/ Biggest number of failures

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Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
What do you reckon the route is with the biggest number of failures - or biggest proportion of failures?

[Has to be a reasonably popular route, I've already thought of the smart-arse answer "Wuthering Direct Start - 100%" or similar.]

It'll obviously be a grit route (more ascents + very back-offable), here's a few that might be contenders:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=19072

One of mine. Given that not that many failures will be logged, there's quite a few in the logbooks there.

This is looking good for "lead dog" and "lead dfn":

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28020

Quite a few on here...

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10379

And here:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=11344
Monkey_Alan - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> It'll obviously be a grit route
I'd say it's more likely to be a sport route - people more likely to try something harder - and repeatedly.

Avenging the Halsewell at Winspit (7b, **) has 42% dogged, 10% dnf.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=14892
Skyfall - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I suspect Finale HVS+!!! (as per the guide) at Shepherds sees a fair amount of airtime.
nniff - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Chipperydoodah at Stone Farm. That must be on at least a 20:1 attempt:failure ratio
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Chequer's Crack, hyper-popular crag, good line, innocuous looking, tough little bugger = lots of dogging, frigging and froggin!


Chris
deacondeacon - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Quietus has a high ratio of dnfs but If we can include boulder problems you'll be hard pushed to find a climb with more failures than deliverence. In the middle of the most popular bouldering area in the country (probably) and looks piss. Must get more than 100 fails a month easy.
Skyfall - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Oh yes, Orpheus Wall at Birchen seems to have an insitu leader failing on multiple attempts each time I walk past...
deacondeacon - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to nniff:
Chipperydoodah is an absolute bugger, never managed the direct finish even when I was climbing down there three times a week.
john arran - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> It'll obviously be a grit route (more ascents + very back-offable)

That depends on whether you class backing off as failure. I prefer to think of it as exercising judgement and deciding to leave the committed attempt for another day. I think if you use the usual weighting-the-rope-or-gear criterion as failure then the biggest number of failures s far more likely to be on a sport route - probably one which is relatively easy (so lots of people try it) but with a very bouldery crux (so few people get it first go).
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Monkey_Alan & Deacon:

I think this has to be limited to trad routes, since with sport or bouldering I guess you haven't really failed until you're dead and you can't have another go.
deacondeacon - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to john arran: Thats why I put quietus up, much more likely to get the dangle of shame rather than the downclimb.
Joe G - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> It'll obviously be a grit route (more ascents + very back-offable), here's a few that might be contenders:
>

Really? What about the Cuillin Ridge? People must have been trying to have a go at it for well over a hundred years, and there are loads of places to bail out, not to mention loads of reasons for bailing out.
mkean - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to john arran:
I think down climbing isn't a failure; inverting accidentally, vomitting on your belayer or crying like a distressed toddler probably are though.

Why doesn't the log book have an option for "Onsight but so frightened I had to burn my trousers afterwards"?
deacondeacon - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: Fair enough but you might be pushing it putting Charlies overhang in as a trad route ;)
(thats coming from someone who has never been on it mind)
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to john arran:

I think for this purpose, backing off is a failure. And sometimes the distinction is not clear-cut: if I reverse a bit of Charlie's Overhang and drop off onto a pad (as I have done about 20 times), did I back off or fail? Both I would say! A route that is constantly backed off has the characteristics I'm interested in.
john arran - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Then it's probably Remergence ;-)
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to deacondeacon:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) Fair enough but you might be pushing it putting Charlies overhang in as a trad route ;)
> (thats coming from someone who has never been on it mind)

It's on the cusp, but I for one am not up for falling off after fully committing to the mantel. I have seen a few people rescued from that position though (been given an extra handhold).
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to john arran:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Then it's probably Remergence ;-)

OK, ok. For it to be a failure, you have to have intended to get to the top! Happy now?
Pagan - on 31 Jan 2013
Pagan - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Skyfall:

> I suspect Finale HVS+!!! (as per the guide) at Shepherds sees a fair amount of airtime

Not according to the logbooks - which is hardly surprising, what with it being quite steady at HVS (the "++" in the guide is clearly nonsense; it's far from desperate at the grade).
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Joe G:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> [...]
>
> Really? What about the Cuillin Ridge? People must have been trying to have a go at it for well over a hundred years, and there are loads of places to bail out, not to mention loads of reasons for bailing out.

Yeah alright. Good lateral thinking (not being a rock climb).
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Pagan:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Masochism:
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15633

I was hoping we'd end up with a list of Joe Brown routes!
Rachel Slater - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

The File has loads
Joe G - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Joe G)
> [...]
>
> Yeah alright. Good lateral thinking (not being a rock climb).

Aye, I suppose it is quite literally lateral!
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to r fizzle:

It's funny how all these routes are jamming cracks eh?
Steve Perry - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: Flying Buttress Direct must be up there.
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Steve Perry:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) Flying Buttress Direct must be up there.

