/ Confused on grading
I'm a bit confused on the grading on a route. Now this may be a simple one but I have to ask.
If a route is graded as a HVS that's obv a lead climb and graded. If u top rope the climb does it maintain the same grade?
Might sound stupid but I just don't know
I'm guessing it may do as the route doesnt change just the method in which I get upit
Grading is a funny old business.
If you top rope an HVS 5a then it is still a 5a. Is it still an HVS? Hmm, in name only I guess.
Yes, it maintains the same grade, it's just that you top-roped an HVS rather than led one.
It remains an HVS in name only. The adjectival part of the climb has been nullified by the top rope
Second question: Again no it is nothing like. Most indoor walls use the French Sport climbing grading system and it is very difficult to make comparisons. I know 7a indoor climbers who cannot lead HVS climbs. For what it's worth and it's not a lot,a climb graded F6b equates to UK 5c in purely technical terms but placing gear and finding the correct line can be difficult for those who have started indoors and in most cases dramatically curtails their trad ambitions.
Top roping a trad route is far easier than leading it. On lead you'll hang around longer to place gear, and will make moves more statically than if you were on top rope.
As stated it obviously makes the route easier. Cheers guys
> It remains an HVS in name only. The adjectival part of the climb has been nullified by the top rope
Not the 'sustainediness' of it
> PS Climbing more than 4 years and you still don't understand?
The grade is just a number (or equivalent) in a book or on a server somewhere. How you tackle the route will determine your experience of it but it won't alter the number in the book.
It gets a little more complicated where enough people over a long enough time tackle a particular route in a particular style for whatever reason (eg soloing as a warm-up or redpointing a bold slab) which skews their perspective and eventually skews the results of grade voting on sites like this which can eventually feed back to guidebook grades. I don't think that's really what you were asking though is it?
Generally routes feel easier to top-rope. There's no weight of rope and you're free to commit more fully to low probability moves.
At indoor walls the grading seems to go up to 5+ then from 6 upwards it's 6a, b,c etc sometimes even 6a+ like one I climbed last night. I do find the mixing up of a, b and c with + or - somewhat confusing, particularly as every grade is so subjective anyway.
As for trad if you are doing a multi pitch HVS surely it's HVS for the whole party whether second or leader? The only unwritten understanding is that it's more serious for the leader, or leaders if you are leading through. No guide book would say "HVS for the leader, Severe for the second", would it?
The climb will always appear in the guidebook as HVS 5a with no qualification howevert The HVS 5a experience is supposed to refer to the on sight lead experience.
If you top rope it the guidebook won't change - you will just get a very different experience. Guidebooks do not try to grade specifically for a top rope experience. There are no bragging rights associated with top ropes.
I've been climbing 20 years, and there are no routes in my logbook...
> PS Climbing more than 4 years and you still don't understand?
Oh come off it! I've been climbing for over 50 years and I still don't understand! :)
When I started the only grades were
There were no technical grades, no indoor walls and bouldering was something you mucked about on large rocks near your camp site, apart from at Font where colour graded circuits existed (I think even then although I didn't go there until much later).
It is of interest to note that there were however, numerical grades on Southern Sandstone with a table relating to an adjectival system as follows:-
Moderate (and easy) 1A
Moderately Difficult 1B
Difficult, easy 2A
" hard 2B
Very Difficult, easy 3A
" medium 3B
" hard 4A
Severe easy 4B
" medium 5A
" hard 5B
Very Severe 6
The Guide Book Stated "It was taken as axiomatic that no climb on an outcrop can be classified as Grade 6 because this is reserved for high mountains....of mountain length....inescapable and involve great technical difficulty and the handling of veggetation and poor quality rock". In the 1947 guidebook 5B was the highest classification used. The 1956 guidebook introduced a grade of 5C as more difficult climbs began to be done.
It's not quite as simple as that however and variations will always come to light. For example, occasionally a climb can be just as/more dangerous for the second. A poorly protected traverse pitch with gear before the crux would be an example of this. Best thing to do would be to claim an 'HVS 5a' but make sure you say it was on top rope/second.
The HVS grade is for leading the climb. A lot of the answers here are equivalent and differ only by semantics:
* You climbing a UK technical grade 5A
* You top roped an HVS
* You climbed an HVS in name only
all mean more or less the same thing. The climb, of course, remains HVS 5a.
Ultimately it really doesn't matter as long as you don't kid yourself (or misrepresent yourself) that this was the same as leading it. Mind you, if you do kid yourself and this was your limit, you'll quickly realise the error of your ways when to attempt to lead the next HVS!
While a lot of people treat grades as bragging rights or a ladder to climb or a motivational tool, the primary purpose of grades and guidebooks is so you can choose routes appropriate to you ability so you can enjoy climbing.
> the primary purpose of grades and guidebooks is so you can choose routes appropriate to you ability so you can enjoy climbing.
Good answer. French grading of course encourages exactly the opposite. :-)
I must say that I always have to apply a degree of interpretation to any grade anyway, so can't really just use grade as a measure of if I can climb a route or not. If it's juggy and steep, I will have to drop my grade considerably when compared to something requiring reach, flexibility and cunning.
" . . . i see you've been climbing for more than 4 years yet only 15 routes in logbook tut tut."
I've been climbing for 48 years and have kept a diary of each and every route but you won't see it - why would anyone but me be interested in it?
Now i have quite a few climbing buddies, but before when i've asked for partners i'd only go with someone who's got a history as at the end of the day it's your life on the end of the rope.
> Spot on!
> The climb will always appear in the guidebook as HVS 5a with no qualification howevert The HVS 5a experience is supposed to refer to the on sight lead experience.
6a move right off the ground?
Worth noting that a UKC logbook is a trust based system, someone could log routes they have never been anywhere near. Also many people may choose to make their guidebook secret, or just forget to update it (the case with the op?)
Pretty obvious BS. The adjectival grade must take into account the difficulty of doing the moves. Even above the softest landing in the world a 6a move would be not much below VS.
Isn't this one of those cases - like Balcony Buttress or Sunset Slab - where guidebook writers bend the rules a bit because it feels like a better and more useful description of the route?
Multipitch grades have caught me out before thinking it only extends to the crux pitch.
E3 5c,5b,5b. etc
I think, "I let the manly man take the crux pitch and i'll mop up the easier stuff which is probaly only E1 5b as an individual pitch" ....and then end up bricking it because I've suddenly found myself on a pitch which didn't feel far off E2/3 5b. Doh.
I think you mean Verandah Buttress (which is really S 4c when you know the trick) so at HVD 5b there is a big gap to M 6a. Sunset Slab is almost definitive HVS 4b these days and is only one tech grade off a pretty common grade and IMHO an excellent use of the UK system.
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