/ Climbing coaching qualifications (or L1/L2 coaches who climb)

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martinph78 on 14 Jan 2013
Hi all,

I am going to be working towards my SPA award ths year but I am also involved with coaching kids as a volunteer assistant. Most of the Level 1 and Level 2 coaching qualifications that are available to me are for football, tennis, golf etc.

Does anyone have any information about achieving an L1/L2 coaching qualification in climbing? It doesn't appear to be part of Sport England or other literature that I have and climbing is a bit of an "unkown" within the organisation that I am working with.

There are plenty of providers of climbing instructor, training and coaching certificates but I none seem to meet a nationally recognised standard, if there even is such a thing?

Any tips appreciated.

Thanks, Martin
Neil Williams - on 14 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978:

Not sure there is such a thing, if you mean coaching as in "how to climb better" as distinct from "how to run a session safely" with a bit of the former which is covered in SPA, CW(L)A etc.

Neil
martinph78 on 14 Jan 2013
In reply to Neil Williams: Hi Neil, I was looking for coaching as in how to climb better, how to develop a program etc.

The FA run football coaching qualifications, Level 1 (assistant) Level 2 (coach) for example. I can't find anything similar for climbing.

Cheers, Martin
SAF - on 14 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978: http://www.thebmc.co.uk/fundamentals-of-climbing-1

BMC Fundamentals is the only one I've heard of.
ian Ll-J - on 14 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978: A new Coaching award is being launched this year....

http://www.mountain-training.org/news/coaching-award-scheme-latest-updates
Paul at work - on 14 Jan 2013
In reply to ian Ll-J:

As Ian has already posted. The Coaching scheme should be being launched later this year. I had the pleasure of assessing on the second part of the first Level 1 assessments in early December. Some photos here - https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151183932917746.444093.553242745&type=1
martinph78 on 14 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978: Thanks guys. Ian's link looks good and might be just what I am after.

The BMC fundementals states "for coaches" and yet there is no coaching qualification for climbing (until the spring this year). I guess anyone can call themselves a climbing coach! The fundamentals course does look good though and something I think would be very useful to have. Shame that they are not run in teh North East!

I have found the whole CWA/SPA thing very complicated also.

Thanks for the above info.
Paul at work - on 15 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978:
>
>
> I have found the whole CWA/SPA thing very complicated also.
>
>

In what way?

CWA covers working on artificial structures, while the SPA's main focus is working with groups outside, but also covers working on artificial structures.

Mountain training have lots of information about both schemes on their website, along with a couple of videos showing the differences between the awards.

martinph78 on 15 Jan 2013
In reply to Paul at work: Hi Paul,

With the CWA for example: having to register, needing to climb at three walls, log so many climbs before registering, logging so many lead cimbs at three walls etc.

Most courses that I have done in the past (and there are a lot for a lot of different things) require you to attend a course (however many hours or days) and you get assessed and a certificate.

It's quite hard, as a volunteer, to explain that I need to get a logbook and register at £xx, then log climbs at three different walls (that'll be at a cost to myself), then go on a course at £xx, then log more climbs at three different walls (that would be at a cost to myself) then pay for an assessment.

All of the other courses I have attended, including first aid, fundemental movement, health awareness etc have been arranged as 1-4 day course that I attend and get a certificate.


The BMC workshop would be good, although as it's not a nationally recognised "level xx" qualification I don't think that the cost would be covered, and I know they wouldn't cover the cost of me driving and staying in Wales!


Unless I'm looking at this the wrong way?

I would liek to coach kids climbing. This would be at indoor walls around teh county, be it at a school or at Rock Antics. Also, in the summer holidays trips are organised and I would need to be able to go and use other walls around the country. So I thought CWA and the BMC fundementals would cover that? But see points above.


I am currently volunteering at a school wall with their own instructor, so basically belaying. I'd like to take the next step and actually coach/instruct, and be able to take kids to other walls.



The SPA was something I was going to do myself last year until I injured my back. I think that this will have to go on the back-burner for another few years and I'll stick to climbing outdoors with friends!

