/ recommend first nice first E2 in the peak

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jack01 - on 13 Mar 2013
any one recommend , a nice first E2 in the peak please thanks
johncoxmysteriously - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

Stiff Cheese, Froggatt.

Sentinel Crack at Chatsworth is also a good choice, although a bit harder.

Next!

jcm
jack01 - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

cheers i have a look at them
Al Evans on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Jesus John, you're not playing nice! I'd go for Darius, Scoop Wall or Flakes direct before those two bogies.
On quarried grit I'd say Billy Whizz, Erb, Suspense,Regent Street and Knightsbridge.
On natural grit Fern Hill, Tower Face Direct, The Rasp, Kayak and Five Finger Excercise.
jack01 - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
cheers will look at them , just looked at previous two , nit not realy appeal haha thank you
Jon Stewart - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

What are sort of route are you looking for? You're getting massively sandbagged above btw.

Total softy, ego tick? Pot Black, Yosemite Wall, Tower Face Direct (none are much more than HVS).

Bottom of the grade, a bit bold: Brown's Eliminate, Original Route (Rivelin Needle)

Bouldery, hard, safe: Midshipman,

Or if you're good at cracks and crimping, Knightsbridge is nice. Erb is a nice soft E2 at Millstone, probably a good choice overall, but there are lots of harder E1s out there.

Or if you want limestone, and don't mind it being crap, Double Scotch is a safe, soft route. Most other Stoney E2s are either high in the grade, or involve that nasty start off Windy Ledge. Chee Tor E2s are great, but they won't be in condition for ages. Beeston Tor has a fun soft E2 up the Pocket Symphony wall. High Tor has Delicatessen, which is OK but a bit bold, but Darius is much harder than many E3s.
GrahamD - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

Welcome to Hard Times (left hand finish)
Deaf Dove
Brightide
Dave Garnett - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

If you want something reasonably safe you could try Soyuz or Predator on Curbar, or Big Crack at Froggatt. For something a bit less well-known, Heart of Gold on Hen Cloud is really good and not scary apart from the last move (gear at your feet).

On limestone; Chee Tor has loads at this grade - Sunny Goodge Street, Goal of the Month, Match of the Day for a start.
Al Evans on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: I didn't intend my suggestions as sandbags, and in fact you have also suggested one or two of my suggestions. I guess it just shows horses for courses, plus some of the grades may have changed in the years since I did them (but not Stiff Cheese or Sentinel Crack).
Al Evans on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett: Nice of you to suggest one of mine :-)
johncoxmysteriously - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Al Evans:

Stiff Cheese was a serious suggestion, actually. It was my first E2, unless you count stuff like Brown's Eliminate and Kayak. Why not? It's very hard to hurt yourself and from what I remember the moves aren't too bad - they can't have been if I could do them.

jcm
James Oswald - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
"Billy Whizz"


The hardest of all the E2s I've done on grit (or on anything)!

Way harder than five finger, fern hill etc!

A pretty mean suggestion for a first E2 if you ask me! :)
Jonny2vests - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

Pic Tor has 4 good, soft E2s and well protected, apart from the right hand one if I remember right. Little gem of a place, picnic crag, hardly any polish.
jack01 - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: thanks guys for all your suggestions I will have a look at them all , I not biggest crack fan , I lean more towards slabs and vertical stuff . But thanks for input lots to look at :)
Jonny2vests - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to jack01)
>
> Welcome to Hard Times (left hand finish)

Are people climbing there again?
silo - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: Big crack ?
999thAndy on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to James Oswald:
Billy Whiz is straightforward to train for, if you can lead F6b+ indoors it should be easy. Fern Hill, while not as steep, is definitely more committing. It might be the way the ground drops away or something but I found Fern Hill harder.
Al Evans on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to James Oswald: I really don't think Billy Whiz is that hard, and the crux is easily and massively well protected, for gods sake it even was in the days of Moacs. The other thing is that I have tried to suggest good routes that will give a sense of satisfaction, Billy Whiz is way up there compared to routes like Stiff Cheese!
EeeByGum - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: I will nominate Tower Face Direct at Stanage Plantation.
GrahamD - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Oops - sorry - shows how long ago I was last there. Scrub Staden (unfortunately)
Jon Stewart - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to silo:
> (In reply to jack01) Big crack ?
Graded e1 in many books, which seems right to me
Cake - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: Is White Out, Rivelin still E2? In fact Rivelin is probably where I have had most success with E2s as they are soft probably. Outsider, April fool, Original Route

I thought the moves on Pearls, Chatsworth were great though if you trust the gear

Cake
Dave Garnett - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to James Oswald) I really don't think Billy Whiz is that hard, and the crux is easily and massively well protected,

Yes, but the first 20 feet aren't and the crux is not obvious and is hard onsight unless you are lucky and/or pretty fit.
Tom Last - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

Commander Energy
johncoxmysteriously - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Southern Man:

Good grief. Well, compared to Commander Energy or Billy Whizz I'm certainly sticking to my Stiff Cheese suggestion.

