and then a 2nd pass made through the harness leading again to a simple finish; and this leaves the fig.8 much easier to untie, I think.

The end-bound dbl. bowline was designed to provide a bowline knot that could be made tight when unloaded (the problem being the loosening of the knot when slack), but in such a way that it didn't become overly tight on loading. The "end-binding" of wrapping the tail once around the coils of the dbl. knot achieves this, pretty well --one does need to set it pretty tightly, though! (Watch the knot when it's loaded and you'll see the loaded parts shrink in diameter and leave some gap in this end's binding, which should be filled up on relaxation.) It makes the knot a little harder to untie, but it's still pretty easy. (First, pull some main line through the collar; then use the tail & eye legs to pry open the coils.)


*kN*
Bruce Hooker - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:

Don't you think you may be going over the top a little in this post? It's only tying a simple knot, choice of two, after all?
lowersharpnose - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I use a bowline exactly like the picture. Simple bowline with stopper.

I don't know what a rabbit or hole is. I don't tie it that way.
Orgsm on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I use the standard bowline but finish off with a bowtie
Stone_donkey - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: Edwards bowline, as shown to me once by Lucy Creamer. If it's good enough for her it'll work for me :)
jwa - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to A Game of Chance:
> I use the standard bowline but finish off with a bowtie

And a tweed jacket and pipe?

rgold - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:
> (In reply to jwa)
> [...]
>
> What he said he did doesn't really make sense : i.e., forming the double-turn of the main line AND THEN reeving the tail through the harness (which would have to be done with one hand, as those double turns need to be held to BE ... !) ??
>

This is the way I tie my bowline too. The reason, which is admittedly arcane, is so as not to insert a double twist into the climbing rope. I originally found that, over time, this seemed to matter with some of my ropes that that tended to be kinky, and avoiding it became a habit for all tie-ins.

In order to keep from inserting the double twist into the climbing rope, you form the bowline double turn by making two coils with the free end of the rope, which is then threaded through the harness just as Long described. I've never had even the slightest problem holding on to those double turns while doing this, by the way.
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Paul Hy - on 15 Dec 2012
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to foxjerk)
> [...]
>
> I think you miss the point. He didn't mis-tie the knot - he didn't finish it. The same thing could happen with any knot that we use to tie in with - it's not exclusive to a bowline.

I'll agree with that, as happened couple of weeks ago at a sheffield wall.
knudeNoggin - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to knudeNoggin)
>
> Don't you think you may be going over the top a little in this post?

?! As opposed to how many threads with much the same remarks, amounting to, what?

> It's only tying a simple knot, choice of two, after all?

If that's your tally, you've been asleep at this knots tour. The choice is far greater than "two" even for the nominally dual options of "figure 8" & "bowline", all aspects considered. Elsewhere one can find recommendations for a variation of the overhand that can be seen to correspond to the offset water knot favored for abseiling (ring-loaded, it is a water knot / ring bend), which is simple, has good slack-security, and is fairly easily untied after a fall --cf. http://i1.tinypic.com/2z3z8ts.jpg . Beyond these, there are many other knots that could be employed here (but don't look in books for these (yet)).

*kN*
jon on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
> (but don't look in books for these (yet)).

Jeez knude, does that meaan what I think it means?




Mike H SNV - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
I did my first climb at Harrisons rocks in 1970 (Birch Tree Crack) with a bowline tied around the waist. Have used one safely ever since, though with a harness.

I know someone who tied a figure of 8 in the rope, threaded it through his harness and forgot to rethread the figure of 8. Lucky to get away with just a broken ankle! It's not just bowline users who make the occasional mistake.

mike
Andy Long - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to steveshaking:
Yes, the end-bound bowline with a yosemite finish is the corollary of the Edwards, which is a yosemite followed by an end-binding. Both are elegant solutions to the tie-on problem in having two internal locks.

Failure under load has never been an issue with climbing knots. Cross-loading is a red-herring except in the case of abseiling. The main issue is that climbing knots spend their ephemeral little lives being jiggled about in an un-loaded condition. Thus free ends will work their way back into the structure if not locked off.

