/ Rate my top rope.

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deepsoup - on 08 Apr 2013
Well, not my top rope exactly.

I happened across a bit of crag-swag the other day.
(Soon to be re-united with it's rightful owner via the power of UCK: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=545280 )

I guess they pulled the ropes and then forgot to re-visit the top of the crag to collect the TR anchors, d'oh! The anchors looked a bit alarming to me so I thought, just for a bit of fun (and because you do get really good, constructive advice offered here, between the outbreaks of bickering), I'd take a couple of pictures to share with the UKC massiv.

Here goes:
http://www.deepsoup.f2s.com/UKC/sunsetTR1.JPG
http://www.deepsoup.f2s.com/UKC/sunsetTR2.JPG

Out of sight in the first pic, equalised (ish) with the sling in the foreground, there's also a pretty decent thread loosely larks-footed with a 10mm dyneema sling. (There'd probably have been about 2" of slack to pull out of it before it came tight.)

So, what's the verdict? Mildly untidy, or death on a stick. ;o)

And for trolling purposes: if the belay is dodgy enough, does that make Sunset Slab HVS to top rope and/or lower off? ;o)
A Crook on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

difficult to tell. in the first example foreshortening and the like.

In the first example it is unlikely that the sling will come off if continually loaded. but a back up wouldn't go a miss.

In the second example, probably bomber but as you won't see it whilst top roping, coupled with a friends habit of walking I wouldn't that.
alooker - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup: not exactly textbook is it! There's plenty of good places to get solid pro in at the top of sunset slab, death on a stick vote from me...!
Kemics - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

Eeek, top roping of a single cam is a little terrifying. In that one situation, probably not going to kill you, but that approach probably will in the long run.
Ander on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

Is the cam under a boulder? If so, I wouldn't rate it.
Muel - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

Whoever set that garbage up is going to have to deal with some serious injuries before long. They clearly don't understand the limitations of climbing gear and basic rigging techniques.

They need to buy Trad Climbing+ and swot up!
martinph78 on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup: Wouldn't normally comment on this sort of thing as you can't see the bigger picture.

In teh second photo, if that cam was the only anchor, on it's own, then someone needs to learn about back-up's and redundancy. There are a lot of single points of failure in the dyneema sling, the cam sling and the cam. Also having no rope protector over the edge with a dynema sling like that is asking for trouble. I had one slip/roll across just a few feet uner load and the sling was shredded.

In the first photo, I suspect that the ancor is bomber, looks like plenty of grooves in the rock used by others. I also suspect that the second threaded sling was in place to prevent the main hooped sling moving across to slip off the rock. Good practice in teh event of a fall that may cause the rope to move in such a way. As for it not been equalized, it may have been, maybe the last fall ended up with a swing towards it. Also, as I say, if it was more to keep the load on the main anchor (the long sling) then I'd be happy with it.

Easy to say sat here though, can't see the rest of the set-up as you haven't taken the best photos/enough photos to comment further.

martinph78 on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

* when I say "suspect" I mean "hope"!

Neil Williams - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

I wouldn't be happy with it, but I know people who would.

Neil
deepsoup - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to Ander:
> Is the cam under a boulder?

Another angle: http://www.deepsoup.f2s.com/UKC/sunsetTR3.JPG

The cam is under the square-ish boulder behind the big-un that the slings are draped over in the foreground. You can just make out the sling from the cam hanging over the edge at the top of Sunset Crack in the backgrgound on the right hand side.
ice.solo - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

like most here, have seen worse.

#1 i find hard to believe it was the best option going, but then with angle of the photo and benefit of the doubt im assuming it was (but then again...). as you say, theres a thread. beneath the resting edge of the same boulder im thinking?

#2 its a bit sketch if thats all there was - especially with an absolutly bomber looking large hex placement in the grassy crack half way along the slings length - but then again, camera angles/obscured by the sling etc could prove me wrong.
is it a snap gate?

otherwise, its nice looking weather, with the late sun on the rock and all. can see why they named it so.

i have the feeling this thread will reap good numbers (even with you returning the swag). fun in a f*cked up kind of way.
derryclimbs - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

cant really comment on the first pic as I cant see the whole setup, but I really hope #2 is some sort of joke for us to spot 'whats wrong with the picture?' lets see... cam isn't even placed that well (left lobes look undercammed to me), slings twisted, only a wiregate used on cam, stitching on second sling resting on the edge of the crag, locking krab would be better with the back bar against the rock, and thats not to mention the slightly dirty crack, lack of back up, proneness to walking and all round crapness.
Scary stuff!
ice.solo - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

just saw the second post. i was wrong re the thread, but by the looks of it ok.
Jamie B - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