The easy-but-not-that-safe ones form a bit of a different category. If that's what someone's after then the traditional Tower Face Direct or Pot Black are fine.

jcm
Nigel Thomson - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: Darius, Regent Street or Billy Whiz
Nigel Thomson - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to the weegy: Or The Rasp.
AlanLittle - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to jack01)
>
> What are sort of route are you looking for? You're getting massively sandbagged above btw.
>
Sentinel Crack, Scoop Wall, Darius were the first three tongue in cheek sandbag suggestions that occurred to me and sure enough, there they were in the first few replies. Billy Whizz took a little longer, admittedly.

>
> Total softy, ego tick? ... Beeston Tor has a fun soft E2 up the Pocket Symphony wall.

Deaf Dove. I recall it being easier than Pocket Symphony, which in turn is a fairly easy E1

Rachel Slater - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:
> I lean more towards slabs and vertical stuff . But thanks for input lots to look at :)

I did Suspense as my first E2. If you like slabs/vertical that might suite you too? It has really good flat or positive crimps the whole way up.

Tom Last - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Did you think Commander Energy was hard or not that safe though?

I thought it was pretty steady, one tricky slab move and a heart-in-mouth but easy and protected finale. Could feel E1 on a good day, plus it's a great line with lovely climbing. What's not to like?
mataius - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: The Chant Direct Finish is a nice climb, short and really just the one move but above good protection. perhaps a little tough if your shorter.

Dave Todd - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

Brimstone (at Millstone) is very much 'low in the grade' if you fancy a gentle intro to E2...
Cake - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to r fizzle: I got spat off the crux of Suspense with dodgy gear in one of the vertical cracks. I nearly had a dip in the pond and got a nasty hit on the head.

Take good small gear for that one
Jon Stewart - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to Southern Man:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> Did you think Commander Energy was hard or not that safe though?
>
I thought the hard move on the slab had annoying mediocre gear, and the top part was terrifying due to how much the flake moves when you pull on it. With the in situ group below (and a foot to the side of the first part of the route, making it feel incredibly artificial when you're on that hard slab move), I was convinced I was going to be playing the key role in an appalling climbing tragedy as me and the flake pummetted onto the children below. Not one of my favourite routes, although the climbing on the top half is great and spectacular.
Jackwd - on 13 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: Brown's Eliminate at Froggatt, if you're good at slabs, a walk in the park.
jack01 - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to r fizzle:
> (In reply to jack01)
> [...]
>
> I did Suspense as my first E2. If you like slabs/vertical that might suite you too? It has really good flat or positive crimps the whole way up.

thats sounds good what crags that at ? thank you
GrahamD - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to AlanLittle:

Yes, Deaf Dove although I personally would call it noticeably harder than pocket symphony
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

Lawrencefield. Brilliant route, I think it's high in the grade. It starts off with a 5a solo up to some not great gear. Then it's 5b and exposed. Then you stack loads of tiny gear in some thin cracks which if you put enough in will make it perfectly safe. Then there's really hard moves in a fantastic situation, with a peg to clip on the way.

It's a brilliant route, the best crimpy wall climb I can think of in the Peak.
johncoxmysteriously - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

>It's a brilliant route, the best crimpy wall climb I can think of in the Peak.

What????

It's arguably not even the best crimpy wall climb at Lawrencefield!

jcm
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: you'll have to give some examples. You might be thinking of routes I'd call cracks
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Tom Last - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Hehe, painted a picture beautifully there Jon. I take your point. I had a crisp clear day, Roaches pretty much to ourselves and an early E2 for me - altogether different experience I guess.
PS, the flake didn't feel too bad at the time - maybe a lack of imagination is a boon sometimes? ;)
Anhibian - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: Billy Whiz!! fantastic route
d conacher - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy:
> (In reply to James Oswald)
> Billy Whiz is straightforward to train for, if you can lead F6b+ indoors it should be easy. Fern Hill, while not as steep, is definitely more committing. It might be the way the ground drops away or something but I found Fern Hill harder.

christ the indoor 6b+must be desperate
jshields - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Harsh ;)
Brian Rodgers - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:
Pic Tor is worth a look for E2's.
There is a good E1 warm up and then a choice of E2's in different styles.
999thAndy on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to d conacher: ? 1/2 of B.W. is an easy slab, the top 1/2 is slightly overhanging on perfect edges and cracks, very well protected just like doing 6b+ indoors in fact.