In the case of a stopper knot, only one "tuck" needs to come out before you are left with a naked bowline. The same is true of the Yosemite. Both the knots mentioned above require two such. Plus the fact that the naked bowline is perfectly sound.

I also admire the so-called "double bowline" mentioned above - a re-threaded bowline-on-the-bight. A bit greedy on rope perhaps.

By the way, I was surprised and gratified to see my throw-away line in a previous thread about the bowline being a "connoisseur's knot" being taken up by others. We could form an Association of Bowline Connoisseurs, get badges made etc. Having been a punter all my life I've finally made my mark in the climbing world.

I can die happy, though not, I assure you, at the hands of a bowline.
jwa - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to Andy Long:
> By the way, I was surprised and gratified to see my throw-away line in a previous thread about the bowline being a "connoisseur's knot" being taken up by others.

Glad you like it.

knudeNoggin - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to jon:
> (In reply to knudeNoggin)
> [...]
>
> Jeez knude, does that meaan what I think it means?

??! It's a non-tricky sentence : what are you thinking it might mean?

(E.g., I *think* that you won't find "Edward's bowline" in books, nor the "end-bound double bowline"; via the Net, though, you can find both, but there was a time when that wasn't true (relatively recently) --the EBDB is ca. 2002, IIRC. And you can find things in books that are bad or even impossible (those take forever to tie :-).)

*kN*
knudeNoggin - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to Andy Long:
> Yes, the end-bound bowline with a yosemite finish is the corollary of the Edwards, which is a yosemite followed by an end-binding. Both are elegant solutions to the tie-on problem in having two internal locks.

Well, they are both what I call "extensions" to the bowline, in that they start with a bowline (or double bowline) and make further tucks in that knot. The Edward's extends the "Yosemite"'s tucking with one further (so I'd count it as TWO extra "locks"); the EBDB extends the Dbl.Bwl. The Edward's remains somewhat loose but resistant to further loosening --the 1-diameter turn of the Yosemite is resisted in stiff ropes. The EBDB was designed to be able to be set tight, but without getting further tightened on loading. (Its simple tail wrap works well for the Dbl.Bwl as it surrounds 3 strands, which trio make for a rounder object to bind; the same tail wrap around a mere (single) bowline is less sure, going around just two strands --that 1-diameter bending issue, again.)

> Plus the fact that the naked bowline is perfectly sound.

One needs to be careful about this : if the loosening that liberates the extra "lock" also (and likely so) loosens the bowline base, that loose knot can capsize upon loading into what might be called a pile-hitch noose, and at the least, see some bit of rope turned through the harness points hard (think : heat). I.e., it's not so simple as just losing the extension but still having a well-set bowline remaining!


*kN*
Bruce Hooker - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:

Never heard of KISS?
steveshaking - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to Andy Long: I used to use the Edwards bowline, I converted to the end bound single bowline with a Yosemite finish because it looks neat when tied correctly (as a fig 8 does), the Edwards never looks as neat. So there is a better visual check that thongs are correct. But yes, the properties of both are very similar.
steveshaking - on 16 Dec 2012
In reply to steveshaking: Things, not thongs, before I get banned for improper posting.
Andy Long - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:
When I say "two internal locks" I do in fact mean extras, after the knot.

Interesting point in the last paragraph. I will experiment.
Andy Long - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to steveshaking:
> (In reply to Andy Long) I used to use the Edwards bowline, I converted to the end bound single bowline with a Yosemite finish because it looks neat when tied correctly

I agree, it looks lovely.

Andy Long - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to knudeNoggin)
>
> Never heard of KISS?

Ah yes, but we are - connoisseurs!

knudeNoggin - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to knudeNoggin)
>
> Never heard of KISS?

Keep it Speciously Simple? (=Simplistic) --if you're referring to contrasts of this on-line chatter.

But, yes, re *knotting*, there's much to be said for KISS --somewhat akin to motivation of RISC architecture, doing simple things quickly vs. some complicated, per-task soluiton. I'd count the common bowline tied off with the strangle knot (aka "half-a-grapevine", "dbl.overhand") as in the spirit of KISS, contrasted with Edwards bwl. (& even EBDB, but that's pretty simple).
KISS for assured use under fatigue, for learning, for selling the idea.