It's a heap of shit. What happens when you go top-roping without long slings or a length of static. All that's needed is a long loop all the way under the big block and extended to the edge. Larks-footing skinny dyneema never a good idea.
chrisprescott - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup: Definitely pulled a grimace when I saw the first picture, don't really want to offer advice though as it's always easy to misinterpret from photos. Definitely looks like they could do with investing in some longer slings to avoid all that unnecessary redundancy though for a start!
mkean - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to Ander:
Is the cam under a boulder? If so, I wouldn't rate it.

While far from an ideal placement I think that boulder is heavy enough to take it. For each kg you hang on a cam you'll be applying roughly 14 times that much outward force, so a 70kg climber could potentially put about 1 ton on it as a static load. At a wild stab in the dark I'd say that boulder would be about 3g/ml and it is probably about 3m^3, so 9-10tons? Even assuming you are rolling it not lifting it I'd say it will probably hold although the whole thing looks like a bit of a dogs breakfast.

martinph78 on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup: Ok, having seen the extra photo I gave it too much credit! You should have posted that one earlier (see what I mean about not seeing the whole story...)

Hope whoever rigged it is reading this thread - it'll be tough reading but take note and learn from it, it's for your own good, there's a LOT to learn. It doesn't take long (actually less time) to set up a well equalised, independant anchor.

A length of static rigging rope is ideal for these situations as well, as suggested above.



Fraser on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

I'd rather not be dangling off that, given a choice.
duchessofmalfi - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to mkean:

"applying roughly 14 times that much outward force" - err I think you'll find that is 2 times the force (assuming parallel cracks and 13.5 degree cams). Happy to prove it if you have doubt!

However you forgot to add it is a top rope so the load on the anchor is double the weight of the climber so for the 70Kg climber the vertical load (up) on the boulder is ~2.7kN (280Kg).

While the boulder probably weighs a few tonnes - question is how much force to tip it and realese the cam? from my experience of the boulders above sunset slab it won't move. However the cam placement is insufficiently safe for a sole TR anchor, no question.
EeeByGum - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

> However you forgot to add it is a top rope so the load on the anchor is double the weight of the climber so for the 70Kg climber the vertical load (up) on the boulder is ~2.7kN (280Kg).

I think you are missing the point massively. In grit-land, there are boulders and there are boulders. I can tell you for free just by looking at this particular picture that the boulder in question is firmly routed to the ground and will not move for toffee by only human intervention. I certainly wouldn't have a problem with this set up although would not recommend it and would certainly only use it if I absolutely had to.
deepsoup - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to ice.solo:
> otherwise, its nice looking weather, with the late sun on the rock and all. can see why they named it so.

It was really lovely. Not a cloud in the sky all day. Still crisp and cool, but plenty of dry rock despite all the melting snow. The prevailing winds around here blow from the West, but they're pretty consistently coming from the East at the moment making the foot of Froggatt even more of a sun trap than usual.

An on sight lead (well, solo, really) of Sunset Slab in the evening sun is one of the best and most memorable experiences available to a mid-grade climber on gritstone I reckon.

Given Froggatt's reputation as a good bet on a chilly day, and Stanage still being half-buried in snow I was really surprised not to see more people climbing there.

> i have the feeling this thread will reap good numbers (even with you returning the swag). fun in a f*cked up kind of way.

Ha ha. Well I did take my snapshots with a view to trolling a bit, but I'm not very good at it. (And it did seem only fair to return the gear.)

It's not a set-up though, the gear is pictured exactly as I found it. :o)

lowersharpnose - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

I would have a loop of rope around the boulder. The crag is short and there would be plenty of rope left.


duchessofmalfi - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:

I think we're in agreement - this boulder is fine (I don't think the anchor is fit for purpose though).

However mkean's sum are incorrect (although the conclusion is correct) since the question in the thread is "is this anchor any good?" means that incorrect calculations are fair game for comment.
needvert on 08 Apr 2013
After a nice top rope I got to the top and found a single cam, I'd be pissed. I'd not climb with that person again.