As I said easier to train for 'cos it's a physical route rather than Fern Hill which I found to be mentally intimidating, but physically easier.
johncoxmysteriously - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

To name only the first three that come to mind, Pool Wall, Wall Street Crash and Boys Will Be Boys.

Anyway, doesn't Suspense have a crack? It's been a long time, but that peg must be in something.

jcm
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> To name only the first three that come to mind, Pool Wall, Wall Street Crash and Boys Will Be Boys.

They're all a fair bit harder, though I'm sure they are better too. I guess I meant the best crimpy wall climb in the Peak that I've done (which isn't going to be harder than E3).

> Anyway, doesn't Suspense have a crack? It's been a long time, but that peg must be in something.

Suspense does have a crack, but it climbs on edges and the odd peg scar, no real crack climbing. I thought you might be thinking Billy Whizz, Boulevard or something.

The Peak doesn't have a whole lot of E2 crimpy walls. Brown's Eliminate is a good example, and Suspense is way better IMO.
Coel Hellier - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy:

> ... very well protected just like doing 6b+ indoors in fact.

No it isn't! Indoors 6b+ you only have to clip the bolts and go; on Billy Whizz you're hanging around placing gear. I'd rarely fail to onsight 6b+ indoors, but could probably not do BW without a couple of rests on gear.
999thAndy on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

I would have assumed that the OP would be proficient in placing gear, to be contemplating E2. There's loads of good gear on BW, and most of it's pretty straightforward to place.

I said *physically* the same as F6b+ indoors. If you can do an overhanging F6b+ on sight then you *physically* have the guns for Billy Whiz.

Nice profile pic BTW, shows that most overhanging lead walls are a lot steeper than BW ;-)
Coel Hellier - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy:

> There's loads of good gear on BW, and most of it's pretty straightforward to place.

Yes, that's right, but you're also placing it from strenuous positions in steep terrain, and even if you're very good at it (picking the right size nut first time, etc) that's going to tire you quickly.

> If you can do an overhanging F6b+ on sight then you *physically* have the guns for Billy Whiz.

I could likely second it cleanly, and I could likely lead it if it were bolted, but I'm fairly sure I couldn't do a clean lead.
Bulls Crack - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

How about the Pic Tor E2's - anyone do them anymore?

Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier)

> I said *physically* the same as F6b+ indoors. If you can do an overhanging F6b+ on sight then you *physically* have the guns for Billy Whiz.
>

Do you mean that the climbing on Billy Whiz is about f6b+? I would have thought that lots of people who can onsight f7a indoors will still fail on BW, because they'll get pumped placing gear.

People often seem to think that the difference between trad and sport is psychological, but of course it's really physical too. It takes so much longer to lead a trad route, so if it's sustained, the amount of stamina needed, much of which is hanging onto the holds with one hand while faffing with gear, is an enormous physical difference.

Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Bulls Crack:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> How about the Pic Tor E2's - anyone do them anymore?

I did a couple of them last year. Quite good I thought, a bit like Chee Tor but in a less attractive setting. Not popular, but the decent routes were clean enough to climb.
johncoxmysteriously - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

>The Peak doesn't have a whole lot of E2 crimpy walls.

No, that's true. I guess crimpy walls that go on for any time tend to be harder than E2.

I certainly wouldn't say Suspense was way better than BE, either. No accounting for tastes, I suppose. I didn't do it in very nice conditions; maybe that's it. The quarries are quite hard for non-locals to appreciate for that reason, I find - ideal conditions for them tend to be at different times of the year from ideal conditions for the natural grit and as a result one is never in the Peak at the right time.

jcm
999thAndy on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to 999thAndy)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Do you mean that the climbing on Billy Whiz is about f6b+
Yes
>
> People often seem to think that the difference between trad and sport is psychological, but of course it's really physical too. It takes so much longer to lead a trad route, so if it's sustained, the amount of stamina needed, much of which is hanging onto the holds with one hand while faffing with gear, is an enormous physical difference.

However stamina is very simple to train


Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)

> However stamina is very simple to train

True - I'm doing lots of laps down the wall at the moment to try to get from "can onsight 6b+" to "can do laps on 6b+". I reckon once I can do laps on 6b+ I'm fit enough to climb strenny, sustained Pembroke style E3s, so probably about the same as BW? I haven't done BW but reputation suggests it's fairly similar to say a Pembroke E3?
Coel Hellier - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I haven't done BW but reputation suggests it's fairly similar to say a Pembroke E3?

