/ Dangerous driver and confrontational cyclists

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the power - on 19 Mar 2013
bit of a rant more than anything but here goes,while out road cyling this morning me and my cyling buddy were overtaken very very close by a van,of course we responded with the usual shouts and hand gestures then about a half mile further on the road we came accross the same van at the side of the road with two men sat in it the driver was on the phone,i being the confrontational person that i am pulled up and tryed to talk to the driver who wound his window up gave me two fingers and mouthed "f" off, i then opened his door to have it out with him reached over and turned his engine off where upon he got out of the van and squared up to me shouting in my face about what he was going to do to me etc so i gave him a bit of a shove back and some verbal.now your probably thinking that i am a ladys front bottom but what happened next was unbeliveable he shouts im going the run you over jumps in the van and drives at us at speed mounts the grass verge runs over my mates bike that he only just jumped off in time then does the same with me narrowly missing me and my bike.then the icing on the cake we are at the side of the road trying to straiten the wheel enough so we could roll home when the police pull up and take our details because the bloke has hmade a complaint about us!!!!!!!
Neil Williams - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

Two wrongs. It's pointless having it out with idiots, and you may well find yourself up for assault as you were the first to use violence per your description.

Silly move.

Neil
fizzpup - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
Paul Oliver Lice of Letsby Avenue?
Timmd on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

I've learnt that being confrontational is often not helpfull.

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/samui-air-zound-3-rechargeable-air-horn-prod3/

This air horn is fantastic for letting you make yourself heard and noticed, and perheps more importantly letting off steam in the heat of the moment when you're cross at nearly being squashed, so you don't have situations getting out of hand like it did with you today.

It's 115 db, you get to feel like you've definately had your say. (:-))
Timmd on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/biologic-blast-airhorn-prod28073/

This is very similar and more expensive, it's possibly better quality which could be worth thinking about when choosing.

Tim
robal - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: I don't quite understand, did you think it was alright to open his door and turn his engine off?

Also if you've already upset the man enough to have him get out of the car and threaten you, you thought it was alright to shove him in the chest?

If the guy is clearly unreasonable to start with, you aren't going to get too much sense out of him by invading his space and then pushing him around. It like prodding a bear, what did you think was going to happen, to be honest you're lucky it was just your bike, if he'd been the sort of person to be carrying a knife it could have been very different.

You just need to appreciate that some people are inconsiderate and that they wont change. His perception of what is too close and your perception of what is too close is probably different and its certainly subjective.

You're not helping anyone acting like a child. I certainly do not support the mans reaction, I think its reprehensible and criminal. However you did seemingly goad him into behaving like this.

You do make your own luck. Just move on with your day next time.
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to robal:
> (In reply to the power) I don't quite understand, did you think it was alright to open his door and turn his engine off?
>
> Also if you've already upset the man enough to have him get out of the car and threaten you, you thought it was alright to shove him in the chest?
>
> If the guy is clearly unreasonable to start with, you aren't going to get too much sense out of him by invading his space and then pushing him around. It like prodding a bear, what did you think was going to happen, to be honest you're lucky it was just your bike, if he'd been the sort of person to be carrying a knife it could have been very different.
>
> You just need to appreciate that some people are inconsiderate and that they wont change. His perception of what is too close and your perception of what is too close is probably different and its certainly subjective.
>
> You're not helping anyone acting like a child. I certainly do not support the mans reaction, I think its reprehensible and criminal. However you did seemingly goad him into behaving like this.
>
> You do make your own luck. Just move on with your day next time.

i admit i goaded him i did descride myself as confrontational and a ladies front bottom.its the calling the police because he has been hard done too that amazed me
deepsoup - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> Two wrongs...
> Silly move.

True, and true. But you're not suggesting that confronting someone and shoving them is comparable to trying to run someone over in a van are you?
deepsoup - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> i admit i goaded him i did descride myself as confrontational and a ladies front bottom.its the calling the police because he has been hard done too that amazed me

It is pretty amazing. Were the police interested in what the van driver did at all? I hope so.
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to the power)
> [...]
>
> It is pretty amazing. Were the police interested in what the van driver did at all? I hope so.

they are now.talking about him paying for damage to bike.personaly if police hadnt come we wouldnt have called them just pit it down to experience although i would have paid for my mates bike repairs
sleavesley on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to deepsoup: I agree with the fact I'd be interested in the polices view to this. Not that anyone is in the right, but didn't a bus driver get done for using his vehicle as a weapon, admitingly the rider was still on the bike!
Where's off duty?
Trangia - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

You might have had the moral high ground at the outset, but you squandered it by your subsequent behaviour. Very silly.
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: i didnt so much push him as stop him from barging me with his chest
balmybaldwin - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

You are an idiot for being so confrontational.

