/ Paleo

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Shani - on 26 Jun 2013
The paleo approach continues to gain traction amongst professional athletes:

"The results for Zabriskie were impressive, DeVore says. Over the course of their time together the 6-foot cyclist dropped his body weight from 168 pounds to 154 while improving his dead lift from 150 pounds to 245. This while increasing his power on the bike by about 15 percent. He performed well in the Volta a Catalunya, an early-season Spanish stage race, before dropping out in the last stage due to illness."

Read more:http://www.mensjournal.com/health-fitness/nutrition/paleos-latest-converts-20130618#ixzz2XLyJDENtFo... us:@mensjournal on Twitter|MensJournal on Facebook

DDDD - on 26 Jun 2013
Shani - on 26 Jun 2013
In reply to DDDD: Interesting, although nothing in that film addresses the results of the empirical experiment in my link. All she does is question the nature of what 'paleo' is.

Strangely enough the lady in your link recommends a remarkably paleo-like diet at the end.
DDDD - on 26 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:
Yes it's all quite interesting. On a personal level I've gone back to eating more grains as the low body glucogen levels couldn't be alleviated by eating more veg - may be just my body chemistry though, although I hadn't anticipated it being an O type blood group.
shark - on 26 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani and DDDD:


get a room
ice.solo - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:

i have no problem with paleo. i eat somewhat like it myself because it works for my lifestyle. no argument there.

BUT, while i think it has a lot to do with this guys weight stripping, id question how much it has to do with his DL.

those weights for a DL, for that height and body weight, are pretty average. whilst i have no doubt that DLing has little real value for a cyclist, and that the improvement is indeed dramatic, its still within the realm of just normal initial improvement for anybody, regardless of nutrition.

this is not an attack on paleo, just questioning the data.

if, by example, he had plateaued around 2 x body weight then suddenly improved by 10% when the only changing factor was diet, id be convinced. but starting with a DL of less than bodyweight suggests hed simply never lifted before. if we follow the standard train of thought that 2 x bodyweight is the beginning of actual 'strength' (ie not just technique and form) then 'poor' to 'getting there' im not sure indicates diet as a primary factor (for the lifting, no doubt it is re the weight loss).

given time tho, im happy to be shown otherwise.
IainRUK - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani: I was thinking about this recently.. I know many runners in the US who are paleo.. but there running can be very weight focussed due to the US weight issues.. so are there any top, I don't mean very good.. I mean top endurance runners who are paleo? Sub 2:10 marathoners, sub 62 half marathoners, sub 28 10k? sort of times?
Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to DDDD:
> (In reply to Shani)
> Yes it's all quite interesting. On a personal level I've gone back to eating more grains as the low body glucogen levels couldn't be alleviated by eating more veg - may be just my body chemistry though, although I hadn't anticipated it being an O type blood group.

There is no one paleo diet. Grains are arguably 'in' - depending on the type of grain and how it is prepared.

To replenish glycogen, personally I avoid most processed grain-based foods but eat a lot of potatoes on a training day.
Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Shani) I was thinking about this recently.. I know many runners in the US who are paleo.. but there running can be very weight focussed due to the US weight issues.. so are there any top, I don't mean very good.. I mean top endurance runners who are paleo? Sub 2:10 marathoners, sub 62 half marathoners, sub 28 10k? sort of times?

Not sure. Novak Djokavic is one of the few elite sportmen who has adopted a what may well be considered a paleo-style diet as has Bradley Wiggins.
Bob kate bob on 27 Jun 2013
Arms Cliff - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
> [...]
>
> Not sure. Novak Djokavic is one of the few elite sportmen who has adopted a what may well be considered a paleo-style diet as has Bradley Wiggins.

Are rice and porridge 'in' on the paleo diet then? As Wiggins certainly gets through a lot of both!
Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Arms Cliff:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
>
> Are rice and porridge 'in' on the paleo diet then? As Wiggins certainly gets through a lot of both!

