/ Do you pull topropes when leading indoors?

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alanlgm - on 20 Dec 2012
Last night i was leading indoors and i took a big fall, luckily it was on a slight overhang and i had a good belayer so all was good....

Except there was a toprope still hanging on the route i was climbing and out of instinct i grabbed it and now have a nice burn across the palm of my hand to go with my sore foot from slamming into the wall.

Some walls i have climbed at let you take the top ropes down as long as you put them back up and some make you leave them up.

whats the norm near you? as following on from this i want to always pull them to save me from myself.

Paul Evans - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:
OK first off was it the walls top rope or one left in place by previous party? In the latter case I would definitely remove, asking the other party first if they were about. If the walls, then I'd ask the wall staff.
Personally I don't like the idea of a moving rope (the one I'm on) and a non-moving rope (the top rope) being through the top anchors at the same time when I'm lowering off. But that's just me...

Paul
JimboWizbo - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm: At my local wall you climb with the top rope in place, if the rope is really in the way then people usually clip it through the bottom QD on the adjacent route, obviously this isn't a good solution when it's busy!

I've been to walls where you have to pull the top rope down, which would be fine if there were two lower offs, oddly they all seem to only have one lower off, which means the process of replacing the rope is a little contrived (for example, clip their rope through the lower off, downclimb, lower off your last clip).
alanlgm - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm: It was the walls Rope and i used to pull them until the change in policy meant that we have to leave them in place, and whilst clipping them to an adjacent route would be ok on a slab or vertical wall when your on an overhang it doesnt work quite as well.

now at the top they have a big steel krab for the top rope and a snapgate for your lower off when leading as its only a small centre there are no lead only walls. so i think i may start a movement to be allowed to pull them again.

puppythedog on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm: At my wall the most common thing is to pull the rope to one side to keep it out the way. I ahve, would be happy to do again pulled the top rope and then replaced it when finished. Pulling and replacing is safe but a faff because their is an independent Maillon for the top rope (so feed the rope through it) and two crabs (one snap one screw) for Leaders to lower off.
alanlgm - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to puppythedog: its interesting to hear about the different lower offs at the different walls. you would think it would be standardised across the country
Oceanrower - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:
> (In reply to puppythedog) its interesting to hear about the different lower offs at the different walls. you would think it would be standardised across the country

Why do you think that? There's no national chain or franchise. Each wall is owned or operated by an individual or council with their own procedures and methods and what might be ideal for a small council run wall of a few plywood sheets in an old squash hall would be completely unsuitable for, eg., Ratho, Westway or Awesome Walls.
alanlgm - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Oceanrower: I would think that because the HSE like to issue "guidelines" to cover most industries especially one with an inherrant risk of injury.

I understand that different facilities have different requirements but you could argue that it is reasonably practicable for all of them to have a set way of lowering off
Up High on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Paul Evans: I agree with you I always pull a top rope through, regardless of wall policy, as it can damage both ropes when they are pulled against one another, also some top set ups are very difficult to clip with a rope already in, so if you rreally pumped it can resu;lt in a fall.
I always put the top ropes back up and so far when challenged by some
staff who are usually far less experienced and finally get it when its explained in simple terms its been ok.
Fraser on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

Agree totallly, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to expect from what is a 3rd party service/facility provider. I'd actually been led to believe that all walls now needed to have a double lower-off of some kind.
Bulls Crack - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

I wanted to at the Manc climbing centre last week as there'd been a rope on the big OH wall unused for about 2 hours, However it turned out to be someone's and they said they were using it.....hmmm next time I'll just pull it.
Neil Williams - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Paul Evans:

Generally at walls that have two lower-offs you don't pull it, and walls that only have one you do, no?

Neil
Jamie B - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

Was the top-rope running through the same lower-off as you were planning to use or was it adjacent? If the former what were you planning to do at the top? As mentioned above, having one loaded and one non-loaded rope running through the same lower-off is a fundamentally bad idea.

