/ NEWS: Thieves Target Cars on Dartmoor

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UKC News - on 20 May 2013
Early morning on Haytor, Dartmoor, 3 kbDevon and Cornwall Police have issued a warning that thieves targeting cars are in operation around the Haytor area of Dartmoor. Several cars have been broken into and had valuables stolen.

Ashburton PCSO, Ben Cattrall, sent out a warning that cars parked in the various secluded parking areas...

Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=68065
The Pylon King on 20 May 2013
In reply to UKC News:

We should set up a trap.
sebrider - on 20 May 2013
We had problems in the past at the Deverstone. Thieves trew a stone to smash the offside window and stole a few things. My mate's wallet was in the driver's door pocket at the time, luck would have it that the rock landed on top of it, so they missed that! Police at the time said it was most likely to be drug addicts paying for thier habits.
The Pylon King on 20 May 2013
In reply to sebrider:

Kill'em - a shallow grave on the middle of the moor
Bert - on 20 May 2013
In reply to The Pylon King: Have to agree, not that I wish it happens to anyone but hopefully they will be caught by group of climbers who give them what they deserve (perhaps using a seagull killer hex) rather than a pathetic slap on the wrist from the law.

Over the years I have read about this happening up and down the country. It really would serve them right and perhaps they would think twice next time
dr_botnik - on 20 May 2013
In reply to UKC News: An understated reaction from the UKC massive then. Gosh, its like reading the dailymail...
The Pylon King on 20 May 2013
In reply to dr_botnik:
> (In reply to UKC News) An understated reaction from the UKC massive then. Gosh, its like reading the dailymail...

er... what, do you want to give them a hug and say well done?
Nick Russell on 20 May 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:
> (In reply to dr_botnik)
> [...]
>
> er... what, do you want to give them a hug and say well done?

Perhaps the point being made here is that this is supposed to be a forum for climbing discussion, rather than radical (though I expect not entirely sincerely meant) political views.

I don't know what that implies about where this thread should go. Maybe advice on more out-of-the-way parking areas where you're less likely to get targeted? Generic statements of "don't leave your wallet on display" to make your car less of a target.
Rockmonkey1977 on 20 May 2013
In reply to Nick Russell: I think the generic advice is to leave your car where there is as much coming and going as possible rather than more secluded spots. Unfortunately nowadays thieves will go on 'fishing trips' where they will break into a car even if there isn't anything on display as they know that people leave satnavs etc stashed under seats, in glove compartments etc (especially if they see the giveaway ring marks on the windscreen). The more people that are about the less chance they'll risk going for it...
Bert - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Nick Russell: I'm inclined to agree and disagree.

On one hand, advice about where to park could be welcome, however having climbed in these areas one place will be as much at risk as the next.

Yes, this also serves as a good reminder on not leaving valuables in sight.

However this is a climbing forum and people climb for pleasure. They/I do not want to leave my car parked and have to worry about it. These people are ruining peoples leisure time to which we are all entitled, with blatant disregard. If caught, these light fingered persons should at the very least have their pilfering hands broken as punishment as well as a deterant for future pilferers.

If you can't do the time......
Rigid Raider - on 20 May 2013
In reply to UKC News:

A saw a thief smash a car window and run off with a briefcase in the middle of the busy A56 just outside manchester - it happened so fast and he was gone so quickly that nobody had a chance to react.
gethin_allen on 20 May 2013
In reply to Rockmonkey1977:
"satnavs etc stashed under seats, in glove compartments etc (especially if they see the giveaway ring marks on the windscreen"
I didn't think anyone bothered to steal satnavs or stereos any more, it's all about expensive smartphones, laptops and I pads.

Either that or my area is better than I give it credit for as people leave their satnavs on the windscreen and I haven't heard of anyone having anything stolen in the 2 years I've been there.
Tom Last - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Bert:
> hopefully they will be caught by group of climbers who give them what they deserve (perhaps using a seagull killer hex) rather than a pathetic slap on the wrist from the law.
>

Seems unlikely, how many double'ard crime fighting climbers do you know? More likely they'll ask them to fill in a survey as to the root causes of their crime wave while trying to look menacing in their colourful sports casuals and floppy hair, or have a rant about Suspension Flake being crap after all, or something.
Bert - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Southern Man: Ha ha its a point. Right here starts the search for 'ard climbers to deal with the problem
Tom Last - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Bert:
> (In reply to Southern Man) Ha ha its a point. Right here starts the search for 'ard climbers to deal with the problem

Where's Norrie Muir when we need him!
jkarran - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Bert:

> However this is a climbing forum and people climb for pleasure. They/I do not want to leave my car parked and have to worry about it. These people are ruining peoples leisure time to which we are all entitled, with blatant disregard. If caught, these light fingered persons should at the very least have their pilfering hands broken as punishment as well as a deterant for future pilferers.

Charming. I hope this is just your internet hard-man act and you're not this unpleasant in real life.

jk
The Pylon King on 20 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Bert)
>
> [...]
>
> Charming. I hope this is just your internet hard-man act and you're not this unpleasant in real life.
>
> jk

What is unpleasant about that?
LaMentalist on 20 May 2013
In reply to UKC News:

There were six cars broken into at a disused local quarry car park ( Ham Hill ) a few weeks ago , all I saw were six pools of glass at two metre intervals . I got there a few hours after the incidents . I went down into the quarry for a climb and when I returned the were Anti theft packs left by the Country Park Rangers .

The packs comprised of info leaflets , Stop No Valuable Inside Stickers & a large notice to put on dash / wherever stating the same .

I usually park up wander off to a nice well covered vantage point and watch for a while , they'll screw up soon they always do .

In the past I've left the doors unlocked plus windows down in notorious areas (outside Holcombe Quarry ) , St Pauls & Easton/Eastville Bristol and the car/s have been left alone ( not for one minute suggest anyone else does this though ).

I caught two thieves redhanded trying to get the alloy wheels off a car of mine ( They nicked the locking nut key from car two nights before ) , so I guessed they'd be back . I notified the police before hand but they weren't interested really but they did warn me not to take matters into my own hands .

I had one of the scrotes in my grip while his greasy mate watched from behind a tree , I didn't have the heart to batter him that night , he was in tears within twenty seconds the pussy . He did get a visit couple of weeks later though .