Nigel Mitchell (the nutritionist with British Cycling) said of Wiggins' diet:

"With Bradley we looked at the minimum amount of food he needed to do the training and get the recovery, but also looked at the structure of the food he was eating so there was no waste...there were no junk calories, so carbohydrates were restricted and white sugar was out".

This was from a Sunday Time article on 15th July last year.

The popular implementation of paleo goes for a simplified message of 'no grains' but it is actually more nuanced than that.
Bob kate bob on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Arms Cliff: To me they are not. Think some people do. A less extreame form of paleo is clean eating. They might be eating something more along those lines.

I eat almost paleo though I find it difficult at breakfast time as I don't eat eggs (unless I can't taste them and they don't have any egg texture).
It is also a lot harder if you regularly travel as food has to be planned in advance.

Going almost paleo for me has given me more energy and I don't get a bloated lethargic feeling I used to have. Though I used to eat a fair amount of veg, this has now gone up loads, I am well over my 5 a day most days.

If I do eat high carb stuff (due to bad food planning, or not being in control of what I eat) I find I get an upset stomach really easily.

So for me it is mostly possative though the food planning for me and the ocasional upset stomach is the down side. Though previous my stomach was never happy.
Tall Clare - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Bob kate bob:
> (
>
> If I do eat high carb stuff (due to bad food planning, or not being in control of what I eat) I find I get an upset stomach really easily.
>
> So for me it is mostly possative though the food planning for me and the ocasional upset stomach is the down side. Though previous my stomach was never happy.

This is interesting - do you think it was linked to gluten intolerance (assuming, perhaps erroneously, that the carbs you refer to are glutinous)? (I confess to having gluten on the brain at the moment)
Bob kate bob on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Tall Clare: I'm not sure. I presume I am not Celiac as I have never had a problem with decreased appetite or failure to gain weight.

Dare I say giving the way I eat a medical reason would mean it would be a lot easier. Deciding I wanted to eat in a speific way because it makes me feel better sounds flakey to most people, to be honest some people really do not respect my choice. For instance after telling someone that I don't eat bread, through every meal I ate with them they keeped on offering bread and saying how wonderful it was. This sort of behaviour does try my patience.

If I could say that I have to eat in a certain way due to a medical issue, I am sure people do not question it.
ClimberEd - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to all:

If you just go 'low GI', avoided fatty meats and make sure you mix up what you eat you are most of the way towards paleo.

aka, a healthy diet :)
Tall Clare - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Bob kate bob:

I think you're probably right - and I agree that it's very odd of people to question that.
Martin Wing - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to ClimberEd: avoiding fatty meats is definitely not paleo.
3 Names - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Martin Wing:

Surely though the idea is that animals during the paleolithic era were wild, i.e. they were much leaner than their modern farm bread equivalent?
3 Names - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:

Bred.
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hoodmonkey - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:

I went fairly strict Paleo after Christmas, cutting all grains and sugar, but still eating legumes, potatoes and sweet potatoes.

I ate plenty of fish, loads of veg, avocados until they were coming out of my ears and olive oil to dress most things! I shredded most of the fat I was carrying in about two months and never felt the need to control portions. I also felt full throughout the day without uncomfortable bloating.

I have recently relaxed the diet a bit and let some grains in, mainly in the form of beer, as well as sugar at weekend.

For me it was effective and satisfying, without feeling too restrictive, although breakfast pretty much every day was avocado, tomato, cashew nuts, dressed with olive oil!
IainRUK - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Bob kate bob:
> (In reply to IainRUK) I don't know if this is any interest for you.
>
> http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/08/11/western-states-100-low-carber-wins-ultramarathon-steve-phi...

Such a petty he doesn't say what he ate..

I'm eating better and better and feeling the difference but still eat potatos, sweet potatos and rice.

TBH one of my main meals is simple sauer kraut.. chopped potatoes, sauerkraut, bratwurst, broth, onion boil up a pan.. eat for 4 days.. then have spinnach on the side.

But I've found just avoiding any processed foods (other than sausages (I'm in Germany..) has made a big difference to weight and energy.

