/ Tour De France - News, Views & Spoilers

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cragtyke - on 28 Jun 2013
In order to avoid upsetting those poor souls such as myself who prefer to watch the TDF highlights without knowing the results, can I suggest that this thread be used for news, views and spoilers relating to the race. For a starter does anybody know if David Harmon will be back commentating on Eurosport?
ablackett - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Looks like Froom fell off before the official start. Not a great start!
JLS on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Who's the new voice on the ITV4 commentary team?

(ie not Boardman & Imlac)
JLS on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to JLS:

Matt Rendal?
Dave Kerr - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

No Liggett and Sherwin now. I guess they both lost credibility over the Armstrong affair but particularly Liggett.
Dave Kerr - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:

I'm talking bollocks Liggett is on now. Really can't take that man seriously.
JLS on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:

>"Really can't take that man seriously"

Focus Dave, focus on what's important and let the fluff wash over you. :-)
La Shamster on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

What an absolute disaster at the finish. Surely this stage should be neutralised?
Enty - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to La Shamster:

That was great - proper cycling.

E
La Shamster on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Enty:

You couldn't have written that script!
Enty - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to La Shamster:

That effin bus! What a joke.

Great sprint though - Millar still got it!

E
Alan Taylor - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Enty: I that was a film you would say it was too far fetched
La Shamster on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

good job they had race radio
dale1968 - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke: unbelievable
andymac - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to Enty:



not bad for a 36 year old.

didn`t realise that he was involved in setting up the a Garmin team a few years back.
And I assume must be a director of sorts.

Minneconjou Sioux - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to andymac:

Bet that bus driver wanted to crawl into a hole and die.
Christheclimber - on 29 Jun 2013
In reply to La Shamster:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> You couldn't have written that script!

Never seen anything like it!
tim000 - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke: aussies fined £1400.
wilkesley - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:
> (In reply to andymac)
>
> Bet that bus driver wanted to crawl into a hole and die.

I felt sorry for him. It probably wasn't his fault. It looked as though they had lowered the gantry ready for the finish, but nobody had bothered to tell the driver.
andymac - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Another good day for Millar.

ads.ukclimbing.com
almost sane - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to andymac:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
>
>
> not bad for a 36 year old.
>
> didn`t realise that he was involved in setting up the a Garmin team a few years back.
> And I assume must be a director of sorts.

David Millar is part owner of team Garmin Sharp
andymac - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to almost sane:

I like their cycling gear. a lot.

the chav in me wants the team Hoodie
mark s - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to cragtyke: i think the spectators are getting worse.reminds me of the mid 80's rallying when people would part down the middle.that ended in tragedy.wouldnt be a surprise if something serious happened.

another really close one with a dog,who the f*** has a loose dog near a bike race?
JLS on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to mark s:

>"who the f*** has a loose dog near a bike race?"

That's the first time my dog has done that. It's normally very well behaved.
biped - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to mark s:

It's Corsica. The Corsicans make The French look like a nation of frigid rulebook obsessives.

Dogs, or rather their owners, are occasionally an issue on The Tour. Mind last year, Philippe Gilbert did a superman over a huge Newfoundland/Patou type thing that had wandered out into the peloton.
almost sane - on 30 Jun 2013
In reply to mark s:
>
> another really close one with a dog,who the f*** has a loose dog near a bike race?

If you listened really closely to the Eurosport coverage, you could hear cries of "Fenton!"
Kipper - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to almost sane:
> (In reply to mark s)
> [...]
>
> If you listened really closely to the Eurosport coverage, you could hear cries of "Fenton!"

Very likely, as they didn't even seem able to get the correct winner of Today's stage during the commentary.

Eurosport have got much better over the years but they still often give the impression that the commentators are sitting in their bedroom watching the same feed as the viewer on their 14" TV and manage to comment on something only once they've been prodded by their mum who's just walked in to check that they're OK. Only MotorsTV seem to regularly surpass them.
The New NickB - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to Kipper:

ITV4 and the Team Sky twitter feed made the same mistake, it seems they were all basing it on Race Radio, which originally got it wrong.
a concerned citizen - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to biped: He also had to be restrained from administering a short course on dog handling to the owner of said dog.
johncoxmysteriously - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

You'd think the French would have introduced a law similar to ours whereby race officials could shoot dogs seen off lead near the race. It would presumably solve this problem. It's all very amusing on youtube, but wasn't a rider killed in the 80's by some cretin with a dog like this?

jcm
JLS on 01 Jul 2013
kevin stephens - on 01 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
Missed ITV4 highlights, no posts on this thread, guess I didn't miss much?
dale1968 - on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to kevin stephens: Simon Gerrans out-sprinted Sagan by a small margin
graeme jackson - on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to kevin stephens:
There was a fat beardy bloke in a red leotard and tutu chasing the koM up a hill. Not much else going on.
JLS on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

So Team Time Trial today.

Millar's been gunning for the yellow jersey since his good sprint on stage one. He's looking good for it, as his Garmin team is full of guys with solid form and well versed in the dicipline.

But this, so far, hasn't been a Tour to follow the planned script so we can expect Garmin to wipe-out on the first corner and Omega Pharma to proplel unheralded Michal Kwiatkowski into yellow.

So who's your bet to win the TTT?
GrahamD - on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:

For the ignoramuses amongst us, in the team TT, does the whole team get the time of the 5th rider (assuming they don't time out) ?
Calder - on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD: If they're together, yes. Any stragglers get their own time.
JLS on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

No, if guys are dropped they get their own time. Ie 1 to 5 get the 5th mans time, 6 to 9 get their own time which will be same as 5th man if they've not been dropped or not let a one second time gap open in the final dash for the line.
betamonkey - on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
Not that it is likely, but what happens if only 4 make it to the line together?

For the TTT stage they'd get the time of the 5th (dropped) rider, but for individual classification?
JLS on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to betamonkey:

>"for individual classification?"

It's going to be the time of 5th rider too.

So 4 riders are never going to leave a 5th man behind. Occasionally you might see the 5th man dropped if the final charge for the line which I suppose could result in a lost second or two.

More interesting question might be what if only 4 riders manage to finish?

I'm guessing it would be pretty exceptional for a team to lose 5 riders so early in the Tour and the organisers would probably allow them to continue with time and points penalties. (Hence the TTT is generally one of the early stages)
betamonkey - on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
I expect Sky, Movistar, Garmin, Omega-Pharma and BMC to all put in good performances, probably all within 30 seconds of each other. Don't expect that Saxo will be far off, but wouldn't expect them to win.

From a British point of view, I'd like to Millar take yellow - he always gives a good interview. From a Froome-to-win perspective, I'd like to see Saxo (Roche) or BMC (Evans) take the win and have to do the chasing for the next few days...

JLS on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to betamonkey:

GreenEdge! Who'd a thunk it?
Tony the Blade on 02 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:

Did they get their bus driver to take a stage? ;-)

Geraint Thomas AMAZING

betamonkey - on 03 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
Predictions for today? Bit of a lumpy one, so could shed a lot of the sprinters if the pace is high. Smart money would be on Sagan?
JLS on 03 Jul 2013
In reply to betamonkey:

A day for Sylvain Chavanel I think.
kevin stephens - on 03 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
Nice shot of the Callanques crags on the highlights this evening
Christheclimber - on 03 Jul 2013
In reply to kevin stephens:

A good win for Cav and the Calanques looked great, wish I was there.
JLS on 03 Jul 2013
In reply to Christheclimber:

Indeed. If he continues to get lead-outs like that he'll be looking at winning a barrow load of stages.

Good sprint from Boassan-Hagen too.
balmybaldwin - on 04 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Looks liek it'll be an interesting tactical battle out on the road today:

"According to meteorologists, the peloton can expect strong cross-winds, including a northerly Mistral with gusts up to 60/70km/h between km 50 and km 140. That augers for the peloton to be in a constant fight for position and as they well-know, not everyone can be up front and out of danger"
mark s - on 04 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: have people been throwing tacks on the road again?
do they give reasons for doing this or is it just the french been french
balmybaldwin - on 04 Jul 2013
In reply to mark s:

Who says it's the French? But yes, reports of tacks being found in punctured wheels after a spate of them at 60KM mark yesterday.

I wonder if we'll start seeing a tractor sweeping the road ahead of the peleton in the next few years - it's very sad that people feel the need to do this.

I'm not sure if it's a malicous thing against cycling in general, or some short sighted attempt to spice up the race, or perhaps a deliberate attempt to attack a particular team (unsuccessful by the looks of it).

As far as I can imagine, this can only be being done by someone at the side of the road as the race comes past rather than a night before type thing - which means the perpetrators are making quite an effort to do this.
balmybaldwin - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

So first stage in the mountains today.... are sky going to boss it or will contador et al be able to disrupt and get some time on Froome?
malk - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin: Quintana's flying up those hills..
malk - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply: no yellow jersey for froome..
Rampikino - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:
> In reply: no yellow jersey for froome..

You sure about that?
nrhardy - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino: looks like Bertie needs a steak!
malk - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino: and Contador riding forward on his saddle- he's out of it..
malk - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
> You sure about that?

amazing how things change..

Rampikino - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:

First the Lions, then Froome. Happy day!
abr1966 - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to malk: bloody awesome day.....so impressive! Froome 1'45 on contador...a great day!
dale1968 - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to abr1966: impressive ride by Froome!
balmybaldwin - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Great ride by froome, porte and kenuech(sp?)

Having said that, I hope theres a bit more competition tomorrow and in the Alps, and its not all over.

Contador doesnt look like he should be leading his team at the moment.

Chris the Tall - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:
The bad news is that Pierre Roland is back in the polka dot onesie.

As it looks like Sky have the race sewn up already, maybe they will try and ensure Porte or Kennaugh gets that prize
Christheclimber - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Surprised with Schlek and Contador, expected more. Froome and Skye were very strong.
Pyreneenemec - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Contador was told : 'if you don't eat your meat, you can't win the Tour. How can you win the Tour if you don't eat your meat'.
Enty - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
> The bad news is that Pierre Roland is back in the polka dot onesie.
>
>

Should be thrown off the race for that.

E
JLS on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

I heard he bonked (or as runners call it, hit the wall).
Kipper - on 06 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> The bad news is that Pierre Roland is back in the polka dot onesie.
>

Only wearing it on behalf of someone else surely?
malk - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to dale1968:
> (In reply to abr1966) impressive ride by Froome!

to say the least!

The 23:14 ascent of Ax-3-Domaines puts Froome in third on the all-time list for the climb, behind only Laiseka and Armstrong in 2001. The VAM of 1715 m/h converts to a power output of 6.3 W/kg (Ferrari method) and about 6.5 W/kg with other models (CPL, rst)

http://www.sportsscientists.com/

felt - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:

Look, are you insinuating something?
Rampikino - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to felt:

I'm not sure he is.

But Froome said plenty.
felt - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino:

I disagree. He's the master of the sly dig. Besides, it's a quote from yesteryear that he'll doubtless recognise.
Pyreneenemec - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to everyone :

I've just seen France TV's star sports presenter, Gerald Holz asking Christopher Froome 'les yeux dans les yeux' if he had taken any illicit drugs to achieve his current level of success. Pretty poor show if you ask me, just after presenting the new Yellow Jersey.

Shame on you Gerald !

felt - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Yes, the guy's pretty wooden.
Liam M - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Does anyone know what happened to Kiriyenka? He wouldn't be my first suggestion for a rider who'd be the only one outside the time limit.
Mikkel - on 07 Jul 2013


Have Bjarne been kicked out for being a cheat yet?
balmybaldwin - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
> The bad news is that Pierre Roland is back in the polka dot onesie.
>


Why is he wearing that? It looks awful. Isnt it supposed to be a jersey?

Great days racing, caught a bit at the start live, and highlights missed out climbs 2&3, was a bit of a surprise that the others didnt manage to capitalise on froome getting isolated so early. Did they all run out of steam in the middle?
balmybaldwin - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:
> (In reply to dale1968)
> [...]
>
> to say the least!
>
> The 23:14 ascent of Ax-3-Domaines puts Froome in third on the all-time list for the climb, behind only Laiseka and Armstrong in 2001. The VAM of 1715 m/h converts to a power output of 6.3 W/kg (Ferrari method) and about 6.5 W/kg with other models (CPL, rst)
>
> http://www.sportsscientists.com/


I hope you are wrong. It has to be said there were some remarkable recoveries today from others who looked totally beaten yesterday.

Chris the Tall - on 07 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:
> (In reply to dale1968)
> [...]
>
> to say the least!
>
> The 23:14 ascent of Ax-3-Domaines puts Froome in third on the all-time list for the climb, behind only Laiseka and Armstrong in 2001. The VAM of 1715 m/h converts to a power output of 6.3 W/kg (Ferrari method) and about 6.5 W/kg with other models (CPL, rst)
>
> http://www.sportsscientists.com/

The Sky argument is that during the EPO era coaches got lazy. Or just that coaching in cycling was years behind other sports, particularly swimming, and that sky were able to exploit this gap by taking a different approach.

Either way, saying there is a certain performance threshold which can only be reached by doping, because previously it had only been reached by known dopers, is nonsense. All sports have moved on in the last 12.

Furthermore, the comparisons are irrelevant because the climb came in a completely stage in the race. The big advantage EPO gave was in recovery, not in the first big climb of the tour.
Bob Hughes - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

So just when we thought the Tour was tied up and boring it gets thrown wide open. What a stage yesterday!