But the solutions should come from eyes-open looking and testing, not rote recall of what someone said somewhere ... .

*kN*
steveshaking - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin: yes, I agree with the kiss issue as you analyze it. The paci sire is music to knot connoisseurs it that not only is there a massive number or bowline variants the analysis us good. For me kiss comes into play with the zeppelin knot, never can tie this knot at a hanging stance after a climb. Where as the overhand...
Andy Long - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:
> (In reply to Andy Long)
> [...]
>

>
> [...]
>
> One needs to be careful about this : if the loosening that liberates the extra "lock" also (and likely so) loosens the bowline base, that loose knot can capsize upon loading into what might be called a pile-hitch noose, and at the least, see some bit of rope turned through the harness points hard (think : heat). I.e., it's not so simple as just losing the extension but still having a well-set bowline remaining!
>
>
> *kN*

OK, had a look at that. A bowline that has worked sufficiently loose for the locking tucks to come out is then subjected to a fall. All that seems to happen is that the trapping loop tightens up with little movement of the rope around the harness strongpoints. Certainly negligible compared with the movement that must take place as the rope reorientates itself and pulls the strongpoints together during a normal leader-fall arrest.

On a more general point, I don't think knots like the Edwards, EDBD etc are particularly complicated. They just need a bit of practice. I actually think the re-threaded Fo8 is rather complicated. It's just that as the currently fashionable tie-on, people have given a great deal of thought to easy ways to teach it. Most people are knot-phobic and so, once having learned it, get lots of practice and don't want to change. That's OK as long as they don't go telling me that what I'm doing is dangerous when, as you'll have gathered, I've given a great deal of though to it.
Bruce Hooker - on 17 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I've tried to read the last few posts attentively but my mind goes all blank and my brain hurts after a few line... :-(

I'll stick to an ordinary bowline and a couple of half hitches if that's alright.
jon on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:
> (In reply to jon)
> Jeez knude (... )
>
> ??! It's a non-tricky sentence : what are you thinking it might mean?

Well it sounded like you were going to write a book.

Neil Williams - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

A regular one, tied one handed as it's the only way I've ever been bothered to learn how to do it (and it's dead quick, and I'm less likely to not tie part of it), with a stopper knot.

Does the job nicely, and unlike a Fig 8 is nice to untie when all 18 stone of me have fallen on it repeatedly.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I reckon when top-roping or clipping above you, the weight of the rope might push back into the knot as you describe. But I think indeed many of the accidents may have resulted from a partially tied (or in the case of the most recent one not tied at all, if I recall) knot.

I certainly always use a stopper on mine.

Neil
TimH - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: I use a bowline with stopper for indoor and sport climbing, as well as tying onto trees etc when rigging top ropes and abs. I sometimes use a Yosemite bowline so that my stopper ends up out of the way on top of the knot instead of inside the loop.

Personally I don't view it as being a complete knot when used without a stopper, due to how close it's 'finished' position is to it's 'running' position (how it is just before you finish tying it one-handed). Gives me that bit of protection against human error.

I am also very aware of the risks of splitting/crossloading a bowline (resulting in opening the knot up into it's running position). This is one reason I prefer a fig 8 for trad climbing because I tend to build my belays by clipping back to my rope loop from each anchor thus pulling the knot in different directions (ie me & belay device pulling forward and krab to anchors pulling back, so not a problem if you only use direct belays!). The other reason I switch to a fig 8 on trad is to take advantage of the extra shock absorption it provides when it tightens up.

Nice to have a positive thread on here for once!


Tim
cb294 - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to TimH:

The rethreaded, double bowline with a stopper is safe against crossloading, too.

The only disadvantage is its bulk, which is why I often use fig. 8s for tying into double ropes for mixed/winter climbing.

The bowline is also great for tying into the middle of a single rope for glacier travel. Just take a bight, tie a single bowline through your tie in loop using both strands in parallel, and secure the loop forming the end to your harness with a small screwgate carabiner.

