/ Goliath's Groove

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Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
On Friday (3rd May) late afternoon I managed to onsight the route. My mate tried to get my camalot 4 out of the lower crack but it walked right in.
Whilst I was chuffed to get the route I was a little disappointed about the cam. Obviously for losing it (not cheap) but mainly for littering the route.
Can anybody tell me if it's still there or hopefully someone has managed to get it out.
If you have I'd be pleased to know - and whilst I wouldn't mind it back I kinda know that it's not likely to happen.
The tape has my name and old mobile number on it

Cheers

Mark

Ps I don't think I've ever struggled so much on a route :-)
Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: bump
outdoorsperson on 06 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: On wed last there was a cam stuck right into the crack on the first section. A friend of mine tried to remove it with no success. It has walked to the very rear of the crack making it near impossible to reach. So you may have to chalk this one up to experience.
Jamie B - on 06 May 2013
In reply to outdoorsperson:

Somebody will get it out, but a crowbar may be involved...
Offwidth - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:

Well done on the onsight anyhow. Thrutch and jam, bridge and jam or back and foot and jam?
Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to outdoorsperson: Yeh I saw the tape from that one. I wasn't so concerned about getting it back more about leaving the route littered.
Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B: I hope so, I know cams jam but I like to leave climbs as I found them and feel bad about littering the route
jimjimjim on 06 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: you managed to onsight it? You f**kin legend!!
Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth: Thanks was really chuffed. It was a left leg in the crack, right out on the wall, thrutch up, rest and repeat until exhaustion.
So knackered on the layback at the top I came so close to peeling off.
Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to jimjimjim: Yeh, I'm not sure if you're taking the piss ???
Kevster - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:

It is SOLID for HVS and very trad imo. I've seen E2 leaders fail on it. I'd take it as a compliment.
jimjimjim on 06 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: always...but in a nice way. ;)
Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to Kevster: Cheers mate, I think it might just have been a combination of brute force and ignorance and a good deal of luck - but I'm pleased, as having just started to get solid on VS I get very intimidated by the HVS grade although it's gotta be done if I ever want to achieve my goal of leading an E1.
jimjimjim on 06 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: if you got up gg without too much bother there are loads of grit e1s you'll piss up.
victim of mathematics - on 06 May 2013
In reply to jimjimjim:
> (In reply to Ciderslider) if you got up gg without too much bother there are loads of grit e1s you'll piss up.

Care to suggest any?

As gritstone HVS thrutchfests go, it's not very high in the grade.

To the OP - well done. I was made up when I did it as one of my first grit HVSs. It requires a certain fighting spirit and will to succeed that will serve you well in the future!
Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to jimjimjim: Ah cool, thanks, can you give me a couple of names for next time
Ciderslider - on 06 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics: Thanks
Offwidth - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:

He's right about it being pretty easy for an HVS fight (people lack skills these days)...Ramshaw awaits for the main event....you still haven't said how you did it but it sounds like thrutch and jam. You get to bridge it and back and foot it later (the weird ungradable method and the E1 version!). Someone above said some E2 leaders fail on it, maybe visitors, but certainly not grit E2 leaders.
Nick Russell on 07 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
> Someone above said some E2 leaders fail on it, maybe visitors, but certainly not grit E2 leaders.

I guess that makes me a visitor! I tried to bridge elegantly up without using the crack for anything more than protection. It didn't go very well.... I'll get back to my limestone now ;)

@Ciderslider: congrats on the lead!
Jonny2vests - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to jimjimjim)
> [...]
>
> Care to suggest any?
>
> As gritstone HVS thrutchfests go, it's not very high in the grade.
>
> To the OP - well done. I was made up when I did it as one of my first grit HVSs. It requires a certain fighting spirit and will to succeed that will serve you well in the future!

If you bridge / layback & jam, I'd say its pretty tough for HVS and there are plenty of E1s I thought were easier. Thats not the same as saying i found it hard before someone sticks the boot in. Que bollockings from Prof Yaffle for doing it wrong.
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victim of mathematics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Well the grade is for the easiest sequence, and it's blatantly obvious that that's going to be to get in it and writhe around like a good'un. It can't be helped if you lack the eyes to see that...

It's like laybacking The File and then claiming that it must be E4 :o
victim of mathematics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
>
> )...Ramshaw awaits for the main event....

What's the main event. Great Zawn? Green Crack?

jon on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> It's like laybacking The File and then claiming that it must be E4 :o

Brings to mind 'Jam the blank slab with difficulty'.
Robert Durran - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> Well the grade is for the easiest sequence, and it's blatantly obvious that that's going to be to get in it and writhe around like a good'un.

To me it was blatantly obvious to bridge it at a pleasantly technical tough HVS. It was equally blatantly obvious that to get in a writhe around was going to be desperate and feel about E3. Why turn a fun route into a hideous battle?
victim of mathematics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> To me it was blatantly obvious to bridge it at a pleasantly technical tough HVS.

Fair enough, just don't try and claim that the route is hard HVS.

It was equally blatantly obvious that to get in a writhe around was going to be desperate and feel about E3.

I can only imagine what an E3 gritstone thrash might feel like. Actually I can't. Given that Great Zawn is HVS, I struggle to comprehend anything above that.

If you want to upgrade any route that requires you to thrutch a bit, on the basis that thrutching is hard work, then be my guest. It'll do my logbook the power of good.

Why turn a fun route into a hideous battle?

Being in Scotland I'd have thought you'd be well positioned to answer that, or have you never been winter climbing ;)

Robert Durran - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Fair enough, just don't try and claim that the route is hard HVS.

Why not? Did you think it was easy HVS?

> I can only imagine what an E3 gritstone thrash might feel like.

I didn't say it was E3, just that it would feel like it (in the normal non-gritstone scheme of things). Not the same thing.

> If you want to upgrade any route that requires you to thrutch a bit.....

I don't want to upgrade it and it didn't make me thrurch at all.

> Being in Scotland I'd have thought you'd be well positioned to answer that, or have you never been winter climbing ;)

You might actually have a point there.

jon on 07 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

Rob, just a word. It was VS in the 70s.... oh yes.
victim of mathematics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> Why not? Did you think it was easy HVS?

Fairly, yes. It's definitely HVS, but relatively low in the grade. I've heard that said many times, which was one of the reasons I did it as one of my first grit HVSs.

>
> [...]
>
> I didn't say it was E3, just that it would feel like it (in the normal non-gritstone scheme of things). Not the same thing.
>

It's pretty difficult to draw comparison between the physical effort required to thrash up Goliath's Groove and the technical effort to climb your average E3. Which was why I was separating them out. An E3s worth of thrashing would be monumental.

>
> I don't want to upgrade it and it didn't make me thrurch at all.
>

Shame. Learn to embrace the dark arts of wedging and wriggling...


Ciderslider - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth: I think I did state how i did it in an earlier post - it was stick left leg in, left arse cheek against left wall and right foot out on the right wall. Then I seem to remember just struggling up in the position in short shuffles (whilst making sure the right foot didn't slip off.
The upper groove was a thin layback on tired arms.
I would take my hat off to anyone who bridges the lower section as it just looks a bit slippery in places.
Coel Hellier - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:

> An E3s worth of thrashing would be monumental.

Right Eliminate?

Goliath? (Not the groove.)
Ciderslider - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Nick Russell: Thanks mate, I did consider bridging but it just looked a bit polished in places (and sort of thin)
Robert Durran - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> It's pretty difficult to draw comparison between the physical effort required to thrash up Goliath's Groove and the technical effort to climb your average E3. Which was why I was separating them out. An E3s worth of thrashing would be monumental.

A gritstone's HVS worth of thrashing requires the effort of most "normal" E3's!

But I know what you mean. Thrashing is generally hard to grade if not ungradeable (at least in practice if not in principle).
JLS on 07 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:

>"I did consider bridging but it just looked a bit polished in places (and sort of thin)"

...but you wouldn't have lost your cam as there wouldn't have been the need to place it so deep!