What's the UKC verdict? Has Sky blown their stack or will we seen them back on form after a rest day? Bit of a wasted opportunity from Movistar? Or all part of the plan to break-up the Sky team. And Quintana is clearly a nutcase!
ads.ukclimbing.com
Rampikino - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Honestly?

I think they tried to break him and failed badly yesterday.

The Sky team can rest and keep Froome in Yellow until the Alps and he will have a massive psychological advantage when he gets there.
Liam Brown - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Movistar looked good, and it does look relatively interesting but I think the above is probably correct. Still at least people can stop worrying it will be a dry controlled affair.

What happened to Porte was remarkable but his form throughout the season suggests it is not likely to be a regular occurence in the next two weeks and Froome is clearly the strongest rider. I think how Thomas' comes together over the next week could be interesting.

Teams like BMC and Garmin who theoretically have the riders to push in the same way as Movistar don't seem to be on it as complete teams, although some of them will pull out soem great results I'd imagine.

I'm really excited by Quintana. Judging by the way he did sky over earlier in the season he's got a good time trial in him as well.

Does anyone know how many riders the Columbians get for the world championships? On a hilly course Henao, Uran, Quintana and Betancur is an exciting group.
Toby_W on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Amazing, sky made a play on the first day in the mountains when a lot of people often struggle and it paid dividends for them and caught the other teams on the hop. It was great to watch as well rather than the normal twitchy procession of the contenders all in a bunch watching each other until the last mountain day. Next day the sky team were knackered after their effort but that seems to have lit a fire under a few of the other teams which made for an exciting day. Considering riders often take a few mtn stages to really find the form I hope sky recover enough to protect Froome but whether they do or don't I hope there will be some lively riding from all the teams. While Sagen deserves the green on present form I hope he gets a flat so their is some doubt for a few more sprint stages over it.

Cheers

Toby
Bob Hughes - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino: Yeah they really needed to put some time into him yesterday. He can expect to take a few more seconds out of them on Wednesday's Time Trial too.

On the other hand he is really out on his own now. No other Sky riders for another 18 minutes whereas Movistar, Belkin and Saxo have all got 2 each within 2 minutes of the yellow jersey.
Minneconjou Sioux - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Lets not forget Dan Martin's excellent stage win. Well done Dan.

As it is, I think Sky will bounce back and with no one else in their team in contention it bodes well for Froome as the can protect him all the way.
Bob Hughes - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux: yes, great ride by Dan Martin.
Chris the Tall - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:
> (In reply to Bob Hughes)
>
> Lets not forget Dan Martin's excellent stage win. Well done Dan.
>

Did you see the tweet from Vaughters ?

"We need a panda, now. Anyone? Panda! Hurry the F up with the Panda!"

(see http://bikesandbidons.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/lbl-panda-running.png )

> As it is, I think Sky will bounce back and with no one else in their team in contention it bodes well for Froome as the can protect him all the way.

I could see Froome extending his lead to 5 or 6 minutes and still losing it in the last 3 days. I still have a feeling that Contador might be playing a long game
Bob Hughes - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to Minneconjou Sioux)
> [...]
>
> I could see Froome extending his lead to 5 or 6 minutes and still losing it in the last 3 days. I still have a feeling that Contador might be playing a long game

Definitely looks that way from his comments in Cycling News. Or he might be bluffing...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-buoyed-by-aggressive-tour-de-france-stage

Although only Nairo Quintana attacked – several times in fact – Contador was able to follow Froome as the British rider was forced to chase.

In the end Contador finished with the main group of overall contenders with strong support from Roman Kreuziger and Michael Rogers.

"Today was a very difficult day because we started very fast and the peloton broke into a number of different parts," Contador told Cyclingnews as he munched through a sandwich after showering at the finish.

"However I’m happy because the team is very strong and I felt a lot better than yesterday, which was a very bad day for me."

"Okay, at the final there weren’t many changes, although Richie was dropped and Froome was alone in the stage. The most important thing now is that I recover well, give 100 per cent in the two time trials and then I hope that in the last week, because the last week is always the best week for me in the grand tours, that I feel better and that I’m able to ride better in the GC."

On the final climb, with Quintana jabbing away at Froome’s reserves Contador took a defence guard, gluing himself to the Sky rider’s wheel.

"I concentrated on Froome on the last climb and I think it was better to wait for another day because it was 30 kilometres to the finish from the top of the last climb. That’s a long distance and I need my power for the next time trial."

Asked if he could still come from behind and win the race, Contador responded buoyantly, clearly motivated after a stage that saw Sky on the ropes.

"The race isn’t finished. Of course Froome is very strong, and also in the time trials, but the race finishes in Paris."
niallk on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to Minneconjou Sioux)
> [...]
>
> Did you see the tweet from Vaughters ?
>
> "We need a panda, now. Anyone? Panda! Hurry the F up with the Panda!"
>
> (see http://bikesandbidons.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/lbl-panda-running.png )
>
Thanks for that - brilliant. I saw Vaughters tweet and wondered what on earth he was blethering about. I don't remember seeing that in the live LBL coverage though.


> I could see Froome extending his lead to 5 or 6 minutes and still losing it in the last 3 days. I still have a feeling that Contador might be playing a long game.

Whilst part of me can see Froome blowing a decent lead on one particularly bad day as a distinct possibility, I'm not sure that previous form would suggest that. At last year's Tour and the 2011 Vuelta he was strong throught. It happened in the 2012 Vuelta to an extent but that's not really a fair comparison.

Bob Hughes - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to niallk:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
> [...]
> Whilst part of me can see Froome blowing a decent lead on one particularly bad day as a distinct possibility, I'm not sure that previous form would suggest that. At last year's Tour and the 2011 Vuelta he was strong throught. It happened in the 2012 Vuelta to an extent but that's not really a fair comparison.

I can see Movistar using Quintana to wear Froome down leaving it open for Valverde.
Chris the Tall - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:
> (In reply to niallk)
> [...]
>
> I can see Movistar using Quintana to wear Froome down leaving it open for Valverde.

I can also see Valverde wearing Froome down to leave it open for Bertie.

Twice up Alpe d'Huez will be brutal, but even if Froome gets through it unscathed it's a question of what damage will be done to the team. Will they be able to give him any support him on the next two days ? Their collapse yesterday was remarkable - but maybe this is what clean racing looks like.

Toby_W on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: all depends on if it was a beef sandwich he was munching on?

Toby
Pyreneenemec - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Toby_W:

Joking apart, is a totally clean Tour really possible ?

I know it's harsh, but Contador should never have been allowed to return to professional cycling.


malk - on 08 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: if it's legal- do it (never mind ethics and a level playing field). seems like Sky and UK plc (tax avoidance etc) have a head start in this dubious activity ..
Bob Hughes - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: it will be interesting to see what kind of form Sky and Movistar are in today. But mainly a day for the sprinters. Cav will be looking for another stage win.
Sir Chasm - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec) if it's legal- do it (never mind ethics and a level playing field). seems like Sky and UK plc (tax avoidance etc) have a head start in this dubious activity ..

What dubious activity are Sky participating in?
Chris the Tall - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

> I know it's harsh, but Contador should never have been allowed to return to professional cycling.

Many would argue that ex-dopers play a really important part in cleaning up the sport - people like Vaughters and Millar who understand the pressure riders are put under by their teams.

Then again there is the question of whether Contador is an ex-doper.

I just hope that he and Valverde are being targeted by random tests - so far both will have avoided the mandatory ones by avoiding a high stage finish or the yellow jersey.

As to Sky being clean, I suspect McQuaid will be putting the same amount of effort into finding evidence against them as he did in trying to stop the evidence against Armstrong coming out - it's his best hope of discrediting Cookson.
Toby_W on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Mmm I don't know but we should strive for it and I agree Contador is an un-repentant, serial doper which is a shame as he is also a brilliant rider even though I've never warmed to him as a rider.

Doping is very sad, similar to photoshop. You used to see an amazing photo now you see an amazing photo and wonder if it's been altered. I have friends who can run a 1.17 half marathon with next to no training and having not been on their bike all year can ride for a week and then keep up with me in the Pyrenees over the Tourmalet. He has skinny legs like you wouldn't believe.

Sky clean? I hope/think so, I'll choose to believe so until I see something from a scientist or lab tech or lab.

Cheers

Toby
malk - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
>
> What dubious activity are Sky participating in?

duh- it's a secret;)
alan1961 - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: On Saturdays stage, I found the comments of Liggett and Sherwin to be very naïve when they said that Contador wasn't the climber he used to be!!! I wonder why!!!!
ads.ukclimbing.com
Chris the Tall - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to alan1961:
Listening to 5Live, Dan Lloyd about to pass comment on Valverde when he was suspiciously interrupted by a trumpet !

I think that might be the end of Cav's tour. Amazing he didn't bring down others to be honest but it did look very much like a deliberate shove and, if so, he will be disqualified I think.

Alan
Mike Highbury - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:
>
> I think that might be the end of Cav's tour. Amazing he didn't bring down others to be honest but it did look very much like a deliberate shove and, if so, he will be disqualified I think.
>
> Alan

Why? Didn't look so bad to me.

Perhaps we need a sweepstake.
Pyreneenemec - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Mike Highbury:

Hate to say this, but Cavendish should be disqualified- a deliberate and nasty action.
malk - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Mike Highbury: watch it head on and imagine he's spanish..
In reply to Mike Highbury:

On the overhead you can see the other guy does swing towards him, but Cav definitely pushes back harder.
Clint86 - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH: Yes it looked deliberate and unnecessary.
malk - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Clint86: seems like UKC has decided. shall we wait for the jury?
Chris the Tall - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:
> (In reply to Clint86) seems like UKC has decided. shall we wait for the jury?

Seems that Cav stays in and rightly so

This show that Veelers makes the move to his right as Cav is going past him, and moving slightly to his left as he starts to accelerate.

http://twitpic.com/d1qi89/full

However what it doesn't show is that it is Veelers second move to the right - a second before he was a good couple of feet to the left of the white line
Enty - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:
> (In reply to Mike Highbury)
>
> On the overhead you can see the other guy does swing towards him, but Cav definitely pushes back harder.

Just like shoulder to shoulder in footy for a 50-50 ball. Unfortunately it's not on grass at 15mph. The riders know that.

Cav should stay.

E
Pyreneenemec - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

You're only saying that because it's Cavandish !

It was deliberate, there should be some penalty or such actions will become routine !
Enty - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> You're only saying that because it's Cavandish !
>
> It was deliberate, there should be some penalty or such actions will become routine !

I'm not. I don't like him.

E
Enty - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

Next thing they'll be making it a bloody non-contact sport.

E
MikeTS - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

According to the official TdF site review of today's race
'Tom Veelers, crashed; while he didn't bring down any other riders, he forced riders like Goss (OGE) and Cavendish (OPQ) to take evasive action'
Mooncat - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

He was a blocker to interrupt Cav's sprint, Cav went a bit OTT but should be ok.
Enty - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Mooncat:
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH)
>
> He was a blocker to interrupt Cav's sprint, Cav went a bit OTT but should be ok.

Yep. It happens in chipper races too.

See this photo here:
http://m.flickr.com/#/photos/elcap2011/9250786636/sizes/m/

That's me on the right and my mate Bruno on the left. 150m back I'd just blocked the guy in the middle so Bruno could win. Miraculously I got second. Luckily the guy didn't have the temperament or strength of Cav to get me out of the way. We all survived and a 1-2 for USC Vaison ;-)

E
Wanderer100 - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: I cant believe the rubbish being spouted about this. The guy was trying to slow Cav down by blocking him and got his just desserts. People want him disqualified! Really? Come on people, get behind him, he's a winner and deserves better than this.
balmybaldwin - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:

I think it looks quite bad, especially from the front, but I think it is cav reacting to the rider coming across.

it certainly wasn't clean, but i don't think it's a disqual. I think the jury have said if he had one he would have been relegated, but not disqualified
balmybaldwin - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:


won - sorry!
Aly - on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to Mike Highbury)
>
> Hate to say this, but Cavendish should be disqualified- a deliberate and nasty action.

You really think so? I saw that as a 50-50 racing incident, especially as Veelers peels off left, then swings back right whilst the finish swings left. The reason it looks bad on the replay is because Cav is bracing for the impact, whilst Veelers has his head down so gets clattered.

If you want an example of dangerous sprinting/blocking then remember Ferrari in the Giro last year (which he didn't get DQ'd for) or Renshaw blocking Farrar after the 'headbutt' incident in 2010.
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JLS on 09 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:

Didn't look like a winner today. Despite what he said, it looked like he couldn't hold Stegman's wheel. I'm not sure if he's brought his good legs to this Tour. Hopefully he'll pick up... if he doesn't get himself disqualified first.
JLS on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Aly:

>"because Cav is bracing for the impact"

...and making sure he got his bracing in first :)
Minneconjou Sioux - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to Mike Highbury)
>
> Hate to say this, but Cavendish should be disqualified- a deliberate and nasty action.

Nobody died and the guy he took out had already bailed and should have got the eff out of the way especially as he knew the whole world was about to sprint past him.
Enty - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Minneconjou Sioux:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec)
> [...]
>
> Nobody died and the guy he took out had already bailed and should have got the eff out of the way especially as he knew the whole world was about to sprint past him.