But I burn a good 1000 calories a day extra I'm just not sure I could could carbs.

Thats why it would be good to know what Tim did..
ClimberEd - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Martin Wing:
> (In reply to ClimberEd) avoiding fatty meats is definitely not paleo.

Yes it is - paleo targets lean meats (as the animals were running around being hunted down etc blah blah.)
ring ouzel on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to ClimberEd: No it doesn't. It targets grass-fed over grain-fed but most of us eating Paleo or Primal eat lots of fat (I get through cartons of double cream every week). I also eat a lot more veggies now than I ever did, lots of cheese and a lot more eggs (at least 3 every day), plus meat at least 6 days out of 7. I've lost 1.5 stone since January.

Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to ClimberEd:

Many 'ancestral' people went after the FATTIEST ruminants. The Blackfoot tribe hunted the fattiest animals (bison), and focused on the fattiest cuts. Bones were crushed and boiled in hide-lined pits to extract the fat.

Check out http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imagining-Head-smashed--Aboriginal-Buffalo-Northern/dp/189742504X/ref=sr_1_1...

The fat levels of wild animals may change seasonally, but herbivores - those we seem to have hunted for most of our past - sustain high levels of fat throughout the year.

Closer to home look at the fat content of duck.
3 Names - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to ring ouzel:

I dont know if im being thick here, how does dairy produce fit in a paleo diet?
ring ouzel on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Vince McNally: Some paleo people dont eat dairy and some do. Most paleo types agree that processed foods (such as ready meals) are out, sugar is out, grains are out. There are arguments over dairy and potatoes and some folk argue that oats and rice are OK but other grains are not. Personally I have cut down on milk and upped the amount of cheese and cream I eat. Mark Sissons in 'The Primal Blueprint' reckons dairy is OK.
3 Names - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to ring ouzel:

Why do they call it a paleo diet then?
ring ouzel on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Vince McNally: No idea Vince. Marketing I suppose. All I know is it is working for me. For example I now have more energy, so much so that now the rain has stopped I'm off to Glen Affric for a walk.
3 Names - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to ring ouzel:

Good for you, Ive no doubt your approach is working.

Clearly though its not a paleo diet. Its a bit like being a vegetarian that still eats chicken.
Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to ring ouzel)
>
> Good for you, Ive no doubt your approach is working.
>
> Clearly though its not a paleo diet. Its a bit like being a vegetarian that still eats chicken.

There is no ONE paleo diet. No versions are vegetarian - that much I can say. It could be broadly summarised as 'eat real food'.

Some people don't tolerate dairy - and only domestication would have allowed us to eat it in the quantities that we do in the West. So you can see that this is a grey area.

Same with grains. Grains would have given a poor return on investment prior to domestication and would have been seasonally consumed.

Modern agriculture focuses on wheat which is gluten heavy. But gluten is not a problem with corn, millet, rye etc... Phytic acid and lectins are potentially problematic but not with grains that have been processed in traditional ways.

Modern strains of wheat engineered for profitability rather than health and modern processing follows a similar goal.

Perhaps the biggest benefit of 'paleo' is that it has helped to reframe the issue of fat in the diet.
3 Names - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:

and dairy?
3 Names - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:

OK lets try a (possibly) simpler approach.

What cant you eat?
Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to Vince McNally)
>
> OK lets try a (possibly) simpler approach.
>
> What cant you eat?

If you can hunt it with a stick or forage for it - and particularly if you can eat it raw it is 'paleo'.

If it requires minimal processessing and is processed in a traditional way (ie to a nutritional profile consistent with ancestral methods), through cooking, soaking, sprouting and fermenting, then it is probably 'paleo' but agreement on this bit varies.

If it has the same name worldwide, can be 'reformulated' to reflect dietary fads of the day, or has an extended shelf life; NOT paleo!

3 Names - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:

Thanks for that
Tall Clare - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:

Hello,
I have a paleo question that you might be able to answer - it follows on from my questions last week about going gluten-free.