Yup. I failed on most of the grit classics mentioned so far (some I've been back and done fine, others not).
syv_k - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Verandah Buttress has a steady stream of visitors who wander to the bottom, wriggle, flail for a bit, and then walk away muttering. Though I expect few bother logging it.
The Ex-Engineer - on 31 Jan 2013
On a personal level - Desperation at Stanage. I've had more failed attempts on that than any other trad route I've tried.

Also the 2nd pitch of Embankment 1 at Millstone. I've ended up dogging that several times now (although admittedly that was when it was still a total sandbag at E1 5b).
Al Evans on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: In terms of classic grit routes done in pure style on first attempt I think it has to be Quietus. I never, even when climbing at my best got it nailed clean on the first attempt. I still think it's undergraded at 5c, actually for an onsight clean I think it might be 6b, but then again I was always shit at overhangs.
pork pie girl - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: cuillin ridge traverse.. too weather dependent .. and forbes arete... too conditions dependant esp now with climate change
alan moore - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I go to Bowden Doors at least once a year. Every visit I pump out and fail on Canada Crack. On a good day I fail on it twice. I'd like to think other people do the same...
jonnie3430 - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Joe G)
> [...]
>
> ...(not being a rock climb).

Ravens Gully on the Buachaille isn't a rock climb either (I don't know what it is, just the fairly competent rock climbing up to E2 approach failed.)

It's in Hard Rock as well, so must get more suitors than is reflected in the logbook on here. I would imagine that there hasn't been many clean onsights ever.
Skyfall - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Pagan:

re Finale

> Not according to the logbooks - which is hardly surprising, what with it being quite steady at HVS (the "++" in the guide is clearly nonsense; it's far from desperate at the grade).

Er, the logbook shows precisely that. More "climbed" than "onsight". Looks like most have voted for it to be hard at HVS. Many comments about it being pumpy for HVS etc.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=7531

If you were climbing E5 when you did Finale maybe you couldn't actually tell...?
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> What do you reckon the route is with the biggest number of failures - or biggest proportion of failures?
>
> [Has to be a reasonably popular route, I've already thought of the smart-arse answer "Wuthering Direct Start - 100%" or similar.]
>
> It'll obviously be a grit route (more ascents + very back-offable),

I'm interested that you see grit as being back-offable. I find it harder to downclimb grit than limestone for example because the moves are often balancy with less positive handholds. Are you talking about height?
Rachel Slater - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Skyfall:
> (In reply to Pagan)
>
> re Finale

I think Finale is quite a bit easier than most E1s at Shepherds and not too hard for HVS either.
Skyfall - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to r fizzle:

I've done physically easier E1's at Shepherds and other places. Finale is very safe really, hence why it's HVS.

I'm not sure why I'm getting drawn into this. I just put it foward as one that is very fall off'able and one that is (relatively safely) fallen off a lot. As I said, the logbook does actually support this with more "climbed" than "clean onsight". And read the comments.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. And I'm 100% sure there are other routes see more failures.
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
>
> I'm interested that you see grit as being back-offable. I find it harder to downclimb grit than limestone for example because the moves are often balancy with less positive handholds. Are you talking about height?

I back off grit routes left right and centre. Traversing off is often an option, and there are plenty of routes with a crux at a perfectly down-climbable position. Then of course there are the committing routes where you do an irreversible move and then find it gets harder..."TOP ROPE!!! TOP ROPE!!!" . I've done all of those, on multiple occasions, as well as countless dangle-of-shames.
Russell Lovett - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Skyfall: Finale at shepherds. Remember doing ityears ago and shouting down at my belayerin a blind panic to give me slack to clip a runner, his reply was there,s plenty of slack. And thete eas I eas just to pumped to pull up enough to clip the runner. Anyone who says this route is not hard for the grade must be joking the week before I crused Left wall no problems I can see how people think this a contender for the most failed on route per atemted ascent.
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) In terms of classic grit routes done in pure style on first attempt I think it has to be Quietus. I never, even when climbing at my best got it nailed clean on the first attempt. I still think it's undergraded at 5c, actually for an onsight clean I think it might be 6b, but then again I was always shit at overhangs.

Good to hear that! When I failed outright (lower-off of shame after multiple attempts turning the lip) I too pronounced it to be 6b.
Hannes on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: What is that HVD 5a at stanage called? I think a fair few people have bailed before even getting off the ground, me included.
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Hannes: Veranda Buttress - but does it count as a failure if you use combined tactics?
Jimbo C - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Roof route at Rivelin must be a contender. Nice and easy to go and have a look, easyish to the lip and then very droppable.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9733

Other routes of a similar nature like Jeepers Creepers are also up there (c'mon Joe Brown!)
alasdair19 on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to jonnie3430: If failing at the road counts then it might be a contender. allmost nobody does carnivore either.

How far did they get? Was it a GUMClub team. A good friend from the club on sigted it in winter.

Surely it's flying buttress direct, certainly for total route failures probably for percentages too I'd think.
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jimbo C:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Roof route at Rivelin must be a contender. Nice and easy to go and have a look, easyish to the lip and then very droppable.
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9733
>
> Other routes of a similar nature like Jeepers Creepers are also up there (c'mon Joe Brown!)