He's not going to get out of the way with a team mate 100m from a win and Cav just off his shoulder - he blocked him and paid the price.

E

Bob Hughes - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to thread:

So, Froome puts a bit of time into Contador / Valverde / Quintana today and then nothing much happens til Mt Ventoux?
Pyreneenemec - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Aly:

Cavendish's action was well OTT. Had he won, it would have been correct to relegate him.

There is also the question of making cycling and The Tour in particular, credible, in the eyes of the public. This was reinforced very recently with the fall of the immensely popular Laurent Jalabert.
Clint86 - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: I agree. I didn't realise it was a DQ offence. A bit of relegation would be sufficient.
Sir Chasm - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: You're equating doping with a bit of argy-bargy in the sprint?
Pyreneenemec - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec) You're equating doping with a bit of argy-bargy in the sprint?

The Tour is BIG money. It doesn't exist simply to satisfy those who are interested in or participate in the sport. Bad decisions can have big repercussions.


It would be interesting to hear what the Dutch think about the Cavendish incident ?


Sir Chasm - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: Jalabert = cheating. Cavendish/Veelers = part of racing. And crashes make for good tv, I doubt "the Tour" will be very concerned.
Bob Hughes - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to Sir Chasm)
> [...]
>
> It would be interesting to hear what the Dutch think about the Cavendish incident ?

Well, not exactly Dutch but Veelers's team mate, Kittel said: "I saw the crash on video and it was very unlucky that they bumped into each other," Kittel told a news conference.

"Tom was going hard from doing the lead-out, Cavendish tried to pass him on the right and the handlebars touched each other and Tom lost control and crashed on the ground.

"I cannot imagine that it was on purpose because it was a very hectic situation and it was the last moment of the sprint. Sometimes that is something that just happens."
Chris the Tall - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
Reports that spectators are booing Cav in todays TT. More significantly someone threw a bottle of urine at him - utterly disgraceful, especially as he was (rightly) exonerated for any part in the crash.

Also reports that Renshaw will sign for OPQS in 2014
Pyreneenemec - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

He wasn't totally responsible, that is hardly an exoneration and certainly not rightly !

I'd probably boo him myself !
SteveRi - on 10 Jul 2013
Lost his lead out man, tucked in behind the Veelers and Kittel. Once Veelers has done his job he should get out of the way. What actually happens is he turns around, sees Cav and lets himself drift that way to block him. Cavendish gives what he gets. Racing.
Dangerous Dave - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to SteveRi: Cav gets the yellow jersey! http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23251598
Tricky Dicky - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Dangerous Dave:
Cav's post race interview should be interesting..........
Enty - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to SteveRi:
> Lost his lead out man, tucked in behind the Veelers and Kittel. Once Veelers has done his job he should get out of the way. What actually happens is he turns around, sees Cav and lets himself drift that way to block him. Cavendish gives what he gets. Racing.

Perfect description.

E
tony on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to anyone who knows:

Is two time trials in the first ten days unusual?
Chris the Tall - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to tony:
Not as unusual as not having a prologue, or that the final TT comes so early.

The thing about the tour is that they always change things round. I'm amazed that we haven't seen a repeat of the TT on the final day - worked well in 89
balmybaldwin - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

This doesnt bode well for a competitive tour (Froome fastest through checkpoints 1&2)
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mikehike on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
Agreed
Also mentioned earlier Cav was braced and ready for impact Veelers not. Plus if Veelers had not been on white Paint he may not have gone down.
Then it would have just been a bit push and shove, which is all Cav gave (push and shove).

Its not like Cav did... http://twitpic.com/crs0rn
Chris the Tall - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:
Amazed that people think this is done and dusted, when we saw on Sunday how vulnerable Sky were in the mountains. Froome should be fine on Ventoux and will probably extend his lead to over 5 minutes in the next TT, but then could lose it in those final 3 days in the Alps.

And that's not even taking into account certain Spaniards ability to recover well.
highcamp - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:

In the last 2 decades of legitimate specialization within cycling, it's very suspect to have the same person dominate in the mountains AND challenge the TT world champion in time trials (a 3x WC, no less). Contador did it, Armstrong did it (Ulrich and Indurain displayed the phenomena in opposite). Coupled with Froome's non-existant palmares (of note) as a junior or neo-pro, there is a host of reasons to doubt what is going on here.

Believe me, I want to believe in a clean Tour as much as anyone. But when a team dominates so (to a level where they can only be compared to US Postal) and a rider comes out of nowhere (absolutely nowhere prior to 2011 Vuelta) to dominate in the mountains AND the TT, you have to be objective in your look at the situation.

tony on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:

> Coupled with Froome's non-existant palmares (of note) as a junior

Is it possible that might have something to do with the fact that he was riding in Africa until he was 22?
John Rushby - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:

They haven't dominated though. I stood at the side of the road Saturday and saw a strong ride but also the likes of Bertie and Valv Piti I unable to gap him.

On the Sunday I saw a blowing and knackered Team Sky. Froome kept the jersey because nobody else dared to attack, and more to point, his main competitors were riding clean, so unable to dominate like they may have done in the last.
Chris the Tall - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:
Others might suggest that the fact he didn't come up through the traditional route of European amateur and semi-pro teams is a good sign.

I don't believe Froome could dope without Brailsford's knowledge, so if he is doping then it means that Wiggins did last year as well. And so did all of Britain's cyclists in the last 3 or 4 Olympics, where they have achieved similar dominance. This would not be comparable to what US postal did, it would be a whole new level above it. And of course getting their man to head up the UCI would be the final act of supremacy, far better than such a crude tactic as bribery.
Clint86 - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: I don't think people think its done and dusted, but that Froome is doing as well as he could be expected to up until now.
Quiddity - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

The thing is, if you have built up an advantage over other teams in applying systematic and scientific principles to your training and technology, as British Cycling/Sky have, the last thing you want to do is to kick off a doping arms race. One reason I believe Sky are clean is that it is in their interest - they are better positioned to maintain a competitive advantage if the whole of the peloton is clean.
Wanderer100 - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Clint86: Agreed, anyway the forthcoming races in the Alps will determine this years winner same as most other years but with a 3 minute plus advantage Froome is obviously the man to beat.
jfw - on 10 Jul 2013
Froome also had a parasite that was making his performance inconsistant - until it was picked up on and sorted out.
Guy - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to jfw: That's a bit harsh on Wiggins isn't it? ;-)
Bob Hughes - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:

+1

everybody saw how Sky fell apart on Sunday so i reckon their plan will be tire out the others, isolate Froome and then attack! attack! attack!

Hope so anyway - it'll make for a better race
stewieatb on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Guy:
> (In reply to jfw) That's a bit harsh on Wiggins isn't it? ;-)

Zing!
Enty - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to Guy:
> (In reply to jfw) That's a bit harsh on Wiggins isn't it? ;-)

Yay! well done that man!

E
stewieatb on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Does anyone know how the double ascent of the Alpe d'Huez has been achieved? I thought it was a dead end at a ski resort, but maybe that's changed recently?
Enty - on 10 Jul 2013
In reply to stewieatb:

Always been possible as a loop ride over the Col de Sarenne. Shit road though. Did it last week.
There could actually be some protests as its a protected area and the residents campaigned to not get the road fully resurfaced even though Alp d'Huez councel tried to do it.

E
jfw - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to stewieatb:

Zing indeed - but I reckon what Sky are missing this year is the strength of a super domestique (as Froome was last year, as Wiggo should have been this year).

I thought maybe Richie Port would be the guy - but isn't looking like it after the other day (unless it was a one off)
HughM - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:
> (In reply to Wanderer100)
>
> everybody saw how Sky fell apart on Sunday so i reckon their plan will be tire out the others, isolate Froome and then attack! attack! attack!

Even if people attack, Froome has got such a cushion that he'll probably still be ok. Imagine if Contador suddenly finds his pre-ban legs and goes on the attack. Froome can ride at a steady pace and keep him within a minute or two, without risking his GC position. Valverde and Mollema are going to have to start chasing long before that otherwise they risk their own GC positions - allowing Froome to follow their wheels.

My prediction is that the third week is so hard that no one in the top 10 (except Quintana) will really attack for fear of blowing up the next day. Everyone will be racing to protect their current GC position, rather than to overtake Froome. Meanwhile Froome will gain even more time on Ventoux (although Schleck or D Martin will win) and the second TT.
GrahamD - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Any news on how Gerraint Thomas is fairing ? how much of a stint does anyone think he'll be able to put in if at all ?
dale1968 - on 11 Jul 2013
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nniff - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

It could all go wrong - if you're having a bad day then there's time to be made up - interesting stat from the other day is that if someone's struggling you can take a minute per km in the mountains or a minute per 10km on the flat. Witness Richie Porte going backwards the other day.

Anyway, now that I've seen how it's done, I'm doing a time trial tonight - and it will be even less pretty. Just so long as someone doesn't throw a jar of piss over me....... GS/438
Chris Harris - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
> Reports that spectators are booing Cav in todays TT. More significantly someone threw a bottle of urine at him - utterly disgraceful, especially as he was (rightly) exonerated for any part in the crash.


I couldn't help noting the comments by his team manager, saying that Cav originally thought it was water, but then realised what it was by the taste.

This can only mean that Cav has form in the field of piss drinking....

Chris the Tall - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris Harris:
From Twitter:

Chris Froome condemns cycling fan for throwing urine at Mark Cavendish: "It leaves a nasty taste in the mouth"
ripper - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: I don't know why he's complaining - he got to wear yellow at Le Tour....
GrahamD - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to dale1968:

Thanks for that. I'm not sure whether it tells me whether he's likely to be able to take turns up front or not ?
Deviant - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to Chris Harris)
> From Twitter:
>
> Chris Froome condemns cycling fan for throwing urine at Mark Cavendish: "It leaves a nasty taste in the mouth"

Sure does, there's nothing worse than sucking an unwashed cock !

dale1968 - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:He seems quite chipper, not so sure that would be the case if his life was hell on a stick...
GrahamD - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to dale1968:

Just wondered whether they'd put him up front to start with on a big climb ?
Chris the Tall - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
Man bites dog...again
Chris Harris - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

I can see the headlines now.

"Cav pissed on in final sprint"
Bob Hughes - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris Harris: very good
balmybaldwin - on 11 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:


Bit of a turn up for the books today. Wonder if it'll happen again tomorrow?
carnie - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Quiddity: do you really think that all these other million euro teams do not apply science and systematic principals to there training? wake and smell the coffee
carnie - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the

not sure I agree that just because one rider dopes another does however I do believe tat that sky are inherently flawed and i certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility that wiggins doped in one way or another.
carnie - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp: someone speaks sense re pro cycling on ukc!
carnie - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH: Really!
carnie - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: really what for the guy moved off his line then cav jumped for the wheel it's racing!
carnie - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: that's not a proper chipper for a start it's not at eastway!
carnie - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to John Rushby: Contador, Valverde et al clean ??? maybe less juiced than previously but come on, evans managed 3rd in the giro despite di luca and santambrogio being charged up to the eyeballs on epo and yet where is he in the tour????
SteveRi - on 12 Jul 2013
I watched some of the Cavendish profile on ITV4 last night, it struck how *hungry* he was a few years ago, his inner beast simply wouldn't allow anyone to come past him. Last night he looked a little bit surprised to be taken on the line. He's still one of the fastest people in the universe and I'm dying to see him back on top.
HIGHTOWER - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Turning into a very interesting day.......
Calder - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to HIGHTOWER: Hat's off to Cav, still in the front group. Go on lad...
Bob Hughes - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to HIGHTOWER: so, boring flat transition stage, eh? Valverde loses 8minutes and Contador puts 60 seconds into Froome. Goes to show how vulnerable Froome is without the Sky Train. Richie Porte dropped off as weel - maybe to save himself for the hills? Sky lacking a lot of firepower.
Bob Hughes - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Calder: BOOM! Stage win for Cav! He'll be a happy chap tonight
dale1968 - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes: 25 wins to cav, a great record
HIGHTOWER - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:

Has sending a strong team to the Giro spread Sky too thin for the Tour?
Chris the Tall - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
Great day for Cav but even better for Bert - Froome will be kicking himself that he let them get away, but it shows just how weak Sky are this year. Micheal Rogers must be well pleased to give them a kicking !

Will Bert take yellow on Ventoux on Sunday, or will he avoid it for as long as possible.

Such a piti that valv is out of the running !
Mr Fuller on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to HIGHTOWER: I think having a rider with a broken pelvis and another in the hospital doesn't help...
HIGHTOWER - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Mr Fuller:

True, but they lost one to a broken leg last year.
Liam M - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to carnie:
> (In reply to Quiddity) do you really think that all these other million euro teams do not apply science and systematic principals to there training? wake and smell the coffee

As an article in Cycling Weekly put it last week, some of the Europecar riders didn't know whether they were riding the Tour until about a week before it started. They French nationals were effectively used as a selection race.

Conversely, most Sky riders knew reasonably well what there season would be like from early in the year, and so could focus and peak appropriately.