Walls tend to be a bit reluctant to let you pull down in-situ top-ropes. From experience, despite promises to put back as found, often this task gets forgotten about, done poorly (gates not closed at top), or done dangerously (top-rope used as lead-rope or both ropes put through lower-off).

Perhaps this helps explain why most supervised commercial walls would prefer routes to be defined as either "lead" or "top-rope" and boundaries not blurred.
staceyjg - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

I personally,think you need to learn to fall off without the need to grab something, that something if not a rope, could do you even more damage than a bit of rope burn!
JimboWizbo - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Bulls Crack: This happened to us at our wall. The guy was belaying on a different line after leaving his rope on the one we wanted to use.
"Are you using that line?"
"Yeah"
"Really?"
"You can top rope on our rope if you want"

Great
GrahamD - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

Top ropes can be annoying but in my experience you leave them in place - Its a right faff to replace one any way. Also you don't thread your rope through the same lower off krab as the top rope.
jkarran - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

I usually just hook the out of the way to one side or tension them away from the wall to a sandbag. Sometimes I'll pull them but only when the other options aren't available and I'm planning to take falls. I don't know or really care what the wall's policy is. The easier option is just to sue the toprope which is what I'd do four times out of five.

jk
rocky57 - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to JimboWizbo:
> (In reply to Bulls Crack) This happened to us at our wall. The guy was belaying on a different line after leaving his rope on the one we wanted to use.
> "Are you using that line?"
> "Yeah"
> "Really?"
> "You can top rope on our rope if you want"
>
> Great

I had almost the same words said to me once, quick as a flash I started to pull his rope down, whilst replying "Thanks for the offer to use your rope, I'll use it to lead as you were kind enough to offer". He never said anything else. Strangely enough, and would you believe it, I then had a few falls on it!
Durbs on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to rocky57:

Is there not a risk, that if you pull it, you might not be able to finish the lead?
rocky57 - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Durbs:
> (In reply to rocky57)
>
> Is there not a risk, that if you pull it, you might not be able to finish the lead?

I wouldn't be too bothered about that.
Neil Williams - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to rocky57:

At a wall you usually find there is a mix of grades, so if you can't finish the route you intended to lead, most likely you can finish another one on the same or an adjacent[1] line. Or bribe someone else with beer to do it for you.

[1] I've often led or top-roped an adjacent easier route to get a top rope on a harder route to give it a try but where I wouldn't have felt happy leading it, IYSWIM.

Neil
Neil Williams - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to rocky57:

Don't think I'd lead on someone else's rope as I don't know its history or how well it's been looked after. Not even to prove a point ;)

Neil
Neil Williams - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

"As mentioned above, having one loaded and one non-loaded rope running through the same lower-off is a fundamentally bad idea."

Agreed, though it doesn't stop some walls (notably PyB!) having theirs set up like that. I "corrected" it to top-rope in screwgate, snapgate for lower-off on one wall, and got told to go back up and put it back! (I did this on another line's top-rope rather than leading, as I wouldn't fancy being responsible for damaging the top-rope which could then have led to someone else getting injured).

Neil
Kemics - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

I used to grab the rope (my own knot) when falling ...until climbing granite and I raped the back of my hand down the rock under the tension of the rope :( . It's only a false/imagined security anyway and a bad habit, best flight position is the falling cat- get your hands ready to brace against the rock if you are going to swing into it.

Ciro - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

would it not be better to teach yourself to stop grabbing things when you fall?

before you do something daft like this (graphic pics of nasty injury)

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=Display&ForumID=5&MessageID=2851&Replie...
Kemics - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Ciro:

owwwwww!

Jazz hand flourish is the only way to fall :)
Durbs on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to rocky57:
> (In reply to Durbs)
> [...]
>
> I wouldn't be too bothered about that.