Regards,
A.N. Other Bridger
Offwidth - on 07 May 2013
In reply to jon:

It still feels like VS to me but I'm a specialist (so I'd grade it HVS). A couple of kneebar moves to a perfect corner jamming crack is easier than many a tough VS gritstone climb. It's only in the last but one BMC guide that Doncaster's got upgraded to HVS and that shares the same start.
Jonny2vests - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> Well the grade is for the easiest sequence, and it's blatantly obvious that that's going to be to get in it and writhe around like a good'un. It can't be helped if you lack the eyes to see that...
>
> It's like laybacking The File and then claiming that it must be E4 :o

Thrutching is something I do when I've run out of options. Bridging it etc, just seems way more interesting and what the route screams out to you when you look at it. But if all your after is the tick, then go ahead and thrutch :-)

victim of mathematics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> Thrutching is something I do when I've run out of options. Bridging it etc, just seems way more interesting and what the route screams out to you when you look at it.

Then you're looking at it all wrong. Don't get me wrong, I like bridging as much as the next man, but there's something irresistible about a gaping fissure...

But if all your after is the tick, then go ahead and thrutch :-)

I'd say the same to you about bridging. Channel your inner tweedy Victorian!
CurlyStevo - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
I'm pretty good at thrutching and jamming (but perhaps not a specialist although I do tend to seek out these climbs and there is quite a few on southern sandstone) and it definitely felt HVS to me. I thought being able to use the Jams on the crux was HVS 5a as they are pretty flaring and nothing like what I'd call a perfect corner jamming crack. I found the crux to be getting past the knee jams to a position where you can get stood on good foot jams where the crack starts to narrow.
CurlyStevo - on 07 May 2013
Although that said the effort crux could just be making upward progress on the knee jams ;)
victim of mathematics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to jon)
>
> It's only in the last but one BMC guide that Doncaster's got upgraded to HVS and that shares the same start.

That always baffled me, since the start is clearly the crux. It's the same with Knight's Move and Peter's Progress (except there perhaps both should be VS).
Offwidth - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Plenty more out there. people moan about the classics and they get upgraded and the minor lines get left behind. I climb everything I can.
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deepsoup - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> That always baffled me, since the start is clearly the crux.

Back in the day, I believe the crux was thought to be the layback above the bit where Doncaster's Route goes off to the right.

If so, I agree with the old-timers - being relatively good at offwidthy thrutching but not very strong, I definitely didn't think the crux was at the start.
CurlyStevo - on 07 May 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
hmmm I though the upper section more like VS (there are certainly harder VS laybacks on grit, alter crack for example, offwidth Im sure knows others), the left wall is quite slaby and has good smears to walk your feet up on.
victim of mathematics - on 07 May 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> hmmm I though the upper section more like VS (there are certainly harder VS laybacks on grit, alter crack for example, offwidth Im sure knows others), the left wall is quite slaby and has good smears to walk your feet up on.

I agree. I can thrutch, and I can't layback for toffee, but I thought the top was fine.
In reply to victim of mathematics:

>
> That always baffled me, since the start is clearly the crux. It's the same with Knight's Move and Peter's Progress (except there perhaps both should be VS).

Perhaps the Goliath's/Doncaster's and Knight's Move/Peter's Progress anomalies were designed as reminders that grading isn't an exact science!

Either that or something weird to do with the fact that they all have apostrophes!


Chris

;-)
Robert Durran - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
>
> That always baffled me, since the start is clearly the crux.

Yes, presumably, then, whether you thrutch or bridge. I don't even remember anything about the upper bit - must have been a path in comparison!
Simon Caldwell - on 07 May 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
Maybe the start is easier with big (nailed) boots?
deepsoup - on 07 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> I agree. I can thrutch, and I can't layback for toffee

Apparently not as well, and better, than me!

Or maybe it was just all in my head. I've only done GG the once, so maybe another time it'd feel completely different.

I did do very well on the start - it was all fists and knees (and even a stacked jam), but I don't remember swearing, grunting or gurning so for me that barely counts as thrutching at all. ;o)
deepsoup - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Toreador:
> Maybe the start is easier with big (nailed) boots?

And the top harder? That could be it. :o)
I think I did it in baggy old Sportiva Mythos's with big woolly socks.
bill briggs1 - on 07 May 2013
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to deepsoup)
> Maybe the start is easier with big (nailed) boots?

The start is a perfect fit for boots ( rubber soles ) . There is a picture of 4 members of the Alpha Club soloing GG at the same time in old bendy boots in the front of Al Parker's book " Alpha Males " . When it was graded vs in the old guides it was always seen as a medium vs . As for Doncasters route , it always felt a much easier solo than GG hence the grade difference to my mind.
Jonny2vests - on 07 May 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to victim of mathematics)
> [...]
>
> I did do very well on the start - it was all fists and knees (and even a stacked jam), but I don't remember swearing, grunting or gurning so for me that barely counts as thrutching at all. ;o)

Wow. I'll take beautiful delicate techy bridging over that any day.
Jamie B - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:

I'd agree that it's low in the grade, one of my first HVS leads. The start can be tough but with a big cam is not committing, then you have a pleasant VS finish. It's a brilliantly arresting line, the first time I walked past it (en-route to something else) I simply had to drop everything and jump on it!
Gordon Stainforth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:

The problem with the route is that after a very puzzling (or should that be, interesting?) start, the rest of it is unmemorably straightforward.
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jamie B:
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
>
> I'd agree that it's low in the grade, one of my first HVS ...

Haha, don't be daft, its certainly not LOW in the grade no matter how you do it.

Did you thrutch it or climb it?
Dave Garnett - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:
>
> Ps I don't think I've ever struggled so much on a route :-)

You have a world of fun waiting for you at Curbar, the Roaches, Ramshaw, Chatsworth... !
Offwidth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

It has to be lower half HVS though. There are numerous easier graded routes down to severe out there with the same difficulty of start.

Its not really thrutching either...warning beta alert...left knee lock as high as possible, press off right wall to place right foot smear. Press/lean carefully off left wall countering off side of cleft to shuffle knee up. Repeat once or twice. Hand jams arrive.

To counter Gordon's point I think the rest of it holds up nicely as its no push-over at VS if you used a step ladder and much more interesting above the crux than say Sorell's Sorrow.

Gordon Stainforth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

I remember the bulk of GG as being quite disappointing - the sort of thing we used to dismiss as '2A at Harrisons'. ... Isn't Sorrell's Sorrow some real horror story in the Chew Valley? Can't really see that they have much in common.
pec on 08 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:
I thought Goliath's was quite a soft touch for HVS, as thrutching goes it felt quite secure and easy to protect with a large cam and the crux is at the start, its not a surprise it only used to get VS.
People finding the opposite suggests to me how reliant we have become on climbing walls to improve, folk could crimp for England but only thrutch for San Marino.
Its the same in Wales with solid VS leaders getting sandbagged by 3 star "classic" V.Diffs because they can't chimney.
Ciderslider - on 08 May 2013
In reply to pec:
> (In reply to Ciderslider)

> People finding the opposite suggests to me how reliant we have become on climbing walls to improve, folk could crimp for England but only thrutch for San Marino.

I have to living in Sussex, but in the next life I'm gonna live in Hathersage and start climbing at 6 ;-)

I think which ever way you look at it the routes no path (at whatever grade you wanna give it)

It was just good honest thrutchy hard work.


Ciderslider - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: As a footnote a very decent person who climbed the route after me has been in touch to say the cam has gone - so I'm happy.

And if you're sitting here reading this and you've got my cam look after it and I hope it brings you the relevant crag karma
Simon Caldwell - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> Haha, don't be daft, its certainly not LOW in the grade no matter how you do it.