Until recently some pro teams didn't even employ coaches. It's probably not difficult to dominate when that is the attitude of the opposition teams. Their dominance is starting to fade slightly now other teams are using similar long term strategies.

kevin stephens - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to cragtyke)

>
> Will Bert take yellow on Ventoux on Sunday, or will he avoid it for as long as possible.
>
I'm not so sure, it will be interesting to see how much today's break away took out of Bertie and other contenders in these days of tighter drug controls. GC contenders and their teams will be taking it especially easy tomorrow. A good day for large breakaway to contest stage win tomorrow. Will that include Cav?

Talius Brute - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

What a great day. Awesome racing.
Bob Hughes - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to HIGHTOWER:
> (In reply to Bob Hughes)
>
> Has sending a strong team to the Giro spread Sky too thin for the Tour?

They're definitely looking weak this year. Lacking a super domestique and every time any one of them puts in a big day hey're destroyed the next day, - except Froome.
Wanderer100 - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Talius Brute:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> What a great day. Awesome racing.

Cav rode the perfect race today and fully deserved his win. 3 more to match Hinaults record but I think he will struggle to ever get past Mercks record. Froome will be a worried man tonight. Time will tell but Berty is starting to look good although after his showing in the Pyrenees he's still got a long way to go to get the maillot jeune

Chris the Tall - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:
To be fair to sky, Porte looked in better shape pre-tour than Froome did last year, and this line up did well in the Dauphine. Plus Sky were criticised for lack of Brits in their Giro team, which may have played a part.

But even given the extra workload due to elimination, withdrawal and injuries, I reckon something is up - Has anyone seen Lopez ? Obviously we won't find out till the end of the tour, but maybe a virus ? Obviously cynics would suggest "food poisoning" a la PDM
JLS on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:

Just when you think the gods had deserted Cav his (self made?) luck takes a turn for the better.

I'm sure he'll never forget that win. Hopefully it raises his spirits and he can muster up enough belief for the Paris stage. After the last couple of days he'd looked down and out.

Anyone think he will win the final stage? Kittle looks faster, Griepel's blowing hot and cold.
Wanderer100 - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to Wanderer100
>
> Anyone think he will win the final stage? Kittle looks faster, Griepel's blowing hot and cold.

I hope he will. Hopefully Kittels legs will have gone by then assuming he makes it through the Alps.

Talius Brute - on 12 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:
> (In reply to JLS)
> [...]
>
> I hope he will. Hopefully Kittels legs will have gone by then assuming he makes it through the Alps.

I'm going to be on the Champs to see it happen. Was last year as well - greatest sporting event I've ever seen. Hopefully this year will be as good and will be Cav again.
Bob Hughes - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to Wanderer100)
>
> Just when you think the gods had deserted Cav his (self made?) luck takes a turn for the better.
>
> I'm sure he'll never forget that win. Hopefully it raises his spirits and he can muster up enough belief for the Paris stage. After the last couple of days he'd looked down and out.
>
> Anyone think he will win the final stage? Kittle looks faster, Griepel's blowing hot and cold.

Cav fully deserved that win - great bit of opportunism. Shows he's more than just a sprinter too. OPQS will need to work hard for Cav to win Paris. It will take Kittel being held back or not getting a good lead out. Stage 12 showed that head to head Kittel has more pace.
andymac - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

We are now going to see what Froome is truly made of.

I, for one, hope he pulls it off.

and if he does it will be a truly magnificent achievement ,given the way his team is misfiring. a better result than last year.

And would be one in the eye for whatever politics / hurdles he has had to negotiate earlier in the year.

Was trying to remember why Sky let Rogers leave. Am I right in thinking there was a slight cloud hanging over him ,a la Sean Yates?

Anyway,COME ON FROOMIE!
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Chris the Tall - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
Great riding by OPQS to lose kittel and the by Cav to get across when Saxo made their move, shows that he is far more than just a one trick pony. But in some ways it will give confidence to Kittel - it was an acceptance that he is the fastest sprinter this year.

Given Cav's incredible, immaculate record in Paris I'd still back him, but we'll see a lot of riders drop out or be eliminated in the next week, and those that make it will be in different shape to this week
Chris the Tall - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to andymac:

> Was trying to remember why Sky let Rogers leave. Am I right in thinking there was a slight cloud hanging over him ,a la Sean Yates?
>
Yates didn't admit anything and retired from the sport for "personal reasons" or some such guff - he was both a team mate and DS for Armstrong, so that's not fooling anyone but doesn't help the sport.

I think Rogers did come clean to USADA - he was also an Armstrong team mate - and got a token ban and a P45 from sky.
Swirly - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> Given Cav's incredible, immaculate record in Paris I'd still back him, but we'll see a lot of riders drop out or be eliminated in the next week, and those that make it will be in different shape to this week

I think this is key, Cav has shown he can put in a big sprint immediately after the mountains and the stages just before Paris will be hard going.
sleavesley on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: think it will all go off on ventoux for the GC riders, so a steady ride today maybe with a breakaway.

Would also be great to see Cav get it in Paris. I think the green Jersey is Sagans to lose though which I don't think will happen unless something major happens to him.
carnie - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: Rogers was not on Armstrongs team and has never admited to his drug use, he says he left sky for a better contract.
betamonkey - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to andymac:
Could have been worse for Froome - at least BMC and Katusha contributed to the chase. If it had been left entirely to Sky, they would have lost far more...

With Valverde finishing so far back, it simplifies the task for Froome - mark the main climbing threat, Contador and Mollema. If Quintana attacks, he can hang back and see if Saxo or Belkin chase to defend their positions.
betamonkey - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to sleavesley:
Today might be good one for Sagan if they can shed the pure sprinters on the lumps. Can't see him losing green barring a fall...
Bob Hughes - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to betamonkey:

Bit of a day off for Froome today. I was actually quite relieved to see Sky riding together again today.

Well done Trentino
andymac - on 13 Jul 2013
In reply to carnie:

I got the impression there was a bit of an end of season cull last year.

One of the guru`s departed as well ,having previously been on the US Postal

team .

Team Sky were cleaning out the cutlery drawer ,and everything had to be seen to be squeaky 'clean'.
Chris the Tall - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to carnie:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall) Rogers was not on Armstrongs team and has never admited to his drug use, he says he left sky for a better contract.

Yep looks liike my memory is at fault, although Rogers has admitted working with Michele Ferari, he claims it wasn't drug related. Either way great tactician and clearly a loss to sky
Enty - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Right, I'm off to The Ventoux. Best get there early.

E
JLS on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

"Best get there early"

Laying out the carpet tacks?
Bob Hughes - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Have a cracking day! and take some photos!
balmybaldwin - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

Very jealous.... its going to be a great stage today. Enjoy!
highcamp - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Armstrong-esque performance if ever there was one.
dale1968 - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Another spectacular day, RP did an awsome effort, Quintana bluffed and finally cracked
Andrew Smith - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp: Meaning?
Pyreneenemec - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to Andrew Smith:


Another fantastic day on The Tour. My heart would truly bleed if Froome was found to be guilty of doping, but until then, thanks Chris for giving us such a performance !
Chris the Tall - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:
As I've said before, if Sky are doping they are doing so with a level of precision and thoroughness that Armstrong could only dream of.

Froome will be tested everyday whether he wins or not, and when his biological passport is examined any anomalies will identified. I hope they have been doing random tests on Bertie, because so far he hasn't finished in the top three on any stage.

Plus today's stage came between a quiet day and a rest day, so it was no surprise that the fittest rider came to the fore.
carnie - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: It's a farce!
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dale1968 - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp: In the comic it said that he was pushing the same wattage as Armstrong, and had been faster on timed rides Armstrong had done, would be unbelievably necky to make that common knowledge if he was doping..
Chris the Tall - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
Breaking news - first positive of this years tour - Tyson Gay - which team does he ride for ?
carnie - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: Er he's a 100m sprinter as in atheletics!
Aly - on 14 Jul 2013
Chris the Tall - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to carnie:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall) Er he's a 100m sprinter as in atheletics!

But he's a doper, so he must be a cyclist!

Or is it that if you're a cyclist, you must be a doper?

Ok I'm being facetious, because we now know that for a long time all the top riders were doping. And even the also rans. But if you believe that someone is doping simply because they win then why bother following the sport?

I wouldn't bet my house that Froome was clean, but by the same measure I wouldn't bet that Bertie, Valv or the other usual suspects were doping at the moment, or at least thus far.

Is this what clean racing looks like ? How would we know ?
a lakeland climber on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to Aly:

Now Asafa Powell has failed a test. Seems two Jamaican sprinters and two field athletes failed tests.

ALC
Chris the Tall - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:
I've been saying 'just because you run faster than Ben Johnson doesn't mean you're a doper" for the last few weeks. Might have to think of a different analogy now !
mark s - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: before today my favorite sporting moments were usain bolt smashing the world record 100 meters and button coming from the back to win the canadian g.p
froome has topped that today,so so impressive.
now its obvious why wiggins dint fancy his chances
mark s - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: i had the same stuff ben johnson took,it still takes me 20 seconds to run 100 meters,so its no all what you take hehe
Lee Proctor - on 14 Jul 2013
Watched the tour on the lower slopes of Ventoux then managed to get down to a bar just in time to watch Froome nail the opposition. An awesome day.
andymac - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Come on Froomie.

super effort. great psychological move and performance with tomorrow being a rest day.

He will probably sleep in his oxygen chamber until half an hour before racing on Tuesday.
Christheclimber - on 14 Jul 2013
In reply to andymac:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> Come on Froomie.

Juat watched the highlights on catch up, Froome was excellent, what a ride today.

robandian - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Christheclimber: I genuinely believe Sky to be clean so I want to know what was in the nose bag that Frome had half way up yesterday and where can I get some !
JJL - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to robandian:

I'm no cyclist, but spent Saturday with a few of the oognoscenti... and there was lots of dark muttering doping.

I so hope he's clean. It feels like there's more than his personal reputation at stake.
Ramblin dave - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to JJL:
Muttering about doping is to cycling cognoscenti what questioning people's achievements on the coarse-grained carboniferous sandstones of the Peak District and northern England is to UKC.
woolsack - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Radio 4's Today programmes Sports Desk managed to completely ignore Froome's fantastic stage win on the Ventoux yesterday. Too busy micro examining the Athletics positive tests. That's positive I suppose?
alan1961 - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: A fantastic day for Froome and cycling. A tour leader who doesn't just hide in and rely on his team, but goes out with the intention of competing and winning stages. You've got to admire that.

I haven't seen a race leader like this since Lemond.
Mike Highbury - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to alan1961:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec) A fantastic day for Froome and cycling. A tour leader who doesn't just hide in and rely on his team, but goes out with the intention of competing and winning stages. You've got to admire that.
>
> I haven't seen a race leader like this since Lemond.

Er right.

No tour winner has sought to win road stages during the past 23 years. What?

No reliance on his team.... if that is what you think then I'm guessing that you didn't see the stage.

(Either that or you are Alan James)
In reply to woolsack:
> (In reply to cragtyke) Radio 4's Today programmes Sports Desk managed to completely ignore Froome's fantastic stage win on the Ventoux yesterday. Too busy micro examining the Athletics positive tests. That's positive I suppose?

Depends when you listened. The 7:30 sports news was almost entirely dedicated to Froome with a long report from Simin Brotherton.

Alan
In reply to Mike Highbury:
> Er right.
>
> No tour winner has sought to win road stages during the past 23 years. What?
>
> No reliance on his team.... if that is what you think then I'm guessing that you didn't see the stage.
>
> (Either that or you are Alan James)

Very puzzled by this comment?

Alan
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Guy - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Froome's ride was awesome but so was Quintana's. Look at the climb as a whole and Froome was expertly paced (presumably at a practiced wattage) for 2/3 of the climb. Quintana did practically all of the climb on his own and nearly matched Froome.
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber: The news regarding the two sprinters failing drug tests does make me wonder about the mentality at the top of certain speed/endurance sports. They obviously know the history of people getting caught, yet believe their system will be fool proof (until it isn't). Which then leads me to wonder if they (the pros who take PEDs) believe all the other athletes are on the juice and getting away with it, so they can as well, like a form of paranoia?

Chris the Tall - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Guy:
> Froome was expertly paced (presumably at a practiced wattage) for 2/3 of the climb.

According to Rob Hayles on the BBC, Froome spent a week practicing up Ventoux in May - this sort of diligence seem to be easily forgotten.
Alyson - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to JJL)
> Muttering about doping is to cycling cognoscenti what questioning people's achievements on the coarse-grained carboniferous sandstones of the Peak District and northern England is to UKC.

Very nicely put! :-)
woolsack - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH: Fairy nuff, I was listening from about 8.15
a lakeland climber on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús:

Without trying to turn this thread in to one of those facile internet discussions by amateurs about misuse of stats that Dave Brailsford seems to dislike, there does appear to be seem to be a genuine change in attitude in the peloton about PEDs.

During this year's Giro there were mutterings and some finger pointing in the peloton about a certain rider who later failed a drugs test - I forget his name - he'd put on about five kilos since last year but was now faster up the hills. This is somewhat different to the "omerta" style silence that existed just a few years ago: David Millar was distinctly cold-shouldered when he broke ranks about drugs.

Change won't happen overnight, it will probably take another generation when the current clean riders become director sportives in their own right. At the moment with seemingly unrepentent ex drug users such as Riis as managers there are still feet in the old world. I think the UCI needs a thorough clean out as well, too many of the top positions in that organisation are tainted.