I also pre-fix one short prusik sling just above the knot. This is my favourite method, as it is easy and safe to escape from the rope, e.g. for crevasse rescue.

CB
wivanov - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to cb294:
> (In reply to TimH)
> The bowline is also great for tying into the middle of a single rope for glacier travel. Just take a bight, tie a single bowline through your tie in loop using both strands in parallel, and secure the loop forming the end to your harness with a small screwgate carabiner.

I do this when leading short pitches on only one of my half ropes.

Bulls Crack - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

So, with the Yosemite finish, which is best? A 'LH' exit as in http://www.animatedknots.com/bowline/ see further down or a RH one http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=X&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-...

This seems to be the problem with bowlines - too many options
Rick Graham on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Rick Graham:

>
> Standard bowline and stopper for me.

At least this thread is reminding everybody of the need to tie some knot properly.

I use the same style of bowline as in the BMC video except that I thread up from the bottom. This has the advantage that the stopper is on top and easier to tighten IMHO.

Any deficiencies in the tying process are more visually apparent.

Why does the BMC show the knot upside down ?
Bulls Crack - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

So, the Edwards bowline? Seems pleasing. No idea what's going on in diagram 2 here http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=5523 I just jump to diagram 3 using rabbit and hole!
mkean - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:
So, the Edwards bowline?

Looks like the result of a drunken liason between a bowline and a figure of 8.
Bulls Crack - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
> So, the Edwards bowline?
>
> Looks like the result of a drunken liason between a bowline and a figure of 8.

But seems to possess advantages of both ie doesn't have the tendency to loosen like a bowline and is apparently easier to untie after loading than a fig of 8? Seems like a good choice if for some reason you don't want to use a figure of 8?
unclesamsauntibess - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

hands up if you've died as a result of bowline failure?

hands up if you've died as a result of figure 8 failure?

looks like a draw then......................
GrahamD - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> But seems to possess advantages of both ie doesn't have the tendency to loosen like a bowline and is apparently easier to untie after loading than a fig of 8? Seems like a good choice if for some reason you don't want to use a figure of 8?

Looks too bloody complicated by half.
Mr Lopez - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:
> (In reply to jwa)
>
> So, with the Yosemite finish, which is best? (...)

You can't do a Yosemite Finish on a LH bowline
Mr Lopez - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to TimH:
> I am also very aware of the risks of splitting/crossloading a bowline (resulting in opening the knot up into it's running position).

Tie in with a LH bowline then and it won't happen. ;)
Bulls Crack - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
>
> [...]
>
> Looks too bloody complicated by half.

Took me a few goes but got it now I think.

The Yosemite Bowline question was which side of the live rope to do the final loop thread, not whether it was a right or left bowline - different ways shown in the 2 links - probably doesn't matter.
Andy Long - on 18 Dec 2012
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
> [...]
>
> You can't do a Yosemite Finish on a LH bowline

In reply to Mr Lopez.

Of course you can.
Mr Lopez - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Andy Long:
> [...]
>
> Of course you can.

No you can't ;)

Give it a try, and you'll see.
Andy Long - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Mr Lopez:
> (In reply to Andy Long)
> [...]
>
> No you can't ;)
>
> Give it a try, and you'll see.

Just did. I know what you're getting at. With a left-handed one the end can only sit on one side of the collar. Still a Yosemite though. Takes a turn round the limb of the loop then up through the collar.
Mr Lopez - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Andy Long:

No really. Do a normal one and compare them. They are different.

If you did what i think you did, (one turn up and under), give a good tug between the standing part and the other strand of the loop and you'll see how the knot falls apart. If you went under and above then have a look in the back of it to see what i mean.
Andy Long - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Mr Lopez:
> (In reply to Andy Long)
>
> No really. Do a normal one and compare them. They are different.
>
> If you did what i think you did, (one turn up and under), give a good tug between the standing part and the other strand of the loop and you'll see how the knot falls apart. If you went under and above then have a look in the back of it to see what i mean.