I maybe down in Devon mid June and I would be up for some surveillance , could even use my car as bait maybe .

And thanks for the warning too .
jkarran - on 20 May 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:

> Are you a thief lover then?

Because I think breaking the bones in another person's hands is a disproportionate and barbaric punishment I must approve of the crime and or the criminal? Yeah, it's so obvious when you look at it like that.

Don't be daft.
The Pylon King on 20 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:

Well, as you see i removed my post before you replied as i realised it was daft but i think the punishment isn't harse.

I presume if you think that breaking bones is barbaric then you don't eat meat?
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jkarran - on 20 May 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:

> Well, as you see i removed my post before you replied as i realised it was daft but i think the punishment isn't harse.

Harsh? You don't think punitively snapping the bones in someone's hands is harsh?

F*** sake! I despair.

> I presume if you think that breaking bones is barbaric then you don't eat meat?

Last time I checked animals slaughtered in the uk for the table weren't crushed to death. Yes, I do eat meat and I think there's a pretty obvious distinction between slaughter for food and corporal punishment!

jk
LaMentalist on 20 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:

Can I ask what would be your prefered punishment ( if any ) ? Not saying I disagree or agree with anything stated in above posts but it is genuinely interesting to get a rational perspective .

SurferStan - on 20 May 2013
If they're nicking climbing gear - take them to a crag, lower them off to half way - tell them to hold on tight and then leave them - they might start to realise just how important climbing gear is to climbers - and just to appease the 'huggers' out their - phone the police so they can come and rescue them - no harm done - but a valuable lesson taught!
jkarran - on 20 May 2013
In reply to LaMentalist:

The present system with gaol as the ultimate sanction seems fairly reasonable and measured. Exactly how to use that system to best effect... I don't know and I'm not sure anyone else really does either, we don't really go in for evidence based justice.

jk
LaMentalist on 20 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to LaMentalist)
>
> The present system with gaol as the ultimate sanction seems fairly reasonable and measured. Exactly how to use that system to best effect... I don't know and I'm not sure anyone else really does either, we don't really go in for evidence based justice.
>
> jk

Okay a good reply but allow me to put it another way JK , If you caught someone breaking into your car and stealing your climbing rack what would you do ? And or what would you like to do or see happen to them ?

Leon

BnB - on 20 May 2013
In reply to SurferStan:
> If they're nicking climbing gear - take them to a crag, lower them off to half way - tell them to hold on tight and then leave them - they might start to realise just how important climbing gear is to climbers - and just to appease the 'huggers' out their - phone the police so they can come and rescue them - no harm done - but a valuable lesson taught!

I would probably err on the side of traditional methods including the right to a fair trial and imprisonment for the guilty. But I do think your suggestion rather neatly chimes with modern methods of helping criminals develop empathy with their victims.
Nick Russell on 20 May 2013
In reply to LaMentalist:
> (In reply to jkarran)
> [...]
>
> If you caught someone breaking into your car and stealing your climbing rack what would you... like to do or see happen to them ?

I hate to get involved in this sort of debate, but having posted higher up I suppose I already am. I think your question (above) highlights the importance of having a criminal justice system that allows punishments to be dealt by a less emotionally-involved, (in principle) more objective third party, rather than the victim of the crime.
Kemics - on 20 May 2013

I'd be extremely surprised if anyone got jail time for breaking into a car.

If you've ever watched a police chase show, my favourite bit is where they share the drivers penalty. Normally after stealing a car and running amok round town "the dastardly driver was given a 6 month ban and a £30 fine". Cracks me up every time :)

The problem is most of thieves come from a really troubled up bringing. At the same time, having been the victim of theft it's a really horrible thing to have to deal with. At the time, I personally wouldn't have had a problem with someone's hand being broken. But if you want to sit down and wax philosophical, it's probably not the way to go...maybe a finger? :)
jkarran - on 20 May 2013
In reply to LaMentalist:

> Okay a good reply but allow me to put it another way JK , If you caught someone breaking into your car and stealing your climbing rack what would you do ?

Call the police and attempt to stop them, probably verbally, possibly physically if I felt safe to. Who knows, it hasn't happened. I'd also be angry and frustrated.

> And or what would you like to do or see happen to them ?

I hope: Once calmed down I'd like to speak to the offender and I'd like to see something constructive come of the event. I'd be content to leave the punishment (if deemed appropriate) to a professional detached from the situation. I'd like if possible to be adequately compensated for my losses.

In reality, I don't know exactly how I'd feel but I'm pretty sure the loss of my satnav or climbing gear and a broken window wouldn't turn me into a blood thirsty torturer.

jk
LaMentalist on 20 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:

Okay fair enough another sensible answer ( have you considered politics ;0) ) , and the sensible part of me would be inclined to agree but
after having a house burgled , 3 cars broken into and a few other similar incidents I must confess I am more of a nemesis now sort of man .

The justice & law systems have failed me more than once , they have their priorities & I have mine after all .

Cheers Leon .
The Pylon King on 20 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:

> In reality, I don't know exactly how I'd feel but I'm pretty sure the loss of my satnav or climbing gear and a broken window wouldn't turn me into a blood thirsty torturer.

but you still eat meat.

knthrak1982 on 20 May 2013
In reply to LaMentalist:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
>
> I had one of the scrotes in my grip while his greasy mate watched from behind a tree , I didn't have the heart to batter him that night , he was in tears within twenty seconds the pussy . He did get a visit couple of weeks later though.

Not sure if I'd be capable of doing that, but if my car had been parked with yours, you'd certainly have got a pint or two from me.

Instead of battering, perhaps I'd learn how to do tattoos, and write the word "thief" on their forehead. That wouldn't be brutal because I have very neat handwriting and will spell it correctly.
jkarran - on 20 May 2013
In reply to The Pylon King:

> but you still eat meat.

That's what I said an hour ago.
jk
LaMentalist on 20 May 2013
In reply to knthrak1982:

The tattoo thing crossed my mind , I was thinking along the lines of catch them once then tattoo TH , then 2nd time IE third time F but probably wouldn't work .