Has much been written about the link between paleo and mood? Or more specifically cutting out gluten-y grain?
Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Vince McNally:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> Thanks for that

NP - the thing to remember is that 'paleo' is just a kind of shorthand phrase, but with many grey areas.

This means the basic message is (over) simplified, but give people enough of a grasp of things to make real changes to their health, and get leaner, in many, many cases, without calorie counting and gnawing hunger.
Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Tall Clare:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> Hello,
> I have a paleo question that you might be able to answer - it follows on from my questions last week about going gluten-free.
>
> Has much been written about the link between paleo and mood? Or more specifically cutting out gluten-y grain?

There is a link between gluten and anxiety/depression, and, schizophrenia! Gut flora and gut health are a big topic in the paleo sphere so you might want to look on PaleoHacks. In the meantime you might find this interesting:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2883134/
Tall Clare - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:

Hmm, at a glance that suggests that going gluten free can *increase* anxiety in someone with Coeliac Disease! Eek. It's not me that's coeliac, but if we're going gluten-free then that's something for us to bear in mind... I'll have a look at PaleoHacks. Thanks for this!
Arms Cliff - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:
> "With Bradley we looked at the minimum amount of food he needed to do the training and get the recovery, but also looked at the structure of the food he was eating so there was no waste...there were no junk calories, so carbohydrates were restricted and white sugar was out".
>
> This was from a Sunday Time article on 15th July last year.
>
> The popular implementation of paleo goes for a simplified message of 'no grains' but it is actually more nuanced than that.

Ah the article went on -

"It's not rocket science.' said Mitchell. 'It's simple stuff'. On the Tour, Bradley will eat porridge in the morning or rice and an omelette. On the bike he's taking in 60-90g of carbs per hour in rice cakes, energy gels or sports drinks. The evening meal is carefully planned so there's protein for recovery and carbs for energy.'

A rider's calorie intake on the Tour ranges from 4000 to 9000 calories per stage.""

60-90 carbs per hour every day from a white rice cake and refined sugars in gels and drinks - this is the fuel for riding!
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Shani - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Arms Cliff:

Yeah - looks like there is a time and a place to 'eat shite' - certainly for the elites when in competition mode. I understand Dean Karnazes does something similar.
IainRUK - on 27 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to Arms Cliff)
>
> Yeah - looks like there is a time and a place to 'eat shite' - certainly for the elites when in competition mode. I understand Dean Karnazes does something similar.

I wouldn't take too much from DK... the pizza incident is severly questioned I think.. but seeing others eat, coke-a-cola remains a favourite.
Arms Cliff - on 28 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani: So eat 'paleo' when you're trying to lose weight, go back to simple carbs when you need some energy for aerobic sports.
Bulls Crack - on 28 Jun 2013
In reply to Arms Cliff:
> (In reply to Shani) So eat 'paleo' when you're trying to lose weight, go back to simple carbs when you need some energy for aerobic sports.

And if you want to do both.....?
switch - on 28 Jun 2013
In reply to Bulls Crack:

As said above, "Paleo" in the current fad sense just means avoiding heavily processed foods and avoiding synthetic ingredients, preservatives etc. Beyond that, you can eat what you like and call it paleo if you want to. It bears little resemblance to any of the diets of paleolithic humans.

The last guy to eat a 'strict paleo' diet died around 10,000yrs ago and had a life expectancy of 30-40yrs - tempted? I think I'll stick to the Common Sense diet.
Shani - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Bulls Crack:
> (In reply to Arms Cliff)
> [...]
>
> And if you want to do both.....?

I've maintained single digit BF for 7 years following this approach. No 'cardio' nor calorie counting. I went through a phase of lower carbs in the first year, but soon realised I need to eat a lot of carbs post workout to make fast progress.

I seldom eat 'processed' stuff and it rarely appeals to me. As above, a lot of people find health improves on such a diet.
Shani - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to switch:
> (In reply to Bulls Crack)
> The last guy to eat a 'strict paleo' diet died around 10,000yrs ago and had a life expectancy of 30-40yrs - tempted? I think I'll stick to the Common Sense diet.


