/ Tempt the misses into a new rack...

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Oo on 25 Feb 2013
The misses and I have both started climbing, learnt with mates, etc. We've now borrowed mates' gear plenty times and so it's time to take the plunge before summer comes and the deals melt away with the frost. We've both got 'seconding gear' (harness, belay plate, crab x2, prussiks, chalk bag, helmet, nutkey) and a 60m single rope mainly used for leading indoors so far.

THE CHALLENGE
Climbing is definitely 'my thing' and so I have to confront the ever thrifty better half with a rack deal too good to refuse. So far I've got:

6x 18cm Prowires
6x 25cm Prowires
(1 of each draw broken down for racking biners)
104.94 http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Quickdraws-2/Quickdraws/Needle-Sports-...


1-11 Wallnut
7-11 Offsets
1-4 Torque nuts
134.99 - http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=69_64&products_id=5903&oscsid=s0o8m...

11mm Dynema slings
1 x 240cm sling
2 x 120cm sling
3 x 60cm sling
39 http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4816

DMM Aero Screwgate x5
37.76 http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Karabiners/Standard-Screwgates/Aero-Sc...

This brings the total to 316.69.

Can you do any better?
Any tips?
Anything I've missed?

and what to do about cams... I've used 4CUs and I can't see that they're worth the money, I think they're horrid. I quite like the BD Camalots, but they are pricey. Anyone know any good deals? What are the best sizes for starters? Will be moving to Bristol and climbing in the vicinity.

All help advice and general mocking appreciated.

Ta in advance, Oo
Northern Climber on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo: Inglesport have the 5 x aero screwgates slightly cheaper if my memory recalls correct.

might not work out cheeper with postage though!
spidermonkey09 - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo: You can save a few quid by getting only 10 quickdraws, they are cheaper in packs of 5 normally and you don't need 12 for most trad i don't reckon. same goes for offsets, useful but maybe buy later when she isn't looking!
Slings- get 1 240 and 2 120's, should be fine for most stuff, i've never wanted a 60 on trad. 1 at most.
cams- helium friends are cheap on crag x
screwgates- ring v12 and get them to check their seconds bin!
The Ex-Engineer - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo: As regards the proposed rack in general, several points:

- Prowires are great value (I used them for years when they were cutting edge) but they are probably the worse krab ever for racking wires on. You should buy something else for that. I use keylock bent gates (Petzl Spirit), some use BD Wireovals, others use various wiregates.

- You'll probably need more than 4 loose wiregates in total, once you consider racking the T Nuts and what you're doing with your 60cm slings.

- You could easily swap a couple of screwgates for extra wriegates. Not counting belay krabs, two screwgates per person is perfectly adequate although many do carry more.
Double Knee Bar - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo: you could drop 2 screwgates, the offsets, and the hexes and maybe get 3 cams to cover the sizes up from your wires?
They cost more yes, but they offer a lot of placements that aren't available with just passive protection.
What will you be climbing on mostly?
I've never needed that many slings. One of each size would see you well.
LukeyG - on 25 Feb 2013
The Ex-Engineer - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:
> Can you do any better?

Yes :-)

When you really want to keep costs down, Go Outdoors' pledge to beat any price by 10% is really useful:

Wild Country Nitro quickdraw 15cm (arguably much better than prowires)
9.50 http://www.rockrun.com/products/Wild-Country-Nitro-Quickdraw-15cm.html
*8.55 price matched at Go Outdoors http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/nitro-15cm-quickdraw-p162495

Clog Midi HMS (ok kit, they're not keylock, but might be worth buying 1-2)
5.56 http://www.tiso.com/shop/clog/midi_hms_screwgate_karabiner/
*5.00 price matched at Go Outdoors http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/wild-country-clog-hms-midi-screwgate-p123312

Slings (you can get 7 for 1.40 more than same price of your 6, keep the extra one it or sell it on here):
1x 240cm 12.50 http://www.rockrun.com/products/Wild-Country-Dyneema-Sling-10mm-x-240cm.html
3x 120cm 16.95 http://www.rockrun.com/products/Wild-Country-Dyneema-Sling-10mm-x-120cm-3-Pack.html
3x 60cm 10.95 http://www.rockrun.com/products/Wild-Country-Dyneema-Sling-10mm-x-60cm-3-Pack.html
Total: 40.40
{Top-tip - sign up to RockRun's Twitter feed as they offer free postage about once a month.)
neuromancer - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:

Find a friend who lives in the US and buy a c4 .50 - 3 set, works out to 30 a cam, less if on offer (backcountry.com are best)
anaesthetic on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to LukeyG: Outdoor shop have great prices, have bought there before, good service. Didn't realise they did BD cams, hope still some left when I next have a payday! GO also do BD cams, I usually wait for their 20% off climbing gear promo.
teh_mark - on 25 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:

Drop two quickdraws as mentioned and rack your three 60cm slings on wiregates as slingdraws - thirteen quickdraws/slingdraws should be enough to see you up anything.

Depending on what you plan on climbing, you could drop the offsets for now. A set of Wallnuts and a set of Torque nuts were more than enough to see me up my first leads.
andic - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:

Seems a decent rack to start with, couple of things I might change depending if i wanted to shave a bit off the cost(1), or have everything i need into the higher grades(2).

(1) Packs of QDs are a bit cheaper I think they are usually 5s, but 2 pks (10) is okay for most routes, Leave the offsets for now they are great but one set of wall nuts will be okay for easy single pitch stuff, slings are pretty handy at belays but you could drop the 60cm slings though unless you plan to use them as draws, SGs I would just get 2 more one for in the anchor on your best piece and one to clip back into your rope/belay loop. You aught to get some oval wites to rack your nuts on and a pack of five wire gates to rack your torque nuts on individually, put the slings round your shoulder it looks cooler! maybe 50 quid cheaper?
(2) All your rack above plus 12 wiregates to turn the 60cm slings into extendable draws and rack the 2 120cm and the torque nuts, rack your 240 on an aero, 3 ovalwires to rack your nuts/offsets on (small, large, offset/odd, even whatever) I'd also add some cams something like dragons sizes 1,2,3 maybe one more, to start with racked on their own individual crabs. about 150 quid more?

Agree with the above advice to take advantage of go-outdoors price match too, I have had some steals!
jkarran - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:

Looks nice.

Personally I'd not bother with the 240cm sling, one of the 120s or the screwgates, I'd also get a pack of budget krabs for racking, keep the salvaged Prowires for slings/draws.

Unless you plan to specialise in the limestone and if the budget allows I'd personally look for a deal on 3 cams in place of the hexes. There's nothing wrong with 4CU except for the feel of the metal trigger on the metal wire which is neither here nor there functionally.

That just reflects what I'd pick to take with me and/or miss if you handed me that lot for a day out.

jk
gethin_allen on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:
I'd get a set of DMM 4CUs, they are really tidy bits of kit and very well priced if you get a set from somewhere like Joe Browns.
As said above, don't bother with the offsets unless you are climbing purely limestone (it's the only place I've found to place them). and if you are buying cams I'd half the number of hexes to 2 in the larger sizes.
Also, DMM aeros are supper beefy so you could probably just get something small and cheap.
Matt250 on 26 Feb 2013
For the 60cm slings V12 do 4 for the price of 3 so that's another sling for no extra cost. It's a seperate option on the site though.

Use 2 of them to make extendable draws and loose some of the 25cm qds.

Get some cams if can afford them. Joe Brown do Dragons for 40 each IF you buy 3 or more.
999thAndy on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:

I wouldn't buy it all in one hit - spread it out over several paydays - you won't feel the pain as much.
Toerag - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to gethin_allen:
> As said above, don't bother with the offsets unless you are climbing purely limestone (it's the only place I've found to place them).

They're quite useful over here (granite & gneiss).
To the OP - medium/large cams - 4CUs are fine, but on anything size 1 or smaller you'll find they don't fit in pockety cracks very well due to the wire loop coming off the end of the axle. Singlestem cams are much better in that respect, with the size 1 Dragon having the narrowest headwidth of anything in it's size range. There's no point in having cheap, light cams when they won't fit in placements when you really need them to!
I'd also get a small pink tricam - if you can fit your thumb in a hole you can put the tricam in it :-). Use ovals for racking wires as suggested by others.
Ramblin dave - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to Double Knee Bar:
> (In reply to Oo)
> What will you be climbing on mostly?