In no way does this excuse him using his van as a weapon.

If he's reported it to the police already, makes sure you make it clear what he did.

Likely outcome is the police will either prosecute you both or let you both off with a warning.

If your mate did no provocation and just stood by and watched you being an idiot, there is a much bigger case for the driver being prosecuted.

I suggest you offer to pay for the damage to your mates wheel for being such an arse and getting you both into that situation.
GrahamD - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

> .now your probably thinking that i am a ladys front bottom ...

Yep
Neil Williams - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

No. But basic self preservation would suggest that when dealing with this sort of person this sort of action is not surprising (though also not OK).

Might well be that both parties end up being charged.

Neil
lost1977 - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

i'm guessing you have never had any conflict management training
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> (In reply to deepsoup)
>
> No. But basic self preservation would suggest that when dealing with this sort of person this sort of action is not surprising (though also not OK).
>
> Might well be that both parties end up being charged.
>
> Neil
charged with what? arguing

the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to lost1977:
> (In reply to the power)
>
> i'm guessing you have never had any conflict management training

how would that have made him see the error of his ways?
biped - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

This is ukclimbing and you should know by now that giving motorists the finger, opening their van doors, being confrontational etc are all acts worthy of being sentenced to share a cell with Charles Taylor and that all actions by the van driver are understandable.


Get some legal advice and do not believe anything the police may tell you. I suspect you will probably get your knuckles rapped for 'being confrontational', but then he should get much worse for driving the van at you. The fact he left the road to do it probably will count more than the danger he posed to you. Your mate is a witness.

Good luck, and next time, just steal his keys, ride off and throw them down a drain. I can assure you from experience that this is a most effective method of turning ride-rage into beatific calm.

Also, while we all get hard-ons talking about physical confrontation and how we'd sort them out etc, keep in mind that you never know who the driver might be, could be a serious violent criminal or someone who got kicked out of 2 Para for being too much of a psycho.

Good luck, and keep us posted on here with how it pans out, if you can be bothered with flak you'll get for being a cyclist.
999thAndy on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to GrahamD: plus 1.

You did yourself and other cyclists no favours at all there.
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to biped:
> (In reply to the power)
>
> This is ukclimbing and you should know by now that giving motorists the finger, opening their van doors, being confrontational etc are all acts worthy of being sentenced to share a cell with Charles Taylor and that all actions by the van driver are understandable.
>
>
> Get some legal advice and do not believe anything the police may tell you. I suspect you will probably get your knuckles rapped for 'being confrontational', but then he should get much worse for driving the van at you. The fact he left the road to do it probably will count more than the danger he posed to you. Your mate is a witness.
>
> Good luck, and next time, just steal his keys, ride off and throw them down a drain. I can assure you from experience that this is a most effective method of turning ride-rage into beatific calm.
>
> Also, while we all get hard-ons talking about physical confrontation and how we'd sort them out etc, keep in mind that you never know who the driver might be, could be a serious violent criminal or someone who got kicked out of 2 Para for being too much of a psycho.
>
> Good luck, and keep us posted on here with how it pans out, if you can be bothered with flak you'll get for being a cyclist.

cheers
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy:
> (In reply to GrahamD) plus 1.
>
> You did yourself and other cyclists no favours at all there.

i know that now but how in your view should i have handled it?
balmybaldwin - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
Threatening behaviour on your part, or possibly common assault depending on how the story is told.

On his part, anything from driving without due care to dangerous driving and assualt:

Similar(ish) cases:

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/Using-car-weapon-puts-Llanelli-motorist-jail/story-15634541-detail...

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/local-west-yorkshire-news/2012/05/05/man-jailed-for-using-car-as-weap...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/feb/17/driver-jailed-bus-weapon-cyclist

(Note that all of these cases involved the driver actually hitting a person/cyclist, not just causing damage, however if it went to court that wouldn't necessarily change the charge, more the sentence if guilty.

balmybaldwin - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to biped:
> (In reply to the power)
>

> Good luck, and next time, just steal his keys, ride off and throw them down a drain. I can assure you from experience that this is a most effective method of turning ride-rage into beatific calm.
>

Whilst I'm sure it is satisfying until the plod knock on your door and do you for theft, it's probably not the best idea.