The '30-40yrs life expectancy' is absolute bollocks and one of those memes that refuses to die. Once they got past 5yrs, paleo man made threescore and ten. They seldom died of malnutrition (it took agriculture to do that, with the concept of the failed harvest).

'Paleo' as generally practised is common sense because it is nutritionally complete, requires food that cannot be reformulated to dietary whim, and, avoids calorie counting.
nw - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to switch)
> [...]
>
>
> Once they got past 5yrs, paleo man made threescore and ten. They seldom died of malnutrition
>
>
Sources?

Shani - on 29 Jun 2013
nw - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani: Cheers will have a read.
switch - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:

Thanks for posting the links.

Looking at the GurvenKaplan paper, I think you may have mis-interpreted the findings. They state on p349:
"The average modal age of adult death for hunter-gatherers is 72 yrs with a range of 6878 years" (where adult is defined as >15 yrs of age). This is not the same as life expectancy at birth.
and if you look at their fig3, the life expectancies at birth, of the 20th century HG populations studied, range from 27 yrs to 42 yrs. The prehistoric life expectancy at birth is given as 20 yrs.

In the Cassidy study covered in the ProteinPower blog, the range of life expectancies at birth for the two populations studied range from 16 yrs to 23 yrs (in fig1)

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that you're fit, lean and healthy. I just wonder why you cling to the "paleo" label? It seems to breed an evangelical enthusiasm that the data doesn't back up.

AJM - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to switch:

I don't think he has, or at least not in any massive way? You're just talking about different measures.

Life expectancy from birth of 27-40 years fits with what other people have said.
Life expectancy from age 15 68-78 years fits very broadly with him saying if you reached 5 you could likely reach 70.

Life expectancy from age x always increases as x increases - in the Uk now there's still a good few years difference between life expectancy at birth and at age 65.

And in ancient societies where infant mortality was very very high there will have been lots of children dying which brings down the average from birth. Think of it as two populations, one population where everyone reaches 15 and hence on average lives to 70, and one, the unlucky children, who die at age 2-3. The average of the two is what gives you the 27-40 year figure.

In terms of what implications it has on the subject of diet, the question of which measure is right depends rather a lot on how the children died - if they couldn't feed because their mothers were on a diet that didn't allow them to produce milk, where a different diet could (ie it was the diet makeup rather than simply too little of it) then the lower figure is relevant, if the children were primarily dying from other causes unrelated to the diet of them or their parents then arguably a life expectancy from 5, 15 or whatever is a sensible measure to use.
switch - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to AJM:

I agree. My previous post was in response to Shani's statement:

"The '30-40yrs life expectancy' is absolute bollocks and one of those memes that refuses to die."

As you say, on the question of which life expectancy measure is most influenced by diet, the key would be knowing what the causes of infant mortality were for paleolithic HGs, which we can't tell from Shani's sources here. If I was a betting man, I would put money on diet being one of multiple factors! :)

The cautious approach would be to consider the entire population (life expectancy from birth) rather than to arbitrarily exclude the section of population with the highest mortality (infants) without justification. Unless, of course, one has an argument to prop up, or a vested interest in the Paleo lifestyle industry...
biscuit - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to AJM:

The dinosaurs ate them, obviously !

My take on this is much more simple. Processed food = bad. Non processed food = good.

It's the basis of the Racing Weight diet where he uses a simple diet quality score to encourage you to eat a variety of foods that are non processed.

My personal experience was that i kept getting very sluggish and tired. It's always happened to me. After my traditional breakfast of Weetabix i'd be falling asleep again on the school bus. I'd wake up before lunch ( sandwiches ) and then feel tired again after eating them. It had been the same after most meals nearly all my life.