The reason Mr Catton & Mr McCain the thieving junky scumbags had a visit was that I heard through the grapevine that I was this and that I was lucky i didn't get a hiding . That was enough to tip me over the edge , they also burgled an old persons bungalow around this time as well . It could of been two of many blokes in balaclavas who caused Gary to soil himself that night . If you keep playing with fire you will eventually get burned .

MikedeP - on 20 May 2013
In reply to UKC News:

One winter, back in the late '50's, when the Scots invaded Snowdonia, word went round the bars of Llanberis and Bethesda the tents of the Creagh Ddu had been raided and the pilferer caught.
He had the misfortune to be trapped by some of the club members who, so the story goes, promptly pegged him out on the ground before donning crampons and walking over him.

The message was simple "You don't **** with the Creagh Ddu.
off-duty - on 20 May 2013
In reply to LaMentalist:
> (In reply to knthrak1982)
>
> The tattoo thing crossed my mind , I was thinking along the lines of catch them once then tattoo TH , then 2nd time IE third time F but probably wouldn't work .
>
> The reason Mr Catton & Mr McCain the thieving junky scumbags had a visit was that I heard through the grapevine that I was this and that I was lucky i didn't get a hiding . That was enough to tip me over the edge , they also burgled an old persons bungalow around this time as well . It could of been two of many blokes in balaclavas who caused Gary to soil himself that night . If you keep playing with fire you will eventually get burned .

Probably a point worth equally bearing in mind for the vigilantes out there.

SurferStan - on 20 May 2013
Technically it fits in with the traditional method as well - you'd just be keeping hold of them until the police arrived - kind of like a citizens arrest :)
dutybooty - on 20 May 2013
In reply to UKC News: I'd quite happily smack someone with whatever happened to be in my possession at the time, whether that be a large hex/cam, my keys used as a knuckle duster, or if walking back from a DT/winter crag, my ice axe.

I'd have no qualms about this, actually going after a burgler with an ice axe once (I was sharpening my axes, he walked through the kitchen door).

Once caught, I'd restrain/subdue him. Not being the biggest person, I find this entirely reasonable (and so, from experience, do the police!)

But with how we all work hard for our things, I believe we have the right to feel safe and our possessions safe, and use force to protect it when scrotes try to take it.

I think the American system of "if you come across a burgler, you are entitled to take whatever measures you deem are necessary to remove the threat"

One things the Americans have got right.
Bert - on 20 May 2013
In reply to jkarran: In reply to hoping I'm not like that, in general I'm not, but I am trying to keep my opinion of these persons and what should be done as polite but as honest as possible. The message after this states 6 cars being broken into, thats either 6 repairs or insurance excesses owners have to pay out because of lazy thieves who cannot be bothered to get a job and work for a living. That really isn't very fair is. Its hard enough for average working folk to make ends meet as it is.
This type of behaviour is completely unecessary and makes me furious. I really do hope they get whats coming to them.
Bert - on 20 May 2013
In reply to Bert: I would much prefer to let the police deal with it, but having recently found myself trying to work within law to deal with threatening behaviour, it took 18 months of tax payers money for the person involved to be given an £80 fine. Lets also face it, the law does very little by way of protecting folk these days. Which is why it is no deterent for these individuals
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Alex Parker - on 20 May 2013
JK, here's hoping they break into your car instead of mine.

People like you make me sick and explain why these people think they can go around stealing other peoples belongings.

If you do not like other peoples harsh views, mind your own f**king business and keep your soft, pathetic opinions to yourself.

I had about £300 quids worth of kit nicked from my car last summer, including a brand new rope i hadn't even used yet! Not a single thing on show, but it doesn't take a minute to throw a stone through the window and have a quick look does it?
Alex Parker - on 20 May 2013
As someone who has experienced both petty and one case of very serious (4 years prison time) crime you need to understand that the punishments dished out are rarely in proportion to the crime.

If they were, people wouldn't have such strong views on things like this, they would just say 'let the authorities deal with it'.

I cannot tell you how utterly sick i felt when i went through the correct channels and through a crown court hearing to end up wishing i had just dealt with the issue myself.
Alex Parker - on 20 May 2013
By the time you had got your phone out to even call the police, they would be gone.

The punishment needs to be the deterrent. Clearly you have never had the unpleasant experience of being left feeling utterly let down by our 'justice' system.

As said in a previous post, if the deterrent was suitable we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Andrew Barker - on 20 May 2013
In reply to papabear:
>
> People like you make me sick and explain why these people think they can go around stealing other peoples belongings.

Since when did UKC forums and the Daily Mail website become one and the same?! I may not have personal experience of things that have happened to you and I'm sure that if I did my opinions would harden to some extent but seriously, that is the most gross oversimplification I have ever heard.

>
> If you do not like other peoples harsh views, mind your own f**king business and keep your soft, pathetic opinions to yourself.

What was the point of this bit? This is not part of a rational discussion about the situation which I'd hoped to find when I looked at this thread.


I'm much more interested in what you think a suitable "deterrent" would be.
Alex Parker - on 20 May 2013
I couldn't care less what kind of a debate you were hoping to find. I also couldn't care less about how much of an oversimplification you find my reaction to be.

Change has to start somewhere and i agree with the person who said the culprits should have their hands broken. I wouldn't feel sorry if i read in The Daily Mail that someone caught stealing from another persons car had this as their punishment.

Would you really be that offended by it?
Andrew Barker - on 20 May 2013
In reply to papabear:

You are an angry young man. And yes I would be offended if someone had their hands broken as a punishment for theft. Does that offend you?! I really hope not because I'm not quite as angry as you seem to be.
Alex Parker - on 20 May 2013
No, it doesn't offend me, you should be okay. And, whilst I would not call myself an 'angry young man', certain things do make me very angry indeed.

Self righteousness so and so's who react with such horror when they find people who actually want crime to be punished probably also fall into that category. Sorry about that.

Wouldn't it be great if crime only happened to those who find themselves above the angry young men in this world? Then i would get back to my car and find it had not been broken into and you would not have the same luck.

Obviously i would rather neither of us had that unpleasant experience, just saying you would obviously deal with it so much better then me.
cuppatea on 20 May 2013
In reply to UKC News:

This thread was started in the UKC News forum and hasn't now not been moved.
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for both users and moderators.