Paul at work - on 15 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978:

Hi Martin, feel free to give me a call and talk this through with you. There are plenty of ways to look at this and aid your progression.
SAF - on 15 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978:
> (In reply to Paul at work) Hi Paul,
>
> It's quite hard, as a volunteer, to explain that I need to get a logbook and register at £xx, then log climbs at three different walls (that'll be at a cost to myself), then go on a course at £xx, then log more climbs at three different walls (that would be at a cost to myself) then pay for an assessment.

Surely this should not be a problem if you enjoy climbing, and if you don't enjoy it, should you really be teaching it to others.

> All of the other courses I have attended, including first aid, fundemental movement, health awareness etc have been arranged as 1-4 day course that I attend and get a certificate.

Climbing is inherently more dangerous than the other sports you listed as having qualifications in (football, tennis, golf etc.). What is the worst harm an unruley child could come to in a big grass field in contrast to the risks that child could put themselves or others at in a climbing wall or a crag...prehaps that is why, prerequisites and hands on experience are higher for climbing awards.

> The BMC workshop would be good, although as it's not a nationally recognised "level xx" qualification I don't think that the cost would be covered, and I know they wouldn't cover the cost of me driving and staying in Wales!

Most the time, when you live in North Wales you get used to the cost and inconvenience of having to drive elsewhere to do alot of things, for once it's the other way round!!!

> Unless I'm looking at this the wrong way?

I think so....

> I would liek to coach kids climbing. This would be at indoor walls around teh county, be it at a school or at Rock Antics. Also, in the summer holidays trips are organised and I would need to be able to go and use other walls around the country. So I thought CWA and the BMC fundementals would cover that? But see points above.

Hence why you need to go off on your own and get expereince of a variety of walls.



martinph78 on 15 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978: Thanks Paul, you have a PM and I shall give you a call. Much appreciated, think it would help to talk through the routes and options available with someone.

SAF, I don't think that your points are helpful in answering my request for information. Of course I enjoy climbing and I want to teach kids to climb. I personally don't climb at indoor walls as I don't enjoy it as much as real rock (and my finances don't stretch far enough to do both). I am VOLUNTEERING, which means that I WANT to do this, and that is the reason I am asking for information, so that I go about it in the correct way and do the best I can for the kids I am teaching.

I understand that climbing is different to other sports but the fundamental principles of coaching are going to be similar across all sports.

martinph78 on 15 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978: A big thanks to Paul for having a chat with me over the phone, it all seems quite a lot clearer now and not as complicated. Talking through it and writing down a "roadmap" has helped untangle it for me!

Cheers, Martin
nasher47 on 15 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978:
You are looking at it in the wrong way. This industry is not about finance, if you want to get rich you should look elsewhere.

You clearly need to get out, do more climbing and broaden your experience before you even start to consider being a coach. If it's too much hassle for you to even get through the minimum requirements for CWA/SPA then coaching is definitely not for you and I would be worried you would pass on your lack of passion and drive to your students.
Paul at work - on 15 Jan 2013
In reply to nasher47:

Such helpful comments. Do you show that same level of compassion with your own clients?
nasher47 on 16 Jan 2013
In reply to Paul at work:
I'm not sure I follow you - my comments are as follows:

1.) Finance is not a good reason for getting into this industry
2.) He needs to broaden his experience
3.) The requirements of CWA/SPA are not arduous and anyone that finds them so needs to question why they're doing what they're doing

This is constructive is it not? Compassion has nothing to do with being helpful.
martinph78 on 16 Jan 2013
In reply to nasher47:

How you completely missed the point/mis-interpreted this thread I do not know?!?!

1) "This industry is not about finance, if you want to get rich you should look elsewhere"
I am not getting into the industry for financial reasons, and I never said that I was. I am VOLUNTEERING, this means that it costs me both my time and my own money to do this (I don't get any money for travel costs etc).

2) Volunteering is one way that I am broadening my experience. My reason for asking the question/for advice was so that I could choose teh correct route for my developement taht would benefit me and the people that I am helping.