Sorry, not you specifically - more in the case of pulling the top rope, then failing to lead it.
Would leave the wall down a top-rope unless someone leads it...
Ciro - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Kemics:
> (In reply to Ciro)
>
> owwwwww!
>
> Jazz hand flourish is the only way to fall :)

indeed, nice and loose and relaxed, and ideally placed to fend off any unfortunately placed tufa that might like to make aquaintence with your head as you swing in at the end of the fall.
rocky57 - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Durbs:
> (In reply to rocky57)
> [...]
>
> Sorry, not you specifically - more in the case of pulling the top rope, then failing to lead it.
> Would leave the wall down a top-rope unless someone leads it...

If you read the post I was replying to it says 'his own rope...'. Different matter if it is the wall's own rope that is in-situ.
winhill - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to rocky57)
>
> Don't think I'd lead on someone else's rope as I don't know its history or how well it's been looked after. Not even to prove a point ;)
>
> Neil

If I see someone eyeing up a route I'm about to set a top rope on I usually let them go first, just about everyone says they'll use my rope to leave a top rope in place. If it's outdoors I ask them to use my gear too, and they do that as well. No-one's ever said, sorry that's just too dodgy.
ads.ukclimbing.com
rmoffat - on 20 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm: Defiantly, just pull them down, walls love it when you do that!!
GrahamD - on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to rmoffat:

> Defiantly, just pull them down, walls love it when you do that!!

You mean provided you lead back up on them, of course ?
alanlgm - on 21 Dec 2012
I know, I know i shoulndt be grabbing things when i fall and i never have before and dont know why i did this time i guess it was instinct.

the blisters on my hand will hopefully stop me from doing it again anyway.

if it wasnt the walls actual top rope i would have pulled it for sure and either put it back up for whoevers it was or left it down to teach them a lesson for hogging the routes.

i would never put my rope through an anchor with a another rope through it as i know thats a bad idea.

I think i will just pull it from now on as its better to ask for forgiveness after doing what you want than asking for permission and not getting your own way.

merry christmas all

Al
puppythedog on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to GrahamD: I do not lead up on those ropes, they are not dynamic or suitable for leading. I trail the rope leading on another. i only do this if it's necessary an dusually only if there are a few climbs on one lower off I wish to climb.
Neil Williams - on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to puppythedog:

I think he was joking...

Neil
GrahamD - on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to puppythedog:

Sorry, yes, tongue in cheek.

Pulling down centre top ropes or leading on their ropes are both generally not popular with centres
Jackwd - on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm: I work at a local wall, our policy is that you don't lead routes with ropes already on them, the wall isn't large enough to have designated tr/lead areas. I'm sure you could always skip the routes you wanted to lead and save them for a time when the rope has been moved. People who have suggested removing ropes are taking a chance, it only takes a small bit of human error to not screw up a krab properly which could lead to a very serious accident, not only affecting you but others who use the facility you climb at. Please respect walls rules, they are there for your safety and other users of the wall. Sometimes it's not the easiest option to follow them but following them can prevent major accidents.

If you do HAVE to remove a rope, ask the staff at the wall, we're climbers too, we know your pain and please ensure that it's correctly secured in place.
Fraser on 21 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

I'm fairly sure all the walls I've climbed at have separate leading and TR-ing areas. There are no insitu draws in the TR zones so the situation has never arisen, other than folk who've lead up a route, left their rope in place and walked off. In such circumstances I either try and find the owner (to ask if they're about to go back on it) or if I can't, pull the rope. Use it or lose it.
Oceanrower - on 22 Dec 2012
In reply to Fraser: most of the places I know have a mix. Some are just top rope (no draws) but many can be either top or lead depending on the whim of the centre, often side by side.
Bulls Crack - on 22 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:

I think you have to pull top-ropes don't you? Otherwise they wouldn't be top-ropes!
Phantom35 - on 22 Dec 2012
In reply to alanlgm:
The wall I work at we don't allow you to pull down our top ropes for the simple fact that we can not inspect how the top rope has been put back everytime. We have another snapgate next to our two snapgates for when you want to lead. This seems to be where the industry is heading, as more and more walls seem to be doing this.
BarrySW19 on 27 Dec 2012
In reply to GrahamD:

And, after all, you did agree not to do it (remember the long form you signed promising to follow their rules to be able to climb there?)

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