Back to the actual racing: we've had two brilliant days racing in the last week with the breakaway on stage 13 - how did they let four team leaders get away? Showed that Team Sky need a bit more tactical nous. And yesterday's battle up Mt Ventoux. With a neutral's hat on, I hope that the alpine stages are as good and I'd like to see Saxobank attack and take some time back from Froome so that he has to attack in return but the route will have to pass a few MaccyD's to pep up Contador!

ALC
Guy - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

The Tour is going how you might expect i.e. Team Sky are fantastic when it comes to set routines but throw in a curve ball i.e. the cross wind stage and they are not as effective because they haven't trained specifically for it. Cav said OPQ ride in those conditions alot and it showed. Contador has been at the receiving end of echelon racing and knew how to exploit it from that experience.

Pyreneenemec - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:
> (In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús)
>
>. will have to pass a few MaccyD's to pep up Contador!
>
> ALC


It's been a great Tour so far and the final week looks set to be the cherry on the cake ! I was overjoyed yesterday when Froome managed to take all that time against Contador. I really can't stand the guy; he reminds me of Richard Virenque, who's pathetic pleas of innocence and being "doped" against his will filled the French media with comic material for many months.

Chris the Tall - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Guy:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> Cav said OPQ ride in those conditions alot and it showed.

It also transpires that OPQS and Belkin shared a hotel the night before !
Bob Hughes - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber)
> [...]
> >. will have to pass a few MaccyD's to pep up Contador!
> [...]
>
>
> It's been a great Tour so far and the final week looks set to be the cherry on the cake ! I was overjoyed yesterday when Froome managed to take all that time against Contador. I really can't stand the guy;

Froome's ride was phenomenal yesterday although I'd love to have seen Quintana put some time into him. That guy's got a serious pair of b*lls.

MikeTS - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to Andrew Smith)
>
>
>My heart would truly bleed if Froome was found to be guilty of doping,

it's OK, it's all up to the diet

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/14/tour-de-france-team-sky-dietician
Toby_W on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Not surprised by the athletics sprinters drugs failures at all, can't remember which of the anti doping scientists said he doesn't watch the 100 m as they're all juiced but his reasons convinced me.

Really happy to believe (and hopeful) Froome is clean, great riding. I think this ends any debate that he could have won last year and didn't which to me says a lot about his character.

I love it that it has been said that some of the modern drugs/doping techniques turn donkeys into racehorses, I like it even more that there seems to be a few people with shadowy pasts riding like donkeys and last year looked wrecked after attacking in some stages.

I loved it when contador got handed his arse.

I have felt a little down about a few of the older pros who are and have been great riders and clean must surely be feeling a little robbed.

Cheers

Toby
Aly - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Toby_W:

> I think this ends any debate that he could have won last year and didn't which to me says a lot about his character.
>

I think it's easy to forget that last year not only was Wiggins going very well, but he won a lot of time in the two long TTs.

Wiggins beat Froome by nearly three and half minutes in the end, and took about 1:45 over the two TTs. I think Froome had a puncture(?) early on which lost him about 90 seconds, but even without that I suspect he may have struggled to take that extra time out of Wiggo. The only real chance would have been the Peyragudes finish where, even if he'd been set free to catch Valverde he wouldn't have put more than a minute into the big names - as it was Sky only put 20 seconds into Van den Broeck and Nibali on that stage.

Had Froome been team leader though, I'd agree he could have probably won it.
Bob Hughes - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Aly: There was also one stage in the mountains last year where Froome waited for Wiggo a couple of times to pull him up the mountain.
highcamp - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

I'd like to pose a simple question to the gallery, and ask that you challenge your objectivity (honestly challenge it) in answering:

If Froome wasn't racing under a British racing license, and instead was a stars & stripes American, would you call foul on this year's performance? What if he was Italian, or Spanish? Before trying to play devil's advocate and saying "of course I'd believe he was clean, I'm 'color blind' when it comes to nationality"… consider some points of data -

- this rider, Rider X we can call him (again, NOT British), had virtually zero results as a pro until one notable 2nd place 2 yrs ago (nothing else that entire year either).

- this year, however, he is dominating almost every single stage race he has entered - in the mountains and in the TT. And by dominating, it is akin to Armstrong/Tour or Contador/Giro levels of dominance. Similarly, he was near these levels of dominance last year but restricted by team politics (again, one year after his first notable result, after 4 yrs of nothing at all).

- his climb of Aix 3 Domaines this year was the 3rd fastest ever, just :07 sec slower than Armstrong in 2001 (when Armstrong obliterated Ullrich... and when, according to Tyler Hamilton, Armstrong failed an EPO test at the Tour de Suisse 3wks earlier (which was later covered up)). [Also of note, Rider X rode AX3 this year faster than Armstrong rode it in '03.]

- Rider X's climb of Aix 3 Domaines this year exhibited an estimated VAM of ~1715 m/h, at around 6.3W/kg (estimated). Typically a red flag in post-Armstrong/Contador/Bruyneel days.

- 3 stages after the above performance, Rider X almost beats the 3x World Time Trial Champion on a *flat* course, finishing into a headwind. His nearest competitors with climbing prowess are near 2min back.

Taken together, from a Spanish cyclist on a Spanish team, would you call the above rider's performance into question?


'… the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.' - Lance Armstrong
Mike Stretford - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp: Has the testing routine not improved since, and in light of the Armstrong revelations?
highcamp - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Papillon:

It definitely has, which is great. As history has shown us, however, the tests are typically years behind the cutting edge dopers.

Remember, aside from the 1999 steroid positive (for which Armstrong's doctor produced a post-dated prescription for saddle sores), Armstrong NEVER officially failed a test... and he was the most tested man in all of sports.

The tests are just behind the times. It sucks, but it's true.
Toby_W on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:

A few of your notes are flawed as has been discussed on various bike pages and the analysis you site.

But to your question, no my opinion would be the same and would remain so until he had his 1999 re test or puerto or clen + plasticisers.

With anybody (not just cyclists) I would always hope for the best but not be to surprised by human failure.

I may be odd though as I work in academia so am surrounded by people of all nations.

Cheers

Toby
Toby_W on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp: he's not the most tested, he just said that.

Cheers

Toby
highcamp - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Toby_W:

Ok, Toby, take out the VAM, the watts, any # of the tests Armstrong did or did not take.... take out everything you contest, the story doesn't change much at all.
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Arms Cliff - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Toby_W: Who has been tested more than Armstrong? It seemed to make logical sense: cycling is the sport with the highest frequency of testing and at racers stage winners are always tested.
highcamp - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Arms Cliff:

I do admit my quote of Armstrong being the most tested is anecdotal, and likely just during the Tour weeks at best. So I don't have hard numbers. Armstrong didn't race much outside of the Tour, so he didn't get as many post race podium tests as, say, a Boonen. But outside of cycling, I think swimmers get tested a lot, as do speed skaters for some reason - even though there isn't much money in either of them. Track and field also has a ton of testing. Compared to the others, cycling def has the most money it (both the teams, and the personal wealth of the top players) so it's easier for them to beta-test methods, buy testing machines, pay off officials to give them forewarning of random tests, etc.
Chris the Tall - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:
Brailsford has said today he will release all training data etc to WADA for examination by their experts, but will not release it publically.

Which seems fair enough to me, and far more transparency that we have seen in the past. We've all heard the denials in the past so there's very little they can say that isn't almost a quote from LA.

Why not release it publically ? Simple - because then the data will be cherry picked by experts and tin-foil hat wearers and someone will claim it's proof of cheating with the same approach as claiming that the moon landings were faked.

I don't give a monkeys if some website or other can claim that such and such a value represents a red flag - just because you are good doesn't mean you are doping. Comparing the climb with 10 years ago is very flawed - different stage in the race, different approach, wind might be different, road surface might be different, hell even helmets will make a difference (10 years ago, they didn't wear them on climbs).

Jingoistic perhaps, but both the US and Spain have history of covering up positives and evidence etc, whereas GB tended to take an ultra-strict approach. And Team sky did evolve from the Olympic cycling program, which concentrated on track cycling, partly because of how dirty road cycling was at the time. They were also very dominant, but their results remain untarnished.

I know Sky has quite a big budget - though not as big as Katusha's travel budget! - but they'd have to have a huge slush fund to be running the sort of super-organised doping ring that would leave absolutely no evidence, no disgruntled ex-riders, ex-soigneurs, ex-doctors etc etc.
Lee Proctor - on 15 Jul 2013
I witnessed a great performance by Froome and his team on the slopes of Ventoux yesterday.

All the chatter about Sky using PED's without any shred of evidence really makes me angry. Froome trains hard, has a brilliant intelligent team framework behind him and as a consequence is riding like no one else this year.

I guess people find it hard to comprehend super human performance without the aid of illicit substances but strangely, we as a community of climbers, readily accept the superhuman achievements of Ondra without question and yet on this forum pundits will readily question the achievements of Froome. I guess Froome and his team are tainted by the whole Armstrong era history and that, sadly, is unavoidable.

Ultimately the truth is only known by Froome himself, but if I was Froome and was clean (which I believe) then I really wouldn't give a monkeys about what the pundits, the press or anyone for that matter really thought of me as I would know I was the best man on the day!

I really hope Sky can hold it together for a very tough final week and deliver Froome to the top step of the podium.

balmybaldwin - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> - this rider, Rider X we can call him (again, NOT British), had virtually zero results as a pro until one notable 2nd place 2 yrs ago (nothing else that entire year either).

True, and it does look suspicious, but remember that this is a rider that was in Africa, not europe in his early days, so will have less of a record. It's also been stated that he had some form of parasite/virus that was causing inconsistent results

>
> - this year, however, he is dominating almost every single stage race he has entered - in the mountains and in the TT. And by dominating, it is akin to Armstrong/Tour or Contador/Giro levels of dominance. Similarly, he was near these levels of dominance last year but restricted by team politics (again, one year after his first notable result, after 4 yrs of nothing at all).
>

This didn't seem to be a problem when Brad dominated in a similar fashion in the build up to last year's tour.

> - his climb of Aix 3 Domaines this year was the 3rd fastest ever, just :07 sec slower than Armstrong in 2001 (when Armstrong obliterated Ullrich... and when, according to Tyler Hamilton, Armstrong failed an EPO test at the Tour de Suisse 3wks earlier (which was later covered up)). [Also of note, Rider X rode AX3 this year faster than Armstrong rode it in '03.]
>

I'm comfortable that in 12 years nutrition, training, high altitude sleeping, bike design might have improved performances to this level. (Anyone noticed how virtually all sports records get broken with time?)

> - Rider X's climb of Aix 3 Domaines this year exhibited an estimated VAM of ~1715 m/h, at around 6.3W/kg (estimated). Typically a red flag in post-Armstrong/Contador/Bruyneel days.

Quite possibly, but then this doesn't account for other factors (wind in particular)
>
> - 3 stages after the above performance, Rider X almost beats the 3x World Time Trial Champion on a *flat* course, finishing into a headwind. His nearest competitors with climbing prowess are near 2min back.
>

True, but the guy's got form here - what was the result of the Olympics time trial?

> Taken together, from a Spanish cyclist on a Spanish team, would you call the above rider's performance into question?
>
>
Quite possibly - and it does call froome's performances into question, I am uneasy about those accelerations yesterday - I've never seen anything like that. That doesn't make him quilty though, and I struggle a lot more with the idea that Wiggins doped last year. The fact that froome was almost this good last year, implies it was going on under Wiggo's watch, and I don't think he would tolerate it.

> '… the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles.' - Lance Armstrong

Interesting you bring this up... I was thinking about this yesterday - I don't think I've seen any miracles in cycling recently - not like we used to - it seems now that with the scientific approach and a lack of drugs we just don't get those amazing comebacks (which in someways is a bit of a shame!)
Chris the Tall - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:
At the start of Armstrong's time there was no test for EPO or HGH and it would appear that they were always one step ahead of the labs in knowing how to mask things.

But he did test positive in 99, gave suspicious results in 2001 and we still don't know whether his biological passport results from 2009 were positive or not.

However one of his main tricks was avoiding random out-of comp testing.

Despite people using the term "Sky Postal" it should be clear to anyone that there modus operandi is quite different and they are not using the same methods he did. This is not proof that they aren't doping, but if they are they are doing so at a vastly more sophisticated manner and so getting Cookson to head the UCI would be an act of evil genius !

Quiddity - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:

To those suggesting Froome is doping. If he is, then the way I see it there are two possibilities.

a) Froome is doping on his own (without Brailsford or anyone on the team's knowledge)
or
b) Froome is doping with Brailsford's knowledge (implying that basically everything Brailsford says about doping is a lie, and presumably doping is totally systematic in team Sky and implying that probably Wiggins was doped last year)

I personally don't see either scenario as particularly credible, but am curious which you think is more likely to be the case.
elsewhere on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> Jingoistic perhaps, but both the US and Spain have history of covering up positives and evidence etc, whereas GB tended to take an ultra-strict approach. And Team sky did evolve from the Olympic cycling program, which concentrated on track cycling, partly because of how dirty road cycling was at the time. They were also very dominant, but their results remain untarnished.

That's the key factor - Brailsford & track cycling in general have a cleaner reputation. Is the testing regime more independent - perhaps host nation Olympic/championship testing rather than UCI?