> Also, while we all get hard-ons talking about physical confrontation and how we'd sort them out etc, keep in mind that you never know who the driver might be, could be a serious violent criminal or someone who got kicked out of 2 Para for being too much of a psycho.
>

This is a point to remember.

As someone else on here once said: What is it that makes you think that someone who clearly displays a lack of care for your life of a cyclist is going to be any less of a knob when you confront them about it?
Timmd on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to biped:
> (In reply to the power)

> Also, while we all get hard-ons talking about physical confrontation and how we'd sort them out etc, keep in mind that you never know who the driver might be, could be a serious violent criminal or someone who got kicked out of 2 Para for being too much of a psycho.

+1!
Timmd on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:
> (In reply to biped)
>
> As someone else on here once said: What is it that makes you think that someone who clearly displays a lack of care for your life of a cyclist is going to be any less of a knob when you confront them about it?

I'd hazard it's easier to think these things through in a logical fashion when at a keyboard than it is when you feel like you've had your life endangered?
AlisonSmiles - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

Out of curiosity, when you pulled up to talk to the driver, what outcome were you expecting? How did you see the conversation going? Did you expect him to apologise? Just trying to get into your mind and figure out what end result you were seeking. I tend to have a little run through of possible scenarios in my head before I leap into such a discussion, and I cannot for the life of me picture what positive one you were envisaging.
balmybaldwin - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to Timmd:
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
> [...]
>
> I'd hazard it's easier to think these things through in a logical fashion when at a keyboard than it is when you feel like you've had your life endangered?


Of course it is, I was once a hot headed cyclist myself. Now though I have the benefit of experience (having opened a van door to have a moan, and then had the van swerve into me as it pulled away and knock me on my arse.) I now content myself with a shout of annoyance or a gesture, and muttering to myself for a few miles.
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to AlisonSmiles:
> (In reply to the power)
>
> Out of curiosity, when you pulled up to talk to the driver, what outcome were you expecting? How did you see the conversation going? Did you expect him to apologise? Just trying to get into your mind and figure out what end result you were seeking. I tend to have a little run through of possible scenarios in my head before I leap into such a discussion, and I cannot for the life of me picture what positive one you were envisaging.
Truthfully I was hoping he would have kicked the sh*t outa me
JJL - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> we responded with the usual shouts and hand gestures
> confrontational person that i am
> i then opened his door to have it out with him
> (I) reached over and turned his engine off
> i gave him a bit of a shove
> and some verbal




> now your probably thinking that i am a ladys front bottom

It's a compelling argument that you've made, so yes.
Orgsm on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

If it really was dangerous driving or driving without due care and consideration. I'd have taken his registration, and then carried on. Then reported the matter later. If he's a repeat offender then the law would catch up with him.
cander - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

You have my sympathy - remember the driver has used his vehicle as an offensive weapon - even if he states it was in self defence (which no police officer will believe - and it's not true), it's a grossly inappropriate response to your rather pathetic assault (which it was). It's like pulling a gun on someone for flicking the V's.

sound like you have been a bit of a cock - but the appropriate punishment for that is people taking the micky or at worst telling you to foxtrot oscar - it's not someone attempting to run you over.

Hopefully the police won't take it any further on your side - but they might be inclined to if they want to prosecute the car driver - make sure you take the opportunity to give your version of events if questioned and don't be tempted to lie to make yourself look less of a knob - you'll be found out very quickly - the police do this for a living.

Live and learn
Neil Williams - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

Assault on the poster's part for pushing the person from the van, and some sort of motoring offence for the van driver.

Two wrongs...

Neil
Neil Williams - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:

(and possibly criminal damage of the bicycle as well)
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: after reading the majority of the responsors to this thread I'm so glad you people aren't backing me up, I wouldn't trust you to belay me with a gri gri.
Neil Williams - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

You asked for opinions, you got them ;)

Neil
marmot hunter - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
I imagine they wouldn't want to be tied to you either.
Everyone's a winner!

But you may be facing a prosecution as a result of your retalliation.
Tim Chappell - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to AlisonSmiles:
> (In reply to the power)
>
> Out of curiosity, when you pulled up to talk to the driver, what outcome were you expecting? How did you see the conversation going? Did you expect him to apologise? Just trying to get into your mind and figure out what end result you were seeking. I tend to have a little run through of possible scenarios in my head before I leap into such a discussion, and I cannot for the life of me picture what positive one you were envisaging.