Agreed, it's quite high in the grade (the grade in question being VS 4c)
Offwidth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Your memory is faulty. GG after the start is a VS jamming crack to the ledge and a superbly positioned VS layback to finish. Sorrel's is a Curbar classic HVS and is an undercut crack/cleft needing pugalism to reach the easier crack climbing above. Having said that Harrisons 2a can be not far off Uk 4c.
Gordon Stainforth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, my memory is indeed faulty. It's some 44 years since I climbed GG :))
JLS on 08 May 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>"Yes, my memory is indeed faulty."

Ah, and so Fiva was really about the weekend you and your brother got lost on Kinder Scout for about an hour before stumbling down Kinder Downfall and hitching back to Hathersage the same day you set out. :¬)
Phil Blue - on 08 May 2013
I was very thankful for the air down rest after the tough start :)
Went for bridging as high as friction allowed, then camming the right foot in to struggle over the first bulge.

As for how hard it is I've soloed several HVSs but I'm glad I lead this one :D
First fall on a cam too xD
Offwidth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to ZappyChutoy:

Its a tough E1 if you bridge, you just climbed it a harder way than those saying its lower HVS. It's even harder if you tie a hand behind your back yet the route remains an easier HVS.
Kevster - on 08 May 2013
In reply to ZappyChutoy:

Imagine doing it with hexes and nuts only.
The big cams at the start make life a lot more comfortable.
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to pec, offwidth, Toreador, and lots of other people that respectfully don't perhaps stretch beyond HVS often and therefore have a biased opinion but will probably bite when they see this:

> I thought Goliath's was quite a soft touch for HVS

Well 600 odd votes in the log book say you're wrong.

> People finding the opposite suggests to me how reliant we have become on climbing walls to improve, folk could crimp for England but only thrutch for San Marino.

Hey, I live in the capital of thrutching, any time you fancy a thrutch off on a real crack, give me a shout :-)
In reply to Kevster:

Going further back there were no runners, just a chockstone belay at half-height. That was when the 2nd pitch really was the crux.


Chris
victim of mathematics - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

I'd respectfully suggest that people operating at or around the grade are those best placed to comment on it.

As for votes - surely you learned a long time ago that most people are basically idiots who don't know their arse from their elbow?
Offwidth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

Of course I'll bite: UKC votes are worthless at the half grade distinction in many such cases. They will for example in as large numbers have the easiest of Stanage VS climbs (an easy place for grit VS in any case) as close to mid grade. Another recent example is a climb at Crookrise that Toreador and I immediately recognised as a real sandbag (in the top end severe to HS territory; tricky and bold) where all the votes fell in the VD to HVD range (partly a fault of the voting system I know but logic would suggest at least a strong majority at the top grade).
Simon Caldwell - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> lots of other people that respectfully don't perhaps stretch beyond HVS often and therefore have a biased opinion

I have done very, very few HVSs on the sharp end. But a lot of VSs. And have seconded (and failed to second) a fair number of HVSs. So if I find a route well within my comfort zone, it's generally more likely to be VS than tough HVS.

I do find thrutchy routes easier than most though, so am prepared to accept it might be soft HVS ;-)

Zapple Left Hand, on the other hand, is non-thrutchy, and no more than mid-VS...
deepsoup - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
I'll bite too, in a boringly statistical kind of a way..

> Well 600 odd votes in the log book say you're wrong.

The graph on the logbook doesn't show 600 odd votes, I presume this is because of the various changes to the system over time.

The graph actually shows 232 votes, broken down as follows:

Easy - E1: 3
Hard HVS: 103
- - - - HVS: 103
Easy HVS: 15
Hard - VS: 8
In reply to Offwidth:
>
> Of course I'll bite: UKC votes are worthless at the half grade distinction in many such cases. They will for example in as large numbers have the easiest of Stanage VS climbs (an easy place for grit VS in any case) as close to mid grade.

Of course they are not 'worthless'. With your intimate knowledge of how hundreds of climbers vote it just takes a little adjustment to become a perfectly accurate set of stats.


Chris (only a teeny bit tongue in cheek)
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
> I'll bite too, in a boringly statistical kind of a way..
>
> [...]
>
> The graph on the logbook doesn't show 600 odd votes, I presume this is because of the various changes to the system over time.
>
> The graph actually shows 232 votes, broken down as follows:
>
> Easy - E1: 3
> Hard HVS: 103
> - - - - HVS: 103
> Easy HVS: 15
> Hard - VS: 8

Well that still works in my favour I think. Thanks.
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> Of course I'll bite: UKC votes are worthless at the half grade distinction in many such cases.

Prof Y,

Rejecting the opinions of your peers outright seems a tad aloof don't you think?
In reply to Jonny2vests:
>
>
> Rejecting the opinions of your peers outright seems a tad aloof don't you think?

He had already pinned his colours to the mast in the thread about the reason Curbar was so quiet recently.

"Normal, as people are dumb"


Chris
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> I'd respectfully suggest that people operating at or around the grade are those best placed to comment on it.

Surely that is a failure in logic. How can you be consistent and objective with all those extra variables swimming around in there; stress, pressure, missing holds, doing it wrong... Plus, you'll only have a small sample to choose from. To save you writing it, I also accept the The counter argument that those operating too far above grade N, will often not be objective either.

> As for votes - surely you learned a long time ago that most people are basically idiots who don't know their arse from their elbow?

I'm sure there are plenty of those :-) But I'd argue that 600+ votes with a distribution peaking on the HVS+ side is big enough to get rid of the outliers.
Christheclimber - on 08 May 2013
In reply to jon:

It was a two pitch VS in my first guide
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
> [...]

> "Normal, as people are dumb"

Academics!
johncoxmysteriously - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:

Strange how things change. GG was always regarded as a very easy HVS. I can't be bothered to check the voting, but I wonder how it deals with real tough HVSses like Terrazza Crack, Tower Crack, etc, etc.

No doubt by upgrading all of those to E1.

jcm
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CurlyStevo - on 08 May 2013
In reply to deepsoup:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
> I'll bite too, in a boringly statistical kind of a way..
>
> [...]
>
> The graph on the logbook doesn't show 600 odd votes, I presume this is because of the various changes to the system over time.
>
> The graph actually shows 232 votes, broken down as follows:
>
> Easy - E1: 3
> Hard HVS: 103
> - - - - HVS: 103
> Easy HVS: 15
> Hard - VS: 8

I believe (from voting on routes I've added!) the votes counter counts all the votes for the 3 categories (ie stars, tech grade, adj grade) which explains why there are roughly a third of the total on the adj grade.
Simon Caldwell - on 08 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> I wonder how it deals with real tough HVSses like Terrazza Crack, Tower Crack

both have a clear majority for Hard HVS, easy 5b

To those who think that votes can be relied on: how do you explain that Zapple Left Hand is voted mid-to-high HVS/hard 5a, whereas the significantly more difficult direct route is mid-to-high HVS/5b?
Offwidth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

You're right there about academics... the evidence leads the view. It may be unfashionable to be rude but too many voters are clearly voting without proper thought or experince and Curbar is an astonishing crag and should be busier. Democracy may be a least worst way to run countries but is a poor way to deal with grades and quality.
johncoxmysteriously - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Toreador:

>both have a clear majority for Hard HVS, easy 5b

Yeah. Well, it's a strange world.

jcm
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
>
> You're right there about academics... the evidence leads the view.

Surely you mean YOUR evidence leads the view. The logbook appears to be evidence (plus coloured noise).

> Democracy may be a least worst way to run countries but is a poor way to deal with grades and quality.

I thought we were more of an anarcho-syndicalist commune?
Offwidth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

I mean climbers like you and me and thousands of others of similar experience who know the style of climbing required on the route and lead close enough to that grade to be able to tell. We all make mistakes from time to time missing easiest sequences and we will have the odd disagreement but we will on average (and of only a few of us) soon agree say that Inverted V is roughly speaking an easy VS. Of course the logbook votes are also evidence, just with bigger error bars as we know from the hundreds of logbook votes that Inverted V isn't an HVS nor an easy HS but the average is only just below midgrade VS. Which view would you trust?