This is a good question...
Oo on 26 Feb 2013
Thanks for all the tips. In response:
- will drop 2 draws in favour of some oval racking krabs, BD wire ones look good
- slings are a V12 bundle, they're about what I want and have used before, 60s will become extender/alpine draws as and when needed
- nuts, offsets, torque nuts are another V12 bundle and seem like a good deal to me, have found offsets handy in the past
- Ill look at the nitro draws, people say buy in packs of 5 and they're cheaper but i haven't found anything beating needlesports
- will investigate go outdoors price match
- so far have mainly climbed grit as I live in derby, but when I move down to Bristol soon I'll be climbing whatever is around there, venturing into wales for some multipitch (which will require a bit of borrowed gear on top) when i can.

Thanks!
The Ex-Engineer - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:
> - nuts, offsets, torque nuts are another V12 bundle and seem like a good deal to me, have found offsets handy in the past

It is actually DMM who sell the 3 sets as a bundle at a slightly reduced price, although not many retailers have it as an option.

Also, I think you are completely correct, they are a good deal. I would heartily recommend going with it now rather than buying the Offsets later on. Although it is worth considering immediately re-selling the TNuts 1 and/or 4 (sizes 2 & 3 are most useful) and putting the money towards a size 3/3.5 cam in the short/medium term.
TRip - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:
> venturing into wales for some multipitch (which will require a bit of borrowed gear on top) when i can.
>
> Thanks!

Sounds like you've got a good set up. However it is common misconception that you need more gear for multipitch. What you are proposing to buy is more than adequate for low grade multipitch.

With regard to quickdraws, whilst there is nothing wrong with DMM Prowires or WC Nitros, for 1 extra per draw I would definitely get DMM Sprectre 2. They're lighter, stronger and a better shape. They're also a good shape for racking wires.

http://needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Quickdraws-2/Quickdraws/Spectre2-Quickdraw...

Like the Ex-Engineer I would recommend selling biggest Torque nut and your Wallnut 11 (why they make these things I do not know!) to recoup some your costs.

Have fun!
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jayrenegade - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to TRip:

I'm a bit unsure as to why people think that the big hex isn't very good. I've fallen on mine, very useful. It was ages before I had the money to get a full cam range, and it was useful to take it on routes where you could see a spot to put it. Maybe it's about what level you climb or what rock type, but I certainly found it useful. I'd say theres some good advice on here though. If your climbing a lot of limestone I'd say a second set of 1-6 nuts would come in handy. I always seem to run out of them on limestone routes. Joe browns had a deal on WC rocks 1-10 for 60 which is cheaper than a set of wallnuts, and gives you more variation and more sizes than the offsets, (though i appreciate the set deal is very good).

I just found the link. http://www.joe-brown.com/outdoor-equipment/wild_country_rocks_set_18

Also I went into V12 a little while ago, and the guy matched loads of prices for me, ended up buying everything on my shopping list from them rather than having to get everything from a bunch of places, and they gave me a free rope bag at the end. Nothing beats face to face shopping IMHO.
Ramblin dave - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to jayrenegade:
> (In reply to TRip)
>
> I'm a bit unsure as to why people think that the big hex isn't very good. I've fallen on mine, very useful. It was ages before I had the money to get a full cam range, and it was useful to take it on routes where you could see a spot to put it. Maybe it's about what level you climb or what rock type, but I certainly found it useful.

Yeah, me too. I don't always carry it but for easy gritstone jamming cracks it's brilliant. Clunk clip, every trip...
Richard Alderton - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:

A bit late to this, but there are a couple of good deals about:

Pack of 5 Xenon quick draws for 39 at R&R.
http://www.rockrun.com/products/Wild-Country-Xenon-Lite-Trad-5-Pack.html

7.80 each, and a bit lighter than the Spectres. Having said that. Buy some extra Spectres QDs from the Needlesport link that TRip mentioned. Chuck the middle bit away and you have a couple of superb lightweight krabs for 4.50 each! (RRP 8) I would agree that Prowire krabs are not much fun for racking. Just about OK for a single cam or hex, but I'd still not buy them again.