Maybe it's just something in the Manchester water - Brailsford seems to be the Alex Ferguson of cycling.
Aly - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:
> (In reply to Aly) There was also one stage in the mountains last year where Froome waited for Wiggo a couple of times to pull him up the mountain.

Wasn't that the mountain-top finish at Peyragudes?
highcamp - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Well, it seems I got my answer. Thanks.

On a personal note, I was screaming at the television in 2011 for Sky to let Froome fly. Same last year. I just like the way the guy races. I suspect that's why a lot of people support him - he attacks. Wiggo, for better or worse, raced via the Indurain method. Effective, sure, but for us spectators it's boring. So, yes, I was fully behind Froome, even this season.

I never really cared for Armstrong. But I did follow Hincapie a lot. I liked that he raced classics... above all Paris-Roubaix. He represented America there (I'm American, in case you couldn't guess), and that was great because it got American spectators to notice other parts of cycling outside of the Tour. But in 2005 when Hincapie came 2nd to Boonen in PR and then won the queen's stage in the mountains at that year's Tour, I became suspicious. It sucked, but in this age of specialization it was just too odd. Same when Contador beat Cancellara in a time trial ('09 TdF).

Anyway, it would be great if Froome is clean and it stands the test of time. And that Sky has figured out a training + nutrition formula that represents a serious evolution in sports.

For me, the Tour is boring this year (outside of the sprints, which are outstanding since there isn't one singular dominant sprinter [Renshaw and Cav together again next year = ouch]). I'm now looking forward to Cancellara and the world championships. Thanks for the discussion.

Cheers.
Chris the Tall - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to elsewhere:

> Maybe it's just something in the Manchester water - Brailsford seems to be the Alex Ferguson of cycling.

Bollocks he is !

You can listen to DB - here for example - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/23316712 - and think here's an intelligent bloke with a level of integrity and honesty rarely seen in sport, rather than wanting to kick in the TV screen as AF tries to manipulate the referees again.

I'll add that I do believe DB when he says his aim is to get more people in Britain cycling at all levels, which makes the roads safer for me.

So when I hear them talking about doping, it's not Wiggo, Cav or Froome that I believe, it's Brailsford.

nrhardy - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:'For me, the Tour is boring this year', are you drunk?

Some background reading on Froome, if you're interested:
http://www.kenyacycling.org/chris-froome-rider-profile/
http://m.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jun/22/chris-froome-tour-de-france
And an interesting article about African cycling with some info about Froome's power output and endurance ability from UCI testing:
http://www.esquire.co.uk/culture/features/3828/the-tour-de-frances-african-cycling-revolution/
Hardly an overnight sensation.
Toby_W on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp: I totally take your points and was letting myself get distracted.. My answer is the same to your excellent question.

Armstrong was tested about 263 times so quite a lot of people were tested more...... He may have tested himself an awful lot to make sure he was safe to take those tests and just got a bit muddled with his PR all those years :-)

Cheers

Toby
Kipper - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:
>
> .... I'd love to have seen Quintana put some time into him. That guy's got a serious pair of b*lls.

Good - I've only got 2 bets this year; him and Fuglsang to finish top 6 :-)


John Rushby - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to High camp

Short answer - I think we have shown that with Cadel and Ryder that a nonBrit can win a GT and not be called into suspicion.

Anyhoo, we are about to another Tour winner. The obviously suspect winner of the Tour of Turkey has tested positive, meaning we get a black African winner, which is great for the sport. Some great stuff happening cycle wise in Africa at the moment.
Toby_W on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to John Rushby: yes, if the Kenyans etc start riding young and ride like they run it could make for some amazing mountain stages and racing.

Yes I also think Evans is clean and also Sastre were clean.

Cheers

Toby
biped - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Guy:
> (In reply to cragtyke) Froome's ride was awesome but so was Quintana's. Look at the climb as a whole and Froome was expertly paced (presumably at a practiced wattage) for 2/3 of the climb. Quintana did practically all of the climb on his own and nearly matched Froome.

Yep. The Columbian Progeria Goblin is going to have Contador worried and will be well worth keeping an eye on for the future, and the rest of the tour. Amazing solo break and nearly held it to the end, while still taking chunks out of the rest of the field. Awesome.
Fredt on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:
> (In reply to Arms Cliff)
>
> Compared to the others, cycling def has the most money it (both the teams, and the personal wealth of the top players) so it's easier for them to beta-test methods, buy testing machines, pay off officials to give them forewarning of random tests, etc.

What about tennis?

In fact think about it. Tennis. And as others have mentioned, the Spanish Disposition.
And don't you think that really muscular tennis players look bizarre?
Aly - on 15 Jul 2013
In reply to Fredt: Interesting, if slightly partial, blog here:
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.co.uk/
Chris the Tall - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
Interesting stuff on Froome's training methods - http://gu.com/p/3hb4m/tw - not that this will silence the cynics who seem to believe that no matter how hard you train, and how intelligently you pace yourself, you must still be doping.
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Mike Highbury - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
> Interesting stuff on Froome's training methods - http://gu.com/p/3hb4m/tw - not that this will silence the cynics who seem to believe that no matter how hard you train, and how intelligently you pace yourself, you must still be doping.

But it's not interesting at all , is it?

It gives no useful information on training save that it is very hard and certainly none that would satisfy even the most gentle of critics.
IainRUK - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Toby_W:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> Not surprised by the athletics sprinters drugs failures at all, can't remember which of the anti doping scientists said he doesn't watch the 100 m as they're all juiced but his reasons convinced me.
>
> Really happy to believe (and hopeful) Froome is clean, great riding. I think this ends any debate that he could have won last year and didn't which to me says a lot about his character.
>

I hope Bolt isn't.. and believe he's clean, but you never know. Froome looks in great shape, skinny as a rake and is clearly peaking at the right time. Sky must be clean, you'd hope so.

But Paula Ratcliffe dominated the marathon and even froze all samples for future testing, noone touches her even now, so you can be at the top clean.
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: When I read this report http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/athletics/10180116/Asafa-Powells-hotel-room-raided-by-I...

"Police from a specialist drug and food safety unit found around 50 boxes and vials containing medicines and pills, according to Italian press reports. "

and

"Police were “surprised” at the quantity of drugs they found in the hotel room because it was “disproportionate” to the needs of one athlete, the Ansa news agency reported."

I thought to myself it's only a matter of time before the whole Jamaican team is implicated (probably including Bolt). Clearly this story has legs, hopefully it's not as bad as it sounds.
Mike Highbury - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Bjartur í Sumarhús:
> "Police were “surprised” at the quantity of drugs they found in the hotel room because it was “disproportionate” to the needs of one athlete, the Ansa news agency reported."

The good old days: www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/jan/27/cycling.cycling
Chris the Tall - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Mike Highbury:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
> [...]
>
> But it's not interesting at all , is it?
>
Erm - yes it is

> It gives no useful information on training save that it is very hard and certainly none that would satisfy even the most gentle of critics.

When Froome attacked I texted my (roadie) mate to say "Froome is pedalling like a mountain biker" - i.e. very high cadence for a short burst, but staying in the saddle. At least, that's the way that I ride my MTB, but it's only in recent years that I have found that is the most efficient way for me. Now we have an explanation for that, along with a insight to the fact that there training rides aren't simply a case of going up the mountain and back down again.

Sky brought Kerrison in to give a fresh perspective on coaching - their claim is that coaching cycling was lagging well behind other sports (and overly dependent upon drugs). If this is true, then as cycling cleans up it, Sky will be able to exploit the advantage of having a head start in coaching.

Or alternatively it's a massive conspiracy with some as-yet unknown, untestable super drug. Maybe having bilharzia has strengthened Froome's system ? Should it be on the banned list ?
The New NickB - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

I really hope Bolt is clean, I believe he is, but I though Gay probably was as well. A dirty Bolt would kill track and field athletics, the economics of which appear to be built around him and almost entirely him.
MikeTS - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

I'm trying to watch it online (illegally, but then I can't get it legally in the country I'm in at the moment) on http://www.day.to/watch/live/streaming/online/free/en-vivo/m2/euro/july-07-2013/cycling-tour-de-fran...

This is Eurosport. With a lot of effort I can get rid of all the overlying windows except for one where some bastard has placed a transparent white panel over the controls so I can see and hear, but can't increase the window size or volume.
I'm curious? What do you see? And any ideas?
IainRUK - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> I really hope Bolt is clean, I believe he is, but I though Gay probably was as well. A dirty Bolt would kill track and field athletics, the economics of which appear to be built around him and almost entirely him.

I think you are right.. track athletics is in a bad shape. Bolt is the show piece right now, but also because he had genuine challengers..

I think it's in a mess. Its hard to see how he's not somehow implicated, or knew of what was going on though. I hope he's clean personally but even if he knew about the others I'll be dissapointed with him because its still a huge amount if damage.
alan1961 - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Mike Highbury: In comparison to the ones that have gone before!!!
dale1968 - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:just off to watch it live on ITV4, It's going to be entertaining
minimike - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> Maybe having bilharzia has strengthened Froome's system ? Should it be on the banned list ?

Hahahaha... have you looked up what Bilharzia is? It does anything but!
ajsteele - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to MikeTS:

I wouldn't touch that link after your description of the transparent panel over the viewing screen, that could well be a massive button for you to give permission for something to install on your pc without your knowledge.

Aly - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to MikeTS: Have you tried any of the other links from steephill? Sometimes you need to set it to full screen for the ads to disappear.
MikeTS - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Aly:
> (In reply to MikeTS) Sometimes you need to set it to full screen for the ads to disappear.

Yeah, that was my problem, I couldn't find for a while how to close the window covering the full-screen control

MikeTS - on 16 Jul 2013
> (In reply to MikeTS)
>
> I wouldn't touch that link after your description of the transparent panel over the viewing screen, that could well be a massive button for you to give permission for something to install on your pc without your knowledge.

well I got ads for Russian girls and some other lady showing a lot of cleavage! I had to persuade my wife I what I really wanted was to watch a bike-race on our living room big TV.
Then I found the close window button, you have to hit the button dead centre. And got good viewing of the TDF
I'm well protected by firewalls but thanks for advice, will run my malware stuff now.
stewieatb on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Great work by Froome and Porte shutting down all the attacks from Bert. Then excellent chasing back on after the crash.

Looked from the air like Bert went down and Froome had to go onto the grass to avoid him on the deck. Both seem fine. I'm amazed the group didn't back off though - I thought there were Rules about what the group does when the Maillot Jaune has a crash or mechanical.
nrhardy - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to stewieatb: Brilliant work from Porte.

Think there was an ironic thumbs up gesture by Contador to Quintana regarding the unwritten rule.
stewieatb on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to nrhardy:
> (In reply to stewieatb) Brilliant work from Porte.
>
> Think there was an ironic thumbs up gesture by Contador to Quintana regarding the unwritten rule.

Ahh yes. I saw that on replay, wondered what it was about.
Ramblin dave - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to stewieatb:
Does that apply to crashes as well as mechanicals? I'd have thought that in general (if not in this case) crashing on fast descents was part of the game - knowing how hard you can push it on a descent without coming off is part of the skill of racing, and sitting up to wait for someone who's overconfident and crashes would make no more sense than sitting up to wait for someone who's overcautious and drops off the pace.

I only saw text commentary on what happened today so can't comment there...
balmybaldwin - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

I thought the group did hold back... they didn't wait for them, but they also weren't going full gas, and no one attacked. Thought the thumbs up from Contador was a genuine thank you for not buggering off.

Was good to see them descending like that, and I wish the coverage of descents was a bit better, as I rarely feel I get a true sense of the descents. I also think on screen speed and gradient readings they have on the camera bikes at the Vuelta should be used (for ups and downs) in the TDF. (I realise today was tricky as they had to show riders crossing the line)

Great win by Costa too
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Paul035 - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:

That's what I think as well. Mechanicals e.g. Cadel's puncture going over tacks last year and Wiggins got the peloton to sit up, that's fair as it wasn't Evan's fault.

However, Contador made a mistake on a corner and lost control so why on earth should everyone wait for him??? It was his choice to hammer the descent.

Also a bit disappointed with Froome's comments regarding Contador attacking on the descent.. if you think its not safe then hang back, its your choice.

It is a race at the end of the day!!!
Enty - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Just uploaded a few shots to our Veloventoux Facebook page - you can like us if you want ;-)

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151719458151100.1073741827.187299736099&type=1¬if_t=...

E
woolsack - on 16 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Not bad having it run right past your front door! :)
Chris the Tall - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to minimike:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> [...]
>
> Hahahaha... have you looked up what Bilharzia is? It does anything but!

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger !
Chris the Tall - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Paul035:

> It is a race at the end of the day!!!

Wiggins was right to neutralise things last year - sabotage by external agents shouldn't affect the race - but that ought to be the exception. People want to see racing and drama, not the race stooping every time someone has a mechanical. And crashes are avoidable (says the guy who crashed twice in a 100 yards last night!) so that is part of the skillset in winning a race. Drugs did help LA go across that field - still one of the great clips in recent years.
maxsmith - on 17 Jul 2013
Contador was trying to take time out of Quintana by hammering the descent, therefore he shouldn't complain at the response when he crashed.

Bob Hughes - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to maxsmith:

Actually I think he was trying to drop Froome. He's been pretty clear throughout the race that he's racing for the yellow jersey. And I reckon fair play to Bertie for spicing the tour up. He's not let up on Froome all Tour even with a 4 minute deficit. The thumbs up thing seems pretty minor.
balmybaldwin - on 17 Jul 2013
maxsmith - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes: I take your point but he was trying to take time out of everyone in the group, meaning Quintana et al had every right to capitalise on his mistake.