After reading Racing Weight i stopped eating pasta and also cut out all bread and refined flour. I felt a million times better. I went on a canal boat holiday with some friends a few months after and we ate bacon butties for breakfast, sandwiches for lunch and pasta for tea. After 3 days i spent the day in bed with what felt like the worst migraine ever and a terrible stomach. Anecdotal evidence at its best.

Now i do eat bread, but rarely, and try to stick to wholewheat stuff and i'm afraid i can't get on with brown rice. It seems to be the right balance for me though and is easy to follow without going OTT.
AJM - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to biscuit:

Do you fuel yourself (carbs wise) mainly on potato then? And out of curiosity what do you take as climbing snacks?

Interesting that you started some of this as a result of Racing Weight - obviously he is against a lot of the usual processed nasties but I don't recall, apart from being big on wholemeal, that he was massively down on bread and pasta and that sort of thing.
biscuit - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to AJM:

No he's not, just avoid white bread,pasta and rice is what he says. I adapted it as no matter how long you cook brown rice for it's still an inedible, cardboard based, foodstuff in my opinion.

I cut out the bread totally to see if it was too much wheat that was making me sluggish. Still can't say it was just anecdotally that when i do eat a lot of stuff with wheat as the main ingredient it comes back.

CLimbing food of choice at the moment is fruit ( bananas, avocados ) fig bread ( lots of figs squished together into a tube shape ) hummus or guacamole with carrot sticks and lots of nuts.

I did have a twix and a can of full fat coke on the way to the crag yesterday though. I was feeling ill and needed a sugar rush for the walk in - it's a long one for Spain, maybe 15 mins.
mbh - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:

There are 7 billion odd of us. Those big meaty animals that were around in paleo times got driven to extinction when there were only paleo numbers of us. So if we want to eat meat, hunting mammoths won't kee us going for very long. Anyway, each kilo of meat or dairy product that we eat releases 14 or 15 kilo of CO2 into the atmosphere. Doesn't really matter where it comes from. So maybe we should stop trying to be paleo and find ways of living that work for the modern world as it is.

Those Okinawans, many of whom live to 100, what do they eat?
AJM - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to biscuit:

Ah I quite like brown rice!

Hummus idea not a bad one, might try that out with hunks of pepper and tomatoes and stuff.

I did do some baked chickpeas once upon a time (cook them, roll in spices, bake in oven until crunchy) which were pretty good.

Need to health up the climbing foodstuffs methinks, too many flapjacks and cheese sarnies...
kirsten on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to AJM: climbing snacks: cheese, meat, nuts, nakd bars - heaps more energy, especially in winter.
biscuit - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to AJM:

I was horrified/impressed to see a well known wad get a multi pack of frosted doughnuts out at the crag in Spain for his crag food.

He reckoned on a climbing day calories are calories and he didn't care where they came from and the sugar rush helped his climbing.

He claimed to eat healthily the rest of the time - but his obsession with cake leads me to believe otherwise.

I think just find what works for you. The DQS from racing weight is super simple for me to follow, doesn't interfere with family meals and i don't need to calorie count. As i say though i don't follow it blindly - brown rice = bleuurgh !
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Shani - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to switch:
> If I was a betting man, I would put money on diet being one of multiple factors! :)

Until you supply evidence, this is just a guess.

I'd suggest accidents, viruses, parasites, disease, and the risks in childbirth etc... were more of a factor in infant mortality.

The Eades link I provided suggests that nutritional stress was most prominent amongst agriculturists that HG. Certainly the nutritional profile of a HG diet would be complete.
Shani - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to mbh:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> There are 7 billion odd of us. Those big meaty animals that were around in paleo times got driven to extinction when there were only paleo numbers of us. So if we want to eat meat, hunting mammoths won't kee us going for very long. Anyway, each kilo of meat or dairy product that we eat releases 14 or 15 kilo of CO2 into the atmosphere. Doesn't really matter where it comes from. So maybe we should stop trying to be paleo and find ways of living that work for the modern world as it is.

Such simple analysis hides a host of problems and arable farming (certainly as practiced in the West), is not the solution - certainly not in its present form.