Perhaps there was more to the anchor, but they then setup a nearby anchor pulling what they needed from the existing. Then packed up the latest and went home.
mkean - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to duchessofmalfi:
Oi, my maths is spot on; my input data was shoddy :-)
duchessofmalfi - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to mkean:

Fair enough!
Offwidth - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:

"there are boulders and there are boulders" thats a pretty lazy view... things change/erode and not making assumptions about boulders not rocking is sensible. I'd never recommend using a single cam under such a boulder as there are better alternatives right next door (and I regularly body belay!).

My first uni club experience was folk climbing sunset slab in dirty walking boots with the belayer at the topmattached to her gear loops...I guess I'm sensitive to proper safety and ethics (as opposed to the bogus over-redundant systems often supported here).

EeeByGum - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

> "there are boulders and there are boulders" thats a pretty lazy view... things change/erode and not making assumptions about boulders not rocking is sensible.

I couldn't agree more. But fortunately, in reality, you generally get to see the and touch boulder for real. Given that this is a lazy armchair argument about a hypothetical gear placement as depicted in a random photograph, surely lazy arguments count? :-)

I did state that I wouldn't recommend, but if I happened to be half way up a 1000m hypothetical gritstone mountain route and that was the only option for retreat, I would be happy to use it.
Wesley Orvis - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

I have not been climbing long but i wouldn't top rope off the two photo's together, redundant and equalised.
Offwidth - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to EeeByGum:

Not quite.. even nice big safe fixed-in-solidly boulders sometimes suddenly become unsafe. Once a boulder like that can rock it won't take much to make it do so and cams under it or slings pulling up and over from around the back are best avoided. There was an accident like this at Froggatt a year or so back. So even your hypothetical case (with this probably safe example) when there is a bomber safer placement next door you would use that.
ads.ukclimbing.com
andic - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

You should have flogged all the slings, crabs and QD and sent them a cordalette!

In the third photo is the last SG clipped into the ironwork at the end of the slings?
andic - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

Surely the cam underneath and the sling on top are opposing and cancel out?
The Ex-Engineer - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to mkean:
> Oi, my maths is spot on; my input data was shoddy :-)

I'm afraid your maths was way off. A Wild Country cam has a cam angle of 13.75 degrees. The force multiplier is therefore 1/tan(13.75) = 4.08.

As alluded to, a top rope anchor (with a krab rather than a pulley) will experience a force of around 1.67 times the force the climber exerts on the rope. If the climber is taking small falls with an attentive belayer, this might amount to twice the force they would exert when hanging. That would give a working load of around 2.7kN for an 80kg climber and hence an 11kN force on the rock.

In general, to lift up the edge of an object you only need to exert a force equivalent to half its weight. As such, based on simple assumptions, any rock under 2.2tonnes would likely be unsafe.

I think your conclusions about volume and mass are fine, so taking all that together, your overall conclusion is probably valid. I would be happy with the cam but ONLY as one of two or three independent anchors.
The Ex-Engineer - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup: That's a lot of worth of gear. Did you actually work out how much it was worth?

My main thought is that 20m of rigging rope would be a damn sight cheaper and vastly quicker and better to rig with.
staceyjg - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

Although not related, thought I might mention this anyway, as your picture could be a direct result of the story I'm about to mention:

Hen Cloud on Saturday, belaying my partner on a route when we heard a shout from another butress "EXCUSE ME!!! Do you need two harnesses??, I've got a rope and 1 harness" Looked around to find a head peering around by Bishop's Climb, we replied with "yes, you need 2 people with a harness each" He replied with "aaaah, never really thought this through"

We saw them a little later at the top, got a harness and a set of 6 quick draws, still with their labels on, told them they need a little more than just a rope and a couple of harnesses, pointed them in the direction of their local wall or a climbing club and advised them to research a little before attempting to get out.

To be fair, the other guy did point our that they've been having a go without ropes and harnesses so far, but keep finding themselves in tricky situations scaring themselves stupid, so have decided to try it with a bit of safety. Hats off to them for giving it a go, but I hope they take the advise and get someone to show them how to do it properly.
neuromancer - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

knotted dyneema ewwwwwww
derryclimbs - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to staceyjg:

another classic from the annals of 'when idiots go climbing'
duchessofmalfi - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

he Ex-Engineer:

The force is ~2x. The 4x you have got is correct for _each lobe_ but for a standard camming device the force is 2x because the vertical forces (imposed along the rope) add up (thus each cam experience half the load) and the horizontal forces (against the crack wall) are equal...
ADHD on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup: i think they should get some professional instruction. Someone has obviously placed trust in them to rig a toprope for whatever purpose, the least they could do is do it properly
silo - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:They deserved to lose the gear! it is rightfully yours!You would be doing them a favour.
Landy_Dom on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:

Took a while to find this again.... But.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNnfGHKgAMI

Check out the cam placement under the boulder from about 4.00 to 5.00

Scary!