And (despite my dislike of Contador) I agree that it is refreshing he is trying everything he can to shake up the standings.

If the forecast rain hits 2x ADH on Thursday that stage could be carnage...
yorkshireman - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to maxsmith:

I was on the Col de Manse yesterday and got a great view as the race came by, although it was just before things got interesting and I had to really watch the highlights when I got home to get the full picture.

The spectacle is great, but TV really is the best place to watch the race!
In reply to maxsmith:
> If the forecast rain hits 2x ADH on Thursday that stage could be carnage...

I agree, especially on the descent from the Col de Sarenne. That is one of the steepest descents, with tightest bends, I have done. It also had pretty dodgy surface when we did it but I imagine that has improved.

Alan
IainRUK - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH: Didn't get Froomes complaints at Contadors style of descent.. Contador has to take risks. Or was I missing something as I 've only been reading reports.
yorkshireman - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH) Didn't get Froomes complaints at Contadors style of descent.. Contador has to take risks. Or was I missing something as I 've only been reading reports.

No, I think the general consensus is that Froome didn't have much to complain about. I've always understood the first rule of descending in a group is to watch your own line, just don't follow the wheel in front precisely in case they end up going off the edge. Froome was tucked in behind Bertie and paid the consequence.

But he was probably pumped full of adrenaline still after a shaky descent and interview minutes after crossing the line so probably just lashed out at the first thing that crossed his mind.
maxsmith - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: imo the most likely way Froome will lose the yellow jersey is if he crashes out..

Contador is trying to force him to take risks, and is well within his rights to do so.

At the end of the day if Froome thinks Alberto is descending too fast, he doesn't have to follow him...
MattJP - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

Liked! Looked like a lot of fun! We hope to go over one day when the kids are a bit older! :D
Mike Stretford - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to yorkshireman:
> (In reply to IainRUK)

> But he was probably pumped full of adrenaline still after a shaky descent and interview minutes after crossing the line so probably just lashed out at the first thing that crossed his mind.

Yup... I think the post match/game/race interview is pretty useful to the media for spicing things up a bit.
DanH9883 - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
It seemed unfair to me that contador crashed then he let Porte draft him back to the pack. Would have been interesting if he had got left on his own as to whether he'd have got back or not
balmybaldwin - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Got to be one of the most embarassing ways to ruin your tour:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/peraud-crashes-during-tour-de-france-tt-reconnaissance
IainRUK - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Papillon:
> (In reply to yorkshireman)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Yup... I think the post match/game/race interview is pretty useful to the media for spicing things up a bit.

Aye.. maybe.. saw he also used Twitter though..

But you see it in football.. though people seem more forgiving of Froome than footballers, especially managers, who say stupid things when a camera is put in front of them when they are off their heads of adrenalin...

lost1977 - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:

far from embarassing the guy is still riding with a possible cracked collarbone, full respect to the rider
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The New NickB - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to lost1977:
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
>
> far from embarassing the guy is still riding with a possible cracked collarbone, full respect to the rider

He has come off again, same shoulder, ouch!
lost1977 - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to The New NickB:

just seen the footage of the second crash
Wanderer100 - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to lost1977:
Another extraordinary day of racing and another phenonomal performance from Froome.
dale1968 - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Contadors face at the finish was a picture
Lee Proctor - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to dale1968:
> (In reply to cragtyke) Contadors face at the finish was a picture

Agreed, looking at Bertii's face as Froome crossed the line was a picture perfect.
balmybaldwin - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Looks like it could be wet on the descent of Alp d'Huez tomorrow which will make things interesting

https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=images&source=android-browser-suggest&client=tablet-and...
Chris the Tall - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
1) peraud - should he have been allowed to continue with a broken collarbone ? Similar concerns to Thomas, Martin and King earlier in the race, it's not just the initial injury, but what happens if you crash again

2) I know bike changes are legal, but should they be ? Or rather, should your spare bike be set up the same as the first ?

3) Another stunning performance by Froome. One things for sure, he isn't appeasing the doubters by taking it easy and hiding his full strength. Clean ? Or very confident that he'll never be caught ? Have to say I think it's the former.

Of course the real tests are still to come, and much depends on how well they all recover.
yorkshireman - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to cragtyke)

> 2) I know bike changes are legal, but should they be ? Or rather, should your spare bike be set up the same as the first ?

More to the point, should the mechanics be allowed to give them a push start? If they crash, fair enough its like sticky bottles and sneaky drafting behind cars, but when you choose to change as a tactic I'm surprised nothing was said today.

Very gutted for Peraud -it looks like he skidded on some Greenedge graffiti painted on the road, or maybe that was coincidence?
Enty - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Swapping bikes is bollocks.
Always used to piss me off in the 3-Peaks Cyclo Cross.
One guy back in the 80's swapped his cross bike for a track bike with no brakes or gears, carried it up and down Whernside then swapped back.

E

lost1977 - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to yorkshireman:

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/who-needs-doping-most-creative-tour-de-france-cheats-3427...

i had heard about some of these stories before but this article is well worth reading, don't think any other event has such quality cheating
Aly - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> Swapping bikes is bollocks.
> Always used to piss me off in the 3-Peaks Cyclo Cross.
> One guy back in the 80's swapped his cross bike for a track bike with no brakes or gears, carried it up and down Whernside then swapped back.
>
> E

Why stop there, surely a plastic kids tricycle would be lighter? ;)
Paul035 - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> Swapping bikes is bollocks.

I thought that, but then wondered if the officials feel they have no choice, i.e. teams would just come out with some pre-arranged made up mechanical problem and swap the bike under that pretence. At least this way everyone is in the same boat.

It would be far better if they insisted that whatever style of bike a rider starts the stage on he completes it on.

From Froome's interview I gathered that the decision wasn't just based on the better aerodynamics of a TT bike, but also on the fact that on his TT bike he could push a far higher gear than the one used in the first half for the climbs, making him much faster coming off the descent into town.

It all starts to get a bit too formula 1 if you let folk change equipment half way through a race to suit conditions
woolsack - on 17 Jul 2013
In reply to Paul035:
> At least this way everyone is in the same boat.
>

Imagine trying that stage on Boris Bike :(

That very nice man, Laurens ten Dam has put his stuff up on Strava

http://app.strava.com/activities/67839844#1306167357

A 45 mile warm up ride in the morning before yesterday's 106 mile stage!


highcamp - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Thursday's stage should be interesting. With so many press agencies around the world publishing articles calling Froome's performance into question - e.g., making note that if he won these stages by a handful of seconds that nobody would really think much of it - I wonder if Sky will take this into account in how they let Froome race. Maybe hold Froome back, have him ride defensive and/or win by just a small margin (sandbag it until the final switchback up the Alpe, give RP a win, etc). Or, if they are fully confident in his 'pane e acqua' performance, let him fly and push out the same wattage and VAM that he did on AX3 or the upper slopes of Ventoux. We shall see.
Chris the Tall - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
Seeing reports on twitter that Sky have released Froome's climbing data for the last two years to l'Equipe, whose expert concludes there is nothing abnormal.
Mr Fuller on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: Yes, just found that. It sounds like FDJ's performance guy looked at the data and concluded that Froome's 5 minute maximal power output is significantly higher than that of his rivals. Presumably that's the crazy accelerations we saw on Vontoux that can distance him quickly from the others. And, if not more importantly, the guy said there's nothing suspicious.
graeme jackson - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Mr Fuller:

Allowing the facts to get in the way of pure speculation just spoils the fun.
GrahamD - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> Seeing reports on twitter that Sky have released Froome's climbing data for the last two years to l'Equipe, whose expert concludes there is nothing abnormal.

Rather depends where your 'normal' benchmark is set, of course :-)
The New NickB - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

In this case 'normal' means 'within the realms of human possibility' rather than 'normal'.
MG - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Mr Fuller:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall) Yes, just found that. It sounds like FDJ's performance guy looked at the data and concluded that Froome's 5 minute maximal power output is significantly higher than that of his rivals.

....And, if not more importantly, the guy said there's nothing suspicious.

No idea about Froome's cleaness but those two phrases don't really go together do they? Being significantly better than rivals must these days automatically be suspicious. I find it rather odd that just a few months ago pretty much all top cyclists from the previous generation were found to be cheats but now being suspicious of today's outliers is somehow unacceptable.
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Calder - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to The New NickB:

The cycnic in me would suspect that Sky are systematically doping him right up to the very brink of that boundary. Marginal gains and all that...
IainRUK - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Calder:
> (In reply to The New NickB)
>
> The cycnic in me would suspect that Sky are systematically doping him right up to the very brink of that boundary. Marginal gains and all that...

I just can't see it. DB has too much to lose. He's popular because he's taking on cycling clean.. even if he didn't win, just being at the front, would be a success.

If one of their riders was found to dope, with them implicated, Sky would implode overnight as sponsors jump..

It would be a massive massive blow to cycling in Britain, which going by DB's recent visits back to North Wales, he seems to really thrive on how its blossoming right now.
Calder - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

In truth, I can't see it either. But I'm not much enamoured by Froominator, so I like to err on the side of cynicism.
Clint86 - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Calder: There have been so many cyclists/athletes who claim innocence and are then caught that the media is bound to be cycnical and suspicious.
IainRUK - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Clint86:
True, but there are some.. Bolt,Radcliffe, Wiggins who just seem more genuine.

I'm surprised at Powell.. not Gay, as I think the US system is tainted.
Mr Fuller on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: I totally agree. If Sky are doping then it kills cycling in the UK and worldwide cycle interest would take a massive blow. From reading David Millar's book, Brailsford comes across as an absolutely top bloke and he's completely fooled me if he is anything but.

Froome testing positive would be almost as bad for cycling as Bolt testing positive would be for athletics.
a lakeland climber on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Mr Fuller:

This Tweet from Mark Cavendish: "So today I will triple my total career ascents of Alpe-d'Huez.. Sh*t."

Sounds like he's looking forward to it :-)

Which reminds me - does Cadel Evans have a bug or something wrong with him? He posted a slower time than Cav in yesterday's TT. I get the feeling his heart's not in it, wouldn't be surprised if he retired at the end of the season.

ALC
link - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to MG:

> No idea about Froome's cleaness but those two phrases don't really go together do they? Being significantly better than rivals must these days automatically be suspicious. I find it rather odd that just a few months ago pretty much all top cyclists from the previous generation were found to be cheats but now being suspicious of today's outliers is somehow unacceptable.

This is exactly why power data probably shouldn't be in the public domain.

Having recorded 5 min max power significantly higher than your rivals, does not mean you are significantly better than your rivals as you stated. It means either a.) Nobody else put as big a dig in on the day or b.) You are capable of much higher, shorter efforts coupled with recovery at a reasonable pace.

I haven't seen any data myself but just reading what is being posted here and elsewhere, conclusions are being drawn backed up by flawed statistics.

I'm not a fan boy either before I get accused of that, I don't know if there is sophisticated cheating going on or until all is clean. All I can do as a cycling fan is enjoy the spectacle and not be too suprised and outraged if it turns out teams claiming to ride clean turn out to have a lot of dirty washing.
The New NickB - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to MG:

That is a rather interesting interpretation of the stated facts. Caution about drug use in cycling isn't unacceptable, it is commonplace, but a lot of people, particularly in the UK, hope, want and feel a degree of justification in Sky being clean, largely built on the British Cycling background.

Our eyes show that Froome is stronger than everyone else, the data which Sky have supplied to, it seems a French newspaper and a rival team, seems to suggest that Froome's better is still within the bounds of human possibility and not as good a juiced up Armstrong or Pantani.
Ramblin dave - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:
> (In reply to Mr Fuller)
>
> This Tweet from Mark Cavendish: "So today I will triple my total career ascents of Alpe-d'Huez.. Sh*t."
>
> Sounds like he's looking forward to it :-)

The major disappointment for today's stage is that there's no possibility of Cav getting lapped by the publicity caravan, because it's stopping after the first ascent of Alpe-d'Huez.

maxsmith - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: part of the reason I like to think Froome is clean, is that he doesn't seem to be an 'ego' rider like many (but not all) of the high profile dopers in the past, armstrong, ullrich, pantani etc

I guess what I'm saying is that his reserved character type, is less 'win at all costs' than someone like Danilo di Luca, recently tested positive in the Giro to no one's surprise..
maxsmith - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber: with the race for GC in full flow, is there a high chance of riders like Cavendish, kittel and greipel missing the cut on adh?
Chris the Tall - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber)
> [...]
>
> The major disappointment for today's stage is that there's no possibility of Cav getting lapped by the publicity caravan, because it's stopping after the first ascent of Alpe-d'Huez.

Don't think so, sounds like it's going ahead as planned

a lakeland climber on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to maxsmith:

The cut-off works according to a formula, basically a percentage of the winning time adjusted depending on the speed of the stage. However if a large percentage of riders are outside the time limit then the organisers basically "fine" them in some way and let them carry on. This is why you get the autobus of riders strolling in - weakness in numbers! I think the limit is 25% of riders in the race, so occasionally teams will send domestiques back to join the autobus to swell its numbers so that the sprinters don't get eliminated.