When you look out on a ploughed field in Europe or the USA it is basically a barren wilderness devoid of much complexity and heavily managed by various pesticides and chemical fertilisers. The problem is that arable farming competes with wildlife at the base of the good chain. In contrast, herbivores can be grazed upon wild vegatation that is adapted to the local climate. Herbivores allow flora and fauna to flourish which supports biodiversity. The manure of animals supports the vegetation in a feedback mechanism. It is a balanced system.

Look what 10000 years has done to the Middle East - turned most of it to desert. In Africa they are already turning desert back to vegetated land by reintroducing herbivores. Once indigenous vegetation returns this brings a host of benefits - not least locking in greater volumes of water to the local hydrological cycle.

> Those Okinawans, many of whom live to 100, what do they eat?

Why choose just these Okinawans? And when looking a blue zones there are plenty of smokers and drinkers amongst them. Few if any are vegetarians and even fewer 'work out'.
Arms Cliff - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to mbh)
> [...]

>
> When you look out on a ploughed field in Europe or the USA it is basically a barren wilderness devoid of much complexity and heavily managed by various pesticides and chemical fertilisers. The problem is that arable farming competes with wildlife at the base of the good chain. In contrast, herbivores can be grazed upon wild vegatation that is adapted to the local climate. Herbivores allow flora and fauna to flourish which supports biodiversity. The manure of animals supports the vegetation in a feedback mechanism. It is a balanced system.


Could you explain how this simple analysis you have offered in return ties in with vast swathes of the rainforest being destroyed to produce grazing land, soy (and other cattle foodstuffs) production and ranches to provide meat for America? Your balanced system may have been sustainable when there were a few million humans, but is useless to bring up with today's population.
switch - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to switch)
> [...]
> Until you supply evidence, this is just a guess.

Quite right, it is a guess. I won't be supplying evidence - I'm not seeking to prove anything

> I'd suggest accidents, viruses, parasites, disease, and the risks in childbirth etc... were more of a factor in infant mortality.

So...apart from reducing accidents, fighting viruses, protecting from parasites, curing diseases and making childbirth safer, what exactly has the modern lifestyle done for us? :)

Best of luck with all the hunting and gathering!


Shani - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to switch:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
>
> Quite right, it is a guess. I won't be supplying evidence - I'm not seeking to prove anything
>
> [...]
>
> So...apart from reducing accidents, fighting viruses, protecting from parasites, curing diseases and making childbirth safer, what exactly has the modern lifestyle done for us? :)
> Best of luck with all the hunting and gathering!

You are confusing paleo principles with paleo re-enactment. 'Paleo' is not about re-enactment. No one has made a claim that we should avoid modern medicine and so forth, only that modern foods are not necessarily beneficial to us.

I do forage for food from time to time and fishing is the closest I get to hunting. All good fun mind.

Cheers.
Shani - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Arms Cliff:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
>
> Could you explain how this simple analysis you have offered in return ties in with vast swathes of the rainforest being destroyed to produce grazing land, soy (and other cattle foodstuffs) production and ranches to provide meat for America? Your balanced system may have been sustainable when there were a few million humans, but is useless to bring up with today's population.

No one is advocating modern industrial farming methods - either pastoral or arable. Neither are sustainable and both are heavily oil dependent. I am not sure ANY system can sustainable feed 7 billion - at least not without recourse to entomophagy.

We could start by reducing waste. We need to eat local and we need to eat the whole animal. Where we can, we need to 'grow our own' and forage.

The planet has amazing regenrative properties if we build farming on (self sustaining), evolutionary principles. For the record, extensive parts of the Amazon have been heavily formed for thousands of years and the great plains of America hosted up to 60million buffalo.
Sir Chasm - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani: I wonder how long the forage and fish would last if 60million people in the uk decided to start foraging and fishing.
tommyb - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani: I just ate a club. I wonder if that's paleo.
3 Names - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to tommyb:

Not if it was a club sandwich
Arms Cliff - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to tommyb:
> (In reply to Shani) I just ate a club. I wonder if that's paleo.