There are plenty of Peak E3s that are easier (and not just easy-but-run-out ones).
Coel Hellier - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy:

> However stamina is very simple to train

True, but if you have the stamina to do BW then you have the stamina to do F7a indoors, not just F6b+.
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> [...]
>
> There are plenty of Peak E3s that are easier (and not just easy-but-run-out ones).

I think all the Peak (grit) E3s I've done are of the easy-but-run-out variety, 'cause all the 'proper' E3s look so bloody hard. BW must be nails then!
Dave Garnett - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier)
> [...]
>
> I think all the Peak (grit) E3s I've done are of the easy-but-run-out variety, 'cause all the 'proper' E3s look so bloody hard. BW must be nails then!

As I recall, there's an easy but quite long unprotected section at the bottom with a slightly worrying bit to reach the first good gear, then a straightforward but increasingly steep crack and then a rather baffling bit where it's not very clear exactly where is goes. You tend to faff about a bit here, get pumped, put yet more gear in and get very pumped indeed, before figuring out where it must go, which would have been fine about 5 minutes ago but now doesn't seem plausible. If you are brave you go for it (approx 50% success rate from my observations), if not you scuttle back to the gear and start swearing.

Note that I didn't say where it does go so as not to blow your onsight.
Troy Tempest - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: Auricle at Bamford. Good gear and dinnerplate jugs most of the way. The crux is pretty fun and straightforward if yer over 5ft10 ish, rather umpleasant if your a midget though.
999thAndy on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
I've never flashed a 7a indoors, mainly I don't have enough power for overhanging 7s or the holds on vertical 7s are too small, and I honestly don't recall BW being that hard. It was steep, but time on the wall gave me enough strength/stamina to do it fine, and I would have been leading 6b+ indoors at the time.

Maybe a massive reach helps ...
climb the peak - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: Savage Messiah at Cratcliffe. It's nice and steep with an interesting crux and bomber gear
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]

>
> Note that I didn't say where it does go so as not to blow your onsight.

Don't worry, it won't be you that blows my onsight. I'm not too fussed about grit these days, but if I do get on it, I'll be asking everyone I know who's done precisely how to climb it, down to when to chalk up and what underpants to wear.
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to climb the peak:
> (In reply to jack01) Savage Messiah at Cratcliffe. It's nice and steep with an interesting crux and bomber gear

Good suggestion that. One of those routes where it's a relief to get out off the horrible graunchy HVS and get on with some proper climbing. Sadly, you have to get back on the filthy HVS, just where it gets even worse :(
Jonny2vests - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier)
>
> I would have assumed that the OP would be proficient in placing gear, to be contemplating E2. There's loads of good gear on BW, and most of it's pretty straightforward to place.
>
> I said *physically* the same as F6b+ indoors. If you can do an overhanging F6b+ on sight then you *physically* have the guns for Billy Whiz.

Physically, f6b+ is a cake walk compared to BW. Its barely a warm up.

I thought Twikker and Boulevard were both easier than Billy Whizz (from my diminutive perspective).
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Alright, alright!!
Jonny2vests - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> Alright, alright!!

Are you doing your scouser impression?
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about...
mkean - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Beware of friends bearing beta and a cheeky grin; I had a rather memorable 7+m faff off Strapiombante thanks to some well meaning beta :-)
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> Beware of friends bearing beta and a cheeky grin; I had a rather memorable 7+m faff off Strapiombante thanks to some well meaning beta :-)

It's only 7m high, what was their beta? Don't put any gear in and when you get to the top, jump off? You could have seen through that one...
Dave Garnett - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

It could have been something like 'that break you're going for is much better than it looks, pretty much one big jug really - you just need to pay out loads of slack and really lay one on...'

mkean - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
It is 8m high! The helpful advice was something like "the top hold gets better the further across you get" I'd slapped the edge, matched and traversed further left looking for this 'good edge' when it suddenly occurred to me that my mate was a lot shorter than me and I had missed the best bit. I went for the mantle, flailed a bit and fell off. I swung right across the face and past strapadictomy. I had time to say "Hi" to the people on Strapiombo before swinging back and hitting my belayer.
All good fun.
Tom Last - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to mkean:

Classic Mike :)
999thAndy on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
Horses v courses here - I wasn't strong enough to do Twikker.
Goucho on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Al Evans: I was sure Billy Whiz used to be HVS 5b Al? Or maybe I'm mistaken - it was a long long time ago :-)
Jon Stewart - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Goucho: Wouldn't it be harder to think or routes that weren't hvs when you did them?
Goucho on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Goucho) Wouldn't it be harder to think or routes that weren't hvs when you did them?