The Pub - A forum for heated debate, idle gossip, putting the world to rights, swearing and shouty things. It is less-strictly moderated than the other forums and you may encounter some forthright views and approximations of the English language.

More Forum descriptions - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/forums.html
Alex Parker - on 20 May 2013
Anyway, got to go. My mum's just called me downstairs to go for my anger management counselling. The bitch.
snook - on 20 May 2013
In reply to UKC News: If only Chuck Norris climbed.
jkarran - on 21 May 2013
In reply to papabear:

> JK, here's hoping they break into your car instead of mine.

I guess that's one of those things pretty much everyone thinks but most will refrain from actually saying.

> People like you make me sick and explain why these people think they can go around stealing other peoples belongings.

It's quite a leap from being disgusted by my views on corporal punishment to blaming me for theft in general. I'm really not sure how to respond to reasoning quite so devoid of reason.

> If you do not like other peoples harsh views, mind your own f**king business and keep your soft, pathetic opinions to yourself.

Out of curiosity, did you pause to consider your own advice before clicking submit? I'm glad you didn't by the way it's been fascinating, revolting and hilarious in roughly equal measure.

> I had about £300 quids worth of kit nicked from my car last summer, including a brand new rope i hadn't even used yet! Not a single thing on show, but it doesn't take a minute to throw a stone through the window and have a quick look does it?

No, unfortunately it doesn't.

> As someone who has experienced both petty and one case of very serious (4 years prison time) crime you need to understand that the punishments dished out are rarely in proportion to the crime.

That is a value judgement, we can both make that statement while holding different opinions and both be 'right'.

> If they were, people wouldn't have such strong views on things like this, they would just say 'let the authorities deal with it'.

Nonsense. There are as many different views as there are people, some strong some mild. Yours appear to be fairly extreme and it appears you think much the same of mine. Naturally there will be times when we both disapprove of the actions of the criminal justice system, possibly for different reasons, possibly for the same ones but frankly, that's why it exists.

> I cannot tell you how utterly sick i felt when i went through the correct channels and through a crown court hearing to end up wishing i had just dealt with the issue myself.

I'm sorry to hear that.

> By the time you had got your phone out to even call the police, they would be gone.

No, really! I presume you read on...

> The punishment needs to be the deterrent. Clearly you have never had the unpleasant experience of being left feeling utterly let down by our 'justice' system.

That is a matter of opinion. And no, I don't feel let down by our justice system, I'm generally (and with occasional reservations) quite proud of it.

> As said in a previous post, if the deterrent was suitable we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Are you so sure? Take Saudi Arabia, there's plenty of car crime there I've seen it with my own eyes and I can't think of a harsher regime off the top of my head. Take another example, a man my partner met in a Ugandan hospital, he'd be burned alive by a mob for stealing. Twice. Brutality isn't perhaps as effective a deterrent as you might like to imagine and importantly it degrades the society that condones it.

Perhaps you'd consider keeping your response civil if you decide to reply.
jk
Flatus Vetus - on 21 May 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Can't believe how many professional victims there are on this forum! If somebody wants to mess with me or mine I will put a powerfull hurting on them, not because I think it will deter them in future but because it helps with the mental anguish of being violated by some pondlife untermensch. I couldn't give a rat's ass what the law says and anyway the law exists to protect commerce not the individual. If you mess with someone you are entering into a dangerous contract, a contract whose terms are dictated by the victim.
How I wish I could have lived in the Wild west...
stroppygob - on 21 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to Bert)
>
> [...]
>
> Charming. I hope this is just your internet hard-man act and you're not this unpleasant in real life.

Damn straight! These poor guys need help, they have issues, possibly social issue and mental health issues, or drug dependency problems. It's societies fault that they act in this way, as we have deprived them of self worth, self esteem, and self actualisation opportunities. We should give them mentoring and counseling, provide more benefits so they do not need to steal. Free smack on the NHS should be available, also improving their living conditions by giving them better free housing..

off-duty - on 21 May 2013
In reply to Flatus Vetus:
> (In reply to UKC News)
>
> How I wish I could have lived in the Wild west...

Are you sure you would be the biggest, the baddest and the fastest draw?
ThunderCat - on 21 May 2013
In reply to papabear:
> I couldn't care less what kind of a debate you were hoping to find. I also couldn't care less about how much of an oversimplification you find my reaction to be.
>
> Change has to start somewhere and i agree with the person who said the culprits should have their hands broken. I wouldn't feel sorry if i read in The Daily Mail that someone caught stealing from another persons car had this as their punishment.
>
> Would you really be that offended by it?

"NAIL THEM UP" I say..."NAIL SOME SENSE INTO THEM!"

PaulTanton - on 21 May 2013
Could keep a Pit Bull in the van at all times. Be a bit fruity in the mornings but the smell would soon clear. Never get a problem.
LaMentalist on 21 May 2013
In reply to ThunderCat:
> (In reply to papabear)
> [...]
>
> "NAIL THEM UP" I say..."NAIL SOME SENSE INTO THEM!"

TIP

Don't forget to use a couple of decent washers with the 6" galv nails ( it helps to stop driving them all the way through ) , and if using a nailgun ( I like the Hilti DX 450 for its power & simplicity ) to max out the settings its generally less messy that way .

ThunderCat - on 21 May 2013
In reply to LaMentalist:
> (In reply to ThunderCat)
> [...]
>
> TIP
>
> Don't forget to use a couple of decent washers with the 6" galv nails ( it helps to stop driving them all the way through ) , and if using a nailgun ( I like the Hilti DX 450 for its power & simplicity ) to max out the settings its generally less messy that way .

Justice, with practical tips. Love it.!!!

Neil Watson - on 21 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
> (In reply to jkarran)
> [...]
>
> Damn straight! These poor guys need help, they have issues, possibly social issue and mental health issues, or drug dependency problems. It's societies fault that they act in this way, as we have deprived them of self worth, self esteem, and self actualisation opportunities. We should give them mentoring and counseling, provide more benefits so they do not need to steal. Free smack on the NHS should be available, also improving their living conditions by giving them better free housing..

totally agree with you SG. Maybe take them on outward bound courses .... they could supply their own climbing gear I suppose. Do I hear the voices of any volunteers?
MJ - on 21 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:

Damn straight! These poor guys need help, they have issues, possibly social issue and mental health issues, or drug dependency problems. It's societies fault that they act in this way, as we have deprived them of self worth, self esteem, and self actualisation opportunities. We should give them mentoring and counseling, provide more benefits so they do not need to steal. Free smack on the NHS should be available, also improving their living conditions by giving them better free housing..