You're meant to use your club to kill food, not eat the club...

Liam M - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani: Have the authors of that read the DZ website they link to? He is publicly Vegan, a point he makes on the site.
The New NickB - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani:

Great 60m Buffalo, problem is there are 90m cattle in the US and they still import vast quantities of beef.
Arms Cliff - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani: I guess going back to the original post, it might be worth pointing out that this new approach has worked so well that DZ didn't get selected for the tour...
cbonner - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

>
> Such a petty he doesn't say what he ate..
>

Think this is what you're after Ian.

http://timothyallenolson.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/nutrition/
Shani - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> Great 60m Buffalo, problem is there are 90m cattle in the US and they still import vast quantities of beef.

What a naive comment that misses the bigger picture. The buffalo figure was provided to illustrate how much of one species can be sustainably hosted on one area of the America. This is with no 'techonology', no herbicides nor pesticides. It involved no feeding of soy to cattle. And on that same land were a host of other (edible) animals.
The New NickB - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani:

What happened to those sustainable buffalo?
Sir Chasm - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> What happened to those sustainable buffalo?

People with guns went "foraging".
Arms Cliff - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> And on that same land were a host of other (edible) animals.

But perhaps crucially, very few humans.

I can see what went wrong with the paleo diet now, we got too good at foraging...

dissonance - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
> What a naive comment that misses the bigger picture. The buffalo figure was provided to illustrate how much of one species can be sustainably hosted on one area of the America.

that one area was how approximately what area?
The New NickB - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to dissonance:

Pretty much all of it, one description I have read states that the herds spread from the the Great Slave Lake in northern Canada to Mexico and from Oregon to the Atlantic.
Shani - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to Shani)
>
> What happened to those sustainable buffalo?

'Sustainable' as in the land could sustain that amount. The buffalo were overexploited at least in part by European settlers. The US army and railroader also sought to reduce their numbers.

No talk yet of how the bee is being annihilated by arable farming or the desertification of the 'fertile crescent'?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22893619

http://tinyurl.com/cttagpe
Arms Cliff - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
> [...]
>
>
> No talk yet of how the bee is being annihilated by arable farming or the desertification of the 'fertile crescent'?
>

Is that what you usually expect when you start a topic about an over the hill cyclist eating too much meat?
The New NickB - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Arms Cliff:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
>
> Is that what you usually expect when you start a topic about an over the hill cyclist eating too much meat?

It does seem strange doesn't it.
Shani - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Arms Cliff:
> (In reply to Shani)
> [...]
>
> Is that what you usually expect when you start a topic about an over the hill cyclist eating too much meat?

It certainly wasn't my intention with the OP. mbh introduced the environmental side of things and weaker people like Nick ran with it. Obviously any discussion can get sidetracked.

As for an over the hill cyclist, I am sure that many people on UKC are over 34 year of age and so would find interest in how such an athlete is attempting to maintain health and performance.
The New NickB - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani:

Oh dear, you really don't like it when people question you poorly evidenced little obsession do you.
Shani - on 02 Jul 2013
Another interesting piece (that I have posted before), from Chris Gardner at Stanford Univesity that may interest those of you who are 'over the hill' and looking to 'eat too much meat';

https://humbio.stanford.edu/node/2413
Arms Cliff - on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani: And here's an interesting piece about Wiggins where he says he eats a lot of paleo pasta and caveman croissants http://www.menshealth.co.uk/fitness/sports-training/how-to-win-the-tour-de-france-bradley-wiggins
IainRUK - on 03 Jul 2013
Brendan - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to Shani:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
> [...]
>
> Not sure. Novak Djokavic is one of the few elite sportmen who has adopted a what may well be considered a paleo-style diet as has Bradley Wiggins.

Not true. Djokovic was diagnosed with a wheat allergy and Wiggins says he eats tonnes of carbs.
Shani - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to Brendan: Paleo is not neccessarily low carb.

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