Some would maintain you can't tell between easy mid and tough VS climbs but I know I can. On Stanage the votes for Thrombosis, that experienced climbers think is almost a full grade harder than Inverted V come out as third quarter up in UKC votes. So what is happening here? Well, the Psychologists will talk of confirmation bias (and other biases) and I will add different demographics in terms of experience at the grade (not the same people voting). Low in the grade classics are boosted up by up to half a grade and hard classics tend to be pushed down a little. Some good ways to make the data better would be simply to ask people not to vote at their limit and have a vote slot for the border. It only takes half the voter population to get things wrong by half a grade to push things up by a quarter grade on Inverted V.

Knowing these distortions allows Alan and his team to pin down grades pretty well with a guestimate but the data from the votes is still wrong. Rockfax are happy to over-rule silly voting averages in this. As an example 3PS is HVS in the latest guide (the UKC votes say quarter up E1 with the same low-in-the-grade classic up-bias); BMC say its E0 (in all but the label...sorry again for that Fiend with hindsight we should have overruled on that one).

Even anarcho-syndicalist communes (climbing’s moved on from this) have the sense to ignore dumb views.
In reply to Offwidth:
A specialist what?
paul mitchell - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: The worse the friction,the harder the climb.
Friction is now much less on Goliath's Groove after many thousands of people have flailed in its charming grip.
Ditto Chequer's Crack on Froggatt.

People who did these routes many years ago think they are still hvs.They are not.The friction on both is now pretty bad compared to what they used to offer.The final layback on G Groove is pretty hairy as a solo on a warm day,so I have now stopped soloing it,unless I exit up the right arete.The lower section is also well polished and getter harder.
Mitch

Gordon Stainforth - on 08 May 2013
In reply to paul mitchell:
> (In reply to Ciderslider) The worse the friction,the harder the climb.
> Friction is now much less on Goliath's Groove after many thousands of people have flailed in its charming grip.
> Ditto Chequer's Crack on Froggatt.
>

Yes, a crucial point. This has undoubtedly happened on many grit classics. Chequer's Crack is an outstanding example. Others are Saul's Climb and The Peapod, both of which are a lot more demanding technically because of polish and/or reduced friction.
In reply to Offwidth:

Pugalism- a niche climbing practice used to ascend a rock climb by utilising the aid of a small wrinkly dog and one of their body cavities- in my limited vocabulary/ understanding and imagination, related to, but not quite:

Pugilism - Boxing,a combat sport in which two people engage in a contest of strength, speed, reflexes, throwing punches with gloved, clenched hands/ fists.

I have just got onto this thread this evening, and feel your verbalisation/intellectualisation of this route, which in itself is a tremendous route of character, makes me want........zzzzzzzzzz.
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to paul mitchell:
> (In reply to Ciderslider) The worse the friction,the harder the climb.
> Friction is now much less on Goliath's Groove after many thousands of people have flailed in its charming grip.

Yes, a point I often bring up when we end up talking about GG, but the thrutchers of course wont really notice that. It's good evidence though that plenty of people out there prefer not to thrutch.
johncoxmysteriously - on 08 May 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>Chequer's Crack is an outstanding example.

I don't know about that. CC was as slippery as a very slippery thing in 1982 and my impression is that since then it's had about two ascents per year.

jcm
pec on 08 May 2013
In reply to paul mitchell:

> People who did these routes many years ago think they are still hvs.They are not.The friction on both is now pretty bad compared to what they used to offer >

The friction on the rock has got worse but the friction on your feet has got a lot better as it has on your hands now we all use chalk. Re Goliaths, it was VS before cams were even invented let alone big monster cams which allow it to be well protected with very little faff.

pec on 08 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> (In reply to pec, offwidth, Toreador, and lots of other people that respectfully don't perhaps stretch beyond HVS often and therefore have a biased opinion but will probably bite when they see this) >

If I don't stretch beyond HVS very often (and you've no idea whether I do or not) surely I'd be more likely to find HVS's harder, not easier?

> Well 600 odd votes in the log book say you're wrong.>

The votes suggest to me there are a lot climbers of out there who can't thrutch which bears out my point about climbing walls and crimping.
There are probably also a lot of votes from VS climbers pushing their grade because they've heard its low in the grade.
There are also probably a lot of votes from climbers who just haven't been climbing that long and haven't got much to judge it by.

Personally, I'd rather trust the opinions of 6 climbers with 20+ years climbing on grit behind them than 600 of the above.

> Hey, I live in the capital of thrutching, any time you fancy a thrutch off on a real crack, give me a shout :-)>

I like a good thrutch (check out my profile pic), I might take you up on that:-)

victim of mathematics - on 08 May 2013
In reply to pec:

Is that Delilah?
pec on 08 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:

> Is that Delilah? >
Yes and it makes the thrutching on Goliath's feel like pocket pulling!

victim of mathematics - on 08 May 2013
In reply to pec:

It looks totally awesome :)

(yes, I am aware this makes me a wrong'un)
Jonny2vests - on 08 May 2013
In reply to pec:
> (In reply to paul mitchell)
>
> [...]
>
> The friction on the rock has got worse but the friction on your feet has got a lot better as it has on your hands now we all use chalk. Re Goliaths, it was VS before cams were even invented let alone big monster cams which allow it to be well protected with very little faff.

You're timeline is a little skewed. The sticky rubber revolution was over 30 years ago. GG has had a lot of feet on it since then.
Simon Caldwell - on 09 May 2013
In reply to paul mitchell:
> People who did these routes many years ago think they are still hvs.They are not

That suggests you think that GG is E1 - which puts you in an even tinier minority than those of us who think it's VS
victorclimber - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: of course to put things into perspective twould be VD maybe Severe at the Cliff ..Alms..
ads.ukclimbing.com
Offwidth - on 09 May 2013
In reply to paul mitchell:

Polish has got worse but not that much.

Anyhow most votors are giving GG HVS for the start, not the finish (a couple of metres of hard work above a good flat rock platform needs to be a good bit harder IMHO to make it an average HVS). When it was VS and the friction was good, the top was unprotected.

My main argument is one of consistency: I'll grade for the grade creep UKC avarege but when such routes come out as hard and genuine brutes come out as not much harder from the top of the HVS graded list, something is going badly wrong. A few examples going down from the top of the BMC graded list: Suzzanne only slightly harder; Rusty Wall about the same; Greengrocer Wall easier; Tower Crack marginally harder; Kelly's Overhang half a grade up (at last we have one, but only half a grade, really!?); Terrazza Crack marginally harder; ........
Jon Stewart - on 09 May 2013
In reply to victorclimber:
> (In reply to Ciderslider) of course to put things into perspective twould be VD maybe Severe at the Cliff ..Alms..

It would fit in quite well at Almscliff, being polished, unpleasant and wildly overrated. I think it would be VS at Almscliff, but still slightly harder than Great Western.
bill briggs1 - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:

Have been thinking since my earlier post when I said GG was a mid grade vs.
If you climbed it in the 60/70s it was a mid grade vs. As a young climber working my way through the Stanage / Froggatt guides the markers were,

vs mild - central trinity . mld - goliaths groove . hard - surprise.
Hvs mild - congo corner . mid - chequers crack . hard - undercut crack.
Exs mild - left unconquerable , mid - rasp , hard - goliath.

The grades were compressed by the coverall extremely severe. Today the grading system has expanded and so we say GG is hvs, seems to be the consensus.

