/ The barbaric cost of your winter coat

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Jonay - on 18 Dec 2012
From the dailymail, so to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Is there any QC measures out there that manufacuters can sign up to to say that they've taken their down from trust worthy animal "friendly" environments/processes?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2240096/Feathers-ripped-birds-backs-gaping-wounds-sewn-pai...
Jonay - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay:

Just found this on Fjallraven's website
http://www.fjallraven.com/responsibility/our-responsibility/animals/

Nothing immediately obvious on ME's website.

Isn't mentioned on Rab's website in the section.. http://rab.uk.com/technology/down-insulation.html

Nothing on Haglof's.

Norrona do mention it - http://www.norrona.com/About/Corporate%20responsibility

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a animal lover, but I don't like to hear of these awful conditions that animals endure for human greed.

Apologies to those companies that I have mentioned that do not have anything on their websites that I didn't find, it's not to be taken that they do not use by-product down.
Jonay - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay:

Found this article from the start of the year. It appears there are other issues further back in the supply chain than that of where the down is removed from the bird.

Force feeding the Geese with an oily grain to fatten the liver to produce pt de foie gras from their oversized livers.

The North Face and Patagonia have admitted to using birds that may have had this done to them, they weren't sure due to not checking that far up the supply chain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/outdoors/outdoor-equipment/9091694/North-Face-jackets-made-from-fea...

http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2012/02/23/outdoor-brands-admit-use-of-controversial-goose-down-in-...


Would you boycott a brand for knowingly using birds that have been force-fed + stripped?

I probably would.

Paul F - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay:

My down kit is PHD who say their down is ethically sourced http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/ethics.php,

apart from a Patagonis Down hoodie. Patagonia changed their supplier due to concerns over force feeding geese for foie gras and not live plucking
http://www.patagonia.com/eu/enGB/patagonia.go?assetid=58468

It is because of the ethics of these companies that I buy their kit.
Ben Sharp - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay: Rab say they support free range, don't use live plucked down and only use european down. I imagine if you asked most of those companies they would say the same things.

It's the same as the meat industry, you wont get any guarentees, just lots of "we support local farmers", "we strive to improve animal conditions", "we have only the highest standards of welfare" etc. etc. But they're businesses at the end of the day and people will buy the cheaper items most of the time, irrespective of welfare. Next time you're in tesco look at the bananas, despite the recent publicity of working conditions on banana plants look at the proportion of fair trade to normal ones. At the tesco 24 here there's rows of normal banans and usually about 3-6 bunches of fair trade ones. Not that fair trade is perfect but it's usually the more ethical choice. At least 50% of consumers couldn't care less, the majority of the rest either pretend not to notice or are happy enough with the platitudes. The companies will supply what is wanted, no one wants to spend an extra 20 on a down jacket just so a company can say "we guarantee our geese have good lives" instead of "we support animal welfare."

Ben
ice.solo - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay:

im upset at the conditions of the baby primas that were mistreated for my belay jacket.
Trangia - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay:
> (In reply to Jonay)
>
>
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> Isn't mentioned on Rab's website in the section.. http://rab.uk.com/technology/down-insulation.html
>
>
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> Apologies to those companies that I have mentioned that do not have anything on their websites that I didn't find, it's not to be taken that they do not use by-product down.

Rab have refuted the Mail article

http://www.occoutdoor.co.uk/news/rab-moves-to-ethical-down-as-daily-mail-ignores-facts

As you say, silence on their website should not be taken to mean they don't source ethical down. So for now I will give "silent" companies the benefit of the doubt, but clearly this "silence" needs to be changed quickly by all companies concerned on the basis that if they don't make ethical sourcing statements they will be boycotted in the future and to have bite this should include a boycott of their whole range of products.

Scott Kirkhope - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay: Mountain Equipments home page clearly shows a link giving you all the information. http://www.thedownproject.me.uk/index.php
Michael Ryan - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay:

>
> Nothing immediately obvious on ME's website.

http://www.thedownproject.me.uk/down-codex.php

Mountain Equipment has throughout its 50 year history committed a great deal of time and effort into ensuring we consistently obtain the very best qualities of down for use in our sleeping bags and clothing. However in recent years we have become all too-aware that there are also ethical, environmental and animal welfare issues relating to the sourcing of our down.

We know we cannot change everything overnight but are working hard with our suppliers to understand everything there is to know about our supply chain so we can take steps to improve it where possible.

The DOWN CODEX Project was launched in 2009, comprising a range of rules and commitments that we expected our down supply chain to adhere to and achieve. The aim, to have the most comprehensive and transparent auditing mechanism for our down supply chain of any outdoor manufacturer in the world.
gear boy - on 18 Dec 2012
In reply to ice.solo: chuckle!

But on another note, if you are concerned over the farming welfare of animals, then that person should also be concerned over carbon footprint which is much higher on a Prima jkt (oil)


Maybe wool would be better? !-)
Boogs on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay:

Interesting reading ; http://www.crux.uk.com/en/sleeping-bags.php?info=36

I still feel bad but not as bad as maybe I could or should be feeling 80( .

You bird hurting bunch of b*stardos ! you know who you ( we ) are . . .
winhill - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay:

The was another plucking thread on this a couple of weeks ago, it happens every Christmas, it's getting worse than Only Fools and Horses repeats now.
itsThere on 19 Dec 2012
Roberttaylor - on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay: I shudder to think of the animal suffering that almost certainly went into my winter jacket.











Those poor buffalo.
Mr Fuller on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay: This is a really big issue that's come to light only recently. Most outdoor companies take this issue very very seriously, however, and none of the reputable brands support live plucking. I've written an article for UKC that briefly discusses the issue, but it is a complex one. It'll be online in the near future.
itsThere on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Mr Fuller: Out of interest did you find any info on if NF use live plucking, or will i have to wait for the article.
ebygomm - on 19 Dec 2012
Mr Fuller on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to itsThere: I've not gone into that level of detail on it. It's a general article about insulation so doesn't just cover down ethics. TNF have previously been implicated by live plucking but like all the other major brands they are now working very hard to ensure it doesn't happen in their supply chain. They're the biggest brand so probably use the most down.
EddInaBox on 19 Dec 2012
Sarah G on 19 Dec 2012
Wear fur. Much better.

Sxx
m0unt41n on 19 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay: Strange the banks havent taken over sleeping bag manufacturers since you would think that they would feel right at home with all the distortion and optimistic statements made about down.
dazwan on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Jonay: Course, you could go synthetic, I'm sure folk will point out the carbon footprint, and how many pop bottles suffered to fill my coat, but I'm not too worried, I'm far more conscious of the carbon footprint due to the 40 mins it took me to get out of a car park in Leeds tonight because some southerners were in town for a "football" game or something.
ben b - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Sarah G: Irony noted but yes, I think you are right - certainly round here.

A major part of conservation in NZ is killing things. Shooting wildlife, running it over, trapping, poisoning and killing on an industrial scale. Cats, weasels, stoats, possums, pigs, deer, rats, mice - insert "only good x is a dead x" comment to taste. Only by wholesale slaughter do we make a dent in the alien species and stop the native birds from being wiped out.

If TNF started trimming their hoods with hunted NZ possum fur we'd be cock-a-hoop*. I'm uncertain as to the sustainability of supply for better furs, but the UK countryside would do well to have less mink/sable running around for starters. A sensible debate to have, I think.

b

ben b - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Sarah G:

* I never thought I could use the words "fur", "hoop" and "c*ck" in the same sentence and get away with it....

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