/ Charity discounts

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climber david - on 26 Feb 2013

Hi

The scout group I'm part of are considering staarting to run crate climbing in our scout hall. We used to have all the kit when we ran it before but I wouldn't be over happy using some of it so we're looking to buy some new kit.

I've had a look around online and priced it all up, with the total coming to about 1200 without any discout so does anyone know of anywhere that would offer a discount on that size of order for a scout group?

Also, is it best to go directly to a manufacturer or to a retailer and who would you recommend, for price, service etc?

Thanks very much

David
Oceanrower - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to climber david: Ok. I'll ask. What word did you mean to use instead of crate?
marsbar - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to Oceanrower: I think crate was what he meant. Its fun. You have to build yourself a structure out of milk crates as you climb up it.

OP I think quite a few suppliers give discounts to Scout groups, ask your local suppliers I guess, or ask your County activity team for suggestions.
Oceanrower - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to marsbar: ok. Cheers, new one on me. Was racking my brains trying to think what the typo could be!
IainWhitehouse - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to climber david: Hi David, I would expect most independent shops would negotiate a discount for that sort of order. And for that matter many chain stores will probably do a Scout discount. Call some of them up an try.

Manufacturers suppliers is a less clear cut story. Some will be happy to help but perhaps not all because it's a lot of work to set up a business account for a one-off sale. Your other difficulty is in getting everything you need in one place. DMM will almost certainly do everything you need and are friendly as a rule so may be worth a try.

HTH Iain
The Ex-Engineer - on 26 Feb 2013
In reply to climber david: The first thing you should to do is contact your AAC Activities and find out who your County's Activities Assessor for Climbing is.

It is precisely their role to provide you with all the advice and training you need for this sort of thing.

The rules on crate stacking changed on 31 March 2012 and are now much stricter. Unless you hold a suitable climbing permit (which they obviously award), under POR 9.80 you are absolutely NOT allowed to conduct crate stacking without their explicit written approval (unless you are an ERCA rescue instructor). See http://members.scouts.org.uk/documents/POR%20Updates%20Jan%202012.pdf

Also, your Climbing Assessor will be competent to correctly condition your existing equipment as there is no reason most carabiners you have will not still be fully serviceable and there is a decent chance that the same will apply to ropes as they could potentially be conditioned as still suitable top-rope use.

Finally, 1200 seems steep. I often run crate staking with large groups and I doubt the kit we use comes to that much.
climber david - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

Thanks for the advice and link on this. I'm just enquiring at this stage but when it comes to training the plan was to get a site specific climbing permit limited to a permanently set up system only in our scout hall, i.e. puting on a harness, chest harness and helmet, tying in, belaying and lowering.

I got the 1200 figure for 12 harnesses, 12 chest harnesses, 12 helemts, 10 crabs, 1 40m rope (cut in two, the hall is less than 10m high) and 2 gri gris, the idea being that 2 groups of 6 can be run at the same time, provided there are 2 permit holders.

Thanks

David
CarolineMc - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to climber david: Cotswold do 20% off for Scouts, remember! And a lot of independents will do similar for scout groups - Alpenstock in Stockport for one. They'll also look for the best deals with the suppliers for you. With a tiny bit more kit you can also run prussicking sessions for the scouts! Co:
The Ex-Engineer - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to climber david: Lots of things to consider, especially for something to be classed as a 'permanent' facility. Rule 9.79 means you need a written operating manual signed off by a Technical Adviser and that will include every detail of what equipment is needed. Although. it does mean it is then fairly easy for people to be subsequently authorised to run it as an activity.

For instance, you need to consider whether you should be using full body harnesses (or sit harness + chest harness) for crate stacking. The Scout Association doesn't give any firm guidance on this, but Girlguiding UK actually mandates it - see http://guidingmanual.guk.org.uk/activities/a_to_z_of_activities/campfires_to_fencing/crate_stacking....