What ever grade we say it is, its very straight forward as grit goes. You have all seen " Crack School " vids on this site. Its not a new technique , take the weight on you feet , keep your arms low , step up and repeat . As for losing gear , the bottom crack has always has a bit of gear in it at some time or other from drilled nuts , moacs , friends etc. ( just a note found my 26th cam stuck in a route at Tremadog last week , when will it end. ).
Jon Stewart - on 09 May 2013
In reply to bill briggs1:
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
>

> If you climbed it in the 60/70s it was a mid grade vs. As a young climber working my way through the Stanage / Froggatt guides the markers were,
>
> vs mild - central trinity . mld - goliaths groove . hard - surprise.
> Hvs mild - congo corner . mid - chequers crack . hard - undercut crack.
> Exs mild - left unconquerable , mid - rasp , hard - goliath.
>

Chequers crack easier than LU has always been a joke then. I haven't done Undercut Crack (wouldn't stand a chance) but the idea of that being easier than LU (a jug-ladder) is totally absurd.

I guess the lesson is that grades used to be random, and now they're random with a tendency for things to be graded a bit harder than they used to be.
Robert Durran - on 09 May 2013
In reply to bill briggs1:
> Exs mild - left unconquerable , mid - rasp , hard - goliath.

> What ever grade we say it is, its very straight forward as grit goes.

Left Unconquerable and The Rasp both have more straightforward climbing than Goliath's Groove. However, I would give Left Unconquerable the same grade and The Rasp one grade higher than GG on the grounds of pumpiness. For a fit climber, GG would be the hardest lead.
victim of mathematics - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> I guess the lesson is that grades used to be random, and now they're random with a tendency for things to be graded a bit harder than they used to be.

The lesson is that grades used to be pretty random, and now they're considerably less random, but keeping them that way is hard, because lots of people are idiots, who want to upgrade everything that they find hard. Just leave it to the people who know what they're doing, and it will all be fine...

:o
Jon Stewart - on 09 May 2013
In reply to victim of mathematics:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> [...]
>
> The lesson is that grades used to be pretty random, and now they're considerably less random

I don't think that trend has reached Yorkshire yet. Even when people put up new boulder problems, they still use the 'numberwang' grading technique.
Al Evans on 09 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
>
> Well done on the onsight anyhow. Thrutch and jam, bridge and jam or back and foot and jam?

For gods sake, it was first done in 1947, even before I was born, with no modern gear obviously and just loads of skill and determination, why is the 'onsight' in 2013 'Well done'?
CurlyStevo - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
because a lot of people fail on it!
Christheclimber - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> For gods sake, it was first done in 1947, even before I was born, with no modern gear obviously and just loads of skill and determination, why is the 'onsight' in 2013 'Well done'?

You have taken the words right out of my mouth, what is all the fuss about?
Jon Stewart - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...] why is the 'onsight' in 2013 'Well done'?

By that logic, only climbers who put up hard new routes (which are generally pretty hard now and often done by people who are really talented, dedicated and basically don't do anything except go climbing) are worthy of 'well done'. And that's not very generous.

metal arms on 09 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> For gods sake, it was first done in 1947, even before I was born, with no modern gear obviously and just loads of skill and determination, why is the 'onsight' in 2013 'Well done'?

That was a very curmudgeonly comment. Well done. I think it was just manners. The guy was clearly pleased with himself for getting up it and Offwidth didn't want to say 'Yeah well, it's only VS so you must be shit'. At least that's what I guess anyway.
Coel Hellier - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:

> ... why is the 'onsight' in 2013 'Well done'?

"Well done" doesn't have to be with respect to leading standards. One can say "well done" to a teenager for getting a decent crop of GCSEs, and not withhold the "well done" until they've got their Nobel Prize.

Anyhow, isn't it true that the median leading grade is about S and that the majority of climbers will never lead above VS? By that standard, onsighting a testing HVS is an achievement, as is someone's first E1 lead, etc.

Heck, at the weekend I said "well done" to a climber on leading a Diff (he's 13 and it was his first lead placing his own gear).
jtpj777 - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:

Aren't you supposed to climb GG wearing a boot on your left foot and a rock shoe on your right? I remember that was what I was told!
CurlyStevo - on 09 May 2013
In reply to jtpj777:
I think you'd have some fun on the upper section with that combo also I can't imagine the foot locks in the upper section of the lower crack will be as bomber in a walking boot. Perhaps you should try ;)
GridNorth - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: I've climbed GG in both Sportiva Trangos, the old green ones, and modern rock shoes. I seem to recall that it was slightly easier in the Sportivas.
victim of mathematics - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> For gods sake, it was first done in 1947, even before I was born, with no modern gear obviously and just loads of skill and determination, why is the 'onsight' in 2013 'Well done'?

You're right. I'm going to give up now. I can never be as good as Ron Fawcett, so I might as well hang myself...

Don't be such an arse.
Ciderslider - on 09 May 2013
In reply to paul mitchell: Thank you, if it had not had the polish on the right wall at the bottom I think it would have been MUCH easier
CurlyStevo - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:
did you use the pebbles on the right wall for your feet?
Ciderslider - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran: I am pretty fit for a middle aged very slightly chubby 50 something - I find jug pulling ok - so next time I'm up I'm gonna chuck myself up Right Unconquerable then maybe left
ads.ukclimbing.com
Ciderslider - on 09 May 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo: Didn't really notice any - couple of right foot placements seemed ok - but a bit slippy in places.
Ciderslider - on 09 May 2013
In reply to metal arms:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> That was a very curmudgeonly comment. Well done. I think it was just manners. The guy was clearly pleased with himself for getting up it and Offwidth didn't want to say 'Yeah well, it's only VS so you must be shit'. At least that's what I guess anyway.

I am actually shit, but will always take a well done ;-)
Offwidth - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: I've followed your progress on here and mean what I said: you deserve praise for taking on real challenges rather than seeking easy ticks. I also mean my view of it being an easy HVS if experienced enough with the required techniques (many are not and will have a harder time but this shouldn't change the grade). My main message on grades and UKC votes is please dont think from UKC votes that something like Tower Crack is only slightly harder (climb that cleanly at any time and I'll buy you a pint!!).
johncoxmysteriously - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

>My main message on grades and UKC votes is please dont think from UKC votes that something like Tower Crack is only slightly harder

Oh, please do!

Why, I can feel some sort of challenge to the 600-votes-can't-be-wrong brigade coming on....

jcm
Al Evans on 09 May 2013
In reply to Coel Hellier: That's fair enough Coel, but really 'well done' for leading a route on sight that was first done on sight over 50 years ago is pushing it a bit.
Offwidth - on 09 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Its all becoming clear now... half the UKC votors think Lazarus is S/HS 4b:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28786

Oh shit maybe its not so clear... The Arete (which I'd say is about the same adjectivally as Lazarus being still bold despite modern pro) is still only a tough VD.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28787
victim of mathematics - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier) That's fair enough Coel, but really 'well done' for leading a route on sight that was first done on sight over 50 years ago is pushing it a bit.

What if the climber was afflicted with terminal uselessness? Or only had one arm? Achievement is all relative, otherwise 99.9% of us are useless.
Jonny2vests - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Coel Hellier) That's fair enough Coel, but really 'well done' for leading a route on sight that was first done on sight over 50 years ago is pushing it a bit.

Where would you lay the 'well done' threshold at Al?
pec on 09 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> (In reply to pec)

> You're timeline is a little skewed. The sticky rubber revolution was over 30 years ago. GG has had a lot of feet on it since then. >

My timeline isn't skewed at all. Goliath's was given VS in my old Paul Nunn guide which was published in 1975. Jerry Moffat had the first pair of sticky rubber Fires in about 1982.
It may well have been less polished in '75 but it was considered VS with non sticky rock shoes, (rock Wellingtons would be a more accurate description of the EB's most people were wearing back then), and certainly there were no cams big enough to protect it.

Robert Durran - on 09 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) I am pretty fit for a middle aged very slightly chubby 50 something - I find jug pulling ok - so next time I'm up I'm gonna chuck myself up Right Unconquerable then maybe Left.