^^^ This is good advice. Before you start, try and work out where you want to end up.
deepsoup - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams:
> Assault on the poster's part for pushing the person from the van, and some sort of motoring offence for the van driver.

"Assault" - arguably true, but perhaps overstating it a bit.

-vs-

"Some sort of motoring offence" - quite an understatement for making a spirited attempt to deliberately run someone over in a van.
deepsoup - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
It's a UKC bike thread, what did you expect? ;o)
I'm glad you're ok.
deepsoup - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
Oh, and regarding this bit..
> Truthfully I was hoping he would have kicked the sh*t outa me

Be careful what you wish for.

I work with a chap who was deliberately knocked off his motorbike and hit with a car during a road-rage type altercation some years ago. The driver ended up in prison for GBH (it wasn't his first offence), my mate got a broken leg and looking back on it now certainly doesn't feel like he 'won' in any way.

We've all seen too many films where people get the sh*t kicked out of them and in the next scene they're completely fine I reckon.
Scotsken on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
I think the police probably have more important things to worry about than handbags at ten paces between you and the driver.

He probably called the po po as he was worried you would do the same and pulled the classic "I called you first so you have to believe me" maneuver...

BTW its the crown prosecution service that prosecutes people not the police. They investigate. If there are no independent witnesses or any other evidence this is going nowhere. If you feel different then there is nothing stopping you taking out a private prosecution. Your brief will be able to request the other parties details from the police.

That's coming from a fellow cyclist (and a copper).
Timmd on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:
> (In reply to Timmd)
> [...]
>
>
> Of course it is, I was once a hot headed cyclist myself. Now though I have the benefit of experience (having opened a van door to have a moan, and then had the van swerve into me as it pulled away and knock me on my arse.) I now content myself with a shout of annoyance or a gesture, and muttering to myself for a few miles.

I once had somebody react rather badly after a hand gesture, which is when I got the airhorn i've linked to above. It's a brilliant way of 'verbalising' feeling very annoyed. That's what used to get to me most when commuting to my computer classes I think, not being able to make myself heard/noticed.
Scotsken on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
Assault on the poster's part for pushing the person from the van, and some sort of motoring offence for the van driver.

"Assault" - arguably true, but perhaps overstating it a bit.

-vs-

"Some sort of motoring offence" - quite an understatement for making a spirited attempt to deliberately run someone over in a van.

Your dont even have to touch someone to assault them. Look up the definition.

We only have one side of the story remember.

Maybe 'Dave" was sat in his van minding his own business when a crazed cyclist yanked open his door and turned his engine off. When 'Dave' got out to see how he could help the lycra clad nutter shoved him in the chest to try and provoke a fight. "Dave' was then genuinely afraid that he was going to be attacked so he jumped back into the van and tried to drive away. The cyclist and his mate then tried to get the doors open and he was so panicked that he drove off clipping one of the bikes as he did so...

His word against yours...(hypothetically you understand, but I'm sure you get the picture)
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: wwjd?
climber david - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

Firstly I'm glad you're ok and only bikes were damaged (although not ideal, better than people)

However, You did yourself, the situation and every other cyclist no good at all. The shouting, understandable and perfectly reasonable. Stopping to try and talk about the situation and catch a name to report to the police, understandable and not unreasonable. reaching over, taking his keys and goading him into confrontation - stupid, reckless and completely pointless. The best it woud do is give you some bruises and a criminal record, worst you get badly beaten up and seriously injured.

People often complain about cyclists but its no wonder when theuy act like this

Having said that, I wasn't there and don't know what the exact situation was. I also won't judge you for what you did in the heat of the moment. At least you realise it was a silly thing to do

David
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> (In reply to the power) wwjd?

i think he always wore a helmet cam, so he'd have had footage of the incident to back up his story...
trouserburp - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

I would say with regards to you it was attempted GBH in return for maybe common assault, might be best to forget about it so you don't get a caution. However from your friend's perspective the van driver attempted GBH for no reason. He might as well have tried to run over your mother due to her being associated with you. If you want vengeance get your friend to press charges

-completely uninformed opinion by the way
upontop - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: Something similar happened to me today, pedalling through a traffic calming chicane 3 feet from kerb due to icy patchy. Got to end of chicane van got right up my ar*e, overtook and cut me up. I caught him up at next junction, with him trickling forward in traffic, went to overtake on drivers side, as I got half way down length of van he decides to veer right forcing into the path of oncoming traffic. So backed off and went up the passenger side, he then proceeds to veer left forcing me in front of cars approaching the junction to turn left. Shouted at him when level with passenger window calling him a co*k.