JanBella - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup: so you got just one cam under god knows what and sling clipped to it with a knot in the middle. why would you weaken your sling for no reason??? did you also cut it just for the extra edge? im nonna comment not even gonna comment on that lonely sling from another picture. i wonder how much you pay for your insurance mate
xplorer on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to JanBella:

Read the op kido
mockerkin on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
Because the protection points aren't shown fully, I would have to agree with the post above which says that a sling around photo 1, should be bigger and lower on the rock. That should be a solid anchor. The other pro. points I can't see well enough to say.
deepsoup - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to JanBella:
Ha ha, yeah I'm a shocker ain't I? :o)

It isn't a sling with a knot in the middle, it's two separate slings larks-footed together.
deepsoup - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
> My main thought is that 20m of rigging rope would be a damn sight cheaper and vastly quicker and better to rig with.

Mine too - the belays available just there with nothing but a rope and karabiner are so totally bomber it's almost comical.

I did wonder if the owner would turn out to be some penniless teenager with a bit of hand-me-down gear, and was thinking of presenting them with a short rigging rope when I return the kit. (I happen to have the tab end of a drum of 11mm LSK kicking about the place anyway.)

Not so though, apparently - grown up climber, aware that the setup was less than optimal but happy enough to trust it. As Voltaire might have said, I may not want to lower off your belay but I'll defend to the death your right to make it a sketchy one. (Assuming the informed consent of all parties, natch.)
deepsoup - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to Landy_Dom:
> Took a while to find this again.... But.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNnfGHKgAMI

Nice informative little vid, ta for the link. That commentary though - I'm going to listen to it again later if I can't sleep. ;o)
Offwidth - on 08 Apr 2013
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:

"In general, to lift up the edge of an object you only need to exert a force equivalent to half its weight." Thats for a flat block on a flat surface. Most boulders are not like that though. They can roll and can be balanced on a pivot or be beddied in on some soil that will give. I've moved a balanced block on the top of Great Arete at Wharncliffe, with a weighted hand-jam!
gd303uk - on 09 Apr 2013
In reply to deepsoup: a pile of crap no need for it to be as poor as that.
GrahamD - on 09 Apr 2013
In reply to gd303uk:

Well you only see what someone forgot to pick up - it might not have been that bad.
gd303uk - on 11 Apr 2013
In reply to GrahamD: just the larks foot conecting the slings is enough for that belay set up to be a pile of crap everything else is a bonus.
needvert on 11 Apr 2013
In reply to gd303uk:
> (In reply to GrahamD) just the larks foot conecting the slings is enough for that belay set up to be a pile of crap everything else is a bonus.

I was happy with the strop bend component, what's the problem there?
gd303uk - on 12 Apr 2013
In reply to needvert: why take the risk of reducing the slings strength with knots like that?


http://www.rescueresponse.com/store/techtips_joining_two_slings.html
needvert on 12 Apr 2013
In reply to gd303uk:

Probably worth mentioning falling on dyneema has in real world experience broken carabiners.

Say in the situation with two bolts set back from the edge, if I have to girth hitch (technically strop bend) two pairs of slings to reach I don't think twice, quite happy with the reduction in strength.

(I'm using 16mm nylon WC slings mostly for my TR anchors, am impressed with how little the strop bend reduces strength in the thicker nylon and dyneema slings.)

FWIW joining them with biners has its own downsides.
needvert on 13 Apr 2013
In reply to gd303uk:

(Interesting turn of events, the incident that caused study - John's sling breaking under bodyweight while girth hitched http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=269434&tn=0&mr=0 in the opinion of Mammut, sounds like the sling had been partially cut and failed not due to the fault of the girth hitch http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=469)

Related, BD sling testing:
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb/all/qc-lab-connecting-two-slings-together
needvert on 13 Apr 2013
More posting to myself...

What concerned me far more than girth hitching when reading all that, is it seems a mere 2-3 years aging can have a greater detriment to strength how you join slings.

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