OK, here goes. Make loop. Bunny comes out hole, down left of tree, up right, back down hole. Left-handed bowline complete. Now the Yosemite finish. Bunny is on the outside of the right limb, viewed from the top. Cross under it, to the left. Up left and across, down right, along under the right side of the knot then up out of the right of the collar, next to the standing rope. Dress it. Pull, pull, pull, pull. Bomber.

Of course it looks different, it's on a left-handed bowline. Remember, it's not a "Yosemite bowline". It's a "Yosemite finish".

I realise that with a "normal" bowline the free end will sit on either side of the standing rope, but it's the same method of providing an extra locking tuck.

We must be doing different things...
steveshaking - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Andy Long http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=210717
Here's the ebsb with yosemite finish. The end bound bit at least clears up where the end is prior to the yosemite finish, it also has a strong long, ironically very simalar to a fig 8, but easy to untie, no two part process, stable etc, it has a lot going for it.
Andy Long - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to steveshaking:
> (In reply to Andy Long http)//www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=210717
> Here's the ebsb with yosemite finish. The end bound bit at least clears up where the end is prior to the yosemite finish, it also has a strong long, ironically very simalar to a fig 8, but easy to untie, no two part process, stable etc, it has a lot going for it.

I agree with all that - a beautiful knot. I've tried it before but decided to use it all evening at the wall on Monday. I'm considering changing to it from the Edwards as well.

Pity it doesn't have a name yet!

Bulls Crack - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to steveshaking:

is there a step by step anywhere?
Bulls Crack - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack:
> (In reply to steveshaking)
>
> is there a step by step anywhere?

I'll answers my own question - on PACI site knots pdf http://www.paci.com.au/knots.php
steveshaking - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack: sorry, work does get in the way of posting, but yes the paci site has very serious knot resources. I agree too that it needs a proper name, ebsb with yf doesn't trip of the tongue, perhaps that should be the new knot threaded....
knudeNoggin - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Andy Long:
> (In reply to knudeNoggin)
> OK, had a look at that. A bowline that has worked sufficiently loose for the locking tucks to come out is then subjected to a fall. All that seems to happen is that the trapping loop tightens up with little movement of the rope around the harness strongpoints. Certainly negligible compared with the movement that must take place as the rope reorientates itself and pulls the strongpoints together during a normal leader-fall arrest.

"had a look at it" means what, even? The sorry thing about knotted materials is that MUCH can depend on various circumstances/conditions --esp. the material itself-- and so be hard to know by mere examination of the structure, even by some playing around in a rope or few. I've seen too many capsized bowlines in trawler mooring lines --i.e., where the main "loop" (circle) of the knot (aka "rabbit hole") UNtwists into (near) straightness and imparts off the curvature into the tail's bight (i.e., the U part (where rabbit runs around the tree)!? And yet one can also see photos of bowlines in yachting lines with quite open/large collars but holding w/o such capsizing.

So, did you do some serious drops in your examination? --full UIAA drop test (FF 1.7)? --in new thin lines, old stiff ones, in-between ... ? The movement I'm fearful of would be that of a noose closing its eye down around the harness tie-in points, under the severe load of a fall --which would be limited by the size of the eye.

(The EBDB looked mighty sure, IMO, but in some small polypropylene laid cord I watched to my amazement as it held momentarily and then just all loosened at once --the "end-bound" wrap around the double-turns of the bowline !!! I protested and tied a 2nd one even harder-set, but it only lasted a little longer, then stuck it's slick firm tongue out at me again. One of those "Janus" bowlines which can't be set tight nevertheless seemed to loosen less in this springing flexible cord --seemed that the hard turns wanted to open like scissors and that was resisted by the central loop, whereas the circular parts of the EBDB just magically enlarged.)


> On a more general point, I don't think knots like the Edwards, EDBD etc are particularly complicated. They just need a bit of practice.

The EBDB is a quite simple tail-wrap extension of the DB.
Edward's is a more messing extension of the Yosemite bowline --and a particular dressing of that, vis-a-vis which side of the loaded line the tail is brought back through the collar by, an issue similar to the so-called "Yosemite" finish re-tucking of the fig.8. ("fig.8" amounts to an ambiguous denotation --go out and look closely at what bears this name, and i.p. which "end" is the live end, which the tail!)