Ha Ha :-)
Kevster - on 14 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: sentinel at Burbage. Good line, fun climb, intimidating to look at, safe to climb.
ads.ukclimbing.com
johncoxmysteriously - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to mkean:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> Beware of friends bearing beta and a cheeky grin; I had a rather memorable 7+m faff off Strapiombante thanks to some well meaning beta :-)

I struggle to believe that Strapimobante is even 7m high!

jcm

Jonny2vests - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Kevster:
> (In reply to jack01) sentinel at Burbage. Good line, fun climb, intimidating to look at, safe to climb.

A surprising amount of people have either decked of that route or come very close. The wire before the steep bit is so so.
d conacher - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy: I can onsight 7a+ at my local wall,i can do also do 8 routes graded between 7a and7a+ one after another but i cant do billy whizz,says its the hardest e2 in the peak in my guidebook
Shani - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to d conacher:
> (In reply to 999thAndy) I can onsight 7a+ at my local wall,i can do also do 8 routes graded between 7a and7a+ one after another but i cant do billy whizz,says its the hardest e2 in the peak in my guidebook.

It is a bit pumpy but not has bad as Quietus (solid E2,5c)

deacondeacon - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests: I think the problem with breaking into a new grade is that ideally you want something that's not too dangerous and the moves aren't too hard for you. In reality your going to have to push the boat out a little on one of these aspects (otherwise youre not really climbing anything harder than normal).
Sentinel is quite good in that you can cop out to the right if it all gets a bit too much but I do agree that the gear isn't amazing especially if your just chucking anything in while jibbering.
Tbh I reckon the op could do with spending a weekend doing some solid E1's first.
Perhaps climbing the tippler, flying buttress direct and Kirkus corner in a day. All differing styles of E1, all middling-tricky for the grade and all next to each other. If you get all these onsight then get on some E2's.

( this isn't aimed at you Jonny, I just clicked on your post :)
johncoxmysteriously - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to d conacher:

>says its the hardest e2 in the peak in my guidebook

Does it now?! There's a proud title.

One can think of a few challengers. I don't keep up with modern upgrades, but the aforementioned Sentinel Crack, for example.

That reminds me, actually, assuming the OP has a large Friend and can cope with HVS squirming, Imposition at Ramshaw would be a reasonable choice. That's a perfectly ordinary HVS (admittedly Ramshaw HVS) that got upgraded for no better reason than Richie Patterson failing on it.

jcm
Jon Stewart - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to d conacher)
> [...]
>
> It is a bit pumpy but not has bad as Quietus (solid E2,5c)

I was onsighting 7a and doing laps on 6c when I failed outright on Quietus. The type of route where the only thing that will get you up is being good at climbing grit.
johncoxmysteriously - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to deacondeacon:

Seriously, I reckon Sentinel is a terrible choice unless the OP is a quite specific type of climber. It's both deceptively dangerous, and committing in a pumpy kind of way. Once you go, you'd better make it, and if you flounder there's no time for any rescue. To be sure it's easy and low in the grade, but I don't think it's a sensible recommendation for what is bound to be a stressful enough occasion, unless the OP happens to fancy it, of course - always the most important thing.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yeah, a winter training stamina on crimps in the gym isn't going to help much with Quietus!

jcm
Al Evans on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to 999thAndy)
>
> [...]
>
> No it isn't! Indoors 6b+ you only have to clip the bolts and go; on Billy Whizz you're hanging around placing gear. I'd rarely fail to onsight 6b+ indoors, but could probably not do BW without a couple of rests on gear.

I think you are underselling your ability Coel, I have rarely led 6b+ indoors yet I managed BW on sight, no rests, also I didn't use a single friend, I wouldn't bother carrying them. Small wires for the bottom wall and almost anything bigger than a rock 3 to make the crux safe, you can throw it in from below, I used a Moac, but a hex would do just as well.
Coel Hellier - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Al Evans:

Climbers of your generation were just good and bold!