Yup. Undercut Crack, Cave Crack and Harvest must also see their fair share. I refuse to try any of them.
Jon Stewart - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Hang on, the answer is obvious:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9873

Just look at the fail rate in those logbooks.
paul mitchell - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: Chequer's Crack?Getting harder as it gets more polished.
Al Evans on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to paul mitchell:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) Chequer's Crack?Getting harder as it gets more polished.

Chequers Crack, it used to be a standard solo?
spidermonkey09 - on 31 Jan 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: Chequers Crack is nails at the grade as far as I can tell, safe as houses but that first crack is absolutely desperate and worth E1 by itself. The good foothold is also polished beyond belief. Very few people I know have onsighted it- 2 at most.
deacondeacon - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Hang on, the answer is obvious:
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9873
>
> Just look at the fail rate in those logbooks.

have you looked at the amount of dnf's on Masochism
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15633
at least most people eventually get up the vice.
I think a trip to Ramshaw is on the cards when it eventually dries out.


mike123 - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:if you are including sport i d have thought consenting adults , i d say it sees very few onsights, unless its been upgraded ?
jayjackson - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I guess the most famous would be Strawberries, if you're looking at a ratio of attempts:onsights, although I realise this falls a bit out of the reasonably popular requirement in the OP
Fraser on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Monkey_Alan:

> I'd say it's more likely to be a sport route - people more likely to try something harder - and repeatedly.

Agreed. My vote is "Hamish Teddys Excellent Adventure" at Dunkeld. It's frequently sieged by numerous parties or individuals (including myself)and is a good length, top quality route at F7b+. Plus, it's very often dry when other routes or crags are soaking, so can be climbed pretty much all year round. It's also very hard to onsight, (unless you've the stamina of an ox) as the holds and sequences only reveal themselves slowly after many attempts.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=43876
Jon Stewart - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to deacondeacon:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
>
> have you looked at the amount of dnf's on Masochism
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15633
> at least most people eventually get up the vice.

Haha yes.

> I think a trip to Ramshaw is on the cards when it eventually dries out.

Definitely. Your lead! (Definitely get on Gumshoe btw, brilliant bouldery route with very cool moves.)
deacondeacon - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: Yep, I'll (try) to lead it and we can do all the Hen Cloud classics that i've neglected to do too.

Off topic but i'm not about this weekend, got family over.
Offwidth - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Hate to be logical 'n all but it has to be on a very popular crag and have stars and causing trouble for those in the modal grade range. Hence I'd also say Verandah Buttress by some distance (and yes combined tactics is a fail as the route is graded 5b and if you don't do the move you dont get the tick). The real grade for the route is still more like S 4c of course. As for some of your others I know someone only about 10 routes off completing the Rockfax EG top 500 and The Vice still awaits a clean ascent. Even then Masochism may be harder for its grade. As for Charlies, everyone I've watched have a serious go, got it quickly (the fear always visible on that top-out)... so you must be a wuss ;-)
deacondeacon - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Offwidth: If someone only has around 10 of the top 500 routes rockfax routes left, then they must be climbing E4 or above. Surely the only reason they haven't climbed the file clean is because they haven't bothered to go and do it.
It's a little tricky for a VS but I wouldn't say it was a sandbag.
deacondeacon - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to deacondeacon: Cancel that, im an idiot getting The Vice And The File mixed up :)
Ciderslider - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: +1 for Flying Buttress Direct (and I just know that when I grow a pair big enough to have a go at leading it I'll be one of those failures )
Simon_Sheff - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> As for some of your others I know someone only about 10 routes off completing the Rockfax EG top 500 and The Vice still awaits a clean ascent. Even then Masochism may be harder for its grade. As for Charlies, everyone I've watched have a serious go, got it quickly (the fear always visible on that top-out)... so you must be a wuss ;-)


Best to comment on routes you've actually done I think!

I vote for chequers crack
ads.ukclimbing.com
Al Evans on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Simon_Sheff: It's only hard if you mess about filling all the best jams up with nuts in the lower crack, just bomb that bit and the upper crack is VS.
Simon_Sheff - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Simon_Sheff) It's only hard if you mess about filling all the best jams up with nuts in the lower crack, just bomb that bit and the upper crack is VS.


I completely agree with you Al. But the OP was about routes that people fail on a lot. Chequers crack is classic for that. I've lost count of the amount of times people have had epic failures on it.
People like me who back in the day marched up as a 'competent' E1 leader and did exactly what you said above :-)
Offwidth - on 01 Feb 2013
In reply to Simon_Sheff:

"Best to comment on routes you've actually done I think!"

...and you a responsible grown-up family man 'n all
Big Lee - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

For winter routes Compression Crack could be a contender:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=41811

Amazing how many people bail from the this route without tackling the final crux pitch but then log the climb as ticked. In truth probably over 50% DNF.
alicia - on 04 Feb 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Hang on, the answer is obvious:
>
> http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=9873
>
> Just look at the fail rate in those logbooks.

As soon as I read your first post, I thought of this. Although maybe that was just a desperate wish for it to be not just me that found it impossible!

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