Go for it, but note that the Right is harder than the Left! (Unless you can't jam and like rounded finishes)

Jonny2vests - on 10 May 2013
In reply to pec:
> (In reply to Jonny2vests)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> My timeline isn't skewed at all. Goliath's was given VS in my old Paul Nunn guide which was published in 1975. Jerry Moffat had the first pair of sticky rubber Fires in about 1982.
> It may well have been less polished in '75 but it was considered VS with non sticky rock shoes, (rock Wellingtons would be a more accurate description of the EB's most people were wearing back then)

Yes, I'm sure lots of us owned pairs of those. And the way you describe doing it, it would probably be easier in wellies anyway, what use is sticky rubber if you're just going to thrutch up the back?
xplorer on 10 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:

There are some right nob heads on UKC, constantly looking to put someone down. I really don't understand your middle aged brains.
jimjimjim on 10 May 2013
In reply to xplorer: middle aged?
John Gillott - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Ciderslider)
> [...]
>
> Go for it, but note that the Right is harder than the Left! (Unless you can't jam and like rounded finishes)

Robert - the guidebooks disagree with you; are you confusing your right and your left (unconquerables)?

I'm with Bill B's rankings based on late 60s and 70s perceptions, with the exception of Congo Corner which I and the people I knew always regarded as middle-to-tough HVS. But then, fashions change and perhaps the average climber is now better at pulling on small holds and less good at thrutching up corners / grooves. There's no good reason to say one age group's bias is more 'correct' than another's. If a large enough group today finds Goliath's Groove solid HVS then that's probably right now.
CurlyStevo - on 10 May 2013
In reply to John Gillott:
"If a large enough group today finds Goliath's Groove solid HVS then that's probably right now. "

good point!
dr_botnik - on 10 May 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo: I'll accept its solid HVS from anyone who's climbed The Mincer.
Robert Durran - on 10 May 2013
In reply to John Gillott:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> Robert - the guidebooks disagree with you; are you confusing your right and your left (unconquerables)?

I know the guidebook disagrees and I am deliberately being a bit mischievous! However, I have genuinely always found the Right harder; to me the Left is just more straightforward climbing - easy jamming, then a couple of tricky moves to the biggest jugs in the world, whereas the right is continuous hard work to an awkward finish when possibly a bit pumped.
GrahamD - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think there is a sizeable minority that agree with you that LU being easier than RU. It is for me. Thats not the same as saying the grades are wrong, of course, just the styles and challenge are different.
Ciderslider - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran: Can't wait to get back up there and have a go - they are both well protected as well - happy days !
John Gillott - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

This may be one of those situations in which the best people to grade something are those who find the respective routes near their limit. I also think the Right is tricky; I probably find it about the same as the Left. But I remember that I did the Right before I did the Left and I felt that I was making progress when I went from one to the other.
ads.ukclimbing.com
In reply to John Gillott:
>
>
> I'm with Bill B's rankings based on late 60s and 70s perceptions, with the exception of Congo Corner which I and the people I knew always regarded as middle-to-tough HVS. But then, fashions change and perhaps the average climber is now better at pulling on small holds and less good at thrutching up corners / grooves. There's no good reason to say one age group's bias is more 'correct' than another's. If a large enough group today finds Goliath's Groove solid HVS then that's probably right now.

A good point, any seasoned gritstoner 'knows' that GG is a soft HVS, but as you say fashions change and if 90%+ of climbers are having a tough time then maybe we need a little reassessment. On the other hand if you don't have the right skill set you will find everything hard!


Chris
Robert Durran - on 10 May 2013
In reply to John Gillott:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> This may be one of those situations in which the best people to grade something are those who find the respective routes near their limit. I also think the Right is tricky; I probably find it about the same as the Left. But I remember that I did the Right before I did the Left and I felt that I was making progress when I went from one to the other.

The Left was my first ever E1, so I'm definitely taking the E point however soft! I suppose I just find the Left more enjoyable; I would find it very hard to walk past it without roping up and doing it just for the joy of the climbing (unlike the Right). Same as its not possible to walk past Heaven Crack without soloing it a couple of times.

Offwidth - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Thats the crux of the issue isnt it? The votes allow people without experience and skill to have the same impact as those that do. If A finds offwidths OK and crimpy climbs really hard (becuase of never 'pushing' on crimpy routes) and B vice versa how do you ever get any consenseus? The only way to grade is for adequate skill levels. To me that means the route should be lower HVS, even though for me it 'feels' like a VS (as I'm relatively strong in this area for my lead grade) and I'd rather lead it than many a HS. The votes say Tower Crack is just harder thn GG almost certainly becuase only experinced climbers with the right skill set climb Tower Crack; if only those same people voted for GG I'd give short odds it would come out as soft HVS.

If people were more honest and voted taking into acount their skills it wouldn't matter but the evidence shows that they are not. It's not just lack of skill either: the comments are littered with stuff like 'that feels piss for the grade' when of course it does if suits your strengths.
Al Evans on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran: The Left is not soft, its a middle E1, the Right is top end HVS, I know which I would rather have soloed! Its almost immposible to fall off the Right. When I first did GG I wimped out of the upper section and did Doncasters Route instead. Had to go back next day and steel myself up for the unprotected layback, so I guess I didn't do GG 'onsight'.
Robert Durran - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Robert Durran) The Left is not soft, its a middle E1, the Right is top end HVS, I know which I would rather have soloed! Its almost immposible to fall off the Right.

I know which I would rather solo too! The Left may have a technically harder move, but, if you do it right, it's almost impossible to fall off. On the other hand, the right is far more insecure with smeary feet and rounded finish - definitely easier to fall off.
John Gillott - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> I know which I would rather solo too! The Left may have a technically harder move, but, if you do it right, it's almost impossible to fall off. On the other hand, the right is far more insecure with smeary feet and rounded finish - definitely easier to fall off.

The way you experience both may be influenced by how many times you have done both. I have done the Left loads of times and have it completely wired. However, for people who don't have it wired (and for me sometimes as well) there is a moment in the crux sequence when you are a little out of balance and it is possible to barn-door. This can be avoided to some degree by placing the feet differently, but then that makes the move a little stronger. In a similar way the layback on the Right can be made more secure, basically barely a layback move, and if I'd done it as many times as I've done the Left I'd probably have that move wired as well in this totally secure way.
John Gillott - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Chris Craggs)
>
> Thats the crux of the issue isnt it? The votes allow people without experience and skill to have the same impact as those that do. If A finds offwidths OK and crimpy climbs really hard (becuase of never 'pushing' on crimpy routes) and B vice versa how do you ever get any consenseus? The only way to grade is for adequate skill levels. To me that means the route should be lower HVS, even though for me it 'feels' like a VS (as I'm relatively strong in this area for my lead grade) and I'd rather lead it than many a HS. The votes say Tower Crack is just harder thn GG almost certainly becuase only experinced climbers with the right skill set climb Tower Crack; if only those same people voted for GG I'd give short odds it would come out as soft HVS.
>
> If people were more honest and voted taking into acount their skills it wouldn't matter but the evidence shows that they are not. It's not just lack of skill either: the comments are littered with stuff like 'that feels piss for the grade' when of course it does if suits your strengths.

Is 'adequate skill levels' fixed though? Tom Randall can lap Ray's Roof. Is he an outlier or has he just put the work in to develop his skills in this area to what 50s and 60s climbers might have considered an 'adequate' level?
Al Evans on 10 May 2013
In reply to John Gillott:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> Is 'adequate skill levels' fixed though? Tom Randall can lap Ray's Roof. Is he an outlier or has he just put the work in to develop his skills in this area to what 50s and 60s climbers might have considered an 'adequate' level?

Jesus Christ, can he really? This was the last great problem for me and many other climbers, including Fawcett, Bancroft, Proctor, I think Dawes and even earlier Street and I would imagine many other great climbers, the thought of somebody lapping it is remarkable.
johncoxmysteriously - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:

Is that so, Al? I didn't realise it was a well-known problem before Jardine did it.

jcm
Robert Durran - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to John Gillott)
> Jesus Christ, can he really? This was the last great problem for me and many other climbers, including Fawcett, Bancroft, Proctor, I think Dawes and even earlier Street and I would imagine many other great climbers, the thought of somebody lapping it is remarkable.