He left me behind after junction, but I caught up with him again with him in the next village, got level with drivers window, he then said it was my fault saying I should have let him pass in the chicane and I had deliberately blocked him, when I said I had not cycled in kerb because of ice, and that I was not even aware of him approaching me from behind he said the classic prat response, "whatever mate". He then starts to edge towards the middle of the road, trying to force me into the path of more oncoming traffic.

Got his registration number, and now regret not making a phone call to Police, not sure they could/would do anything, but it may have resulted in me feeling less angry and frustrated if I had. There is always tomorrow I guess !!
the power - on 19 Mar 2013
In reply to upontop: now imagine how you would feel if he now reported you to the police.just gota face it some people are tw#ts
deepsoup - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to Scotsken:
> We only have one side of the story remember.

That's something that baffles me about these kinds of threads, and I guess it's part of why they end up so polarised. Why do a significant proportion of those who reply to them automatically assume the OP is lying about what happened, and respond on the basis that it was completely different?
Scotsken on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
I am not accusing him of lying. Far from it, I'm sure he feels like his version of events are exactly what happened but in my experienece the other party involved would probably give a different version and any witnesses would probably give a third version...

There is a solicitor who successfully prosecutes his own cases and blogs about it, I think he's called the cycling silk or something but he always has video evidence and he is a QC.

I do feel that this is a situation that the OP got himself into. I hope you have learned something?
999thAndy on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> (In reply to 999thAndy)
> [...]
>
> i know that now but how in your view should i have handled it?

Was there a 'well driven?' type number on the van?

Stand in front of his van, take a photo of him and the reg of his van, then cycle off without saying a word?

Bang on the side of his van as he was passing - not enough to damage, but enough to make a big noise?

If this sort of thing happens a lot on your regular route maybe a helmet cam followed by a trip to the old bill?
grumpyoldjanner - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to upontop:
>
> Got his registration number, and now regret not making a phone call to Police, not sure they could/would do anything, but it may have resulted in me feeling less angry and frustrated if I had. There is always tomorrow I guess !!

I would report it to the Police if i was you. Although they will most likely take no action this time they will log the incident against the VRM and if more complaints are made against that vehicle they may speak to the driver. You may not be the first cyclist he has bullied and probably won't be the last but unless people phone the police to log the incident then nothing will get done about it.
xplorer on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

Your a mentalist
MG - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to Scotsken)
> [...]
>
> That's something that baffles me about these kinds of threads, and I guess it's part of why they end up so polarised. Why do a significant proportion of those who reply to them automatically assume the OP is lying about what happened, and respond on the basis that it was completely different?

Not necessarily lying but very likely presenting (perhaps unwittingly) a partial and one-sided view of events. Someone above gave a suggestion about how the same story could be told from the van driver's perspective. However, even with the OP's version, he comes over as highly provocative.

Sir Chasm - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> Your a mentalist

No, you're a mentalist.
Cú Chullain - on 20 Mar 2013
I have been clipped a few times by muppet drivers while cycling around London, usual stuff, car doors opening up, cars pulling out across your path without warning, lots of white van man awful driving and abuse. Most people are too proud to admit that they are wrong and will certainly not apologise to some irate cyclist banging on the window of their car.

The best thing I did was buy a small helmet mounted camera, people change their attitude massively when they realise they are being recorded. If I catch up with a driver at the next set of lights or whatever I now just calmly point out the fact that their dangerous driving, their registration number and their face have been recorded and I shall be notifying the police, instead of a F*ck off you c*nt I now get a no need for that mate, look, Im sorry I cut you up etc etc.
robal - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: Yeah I agree I think the calling of the police was unfair after the way he behaved.....
ads.ukclimbing.com
jamesc88 on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: There is no excuse for banging on a car, EVER. If you haven't been hit don't complain. If you get that nervous then get off the road. Stop being a pussy.
victim of mathematics - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to jamesc88:
> (In reply to the power) There is no excuse for banging on a car, EVER. If you haven't been hit don't complain. If you get that nervous then get off the road. Stop being a pussy.

And there was me thinking the OP was the biggest twunt on the thread...
999thAndy on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to jamesc88:
> (In reply to the power) There is no excuse for banging on a car, EVER. If you haven't been hit don't complain. If you get that nervous then get off the road. Stop being a pussy.