Actually, I found BW a bit more of a psychological challenge than I was expecting (I was expecting it to be just physical stamina). You do the run-out slab, which was ok. But then you head up steep territory on rather dodgy gear, unless you trust rusty dodgy old pegs. The absence of solid gear at that point meant I didn't set off up the steep bit with the necessary "slam in solid gear and go" attitude (even though you do get solid gear once you get to the crack proper).
Dave Garnett - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier)
> [...]
>
> I think you are underselling your ability Coel,

I do too, judging from what he was doing on the wall the other night!
Jon Stewart - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to deacondeacon)
>
> Seriously, I reckon Sentinel is a terrible choice unless the OP is a quite specific type of climber.

I think it's E1 5b* and way easier than Tippler. While Tippler is well protected if you place all the gear properly, it has serious potential for placing dodgy blind gear while pumped, and then having it rip and the climber slammed sideways into the rocks over on the right. I think Tippler would be perfectly fair at E2, but it makes a good tough E1 at Stanage where most routes are soft. That buttress keeps an air of respectability to the Popular End.

johncoxmysteriously - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

>I think it's E1 5b*

Well, you're just wrong. FFS it's presently graded E2 and sees regular wobblers and a number of near-accidents; I've personally watched one and know of another.

What's Tippler got to do with it? I agree that's a pretty tough E1 if the thread's not in and wouldn't be absurd at E2.

jcm
caradoc - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: Original Route, Baldstones
Ketu - on 15 Mar 2013
Has no one suggested Orang-outang at stanage?, one of the first E2's i've tried and it's well protected
Jon Stewart - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> >I think it's E1 5b*
>
> FFS it's presently graded E2

What's that got to do with how difficult it actually is to climb? ;)

> sees regular wobblers and a number of near-accidents; I've personally watched one and know of another.

I didn't know that. I've only ever seen people cruise it and say - "that's pretty soft for E2".

> What's Tippler got to do with it? I agree that's a pretty tough E1 if the thread's not in and wouldn't be absurd at E2.

Just that it was in Deacon's post too, and I think it's harder and as dangerous (and loads better than) Sentinel - a bench mark to justify my personal, and completely unquestionably objectively correct regrading of the route in question.
johncoxmysteriously - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

>What's that got to do with how difficult it actually is to climb? ;)

Well, presumably it means that the people who go on it think they can climb E2. If a significant proportion of them wind up brushing the ground with their arses as they come down (which in my experience is the case) that suggests that the E2 grade is not an overstatement.

> I've only ever seen people cruise it and say - "that's pretty soft for E2".

I don't doubt it. It's one of those that is easy for E2 after you've done it.

jcm

johncoxmysteriously - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Ketu:
> Has no one suggested Orang-outang at stanage?, one of the first E2's i've tried

....."and it's well protected"

Fortunately

jcm
metal arms on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> >I think it's E1 5b*
>
> Well, you're just wrong. FFS it's presently graded E2 and sees regular wobblers and a number of near-accidents; I've personally watched one and know of another.
>
> What's Tippler got to do with it? I agree that's a pretty tough E1 if the thread's not in and wouldn't be absurd at E2.
>
> jcm

Says the man who suggested Sentinel Crack.
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Jon Stewart - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Either way it's a crap route because it climbs most naturally like this, which feels E1 and is how I did it:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=207194

But I think you're 'meant' to climb it like this

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=142480

which I guess could feel E2. Takes a lot away from a route for me when you're supposed to climb it with a hold in your right hand rather than your left to make it more difficult.
Shani - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Ketu:
> Has no one suggested Orang-outang at stanage?, one of the first E2's i've tried and it's well protected

E1 5c surely? You know you are getting old when your average climbing grade continues to rise long after you've given up pushing it.

Reminds me of that old chestnut; "How do you climb E5? Climb E4 and wait a few years."
Dave Garnett - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to caradoc:
> (In reply to jack01) Original Route, Baldstones

Maybe I'm just getting old or something but the last time I had a play on this I couldn't do the start (despite having done it several times previously). Perhaps it was just a bit damp but I don't remember the reach for the good hold where the wire goes being so desperate before and it felt as if something had come off it.

That said, if you can do the start you shouldn't have any problem with the top. Other than the realisation of what will happen if you do blow it, of course.
deacondeacon - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: I climbed it the 'proper' way and the moves still felt piss. Can't really remember the gear tbh so can't really comment on it.

I'm also not convinced that routes that are allegedly safe and hard really are necessarily safer. Take Regent Street, Just because it's a finger crack with plenty of gear, it's only any good if you can sort yourself out and place it properly. Chucking any old nut in, not having enough energy to extend it or back it up can still lead to trouble, infact we've just had a massive thread showing an experienced climber with gear falling out of it..
Whereas a route like Yosemite wall (the Stanage one) is pretty run out and could be nasty but people just don't fall off it.