You're out of date. I hear it barely merits a "well done" these days.

Robert Durran - on 10 May 2013
In reply to John Gillott:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> I have done the Left loads of times and have it completely wired.

Havn't you done it blindfolded?

> However, for people who don't have it wired (and for me sometimes as well) there is a moment in the crux sequence when you are a little out of balance and it is possible to barn-door.

Possibly onsight soloing the Right might be more amenable, but once you have the Left wired (ie know how to avoid the barndoor) it is more secure climbing and therefore in my book a less worrying solo (not that I ever have, but I think I might...). Put it this way, if someone put a gun to my head and told me to solo one of them, i'd definitely go for the Left!
Robert Durran - on 10 May 2013
In reply to John Gillott:
> I have done the Left loads of times and have it completely wired.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=117753
Awesome!
metal arms on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> You're out of date. I hear it barely merits a "well done" these days.

<Applause>
John Gillott - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

No, but I know someone who has soloed The Grogan blindfolded, so familiar is he with it. I tried to do it but found the whole experience really weird and soon abandoned it.

I'm like you - never soloed it, but would probably prefer to solo it than the Right if I had to do one or the other. However, that small barn-door possibility and the fact you're high up does ever so slightly put me off. Certainly, I'd choose other E1s over that one given a choice.
Robert Durran - on 10 May 2013
In reply to John Gillott:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> I'd choose other E1s over that one given a choice.

I'm not sure I would. I'm struggling to think of a more secure one I've done and lots are really quite nasty! Oh dear, all this is making me think a long operdue trip south is in order...

Offwidth - on 10 May 2013
In reply to John Gillott:

No, if it was fixed the route would be VS still. Its drifting up the HVS band as average skill sets change but I'm saying those who can't even do a VS offwidth have no right to force their grade view on us because it feels impossible to them or they are forced to climb it by bridging (which is E1). It's less than 2m of cleft climbing above a flat landing. My mate fell off near the top of the lower groove when reaching in for jams from a bridging method and wasn't injured.
In reply to Robert Durran:
>
> I'm not sure I would. I'm struggling to think of a more secure one I've done and lots are really quite nasty! Oh dear, all this is making me think a long operdue trip south is in order...

I soloed the Right just once and the left never - too precarious/strenuous for my liking. Other E1 routes that I have soloed dozens+ of times (so presumably are easier) include Easter Rib, Millsom's Minion and Kirkus's Corner. Single solo E1s (so presumably harder) include Desperation, Dark Continent, Tipper and Count's Buttress.


Chris
Al Evans on 10 May 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
>
> Is that so, Al? I didn't realise it was a well-known problem before Jardine did it.
>
> jcm

Oh Yeh, we used to call it Baldstones Crack, I was first introduced to it by Jimmy Cambell an expert at those sort of things, and all the top guys were taken along and introduced to it until Jardine finally did it in 1977.
Ray gave it 5.11c as an American grade and I doubt that any climber in the UK was climbing 5.11c on thart type of a roof crack at the time.
I still suspect its current grade of only E7 6c would be considered 'soft' by any UK climber.
Al Evans on 10 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs: I agree with you Chris, and have soloed much the same repertoire but never the Left, much too precarious!
GridNorth - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs: I soloed, or at least attempted to solo, RH once and got stuck on the last move. My son made me shout, in an increasingly loud voice, that I wanted him to run round with a top rope. Very embarrassing on a crowded crag and not one of my better moments. As soon as I put the rope on I remembered the trick of getting over the top easily.
Rog Wilko on 10 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth: Reminds me of when I did the route, with two seconds. I jammed it, one second lay backed it while the other one performed an amazing smeary bridge all the way.
Jon Stewart - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> It's less than 2m of cleft climbing above a flat landing. My mate fell off near the top of the lower groove when reaching in for jams from a bridging method and wasn't injured.

The landing is most certainly not flat. I did exactly that and was on crutches for a while. Not that that makes it hard, I'd only been climbing about 5 times before that.
bill briggs1 - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Chris Craggs:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
>
> I soloed the Right just once and the left never -

> Chris

You like statistics Chris, soloed the left once and the right 200+ . Done the left so many times over the years and it always felt fine when leading, however I have never trusted the layaway hold that starts the crux section, you feel it flex as you move on it and I don't want to be soloing when it breaks. So only soloed it once before I noticed the movement. In fact over the years I have rarely seen the left soloed unless by an outstanding climber climbing well below their grade. As for the right , well it turned into an obsession , but thats another story.
Jonny2vests - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Al Evans)
> [...]
>
> You're out of date. I hear it barely merits a "well done" these days.

Excellent.
Offwidth - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

It's a small square rock platform. Did you miss it?
Jon Stewart - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> It's a small square rock platform. Did you miss it?

Dunno, think I hit it and bounced off. Either way I couldn't walk for a bit and had to physio the ligament back into working order. As far as routes with good landings go, that ain't one.
Dave Garnett - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> It's a small square rock platform. Did you miss it?

On that subject, despite your uncharacteristically hardline attitude to Baron's Wall, I don't recall that being an especially inviting drop zone!

I'm sure we've discussed this before but I recall finding BW sporting for HVS on the same day I led Smoke on't Watter (and I'd done it before).
Jon Stewart - on 10 May 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> I recall finding BW sporting for HVS on the same day I led Smoke on't Watter (and I'd done it before).

I guess if Smoke ont' Watter is E1, then Baron's Wall is VS. Of course, they're both a grade out.
Offwidth - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart: I said flat not good. You can get away with it unlike some landings.
Offwidth - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Dave Garnett:

For BW maybe its a bit of a reach thing and in that nothing like as bad as say Shortcomings at it's grade (E3 for me?). I had nothing like an HVS level of nervousness at pulling through the low 5b crux. In the same way that I accept GG is probably moving up the HVS garde as offwidth skills decline so i think boulder problem starts should be getting slightly easier (with all the practice people will be getting better). Boulder starts are wildly inconsistently graded some ignore technical moves in the first 4m, others grade them as a crux, I seek a middle way.

I made the rash decision to climb every route below E1 (old grades) at Curbar to try and get a good perspective on the relative difficulties (thanks again to Liam who helped me finish them off and who must have been damaged by the experience as he went from a best lead grade of E1 to E5 in the following period): lots more ended up getting upgraded than downgraded.

I was also checking way more scarier routes last weekend than BW at Crookrise, all currently at VS (hopefully moving to HVS/E1 soon).
Jon Stewart - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
> Boulder starts are wildly inconsistently graded

Very true

some ignore technical moves in the first 4m, others grade them as a crux, I seek a middle way.

The grades of BW and SOW are both "ignore the first 4m" grades. BW has a VC 4c crack to finish, SOW has an E1 5c crack to finish.

> I was also checking way more scarier routes last weekend than BW at Crookrise, all currently at VS (hopefully moving to HVS/E1 soon).

Well Yorkshire has a different grading system at VS, doesn't it? In Yorklshire a 5a route is generally VS unless it's particularly bold or very sustained, in which case it might get HVS. Or a bit of numberwang.
Simon Caldwell - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> In Yorklshire a 5a route is generally VS unless it's particularly bold

Here's one of the exceptions, not sure if it's really an HVS or an E1 (without side runner)
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28319

Not sure what Offwidth's other suggested upgrades are, but these are candidates:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28335
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28345
http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28302
Robert Durran - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> Boulder starts are wildly inconsistently graded some ignore technical moves in the first 4m, others grade them as a crux, I seek a middle way.