I do hope you don't drive cars the way you drive your keyboard.
ti_pin_man - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: I sometimes have been the same and been confrontational with drivers. I understand the feeling of rage when somebody nearly hurts you or might kill you. Its very much fight or flight mode. In a parallel universe the car drivers are just in another world completely and even though their action feels agressive to you they are disconnected from them. So the two sides rarely get how the other feels.

then YOU took up the fight mode and then sparked his fight mode.

I cycle every day and IMO you stepped over the line a bit, understandable but you went a bit far.

Tell the police and then take a deep breath and get on with life.

and to the above poster, there is one instance when I will hit out a car, if it goes past close enough I can touch it, then I will as the driver is clearly ignorant to the fact they are TOO close to the cyclist.
mbambi - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to C Chullain:
Excellent. Best tip yet.
Siward on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> (In reply to the power) after reading the majority of the responsors to this thread I'm so glad you people aren't backing me up, I wouldn't trust you to belay me with a gri gri.

Surely the people who aren't backing you up are precisely the sort of sensible, balanced people you would love to have belaying you, eh? :)
EeeByGum - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: Not sure who is the biggest a-hole. The van driver or you.
the power - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to Siward: sensible balanced people sat at home behind a keyboard that never stick up for themselves for fear of upsetting someone.
jamesc88 on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy: I don't own a car and cycle 200 miles a week, have lived and cycled in London, drive possibly 5000 miles a year for work.

Getting upset and confrontational over NOTHING HAPPENING, the van didn't hit either of them, is paramount to being a f*cking moron. You don't punch every mug who stumbles into you in a bar do you?

If you're banging on a car then you are asking for trouble, when a 6ft 5 body builder gets out then who's in the wrong? They didn't hit you, you hit them. The person passing you, 99 times out of 100, figured out they'd passed far enough away not to hit you, it's YOUR perception of risk that frightens you. If this happens constantly then maybe the road isn't the best place for you.

Where do you drawn the line then Andy? It's okay to punch a car because it didn't hit you but you got scared, is it okay to hit the driver? Is it okay to resort to violence whenever anyone upsets you? I'm genuinely curious.
the power - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to EeeByGum: another non descript hiding behind a profile.......oh hang on you haven't got one
tony on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> (In reply to Siward) sensible balanced people sat at home behind a keyboard that never stick up for themselves for fear of upsetting someone.

Well you're the one who called himself a c*nt. (Ladies front bottom ... !)
999thAndy on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to jamesc88:

Blimey reading that makes me *really* hope you drive a car better than a keyboard.

jamesc88 on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy: If you would care to elaborate I'm more than willing to respond to criticism.
EeeByGum - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> (In reply to EeeByGum) another non descript hiding behind a profile.......oh hang on you haven't got one

That is the pot calling the kettle black! :-)

But seriously - what did you expect? If a dog bites you and then you beat it with a stick in retaliation, would you really be surprised if it then jumped up and bit your face off?

The sad thing for the rest of us cyclists is that your failed attempt at diplomacy now means there is an a-hole in a white van with a vendetta against ALL cyclists.
999thAndy on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to jamesc88:
You're response to the OP was 'stop being a pussy he didn't hit you'. Not a good mindset for a driver, especially one who cycles.

Being cut up is a lot more dangerous for the cyclist than the driver. You don't have to be hit to be knocked off - forced into a pothole, against a kerb etc etc.

FrankBooth - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
I think the idea that if you can touch a car, it's clearly too close is right, but dealing with the situation by thumping it, will only provoke tension.

Maybe, a few cycling organisations should create something as simple as a sticker campaign - rather than banging on the car, cyclists would we encouraged to (gently) slap a sticker ('too close! please keep your distance in future' type-of-thing) on to the roof/window. Nothing too severe, and easy to peal off. Drivers who are regularly 'stickered' might start to get the message....
GrahamD - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to FrankBooth:

I wonder what happened to those flag things you could attach to your bike which stuck out into the road to encourage drivers to give a wide berth ? did they prove not to work or are simply too uncool for serious cyclists to contemplate ?
jamesc88 on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to 999thAndy: Yeah, it was a bit trolly.

'If you haven't been hit don't complain.'

The OP didn't say he had to swerve, it just caused distress. Whilst this isn't ideal it is part and parcel of cycling on the road. The more often you're out there the more likely it is to happen to you. This is true of car on car, bike on car, car on ped etc etc. Thinking that the world is all rosey and every driver will give you miles of space is naive and suggests a lack of street smarts.

