/ Black shiver gully

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drewbydoo - on 22 Jan 2013
Can any one tell me if Black shiver gully on Ingleborough is in any sort of condition?
quirky - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to drewbydoo: I will give this one a bump as i would also be interested to hear if it worth a trip over to Ingleborough.
Kid Spatula - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to drewbydoo:

As would I! The waterfall up near Whernside also looks like a goer. Has anyone done this?

Simon_Sheff - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Kid Spatula:

Me too!
Al Evans on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Simon_Sheff: Has the waterfall down Gaping Ghyll ever frozen, that would be some icicle!
Simon_Sheff - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
British caves don't reach freezing point
Jim Haydock - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Kid Spatula:

I did it last year when it froze up.
Easier on the right side when we did it.
The centre section was still running and very thin.
It's only short though but worth the short-ish walk in if the weather is nice - some lovely scenery up there.
JH.
Kid Spatula - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to drewbydoo:

It looks like you could combine the lower waterfall with the gorge above and the upper waterfall followed by bashing straight up the front of Whernside.

I've done the latter as Alps training and it was bizarrely scary.
Al Evans on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Simon_Sheff:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> British caves don't reach freezing point

There was for many years a permanent icefield at the foot of Eldon Hole, we did a docu on it being the most southerly permanent snow south of Scotland. So British caves certainly can reach freezing point.
Red Rover - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Al Evans: I've been down there when the snowplug's there and when it isnt, and the cave was definatly above freezing in both instances, which is why it melts, just very slowly because it doesnt get any sun. I'm pretty sure the cave is above zero as whenever ive been there (snow or not) theres been liquid water in the main chamber, as well as liquid water standing in the pools up in Millers' Aven.
Simon_Sheff - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Simon_Sheff)
> [...]
>
> There was for many years a permanent icefield at the foot of Eldon Hole, we did a docu on it being the most southerly permanent snow south of Scotland. So British caves certainly can reach freezing point.


Your being pedantic, and your wrong.
Eldon hole is a large 'chasm' open to the elements including snow so is not a fair example of underground ice forming.

That is entirely different to water 'freezing' underground. So no they don't.
For the record I have been in many Dales and Peak caves in heinous outside temperatures, and have not run into ice.

The ambient winter temperature in British caves in Jan/Feb is about 8 or 9 degrees.


Red Rover - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Simon_Sheff: I remember making a fool of myself at the TSG 3 years ago when told that there was no point me going to Eldon as there was a snow plug. I thought it would be a little bit of snow in the crawl to the main chamber so I told them I was going with a spade and some salt and it would be fine. When I abbed down and landed on a huge block of snow that was clearly 20 feet thick, I felt a bit daft!
Simon_Sheff - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Red Rover:
> (In reply to Simon_Sheff) I remember making a fool of myself at the TSG 3 years ago when told that there was no point me going to Eldon as there was a snow plug. I thought it would be a little bit of snow in the crawl to the main chamber so I told them I was going with a spade and some salt and it would be fine. When I abbed down and landed on a huge block of snow that was clearly 20 feet thick, I felt a bit daft!


I've never been down in the winter. But part of the attraction of caving for me, was something to do in the rainy/cold season due to the standard temperatures. Remember having a nice NYE trip down Christmas pot in Ingleborough and being quite snug until we came out into the snow and ice in wetsuits. nearly got hypothermia.

Red Rover - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Simon_Sheff: Similar story with me, I only cave in winter so I can climb in summer, which meens I only see the grim side of caving. I once fell in the sump at the bottom of Notts on a freezing febuary night, by the time I'd got back to the car my gear had frozen to my suit. Theres been a couple of times when we've put wet suits down on leck fell road and had to peel them off later. Makes summer evening in the pass seem so good!
Hirosim - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Simon_Sheff)
> [...]
>
> There was for many years a permanent icefield at the foot of Eldon Hole, we did a docu on it being the most southerly permanent snow south of Scotland. So British caves certainly can reach freezing point.

CERTAINLY DO NOT

Wind your neck in


Al Evans on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Hirosim: I'm sorry, I don't understand your post?
Simon_Sheff - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Hirosim) I'm sorry, I don't understand your post?


I think he was saying he doesn't agree with you.
Admittedly in a strange and slightly rude manner.
Although you are wrong
In reply to Simon_Sheff: I did though think that you were pushing your luck a little using the word "pedantic" in the same sentence where you then spelt "you're" wrongly as "your". Twice. ;-)
Kid Spatula - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to drewbydoo:

That Black Shiver Gully eh?
Al Evans on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Simon_Sheff: But everything I said was true, thats why I don't understand the abuse?
Hammy - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Simon_Sheff:

You need to add more detail if you are going to make a statement like that.

What you should say is that once you are well away from surface influences the ambient temperature in British caves is about 8 - 9 degrees.

As has been noted Eldon can hold snow and therefore be at or below freezing for a large part of the year.

I have been in, for example, the Alum Pot system in the Yorkshire Dales with icicles forming like stalactites well over 50m from the entrance, due to the draught pulling the freezing air through the cave. It was, admittedly, minus 18 outside (2 years ago).
quirky - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Hammy: so does that mean Black Shiver Gully is in then???
GPN - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
Sensible answer: I'd be very surprised if the waterfall in GG had frozen in recent times ( i.e. since the last ice age) The final drop is about 35m so this would have to be a free standing ice column. Also given the size of the main chamber it seems unlikely that the temperature would ever drop below zero. The only places I've ever seen icicles underground in the uk is in fairly small passages with a strong inwards draught. Snow plugs in places like Eldon Hole are the result of lots of snow being funnelled into the shaft rather than sub-zero underground temperatures. The waterfall in Alum Pot on the other hand...
quirky - on 23 Jan 2013
In reply to GPN: so.....black shiver???
GPN - on 24 Jan 2013
In reply to quirky:
Maybe the entrance crawl, but the Black Rift is far too far underground to freeze.
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Red Rover - on 24 Jan 2013
In reply to GPN: You could have a really good day out, if you did Black shiver pot then continued up the gully to the top.

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