Twelve QDs might be slight overkill, but they will end up useful on long pitches, even if not straight away. So if you get a good deal, don't be afraid to invest!

You can get the passive pro a fair bit cheaper if you don't mind changing brands.

- WC Classic Rocks 1-10 40 at Rock & Run
http://www.rockrun.com/products/Wild-Country-Classic-Rock-Set.html

- WC Rockcentric 5,6,7,8 + free racking krab 40 Needlesport
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Wires-Nuts/Nuts/Rockcentrics-567-and-8...
(* caveat - I haven't used these. Torque nuts are probably better. Either way, that's expensive for 4 hexes!)

- DMM Offset nuts 38. The Outdoor Shop
http://www.theoutdoorshop.com/showPart.asp?part=PN19101&utm_source=Product_feed&utm_medium=g...

Total 118. Or, better still, leave the offsets for now and keep an eye out for a better offer. You would probably save at least another tenner.

Cams. Hmm. In Derbyshire you'll want lots. On the limestone, not so many. Depends how much you'll be back in the Peak, I suppose. I regret buying 4cus, and I'm, gradually trying to swap them out. They are so tempting at that price though.

Keep an eye out for sets 1/2/3 or 1.5/2.5/3.5. You may well find yourself climbing with new partners in Bristol, so it might make sense to wait a bit, and buy cams which complement his/ her rack?
Stone Muppet - on 27 Feb 2013
So, you're moving to Bristol. The Avon gorge is pretty adventurous trad - loose in patches, and occasionally long runouts followed by clusters of dubious gear. Basically you're a braver man than I if you try to tackle it with only 10 quickdraws, so if I were you I'd ignore the advice about cutting down on quickdraw numbers. If anything, buy three sets of five!

Nothing wrong with 4CUs I like my new ones.

Are those torque nuts as big as the old rockcentrics 6-10? Waste of space if they're not, you might as well use nuts. If they are that big, then whether you use them at all or just stick to cams is a personal choice. Personally I find hex type things more reassuring on loose limestone.

On the financial side, having enough gear to enjoy climbing in the Gorge, which is right on your doorstep, will mean you can save a fortune on climbing wall entry fees.
Ramblin dave - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to Stone Muppet:

> Are those torque nuts as big as the old rockcentrics 6-10?

Approx 5-9, I think. In slightly bigger steps ie four of them cover that range rather than five.

They also stack quite nicely, if you climb offwidths and like novelty placements.
The Ex-Engineer - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> Approx 5-9, I think. In slightly bigger steps ie four of them cover that range rather than five.

Correct. See http://rockclimbingcompany.blogspot.co.uk/2009/08/dmm-torque-nuts-why-they-work-better.html for an excellent explanation from their designer.
beardy mike - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo: If you are moving to bristol , then here is what I would get (having climbed there since 1996):

1-10 dmm wallnuts - I find these better than rocks around here as they sit in knobbly cracks better than less complex shaped nuts.
Offsets, including some of the brassies - they aren't for the brave they are for the sensible round here Learn to place them and they will save your bacon on many occasions..
10 Quickdraws sounds about right to me, especially for easy grade routes. 4 should be sling draws.
Cams from friend size 1-2.5 or 0.4 - 2 BD
2-3 120 mm slings
4 lockers.

Done.

Avon and wye rely on small gear. Microcams are quite useful too but to start off with you won't need them. Offsets really suit the pockets you get at goblin combe and cheddar. Cams are good in horitonal placements that you get at Wintours and Shorn cliffe. 10 extenders will see you up most sport routes at cheddar, the exceptions being far and few between and if you have the guide it tells you how many you'll need.
Stone Muppet - on 28 Feb 2013
In reply to mike kann: Very good point about sling draws. But I'd still go for 10 quickdraws plus four sling draws ;-)
beardy mike - on 28 Feb 2013
In reply to Stone Muppet: That's up to you isn't it. Flr the purposes of Oo, getting ten means it'll be more likely to pass the stringent "i'm spending money" test and buying a further 4 when he decides that he feels sketched out will then be a question of "well you wouldn't want me to die would you?" You've not been playing the relationship game long have you?
M0nkey - on 28 Feb 2013
In reply to Oo:

I'm just amazed that no-one so far has made any comment about your missus' rack yet.

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