Surely, a chat over a nice cup of tea and a biscuit should be more than sufficient in most cases?
Might have to resort to some cake in more extreme cases though.

jkarran - on 21 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:

> Damn straight! These poor guys need help, they have issues, possibly social issue and mental health issues, or drug dependency problems. It's societies fault that they act in this way, as we have deprived them of self worth, self esteem, and self actualisation opportunities. We should give them mentoring and counseling, provide more benefits so they do not need to steal. Free smack on the NHS should be available, also improving their living conditions by giving them better free housing..

Am I saying that? Or am I actually saying that the violent revenge fantasies people post up on here are disproportionate, degrading and unlikely to be as effective as they might think.

For what it's worth I do think more resources should be dedicated to resolving the problems that lead people back to crime time and again but I'm not naive enough to think everyone can be 'fixed' with a hug and some English lessons. Make of that what you will.

I'm shocked at the degree of venom I seem to be attracting here for expressing what is a frankly rather mainstream view that torture is no longer acceptable in our society and that is an overwhelmingly good thing for all in that society.

jk
stroppygob - on 21 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to stroppygob)

> I'm shocked at the degree of venom I seem to be attracting here for expressing what is a frankly rather mainstream view that torture is no longer acceptable in our society and that is an overwhelmingly good thing for all in that society.

There there dear, you keep being nice to the nasty criminals and I'm sure everyone else will come around to your way of thinking sometime.

If they don't, then try pandering to the nasties a bit more, with added sulk at the horrible people who do not like being robbed.

knthrak1982 on 21 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:

The way I see it, if I saw someone breaking into cars on Dartmoor, assuming he didn't see me, I would call the police and then be faced with two choices.
1. Keep a safe distance and hope the police arrived before his work is done. Police response time on Dartmoor??
2. Attempt to detain him. Now I'm not a big man, and by Queensberry rules I don't fancy my chances against any junky, ned or scally. I would need to take him by surprise, get him on the ground, and crucially (for my safety) make sure he stays down and ceases to be a threat. Depending on the circumstances, breaking an arm could seem logical.

FWIW, I don't mean to show you any venom, and my comment about tattoos was intended in jest. I was serious about buying a drink for someone who stood up to such scumbags however.
jkarran - on 21 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:

Delightful as ever stroppygob.

> There there dear, you keep being nice to the nasty criminals and I'm sure everyone else will come around to your way of thinking sometime.

You do seem to keep missing my point, I hope for your sake deliberately since it's a pretty simple idea. I'll try again: I don't have to wait for the UK criminal justice system to come in line with my thoughts, it largely is.

> If they don't, then try pandering to the nasties a bit more, with added sulk at the horrible people who do not like being robbed.

What?

jk
lummox - on 21 May 2013
In reply to jkarran: You've got to love the hard of thinking wannabe cowboys who always pop up on these threads. Great entertainment : )
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 21 May 2013
In reply to knthrak1982: You would be better off shouting at them from a distance that you have called the police, then leave it.

It's all very well being a vigilante hard man if you're an ex marine/army type who is used to being in proper scraps...but as Tyson famously said in reply to the question that Boxer X had a plan to beat him

"Everyone's got a plan. Until I hit 'em"

Personally I have zero interest in getting involved with vermin unless they were attacking me or my family. The risk of getting stabbed with a knife/needle etc is just not worth it. This attitude might fuel their bravado, but fck em. Their lives are shitter than mine and always will be.

In my house though, all bets off.I would be shaking like a shitting dog but hopefully it wouldn't spoil my Tony Martin impression.
The Pylon King on 21 May 2013
In reply to UKC News:

Surely the answer is the deterrent?

A booby trap car.

Load a car up with explosives that will detonate if the glass is broken.

Only needs to be done once, as i'm sure even the thickest of thieves (see what i did there?) will not risk Russian Roulette with subsequent cars.

Just an idea.
unclesamsauntibess - on 21 May 2013
In reply to The Pylon King: The answer is really simple. Don't leave anything in the car, ever. Leave it unlocked. Leave a £20 note in the glovebox. That way, nothing gets broken or stolen and they feel happy they got £20 for nothing........simples.

It satisfies their greedy ways and doesn't trouble their moral conscience. All happy.
The Pylon King on 21 May 2013
In reply to unclesamsauntibess:

you want me to give away £20?

My car isn't worth £20

You must be well off!
James Oswald - on 21 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:
"I'm shocked at the degree of venom I seem to be attracting here for expressing what is a frankly rather mainstream view that torture is no longer acceptable in our society and that is an overwhelmingly good thing for all in that society."

Some of the views expressed on this thread are a little shocking really. It's good there are some people who don't believe in barbarism.
Offwidth - on 21 May 2013
In reply to James Oswald:

Spotty 13 year olds, bar room UKIP voting ranters and armchair hero fantasists in the main. Most real people are still not swivel eyed loons and respect the rule of law (ie car theft, bad as it is, isnt as bad as vigilante based A/GBH).
unclesamsauntibess - on 21 May 2013
In reply to The Pylon King: A new door lock or piece of glass is necessary for any MOT so the deal is quite good if you manage to think your way round the bleeding obvious.
stroppygob - on 21 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to James Oswald)
>
> Spotty 13 year olds, bar room UKIP voting ranters and armchair hero fantasists in the main. Most real people are still not swivel eyed loons and respect the rule of law (ie car theft, bad as it is, isnt as bad as vigilante based A/GBH).

Weak kneed lefties who think that their fey petulance will bring an end to all problems, if only the nasty men who have this savage wish to protect themselves and their property would just realise that giving in to the criminals is a far nicer and safer way to live.

stroppygob - on 22 May 2013
Just for the tape;

First example of "playing the man, not the ball", came, once again from the left.