Full body harnesses with a rear connection point high up are probably ideal and if it is likely that Cubs will use it, they are a good option. They mean less chance of hitting the floor on rope stretch if falling backwards. Equally, plenty of people use sit harnesses with no great problem. This is the sort of thing you need to get advice on before you make too many plans.

When running crate stacking (one rope) what I'd want would be something like:
2x Full body harnesses (stacker + next person in the queue to put one on)
1x Sit harness with adult belayer (or 2x sit harnesses if Scouts swapping over)
1x Belay device + krab
3x Helmets, for belayer, stacker & crate passer (4x if someone is tailing the rope for the belayer) - everyone else should be kept far enough away not to need them.
1x Ground anchor (sandbag) if Scouts are belaying

What you run your rope through at the top anchor and which method you use to connect to the harness also needs some consideration. There are numerous options some of which are much better than others and you might need specific kit like steel carabiners, maillons, DMM Belaymasters or such like.

There are plenty of options but by rotating participants around you can certainly get away with fewer harnesses and helmets. For example I would far prefer having a proper ground anchor (as used in climbing walls) instead of extra harnesses.

Anyway, there should be advice available about all this at County level (and if failing that, at National level).
climber david - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
> (In reply to climber david) Lots of things to consider, especially for something to be classed as a 'permanent' facility. Rule 9.79 means you need a written operating manual signed off by a Technical Adviser and that will include every detail of what equipment is needed. Although. it does mean it is then fairly easy for people to be subsequently authorised to run it as an activity.

I read about that last night after looking at updated POR you linked to. We would take advice from regional/district activities advidor on who to sign off on the set up and where to go for training etc.
>
> For instance, you need to consider whether you should be using full body harnesses (or sit harness + chest harness) for crate stacking.
Chest harnesses would be used for smaller scouts, cubs and beavers i.e. anyone who could fall out of a sit harness


>
> When running crate stacking (one rope) what I'd want would be something like:
> 2x Full body harnesses (stacker + next person in the queue to put one on)
> 1x Sit harness with adult belayer (or 2x sit harnesses if Scouts swapping over)
> 1x Belay device + krab
> 3x Helmets, for belayer, stacker & crate passer (4x if someone is tailing the rope for the belayer) - everyone else should be kept far enough away not to need them.
> 1x Ground anchor (sandbag) if Scouts are belaying

The reason for 6 harnesses per rope was so that there wouldn't be too long spent on fitting harnesses and more time spent actually climbing. I definately see where you're coming from with 2 participant harnesses though

> What you run your rope through at the top anchor and which method you use to connect to the harness also needs some consideration. There are numerous options some of which are much better than others and you might need specific kit like steel carabiners, maillons, DMM Belaymasters or such like.

Again, we would take advice from an appropriate person on this

For example I would far prefer having a proper ground anchor (as used in climbing walls) instead of extra harnesses.
Unfortunately a proper ground anchor isn't an option in this case as the hall has to be multi purpose

Thanks for all your points though and taking the time to write them down :)

Cheers

David
marsbar - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to climber david:
From a safety and smooth running of activity angle it would be easier to supervise harness putting on as a one off for all participants at the start of the activity session, so having lots of harnesses would be a good idea, although more expensive. Similarly if all participants can be helmeted and checked at the beginning it is over and done with. Certainly something to think about and discuss with your advisor.

Is there any way that a ground anchor could be fitted under the floor surface and then covered up when not in use?
freerangecat - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to climber david:

Have just emailed you.
Cat
ads.ukclimbing.com
climber david - on 27 Feb 2013
In reply to marsbar:

Its a multi purpose sports type hall (we own it so thats not the issue) but any system would have to be flush with the rest of the floor and the expense of lifting a section, creating the anchor and designing a solid cover would be too much unfortunately. Again, an advisor may have an alternative idea

@freerangecat

Got your email, Brilliant link :)

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