Ideally you would always give yourself a meter between you and the side of the road, allowing for manoeuvrability in such a situation. I appreciate this isn't always possible but is good practice.

None of what happened gives anyone the right to respond in the way of the OP. It genuinely distresses me that people still respond like this.

'If you get that nervous then get off the road. Stop being a pussy.'

I strongly believe in this. If you get yourself into this sort of situation often, then it's time for a rethink. Responding the way the OP did is disgraceful.

So apologies for the trolly original post. Cycling isn't inherently dangerous and shouldn't be viewed as such. The actions of the few don't reflect the many miles covered without incident. At the same time it isn't anyone's duty other than yourselves to be aware of your surroundings and make things as safe as possible for yourself. If you do this the odds of you getting knocked off are minimal, unfortunately people passing to close for your comfort may still happen but you should, ideally, be prepared for this. If you are responding to the circumstance you put yourself in with violence then you need some help (in the literal, not derogatory sense).
PeterM - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> (In reply to the power) wwjd?

Jens would never have been caught by a van.....obviously...
999thAndy on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to jamesc88:
No apology really necessary, no cars were damaged in the making of this thread ;-)
Dave Reeve - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: I've read a lot of these types of thread over the years on UKC and there seems to be an underlying assumption by cyclists that drivers are out to get them and that the best way to respond is to shout, thump the car etc etc.

Whatever way you travel on the road you will always encounter people doing stupid things (myself included at times) but they're not necessarily malicious. The way you react to them will have a big impact - literally - on your lifespan. As a one time high mileage company car driver, I did a defensive driving course where the emphasis was on avoiding accidents rather than sticking to your guns because you were "in the right" and having an accident.

The situation where a car coming the other way is overtaking another one and is not going to make it unless you hit the brakes. Is it better to prove they were stupid and have a head on crash or hit the brakes and swerve to the verge to avoid it ? Or same situation but someone is overtaking you, do you back off so they can get back in ? I back off...

As a cyclist if I'm on a narrow road and there is an HGV or similar grinding along behind me I'll often pull over somewhere safe and let it past. I don't have to but it doesn't cost me anything to do that and there's less chance of him squeezing me off the road.

We all make mistakes when driving and no one is going to admit easily that they are a bad driver, for example - have you ever had anyone thank you at the climbing wall for telling them that their belaying was bad ? Calm reasoned reaction - if possible - is more effective.

Last year I pulled out onto a road just as a motorbike was exiting a roundabout about 150 metres down the road. He obviously decided to give it the big one as next second he was right behind me then he overtook me and gave me the finger. I followed him to the local motorcycle shop, went in behind him and said that a) I was a motorbike rider too, b) I didn't like being given the finger and c) that as he had a Honda Fireblade with phenomenal acceleration he had some responsibility too and needed to accomodate other road users. To his credit he thought about and apologised.

Backing off when we're "right" might cost us a bit of pride now and again but rather that than broken limbs or death...
James Dunn - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: faced my fair share of poor driving, have given up trying to engage with anyone anymore, its really not worth it. I read about a cyclist in the states getting put into hospital for a week or something after he banged the side of someones car for passing too close, they drove him off the road and then kick the crap out of him.

I saw one of these yesterday which I thought was an absolutely brilliant idea and will be investing!

http://www.highvisibility.uk.com/cycling/polite-cycling-waistcoat
jkarran - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

> after reading the majority of the responsors to this thread I'm so glad you people aren't backing me up, I wouldn't trust you to belay me with a gri gri.

Who in their right mind would 'back you up' given the behavior you've described? Aggressive behavior elicits an aggressive response. Shocker! What on earth did you expect?

Have you learned anything from the episode?
jk
Siward on 20 Mar 2013
balmybaldwin - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to James Dunn:
> (In reply to the power) faced my fair share of poor driving, have given up trying to engage with anyone anymore, its really not worth it. I read about a cyclist in the states getting put into hospital for a week or something after he banged the side of someones car for passing too close, they drove him off the road and then kick the crap out of him.
>
> I saw one of these yesterday which I thought was an absolutely brilliant idea and will be investing!
>
> http://www.highvisibility.uk.com/cycling/polite-cycling-waistcoat

I'm sure it works, but isn't that basically imitating a police officer?