> (In reply to UKC News) An understated reaction from the UKC massive then. Gosh, its like reading the dailymail...

Is using the "Daily Mail" insult the new version of Godwin's law?
TheDrunkenBakers - on 22 May 2013
In reply to snook:
> (In reply to UKC News) If only Chuck Norris climbed.

He does, with one hand and swears never, ever, to wear those nancy boy rubber plimsoles. He doesnt need chalk, his hand are like granite already and practically fuses to each hold, more or less.
knthrak1982 on 22 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:
>
> Is using the "Daily Mail" insult the new version of Godwin's law?

No, it's an objective argument. Remember that story of a judge praising the burglar's courage before letting him off the hook? Well that never actually happened. I know it didn't because the daily mail said it did.

Every time someone uses the words "you just got that from the Daily Mail", I know their opponent's argument has just been blown out of the water. They're the only newspaper with any kind of political agenda or polarised opinion you know.
jkarran - on 22 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:

> Just for the tape;
> First example of "playing the man, not the ball", came, once again from the left.

Nice soundbite. For the sake of clarity, what does it actually mean, that I questioned the character of a poster not his statement? That's true but I did so solely on the basis of that statement. Hardly attacking someone personally to discredit their idea, more suggesting the idea reflects poorly on them and may not be a true reflection of their character.

And what's with referring to me as 'the left'? My name is James and I don't really see what your presumptions about my political/economic leanings have to do with anything. Do I refer to you as 'the right'? No, because that's a nonsense. Perhaps you have authoritarian leanings but all I'm clearly getting from your posts is 'angry hardman'. A true reflection of your character? Hopefully not.

jk
cuppatea on 22 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:

I'm guessing playing the player not the ball is referring to this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

“I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.”
― Margaret Thatcher

Back on topic, car crime on Dartmoor is hardly news is it?

There's been a bloke trying to run drivers off the road 9and then plunder them?) for a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hairy_hands
stroppygob - on 22 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to stroppygob)
>
> [...]
>
> Nice soundbite. For the sake of clarity, what does it actually mean, that I questioned the character of a poster not his statement? That's true but I did so solely on the basis of that statement. Hardly attacking someone personally to discredit their idea, more suggesting the idea reflects poorly on them and may not be a true reflection of their character.


Why did you feel the need to attack the poster? If his views are not yours, that's up to live with. I like many others state my thoughts bluntly. If we believe that should we catch some scoundrel breaking into our cars we would dish out some instant karma, then why not allow us those inclinations? If you would let them run off with your kit, your wallet and your car, while awaiting police intervention that’s up to you. As far as I can see in this thread, people have expressed views on how they would deal with that circumstance, but only those with self asserting views have been attacked for it.

Why do those of a left wing persuasion, who seem to hold their “PC” views with a religious fervour, feel they have to use teh very tactics they pretent to dislike against anyone with right of centre views.

> And what's with referring to me as 'the left'? My name is James and I don't really see what your presumptions about my political/economic leanings have to do with anything. Do I refer to you as 'the right'? No, because that's a nonsense. Perhaps you have authoritarian leanings but all I'm clearly getting from your posts is 'angry hardman'. A true reflection of your character? Hopefully not.

Why hopefully not? Anger is a normal natural human emotion, and if by hardman you mean 6’2”, 15 stone, and with 25 years of martial arts background, black belts in three martial arts, then yes I could be called that. What is it with you lefties and name calling though?

I wasn't referring to you personally but to the tendency of left wingers (left whingers) here to constantly act in hypocritical ways.
The Ex-Engineer - on 22 May 2013
In reply to UKC News: First, thanks for the heads up.

Second, thanks for picking my photo of Rob to illustrate the news item!

Third, I now feel vindicated for being completely paranoid this year about leaving literally NOTHING in my car, the glove box open and parcel shelve removed. I'm not sure about the suggestion of leaving doors unlocked and/or window open but I'll certainly ponder on it.

Fourth, I too saw the extensive broken glass recently at Ham Hill (<1 mile from my house) mentioned by Leon but I wasn't aware it was as many as 6 cars that had been broken into. It is always disappointing when crime happens on your doorstep.
Offwidth - on 22 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:

You already have legal rights to protect yourself and your property. This does not include maiming minor criminals who pose no threat to your person. I know a good acne cream.
jkarran - on 22 May 2013
In reply to stroppygob:

> Why did you feel the need to attack the poster? If his views are not yours, that's up to live with.

I didn't attack. I questioned whether he was serious given his post was advocating behavior well outside of what's currently acceptable and legal.

> I like many others state my thoughts bluntly. If we believe that should we catch some scoundrel breaking into our cars we would dish out some instant karma, then why not allow us those inclinations?

You're welcome to your inclinations and you're welcome to question mine, have I said otherwise? Have I told you to shut up or keep your views to yourself (as you did me)? I'm well within my rights to question and criticize what I don't agree with. If your views stand scrutiny then stand behind them, defend them.

> If you would let them run off with your kit, your wallet and your car, while awaiting police intervention that’s up to you.

Maybe I would, some things just aren't worth the risk. Maybe I wouldn't, who knows. Either way, there is a *huge* difference between intervening to stop a theft, and deliberately maiming someone in retribution. That's not 'instant karma', don't kid yourself. That's simple thuggery.

> As far as I can see in this thread, people have expressed views on how they would deal with that circumstance, but only those with self asserting views have been attacked for it.

Self asserting? I'm not familiar with the phrase, sorry. Does that include me because I appear to be attracting at least as much flak as you are.

> Why do those of a left wing persuasion, who seem to hold their “PC” views with a religious fervour, feel they have to use teh very tactics they pretent to dislike against anyone with right of centre views.

Have I threatened vigilante action against you or anyone else? Have I threatened violence? Are these the tactics I'm using because they're the ones I'm questioning?

> Why hopefully not? Anger is a normal natural human emotion...

Not as a norm it isn't.

> ...and if by hardman you mean 6’2”, 15 stone, and with 25 years of martial arts background, black belts in three martial arts, then yes I could be called that.

The perfect reply.

> What is it with you lefties and name calling though?