3) "If it's too much hassle for you to even get through the minimum requirements for CWA/SPA then coaching is definitely not for you" It is not too much hassle for me, but I didn't understand the routes, hence why I f**king asked! Now that Paul has kindly taken the time to discuss the routes to me I don't find it complicated and have a clear plan in mind that will get me where I would like to be. I can now discuss this with my co-ordinater and decide on a plan of action beneficial to us all.

As for a lack of passion and drive, you can get right off your high horse with that one. How teh hell do you come to that conclusion? You don't know me at all! If I didn't have a passion I wouldn't be volunteering, and if I didn't have drive I wouldn't have asked for the best way to develope my skills would I? I also wouldn't be on climbing forums, reading climbing literature, going climbing as much as possible, talking about climbing all of the time. Oh, and volunteering to share that passion with others.

"This is constructive is it not?"

Not in the slightest, it's the slagging off of someone, who has asked a reasonable question, by at best mis-interpreting what has been said, to suit an argument that for some reason you felt like getting off your chest.




None of your comments are based on fact at all (aside from those that you have implied, which are not actually fact). I am not sure what your motive for being so critical is, but lets be thankful that not everyone in this world is like you otehrwise it would be a pretty miserable place.

SAF - on 16 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978: Martin I think you need to re-read your post from 10 o'clock on tuesday, and see how it might have come to be interpreted by myself and Nasher. You came across as very negative in several different ways about a scheme that you admit you have very little knowledge or understanding, this may not have been intentional, but certainely came across as such.
nasher47 on 16 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978:

My bad. Sorry for the misinterpretation, best of luck with your progress.
martinph78 on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to SAF: I don't see it as negative, but if that's the case then I still don't see why it escalated in the manner that it did.



I think that we have all had our say so best leave it at that. I'm happy with the route that I need to go now that it has been clarified and positive about moving forward.

Cheers, Martin

ads.ukclimbing.com
The Ex-Engineer - on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Martin1978: A couple of points it might be worth highlighting.

First, it is worth remembering that Level 1 coaches are by definition Assistant Coaches - they are generally NOT trained, assessed or qualified to coach unsupervised and should be working under the direction of a Level 2+ coach. People can argue this does not happen in practice but that is how all the schemes are officially designed and set-up.
[Some sports do not have Level 1 coaches (Rowing? IIRC) and there are some sport specific exceptions to the general principle.]

Therefore, if wishing to make a general comparison, CWA/SPA are best compared to existing L2 coaching qualification in other sports. As such, I'm afraid I have to side with NAF/Nasher, your comments about the complexity of the CWA/SPA qualifications are just nonsensical.

For example, consider the L2 coach qualification in hockey -http://www.englandhockey.co.uk/page.asp?section=94&sectionTitle=Level+2 It is not exactly straight-forward and includes:
Previous sporting experience
Scheme Registration (and prior attendance on a L1 combined training/assessment course)
Attendance on a Training Course
Completion of a Portfolio
Hold a current First Air Certificate
Formal Assessment

That progression, which is similar to most L2 qualification, is pretty much identical to CWA/SPA, so I can't see any reason to claim there is any undue complexity. The system in climbing doesn't closely match other sports but it is no different in its general outline to most L2 awards.

To an outsider, most sport specific qualifications at first sight have anomalous features. I would love to gain multiple qualifications in other sports and activities, but I have to accept that being generally fit, coordinated and a good instructor doesn't just mean I can collect them like Boy Scout Badges. However, on balance, I look on that as a positive thing - it is much better that the various qualifications are actually worth something.
Scott_vzr on 17 Jan 2013
The biggest difference between SPA and a UKCC Qual, is THERE IS NO PAPERWORK OR PORTFOLIO in the SPA !
nasher47 on 17 Jan 2013
In reply to Scott_vzr:

Yes there is! It's called a logbook- You have to log your climbs and instructing experience, it's part of the requirements.
Scott_vzr on 22 Jan 2013
In reply to nasher47: Eh, nothing like the UKCC Portfolios, believe me.

Have you done a UKCC course ?

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