They cannot be ignored because they wil stop some from getting up the route. On the other hand they will not have as big effect on the grade as the same move above gear because you can fall off as many times as you like without blowing the onsight.
Jon Stewart - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> They cannot be ignored because they wil stop some from getting up the route. On the other hand they will not have as big effect on the grade as the same move above gear because you can fall off as many times as you like without blowing the onsight.

It's the boulder starts with awful landings that amuse me, like Ice Boat, Phlegethoa and Nightmare Slab at Stanage. If you fall off those and end up in hospital, do you blow the onsight?

Offwidth - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Toreador:

Some were there! ;-)

The top one I'd done before and I don't see how anyone who could think this is less than solid HVS at a minimum. Precarious 5a with a Desmond from what must be 6m and yet look at the votes. I'd say a quarter of a grade harder than 3PS at E1 5a and mid HVS 5a with a side-runner on the flake of Arsenic over on the left. The direct makes BW at VS look well overgraded ;-)
Robert Durran - on 11 May 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
>
> It's the boulder starts with awful landings that amuse me, like Ice Boat, Phlegethoa and Nightmare Slab at Stanage. If you fall off those and end up in hospital, do you blow the onsight?

No, you live (hopefully) to fight another day.

Goucho on 11 May 2013
In reply to pec: It was always VS in the past - I think it was my 5th or 6th VS lead in around 72', and I reckoned it was solid at the grade, rather than top end too.

Maybe the reason it's now given HVS, with some people considering it hard in the grade, is all down to indoor walls - they can't climb cracks - and, peoples lack of apprenticeship at the lower grades.

I must admit though, I find someone claiming 'the onsight' for this, and being congratulated for it by others, rather amusing :-)



Offwidth - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:

Another one! He's a UKC regular, he tries something that's around his limit, struggles and succeeds. What on earth is amusing with saying well done?
Goucho on 12 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth: The fact that he uses the term 'onsight'? Do people today really 'work' a route of this grade and vintage?
The New NickB - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to Offwidth) The fact that he uses the term 'onsight'? Do people today really 'work' a route of this grade and vintage?

Probably not, but I have lead plenty routes that I have previously seconded, I haven't onsighted them. I have also lead a few routes after falling off first attempt, I haven't unsighted them either.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Jon Stewart - on 12 May 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Goucho)
> [...]
>
> ...I haven't unsighted them either.

Wearing a blindfold while leading? Hardcore!

jimjimjim on 12 May 2013
In reply to Goucho: that was my thought. Hence my sarcasm early in the thread. I think people overuse all these climbing phrases. I just 'ave a go...
Goucho on 12 May 2013
In reply to jimjimjim: Agreed. It's all so earnest and serious these days - it's a hobby at the end of the day. And yes, it's still just a hobby even if you climb lead E6 :-)
Offwidth - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:

So what if it's just a hobby? Onsights even on a safe route like GG are harder than doing them with beta or having climbed the route before. Its a perfectly reasonable definition of what he did, and it was hard for him, so again well done.
Goucho on 12 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Goucho)
>
> So what if it's just a hobby? Onsights even on a safe route like GG are harder than doing them with beta or having climbed the route before.

You're kidding. Really?

Well you learn something new everyday!

Thanks for that bit of insight.

Al Evans on 12 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth: I actually think this stuff about beta is crap, who fu***** cares, it's a sport without rules for gods sake, or should be. All the rules are environmental and 'telling the truth ' ones. Ideally all ascents should be 'on sight' but a quick word with your mate does not constitute an inferior lead, or never used to when climbing was the best lack of rules sport in the world. Get real guys and stuff this 'onsight' crap at least on proper trad climbing.
Jon Stewart - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Offwidth) Get real guys and stuff this 'onsight' crap at least on proper trad climbing.

I agree. As a trad plodder, I've either 'done' a route, 'seconded' it or 'cocked it up'. I have of course never 'sent' anything other than a letter or a parcel.

But in defense of the OP, 'onsight' is commonly used just to mean 'done', such are the times we live in.
Goucho on 12 May 2013
In reply to Al Evans:

+1

When I look back at my old guidebooks and diaries, it just says either 'lead', 'seconded', or 'f*cked up'. :-)
Robert Durran - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> I agree. As a trad plodder, I've either 'done' a route, 'seconded' it or 'cocked it up'.
> But in defense of the OP, 'onsight' is commonly used just to mean 'done', such are the times we live in.

the trouble is that some people use "done" to cover all sorts of inferior ascents.....

GridNorth - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran: It could be argued that the ONLY person to do the true on-sight is the first ascensionist assuming he climbed it bottom up and in good style. Everyone else has the advantage of the guide book description and the knowledge that it has been climbed.
jimjimjim on 12 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
>
> the trouble is that some people use "done" to cover all sorts of inferior ascents.....

It doesn't trouble me, that's up to them. Why care?
Ciderslider - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: Crickey, I never thought that this one would run and run - interesting to read peoples different views on stuff (good job I suppose that we are all different).
I suppose at the moment I am mildly grade obsessed, but I think that will change as I move on (and to a degree has already).
I personally like to try to push myself and have goals, and for me that's all part of the fun. It's also great to get up stuff that you didn't think possible (and dream about the next and hopefully harder route).
Whatever grade GG is (or ever becomes) I totally enjoyed the whole experience from the moment I stepped off the ground, at times it was a real struggle and I felt that it was gonna spit me out, but in the end I got it and was chuffed with myself.
It was at/near the top of my game, and who knows in years to come I might go back and breeze it and find it a path.
The bottom line is though I had a fantastic couple of days in the peak district, did some hard and easy routes, got a bit scared, enjoyed fantastic company and a few beers to boot. Isn't that what it's all about.
Already planning my next trip up, and can't wait !
paul mitchell - on 12 May 2013
In reply to Ciderslider: As for Kelly's Overhang,I always find Quietus easier.
You might like to try the roof just right,Smelly Roof.

Mitch
Robert Durran - on 12 May 2013
In reply to jimjimjim:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)

> It doesn't trouble me, that's up to them. Why care?

I don't really care. Just commenting.
jimjimjim on 12 May 2013
In reply to Robert Durran:

>
> I don't really care. Just commenting.

Me too. Alright, what 'trouble' does in cause?


Jonny2vests - on 13 May 2013
In reply to jimjimjim:
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> [...]
>
> It doesn't trouble me, that's up to them. Why care?

But it clearly troubles you and Al Evans and Goucho that the youfs overuse all these climbing phrases. Can't say that troubles me.
Jonny2vests - on 13 May 2013
In reply to Goucho:
> (In reply to Offwidth) The fact that he uses the term 'onsight'? Do people today really 'work' a route of this grade and vintage?

You know very well that using onsight doesn't imply that people routinely 'work' the route. You also know it's just shorthand for 'I did it first go without cheating'.

Just because its gained prominence in recent years (not that recent actually), whats so wrong with it? It would be a lot easier to respect you old warriors if you didn't come out with so much bollocks all the time ;-)
Offwidth - on 13 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:

I know people who routinely second routes they are nervous of leading to suss them out. I climbed with someone who would wobble up things on lead then often get straight back on and solo it beutifully. People ask for key beta, they watch other folk, and that's before any pre-practice, dogging or pulling on gear. To claim that onsighting isn't a better albeit harder style is bonkers. However, all most of us weekend warrior types really mean is '1st go without cheating' but the one word works better than a phrase or a paragraph. It certainly doesnt imply a heroic victory (although occasionally it can be that as well). I'm still rather perplexed with the response it elicits from some.
victim of mathematics - on 13 May 2013
In reply to Jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Goucho)
> [...]
>
> You know very well that using onsight doesn't imply that people routinely 'work' the route. You also know it's just shorthand for 'I did it first go without cheating'.
>
> Just because its gained prominence in recent years (not that recent actually), whats so wrong with it? It would be a lot easier to respect you old warriors if you didn't come out with so much bollocks all the time ;-)

^ This

Stop being such a po-faced bunch of old duffers.

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