LOL. What is it with you presuming I'm a 'leftie'? I am by the way but barely. The name calling is me expressing my frustration, it's me being childish, it has bugger all to do with my rather limited and mainstream thoughts on economics. Pacifist might be a more fitting 'insult' if you insist on pigeon holing me and responding to the stereotype rather than responding to me as an individual.

> I wasn't referring to you personally but to the tendency of left wingers (left whingers) here to constantly act in hypocritical ways.

You're responding to me and you're insulting me in those responses and in responses to others. I don't mind but you could at least have the balls to acknowledge it.

<Genuine curiosity> perhaps you could point out my consistent hypocrisy, I'm predictably blind to it.
jk
Rockmonkey1977 on 22 May 2013
Alex Parker - on 22 May 2013
That is exactly what should happen to a thief.

offwidth and jkarran, you are both pathetic. People like you are the reason the average person has no faith in our justice system. Yes this is a personal attack because i believe there would be a better justice system if it were not for do-gooders like you. I will give you an example. It was something i read today and immediately thought of you jkarran.

The fact that the nspcc felt the need to comment shows that this is not a random, poorly researched news story.

A judge did not sentence an ex army officer to prison because it would mean he would not receive his £1 million pension pot. He stated that the crime did not require him to be removed of his future income. His crime was taking video footage of children in a swimming pool and taking up-skirt photographs of young girls near to his army base. Do the research if you feel the need. I wonder if he would have received the same kind of leniency from myself, or pylon king, or stroppy gob???

I fully appreciate that the crimes are hardly the same but it gives an example of why people like me are so pissed of with our justice system in general. If you don't want retribution, don't break into my f*cking car. It really is as simple as that.
Morgan P - on 23 May 2013
In reply to gethin_allen:
> (In reply to Rockmonkey1977)
> "satnavs etc stashed under seats, in glove compartments etc (especially if they see the giveaway ring marks on the windscreen"
> I didn't think anyone bothered to steal satnavs or stereos any more, it's all about expensive smartphones, laptops and I pads.
>
> Either that or my area is better than I give it credit for as people leave their satnavs on the windscreen and I haven't heard of anyone having anything stolen in the 2 years I've been there.

Think you live in a nice area! Housemate had his car broken in to for the satnav the other month. Guy didn't use to be on straight and narrow before uni and so it was even more frustrating for him knowing that it cost him like £150 and they were gunna sell it on for like £20..

There is a lot of scum in this world. I'm on the side of creating a trap..

Morgan P - on 23 May 2013
In reply to LaMentalist:
> I had one of the scrotes in my grip while his greasy mate watched from behind a tree , I didn't have the heart to batter him that night , he was in tears within twenty seconds the pussy . He did get a visit couple of weeks later though .
>
> I maybe down in Devon mid June and I would be up for some surveillance , could even use my car as bait maybe .


You hero!

stroppygob - on 23 May 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to stroppygob)
>
> You already have legal rights to protect yourself and your property. This does not include maiming minor criminals who pose no threat to your person. I know a good acne cream.


I'll ask your mother for some next time she's.....

Why do you need to insult? You're such a child, yet you accuse others of 'having acne". Infantile.
jkarran - on 23 May 2013
In reply to papabear:

> I will give you an example. It was something i read today and immediately thought of you jkarran.

Link to the story: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22597077

Sounds like a very good example of why we leave these difficult, often unpopular decisions to trained, dispassionate professionals working within strong guidelines. Hopefully it was the right decision, the punishment proportional the sex-offenders programme leaves society safer.

> I wonder if he would have received the same kind of leniency from myself, or pylon king, or stroppy gob???

No I don't imagine he would but then nor do I imagine much good would come of it either. I am actually curious what you would deem appropriate?

I'm disappointed you couldn't keep your reply civil but I didn't have high hopes.
jk
Alex Parker - on 23 May 2013
What is it with you people thinking i care how disappointed you are? I gave you the moral high ground the second i deliberately insulted you. I don't want the moral high ground as i do not need it to mke myself feel better about my opinion. I do think you are an idiot and i have no issue telling you.

You complained to somebody else that they didn't have the decency to admit they were attacking you. I am admitting it!

I have very strong views on the subject and i also have a child, so the idea of somebody not being sentenced to prison for the kind of crimes that army officer committed makes me feel sick. To hear that the reason is purely so he can keep his pension defies belief. You asked my opinion on the sentence i would have given? Prison! The very sentence the judge said was relevant but did not give because the offender would lose his pension! I am quite well paid and will have quite a good pension so i assume that i can rely on that to keep me out of prison should i take a liking to children in a few yers?

My abuser recieved a 4 1/2 year prison sentence for what he did to me as a child. Most peoples memories of their first sexual experiences are funny, embarrassing, fond etc. Mine was with my step father. Thanks a lot 'dad'. He served 18 months of his 4 1/2 year sentence and was let out go go back and live half a mile away from my house! When the judge sentenced him (and i was there, watching) he said the sentence would have been longer if it were not for his outstanding community work (he was station officer at the local firestation and chairman of the local rotary club in Clevedon. His name is Tony Hutchinson. He violated me and ruined my childhood and received credit for his community work and served less than half his sentence!

So yes, i am completely the wrong person to be getting involved in this arguement as my views are poisoned by personal experience and go completely the opposite direction to yours. The difference is mine is based on fact and experience and yours is based on an ideal world we do not live in. If i caught someobody sexually abusing my son i would cut their head off. i am sure you think that would be too severe a punishment. Lets hope if you have children you are never in that position.

Incidently, over a third of all people in british prisons have been abused as children, sexually or otherwise. before you start talking nonsense like 'the sexual offenders programme leaves the country a safer place' you might want to ask those people in prison for their thoughts.

jkarran - on 23 May 2013
In reply to papabear:

I'm sorry you suffered that.

I think you're misreading that story somewhat. The court has a responsibility to protect the public, to punish the offender and to do so proportionally, to do justice. A difficult balance to strike and one virtually guaranteed to leave people dissatisfied. Clearly it occasionally leads to decisions that can seem odd.

I will pick up your last point since you've a) slightly but significantly misquoted me and b) seem to be rather missing my point.

My point is that unless you plan to permanently remove offenders from society you need to take steps to reduce the risk of them re-offending within that society.