In my experience I reckon I'm a very cautious climber but I still trend towards the bolder routes when breaking into a new grade.
Also it's much easier to wait for someone to drop you a toprope when you're on a bold slab rather than hanging on a couple of finger jams that are getting sweatier by the second ;)
Jon Stewart - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to Ketu)
> [...]
>
> E1 5c surely?

No - it's nails. Good examples of E1 5c are Dark Continent where the 5c move comes from a rest with bomber gear that's placed under no stress whatsoever, and all the rest of the climbing is pretty straightforward; and Wrong Hand Route which is a tough little micro-route with not enough moves to be sustained.

On Urang Utan, everything is done under duress from the start and there are no rests. It is 5c and safe, but that does not make it E1.

As for the grade inflation - that's how it works. Inconsistencies are resolved with a bias towards upgrading.
Jon Stewart - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to deacondeacon:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)

> I'm also not convinced that routes that are allegedly safe and hard really are necessarily safer...

> Also it's much easier to wait for someone to drop you a toprope when you're on a bold slab rather than hanging on a couple of finger jams that are getting sweatier by the second ;)

So true!
lowersharpnose - on 15 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yep, the second photo is what I did on The Sentinel. I certainly felt a sense of urgency up there and think E2 is fair.
Michael Hood - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: First photo is how a route called "Semtinel Indirect" used to finish - it came in from the big ledge on the right and was graded HVS 5a (in 1989) - not sure if it's still in the current guidebooks.
Chris the Tall - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:
Surprised no one has mentioned Wuthering at Stanage. Was my second e1, not sure if I agree with it being upgraded to e2 but that's what it gets now.
Jon Stewart - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Michael Hood:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) First photo is how a route called "Semtinel Indirect" used to finish - it came in from the big ledge on the right and was graded HVS 5a (in 1989) - not sure if it's still in the current guidebooks.

Only on gritstone would a classic E2 involve using the holds on a forgotten HVS, but with the other hand...
abcdefg - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Only on gritstone would a classic E2 involve using the holds on a forgotten HVS, but with the other hand...

You could make the same distinction in principle between, say, 'Archangel' and 'Don'. And of course, if the objective is just to stand on the top of thing, there is an even easier way: just walk up from the back of the crag ...

But the above post is correct: coming in from the right is Sentinel Indirect, HVS 5a. For the E2, you have to do it the hard way.

It's all just a game ...
Jon Stewart - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to abcdefg:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> [...]
>
> You could make the same distinction in principle between, say, 'Archangel' and 'Don'.

Yes, and Archangel is the more classic route, with Don a harder version. Also, these aretes consist of more than two moves at the end of a route.

The general point is that while eliminates can be fun, when you're climbing at the top of your grade, you need to be finding the line of least resistance up the rock you're committed to climbing. Otherwise, it's pants.
Si dH - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to abcdefg:
I find this baffling since going up the front at the top is also piss easy - it's all on massive jugs. The crux for me was definitely passing the thin crack with the nut in it in order to reach said jugs. About 5b with a strenuous to place nut, followed by 4c/5a romping to the top above said nut. Now or Never is way harder.
Si dH - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Si dH:
PS to me, going direct was the obvious way. Having done the tricky move up the front past the gear, I cant imagine then wandering off around to the right of the arete unless you had purposefully spotted that way from the ground and decided to go there - it would definitely feel off-rout otherwise.
Jon Stewart - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Si dH:

Agree Now or Never is way harder - that move up the arete a serious swine.

As for Sentinel, I think it depends how you climb and read routes. Some people always look for the next good handhold, I always look for the next foothold to get stood on.

If you look at the photos, you'll see people doing it both ways - going off to the right seems the easiest/natural line to a lot of us.
Si dH - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Si dH)
>

> As for Sentinel, I think it depends how you climb and read routes. Some people always look for the next good handhold, I always look for the next foothold to get stood on.

Interesting point - had never really considered that people did this differently before. I think I tend to look for the next rest (usually a good foothold(s) or gear in the medium term (next ~ 5 metres, depending on route), but in the short term (ie next couple of moves) its definitely primarily hands.
john arran - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I used to solo Now or Never from time to time and on about 50% of occasions I'd be completely baffled as to how to do it securely and end up escaping up the diff. The other times I'd get the sequence and it would feel straightforward and positive. Never could remember for next time though.
Offwidth - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

"Only on gritstone would a classic E2 involve using the holds on a forgotten HVS, but with the other hand..."