If you marked up a car to appear like a police car that's not allowed (especially 'battenburg' stripes)
Neil Williams - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to Siward:

Incredibly dangerous. If it isn't illegal, it should be.

Neil
Siward on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to Neil Williams: Hard to tell but isn't it essentially projecting two lines down onto the road, as opposed to being aimed at driver height (which would, indeed, be dangerous)?
Neil Williams - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to Siward:

Then if it gets knocked loose for any reason, the lasers end up in the driver's face?

I don't like the idea of exposed lasers on road vehicles at all.

Neil
PeterM - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:
> (In reply to James Dunn)
> [...]
>

> If you marked up a car to appear like a police car that's not allowed (especially 'battenburg' stripes)

Not true - many breakdown recovery and maintenance vehicles have the 'battenburg' stripes, but if you have anything that resembles blue lights you may get pulled. The 'Polite' vest is quite cheeky but I'd expect totally legal.
jazzyjackson on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

horrible story but you instigated a high level of confrontation and weren't able to control the situation. If your gonna open a guys door and touch his ignition keys you better be ready for the gates of hell to be thrown open.
You could have been killed by a genuine loose screw.
ads.ukclimbing.com
The Hat - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
The driver is clearly a dick ! That said and I hope you don't mind me saying this but so is the original poster . I am not condoning the drivers actions, but if you'd have reached into my car and turn the engine off you would have got a right punch in the chops ! The drivers behaviour is clearly wrong but you need to have a word with yourself !
xplorer on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Noway mate, your the bloody mentalist.

Get on ya bike
James Dunn - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin: Not sure, there is an interesting article here which says basically they won't have a precedent until someone goes to court and sets one;
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/tradenews/7544/315838.html

And if drivers are allowed to imitate murderers, shouldn't cyclist be allowed to imitate the police?! ;)
colina - on 20 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
the sad fact power is in the eyes of the law you were probably the guilty party .you opened his door and you invaded his space.have been in this situation myself and the impulse is to probably drag him out show him some manners and lob his keys away etc..
do sympathise with you though mate,but at least youre not sitting in the cells waiting to be charged with gbh ,loads of arseholes around though just need to accept that will always be the case.

ps would probably have done the same as you !
jakethegoldfish - on 26 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: I had an intresting altercation with a white van driver, he decided to cut me up, swear at me then try squash me up against a parked car, my response, cuaght the f*cker up at the lights, tapped on his window and emptyed my rather sticky engergy drink through his window into his lap and then bggered off at lightning speed the barred bus lane :)
New POD - on 26 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

A mate of mine was cut up by a car, whilst he was on a motorbike, and he and another motorcyclist made statements to the police, who took it to court, where he pleaded guilty to driving without due care.

Why argue, if you have a witness?
Nigel R on 26 Mar 2013
In reply to the power: I think in the circumstances the best outcome would be words of advice for both parties and your wheel the price of not keeping a cooler head. If the police decide to go further he may be looking at damage for the bike (your mate was not on it at the time and v difficult to prove intention wrt assault) but you could be looking at assault or possibly even Affray (Public Order Act).

Previous poster is right though: v few independant witnesses so if you are interviewed I'd say nothing and the likelihood is CPS won't touch it. Certainly DON'T start "putting your side of the story". Your solicitor would call that a Significant Statement and be politely advising you to STFU.

Riding a bike is a pain sometimes. Please try and be less confrontational in future for all our sakes.
New POD - on 27 Mar 2013
In reply to New POD:
> (In reply to the power)
>
> A mate of mine was cut up by a car, whilst he was on a motorbike, and he and another motorcyclist made statements to the police, who took it to court, where he pleaded guilty to driving without due care.
>
> Why argue, if you have a witness?

Mind you I was giving a mate a lift on a big motorcycle in the rush hour, and squeezing through the traffic at a set of lights to get to the front, when a car pulled deliberately towards us. My mate put a large dent in his door, with his steel toed boots, who then tried to follow us (to try to kill us I assume) and seeing the size of the bloke, I made off down a side road and down an alley, and across a park. (It was in the 1980's)
nrhardy - on 27 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:
> i then opened his door to have it off with him

No wonder he got upset.
andymac - on 27 Mar 2013
In reply to the power:

Cycling on the road,I have decided, is just not worth it.

Not for me.

been out on quiet roads a few times now ,and I am afraid I have not a lot of faith in oncoming ,and worse (approaching from behind)motorists.

And I am one of these motorists. we all are.

Very vulnerable creatures when we are on the saddle

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