I said 'hopefully', I meant that, I hope the court's intervention compelling him to seek help has reduced the risk of his re-offending or his behavior deteriorating further. I hope it's reduced the risk of him harming anyone else. Personally I'd like to see some rigor applied to this so we don't have to hope, we'd know what is and isn't effective in reducing harm.

Don't presume my world's ideal because it's lead me to a different viewpoint.
jk
knthrak1982 on 23 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:

For me, what bothers me about that case is the judge considering the pension.

If the crime warrants a prison sentence, that's what the judge should award. It wouldn't be the court that is denying him his pension.

If the loss of pension as a result of incarceration were considered unfair, the criminal should appeal to the organisation that has withdrawn it, making it a separate issue. I could lose my job as a result of a criminal conviction, but that shouldn't affect my sentence were I to commit a crime.

Though I accept I'm not a legal expert and such decisions should be left to them. Doesn't make me happy when such a decision is made though.
Alex Parker - on 23 May 2013
> (In reply to jkarran)
>
> For me, what bothers me about that case is the judge considering the pension.
>
> If the crime warrants a prison sentence, that's what the judge should award. It wouldn't be the court that is denying him his pension.

My point entirely. However unlikely it may be, these children could read about this or find out by rumour and it could affect them in ways you cannot measure. All whilst Mr ex army officer sits on his pension.

Dispite my strong views I don't want him to be hung, or shot. But the very least our justice system should be doing is acting on the punishments available, regardless of the financial loss to the offender.

I know me saying in my previous post about taking a fancy to children and getting off a prison sentence by claiming my pension would be ruined is petty and OTT but let's face it, what kind of a message does it send out?
Alex Parker - on 23 May 2013
I do not feel I have mis-read the story at all. He was not sent to prison as it would mean he would lose his pension as part of the terms and conditions of an army pension. He would have known that when he committed the crimes and even if he didn't that is his own problem. That is the kind of 'misfortune' you should expect when you take a fancy to kids.

Something you seem to be completely missing in your arguement is the effect of the soft punishments on the victims. Yes we need to make sure people do not re-offend, but not at the expense of further sufferring for the victims. I will again use myself as an example. I went into a spiral when my ex stepfather was sent to prison. We were expecting around 10 years, not 4 1/2 reduced to 18 months. I was very angry, went completely off the rails, got involved in drugs and ended up trying to kill myself. I was rushed to hospital after downing 24 lemsip packets (don't ask, it was all that was in the cabinet) and had my stomach pumped. I could very easily be one of the thousands of people in prison who have gone off the rails after being so poorly treated as a victim.

As somebody who has been on the wrong end of a ridiculous judge ruling, i can tell you now that it is very easy to turn away from society. what is the good making sure the criminals get all the help they need when the good people end up becoming criminals themselves? One is swapped for another. The balance needs to be far more in the favour of the victim.
jkarran - on 23 May 2013
In reply to papabear:

> Dispite my strong views I don't want him to be hung, or shot. But the very least our justice system should be doing is acting on the punishments available, regardless of the financial loss to the offender.

The justice system exists to do justice. Two people committing that same crime should ideally receive the same punishment, that's just. If two men are each sentenced to a year in prison for the same crime but one of them incurs £1M losses as a direct and foreseeable result of their particular circumstances, the other doesn't then the sentences aren't equal, not even close.

> I know me saying in my previous post about taking a fancy to children and getting off a prison sentence by claiming my pension would be ruined is petty and OTT but let's face it, what kind of a message does it send out?

I'm afraid that depends in part at least on your perspective.

I'm not arguing for the views of the victim to be ignored, far from it if you read back through what I've said but they do at times need to be tempered.
jk
knthrak1982 on 23 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to papabear)
>
If two men are each sentenced to a year in prison for the same crime but one of them incurs £1M losses as a direct and foreseeable result of their particular circumstances, the other doesn't then the sentences aren't equal, not even close.
>

They are! The sentence is for one year in prison. The court doesn't sentence someone to "loss of income".
jkarran - on 23 May 2013
In reply to knthrak1982:

> They are! The sentence is for one year in prison. The court doesn't sentence someone to "loss of income".

Well we'll have to agree to differ on that since there's no point in me simply restating it.

And the courts do sentence people to loss of income, they call it a fine.
jk
Alex Parker - on 23 May 2013
It isn't the views of the victims i am talking about. It is the consequences of making them feel like they have not received justice and what this may lead to. Their actual views are not as important, it is how they react in the short and long term.

For example. What if i were to commit murder and kill my ex step father as a direct result of the anger created by the matter not being dealt with appropriately? Perhaps if i had felt that the sentence he received was more in line with what we all expected i would not harbour as much anger? In fact i can tell you now that i am more angry that he recevied such a light sentence than the crimes themselves. I was never off the rails until the judge made his ruling. That is what tipped me over the edge.

The two sentences you talk about are identical. One loses more as a result but he should not be protected from that. Should those with large pension pots expect a more lenient punishment then? I know that is not exactly what you are saying, but the result is the same! Yes the two sentences should be identical, but the results of those sentences should be for the offender to deal with, not the court.

The way you describe it is exaclty what i am talking about when i say you view the world in a far more perfect way than i do. If two criminals commit the same crime their punishment should be identicle. Him losing his pension is not a punishment from the court, it is a term of his pension and as rightly suggested by somebody else is an entirely different matter, to be taken up with the provider. Or should all criminals build up a big pension pot to add a little more protection to their CHOSEN lifestyle?? Because i am sure you will tell me i have mis-quoted you, but that is exactly what you are saying.
knthrak1982 on 23 May 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to knthrak1982)
>
> [...]
>
> Well we'll have to agree to differ on that since there's no point in me simply restating it.
>
> And the courts do sentence people to loss of income, they call it a fine.

The example you gave was not referring to a fine. But yes, we'll agree to differ.
Sean Kelly - on 24 May 2013
In reply to UKC News: To get the thread back on track, my new MX5 had the front bonnet badly vandalised last summer parked below Haytor when I was climbing. Great big chunks had been hacked out. It cost nearly £400 for the repair, and investigation by the garage revealed that the culprit was a ....horse! Teeth marks you see. Perhaps I need to erect a fence around the car in future.

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