Worst example of that is Friggin Saw, coming into Himmelswillen from the ledge on the left, was Severe, now maybe E3 6a.
Offwidth - on 17 Mar 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett: I think OR at Baldstones might be getting harder due to boulderers messing on damp rock. OK if hardish 5c when I first did that move but it feels despertae now..solid 6a.
johncoxmysteriously - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Lots of grit routes are like that; you can scuttle off and pretend you've done it. Sentinel's one of those. I don't think anyone said it's a great classic, but it's a nice enough route.

jcm
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Skyfall - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01:

Ratbag - after about 6 months of not climbing. Might be a sandbag, might not, depends on you...
matt pigden - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to jack01: I'd say Brightside at Froggatt is a good introduction. Varied climbing with good small cams to protect. Nothing nasty on it. Plenty of places to rest and psyche up for next moves. Take several small cams on this route.
Jon Stewart - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Lots of grit routes are like that; you can scuttle off and pretend you've done it.

If you're wrong-handed on a route and it's easier, then the route is bollox - that goes for any rock type.
Coel Hellier - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

The least satisfying route in this regard is Jeepers Creepers, where you have to actively try not to use the obvious jugs on the right wall.
johncoxmysteriously - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:

Rubbish, the pair of you. Jeepers Creepers and Sentinel have given many climbers a great deal of pleasure. if you didn't enjoy them, that's your problem, not the route's.

jcm
Jonny2vests - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> The least satisfying route in this regard is Jeepers Creepers, where you have to actively try not to use the obvious jugs on the right wall.

Have to say that if all you have is a horizontal crack, then it's probably harder than E1. I really don't know what's in on that route.
Owen W-G - on 18 Mar 2013
Some of the recommendations on this thread are not 'nice first E2's at all!

Bog standard softies, where you shouldn't hurt yourself: Pot Black Tower Face Direct (sideways no 9 nut), Auricle, Erb (2.5 friend required to protect top slab), most of the Rivelin E2s should all be good for you

Bolder but nevertheless easy numbers, if you have the right head and risk management skills incl Browns Eliminate, Yosemite Wall, Monday Blue, Kayak

Tougher, but ultimately safe suggestions: Suspense, Orangutan

Avoid: Billy Whizz, Darius, anything at Curbur


Jonny2vests - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to Owen W-G:
> Avoid: ... anything at Curbur

Apart from Soyuz maybe...

mark20 - on 18 Mar 2013
Had a look through my logbook and these are the ones that stand out as being soft or a good intro to the grade.

Soyuz - probably (Curbar) E1 really
Kayak - as above
Monday Blue - Steady if ran out. Not great climbing and possibly escapable
Pot Black - the obvious choice, good climbing, good gear but a bit ran out
Yosemite Wall - steady, ran out but the gear is good
Dirty Stop Out, Bamford - a little gem, good gear (small cam), short but no pushover
Auricle - Reachy, soon over, good gear
Life During Wartime - bouldery rib with good gear at feet
Original Route, Rivelin - good gear, only a couple of moves
White Out - Bit eliminate but nice
Outsider - really good, possibly E1
Suspense - 5a slab, 5c crimping. Well protected with lots of small cams
Erb - lots of good climbing, well protected
Piccadilly Circus - surprised no one mentions this one; HVS, a 5c move with bomber wire, VS to the top.
Sentinel - good line, doesn't climb very well
Windhover, Stoney - HVS after the start
Bingo Wall, Stoney - good route, if a bit eliminate at the start, good gear
Savage Messiah, Cratcliffe - good gear at feet, easier than the HVS next door
Pearls, Chatsworth - an overlooked gem. Good gear


In reply to jack01:

Scoop Wall - can't believe no-one else has mentioned it (only skimmed the thread, so apologies if they have)!


Chris
LakesWinter on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to mark20: There's my ticklist for April and May, right there!
Jon Stewart - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to mark20:

Great list, obviously my experiences were a bit different on some of them.

> Monday Blue - Steady if ran out. Not great climbing and possibly escapable

I love this route, which makes me a massive hypocrite since it's an arete climbed on the hard side! Ha! I think the climbing is wonderful except for that foul top-out.

> Dirty Stop Out, Bamford - a little gem, good gear (small cam), short but no pushover

Yeah it is. E1 max if you put a little cam in above your head on the bulge.

> Original Route, Rivelin - good gear, only a couple of moves

I thought it was quite committing, moving up and away from the gear - maybe I missed some?

> Outsider - really good, possibly E1

Great route!
Bulls Crack - on 18 Mar 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> If you're wrong-handed on a route and it's easier, then the route is bollox - that goes for any rock type.

Spot on

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