> I actually think the re-threaded Fo8 is rather complicated. It's just that

... it does seem to suffer a variety of dressings without major problems in coming untied, which is to its credit. There are some ways I think to make it more easily untied without compromising security, but some more testing of these remains to be done (considering first notes above about how varied the materials can be).


*kN*
kingborris - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:

I use a left hand variant of the water bowline with double stopper. Nice and easy to tie (and untie), and the slightly larger knot size (compared to the standard bowline) tells my brain that its safer when I'm about to take a lob
Andy Long - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:
> (In reply to Andy Long)
> [...]
>
> "had a look at it" means what, even?
>
>
> *kN*

No, I didn't go and fall on it, and I said "seems". I have subjected all the other bowlines I've used to experimental leader falls, so I suppose I should go and do the same with that. It'll be all your fault if I die.
Bulls Crack - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to steveshaking:
> (In reply to Bulls Crack) sorry, work does get in the way of posting,

I didn't let it today! ;-)

Static - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to knudeNoggin:

WTF? We are trying to discuss important knot matters here, stop taking the piss.
ashley1_scott - on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa:
Hi Connoisseurs, hoping you can help.
I have been climbing for 3 years and using the bowline for 2 of them it wasn't until I read the PACI data sheet that I found out that there are other ways to finish the knot off. So I just have a quick question, Do you need to use a stopper when finishing off with either the yosemite bowline or if you tie the EBSB with yosemite.
At the moment I tie it using the standard bowline (right hand bowline) with a double stopper, but I think I will be changing to the snap bowline or one of the above 2 stated knots.
I love using the bowline as when working routes I know that I will be able to undo the knot in less than a minute, I have a friend that only uses the Fo8 and I stood there and watched him trying to undo it after taking a unplanned 5mtr fall at an indoor centre.
My only real problem with using a bowline (and there is always a catch) is that only one other person I climb with know how to tie a bowline and I showed him how to do it, so therefore my buddy checks pretty much useless.
All my belayer's say is "yer looks the same as normal", or as one said the other day "no that doesn't look right". When I asked what looked wrong they replied with "I don't know"
GridNorth - on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to ashley1_scott: I like and trust the bowline but one of the criticisms levelled at it is that there are lots of variants which can make it difficult to check. I use a standard bowline with a double stopper knot and can't think of a good reason to change all though I was very nearly tempted to use the Yosemite finish at on point and ended up thinking if it aint broke don't fix it. I have always assumed that the Yosemite finish was instead of the stopper knot.
Andy Long - on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to ashley1_scott:
> (In reply to jwa)
> Hi Connoisseurs, hoping you can help.
> I have been climbing for 3 years and using the bowline for 2 of them it wasn't until I read the PACI data sheet that I found out that there are other ways to finish the knot off. So I just have a quick question, Do you need to use a stopper when finishing off with either the yosemite bowline or if you tie the EBSB with yosemite.
>
I would say no. I've been using the Edwards for a few years now but am currently converting to the EBSB+Yosemite because it dresses better and has a distinct and recognisable appearance. Both of these have double redundancy i.e. two extra tucks which need to work undone before the naked bowline is left. Both are resistant to working undone.

A bowline and stopper has single redundancy. A Fo8 with stopper has about "one and a half" since a partially untied Fo8 will still hold, just.



JD84 - on 22 Dec 2012
In reply to jwa: I've been using the rethreaded bowline for about a year. Really liked it at first but then it started to annoy me that it doesn't dress too well (in my ropes at least). So I've just been p*ssing about with my rope and tied the EBSB (without yosemite finish) and then rethreaded it. Seems extremely stable and redundant!

Weaknesses are: some might say its overkill, a little bulky, hard to buddy check and greedy on rope (and it may fall apart at first use as I don't really know what I'm doing). But all that aside, I like it. It's solved the problem of my rethreaded bowline not tightening up - and added some redundancy

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