ALC
Sir Chasm - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: I think he might mean the caravan only goes up once, leaving the race to go up again.
a lakeland climber on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:

Cav got fined points in the green jersey competition the other year for being outside the time limit but was allowed to carry on as he was in the autobus. This is what was different to the American rider who got disqualified earlier in this year's race.

ALC
Chris the Tall - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:

> Which reminds me - does Cadel Evans have a bug or something wrong with him? He posted a slower time than Cav in yesterday's TT. I get the feeling his heart's not in it, wouldn't be surprised if he retired at the end of the season.
>
As I understand it Cuddles intended to use the Giro as a warm-up, found he was in contention and sort of overdid it a bit there, resulting in him being a bit tired here. So yesterday he took it very easy, saved his strength, is well down the GC and might have a chance of a stage win in the next 3 days.

Why Valverde went full gas yesterday is more of a mystery

Ramblin dave - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
Yes, sorry. Badly phrased on my part.

I haven't checked the times, but presumably even the slowest autobus isn't likely to get lapped by the leaders given the distance around to get back to the bottom? Because otherwise you'd open up the possibility of deliberately leaving a domestique in the autobus to protect your GC man on his second ascent, which would seem a bit dodgy.
yorkshireman - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Sir Chasm:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall) I think he might mean the caravan only goes up once, leaving the race to go up again.

Would have been quite surreal seeing Cav being chased up the Alpe by a motorised dried sausage and a truck chucking out samples of Haribo.
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:

Saving energy to try to get a march on todays stage by the sounds of it: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/evans-scuttles-overall-hopes-in-favour-of-tour-de-france-stage-hunt
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Enty - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to maxsmith:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber) with the race for GC in full flow, is there a high chance of riders like Cavendish, kittel and greipel missing the cut on adh?

Probably not - It's only like having two mountains one after the other and ADH isn't particularly hard compared to The Ventoux, Galibier etc. ADH is a borderline 1st Cat / HC climb anyway.

E
Ramblin dave - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
So Saxo-Tinkoff have got a couple of men up the road, which looks like they're setting up a springboard for Kreuzinger or Contador. But AIUI that's only any use if either of them can get clear of Froome before they catch up with the springboard.

Hmmm...
Bob Hughes - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
> So Saxo-Tinkoff have got a couple of men up the road, which looks like they're setting up a springboard for Kreuzinger or Contador. But AIUI that's only any use if either of them can get clear of Froome before they catch up with the springboard.
>
> Hmmm...

Also useful to make the Sky guys work a bit harder than maybe they otherwise would and it does no harm to Saxo team's classification. They lost the top spot to Radioshack yesterday.
malk - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to maxsmith: yes, i have to say that my views on Froome have changed after watching him in interviews. i still think he's using some novel techniques though (not yet illegal)..

anyway, my reason for posting is Sagan's super cool wheelie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSnpKwDZ_Sw
maxsmith - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to malk: by novel techniques do you mean drugs that are not illegal yet?
IainRUK - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to maxsmith:
> (In reply to malk) by novel techniques do you mean drugs that are not illegal yet?

Then they are fine..

As long as their blood parameters are within required levels.

I suspect athletes like Froome take many supplements for diet, recovery, fat removal, inflamation.
maxsmith - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: I'm not sure my stance on that really..

malk - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: are ultra-runners dope tested?
IainRUK - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to malk: Yeah, top 3 last weekend were.. it's why I had to come 4th.. backed right off last lap.. :-)

But anyone in the elite programme, which I'm not, would be subject to random testing. So I know some mountain runners who are included.
malk - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply: why don't they give timings for the climbs? anyone know Froome's time on Ventoux?
Enty - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:
> In reply: why don't they give timings for the climbs? anyone know Froome's time on Ventoux?

Annoying isn't it - would love to know the splits for the peleton.

E
IainRUK - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to maxsmith:
> (In reply to IainRUK) I'm not sure my stance on that really..

Aye.. I'm not sure myself.. I know runners who are 100% anti drugs.. yet take supplements to remove fat from their diet..

I am also against them, yet take anti-inflammtory pills on ultra's.

We all draw our own lines.
andy - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Lordy this descent road looks like something in lancashire - narrow, potholey and scary!
IainRUK - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to andy: Amazed they didn't resurface...
MG - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to link:
> (In reply to MG)
>
> [...]
>
> This is exactly why power data probably shouldn't be in the public domain.
>
> Having recorded 5 min max power significantly higher than your rivals, does not mean you are significantly better than your rivals as you stated.


Well if it means you win comfortably, as it seems it did, isn't that exactly what it means?

As I said I have no idea about Froome - there are two possibilities: he is exceptional, or he is a cheat. Obviously the former would be nice. However, given histroy I can't see why that should be taken as the default or even most likely answer. I feel rather sorry for him if he is clean but I have been told once too often that "it is different now" to believe any athelete's or team's claims at face value

malk - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to andy: cheeky bertie overtaking froome at a particularly narrow section;)
Enty - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to andy:
> (In reply to Enty) Lordy this descent road looks like something in lancashire - narrow, potholey and scary!

Aye, drove up there last week. It was supposed to get resurfaced but the residents complained.

E
yorkshireman - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to andy)
> [...]
>
> Aye, drove up there last week. It was supposed to get resurfaced but the residents complained.

Looks like they've avoided the rain too - I'm 40km south and it's heaving it down and heading north, so they might just make it.
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

What just happenned? Contador was off the front of the yellow jersey group with team mate by about 20secs before the adverts, and now they are chasing to get back on?
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Go Jens!
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Hat Dude on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Good ride by Peter Kennaugh today; suspect he found AdH a bit tougher than Snaefell ;-)
Enty - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Froome could get this stage - but wouldn't it be cool if he gave it to Porte?

E
Enty - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

Not any more :-))))

E
Calder - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Bold or foolish by Froome?
Enty - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Is Rubishy on The Alpe wearing an Ilkley CC jersey? if so someone tell him to stop running with the riders ;-)

E
Chris the Tall - on 18 Jul 2013
andrew549 on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Contador looks to be loosing quite a lot of time today
stewieatb on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

The cameraman on a TV bike just pushed over a guy running alongside. I say fair play. Idiots.
andy - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Blimey - where did Porte come from?
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:


Speaking of Rubbishy was it he who was organising ukc velo tops? Any idea what happenned to those? Havent heard anything for ages
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Froome with a problem... flat?
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Looks like hes been broken, and taken a drink and food via porte naughty boy.... Can tj hold on?
andy - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin: Isn't he allowed to take food from a teammate?
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to andy:

Yes, but porte went and got it from team car after the bottom of the alp (they arent allowed to take on food or water a certain distance from the line 10k?)
malk - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to andy: no drinks allowed on the final climb for some reason. sky also took on food bags earlier also against the rules. hmmm...
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Good result for the french
stewieatb on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:

Causes too much chaos with team cars going up and down the line to deliver drinks etc. So no drinks or food to be taken on in last 10km. Applies to sprint stages too, because of the way the speed builds as the lead-out trains get going.

Looks like Froome threw away his drink too early and/or forgot to eat during the descent from the Sarenne. Referees were going mental, but technically as it's Porte that went to the car, Froome can't be penalised IIRC. Luckily their team car was at the front (there's a priority system based on GC and other standings).
Enty - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to stewieatb:

With all the help Richie Porte gave him today I hope Froome now appreciates what a tw@t he was with Wiggo last year.

E
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

20sec penalty for froome by the looks of it.
link - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to MG:
> (In reply to link)
> [...]
>
>
> Well if it means you win comfortably, as it seems it did, isn't that exactly what it means?

No. It is one piece of an overall jigsaw. I'd say the major factor in the dominance that day was Quintana was on his own for the majority of the climb while Froome was paced for a large chunk and conserved energy.
>
> As I said I have no idea about Froome - there are two possibilities: he is exceptional, or he is a cheat. Obviously the former would be nice. However, given histroy I can't see why that should be taken as the default or even most likely answer. I feel rather sorry for him if he is clean but I have been told once too often that "it is different now" to believe any athelete's or team's claims at face value

Agree completely

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Calder - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Indeed.
Chris the Tall - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:
I have to say I hope both Froome and Porte are docked some time - rules are rules. Water (as on Ventoux) is one thing, but food is another. And when you trying to convince the world you aren't a cheat, it's a bit silly to cheat in this way.

20 seconds seems about right
a lakeland climber on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to malk:

The organisers had announced that the last point at which food and drink could be taken on board was the foot of the final climb up to Alp d'Huez. However there were neutral motorbikes around handing drinks out earlier in the stage so not sure if they pull away at that point.

ALC
balmybaldwin - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
>
> 20 seconds seems about right

I think its a bit light given the time he would have lost if he hadnt eaten. Good to see Quintana moving up

Nevis-the-cat - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

Cheek sod, that bloke's so fat he's got testers orbiting him!!

I'm in the Republic, just back from the Pyrenees and being sauteed on the Col de Mente with Interdit.

UKC Velo - I got a few quotes. It's a logistical nightmare sorting it but I'll see if I can do something about it. I wanted to use Endura as the Spukik kit was ok but a bit flmisy.
Guy - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Should I tell Froome about the shortcut on to the Col Croix Fry?
IainRUK - on 18 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
> I have to say I hope both Froome and Porte are docked some time - rules are rules. Water (as on Ventoux) is one thing, but food is another. And when you trying to convince the world you aren't a cheat, it's a bit silly to cheat in this way.
>
> 20 seconds seems about right

Aye.. but they cheated.. very dissapointed.. struggling to see how you can have a hard line on drugs and not on this.. marginal gains..
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: The more I think about this the worse it is.. he blew.. then he cheated to stop the blow..

He effectively doped... once you blow it can be devastating.

Would Wiggins have? No idea.. but Froome now has this hanging over him.

stewieatb on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Do you want to rethink that post?

Taking a gel on the final climb is equivalent to doping. Right.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to stewieatb: He's cheated.. he has a 4 minute lead..

No I don't want to re-think at all... for me he's seriously tainted his image and that of Skys, deliberate cheating..
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

> He effectively doped... once you blow it can be devastating.

You're being silly now, even the French press aren't making a fuss. The rule against "refuelling" on the last few miles is only for practical reasons as it's difficult for the cars to get through the unruly mob of spectators.

On this subject why is it that more isn't done to keep people off the road? Sometimes there's barely enough space for the bikes and certainly insufficient for any overtaking... and all that slapping on the back, for those of you who race yourself doesn't that get tiresome after a bit?
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to stewieatb: The more I think about this the worse it is.

Why have that rule? Its because its the last climb, big climb late in the day, which could really affect the rankings if people bonk and bring great drama.

He got it wrong, maybe there was a mechanical fault in the car.. which I think unlikely, its a huge race, everyone has moments of luck and bad luck, from falls to punctures that cost you time, energy or placings.

This was his bit and they simply cheated.

In the recent world championships we could only take food within 1 metre of a food station, really strict, the french were cheating, we knew they would and were told they would, but UKA were quite strict that we don't.. we're British.

People bleat on about cheating in football.. yet suddenly this is OK.. or not that bad.. if it wasn't that bad he wouldn't have cheated. Even swilling carbs gives you an instant boost from the signals to your brain that food is coming, you can kick on. Sky are masters at gaining time, look at the bike switch, they will have known the penalty was the lesser loss than the time being lost by Froome.. so they cheated.

To be honest it makes their ethical stance on drugs a bit silly. Yes drugs are worse, but they still condoned cheating. This wasn't a heat of the moment dive to the ground cheat.. it was a well thought out constructed cheat and Froome used it to gain even more time on Contador.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker: I disagree.. once you blow it is devastating.. it was the last 20km..

"Chris Froome's arm goes up ...


I'm not sure what he wanted, but he's not going to get it now, because his team car isn't allowed to help him out. Ah, Richie Porte gets some gels from the team car and hands them to Froome, who was obviously about to get the "bonk" - that's an illegal re-feed, but a clever one. Presumably it's Porte who'll be punished for it, not Froome, who now has a couple of gels to help him re-energise. There's a technical term for what just went on there. That term is "cheating".
"

The guardians take on it.. maybe its just me.. but I just dislike blatant cheating..

Re support.. yes it pisses me off sometimes.. especially when its over the top, but when you are running well its great. But say in Boston Marathon I was scorching and was running through a tunnel of people screaming and back slapping me.. just had no air.

But its also great to have the support.. that brings money and sponsorship..
davo - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

I am pretty certain that the rule against food and rink is only an organisational rule to prevent problems with team cars getting in the way as people attack.

Usually it is the last 20km - primarily so that on the flat stages when the bunch is going flat out team cars or motorbikes aren't in the way.

I don't think the rule is actually about stopping the riders eating or taking on water just to make things safe in the last hectic parts of the race.

Doesn't seem like cheating to me or anything like it.

Dave
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to davo: Of course it is cheating...

Deliberate breaking of the law of the sport.. that is cheating..

And yes it is about stopping riders getting food and water.. hence why punish them for it.

Genuinely gob smacked at the desire to ignore this and OK it.. we're british..
Chris the Tall - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
I think you are going over the top. Sky had a problem with the car, possibly due to the route taken on the days stage, and weren't able to refuel the riders at the right time. Yep they shouldn't have gone back to the car, but doing so was less disruptive than having a mechanical, so not a big deal.

But rules are rules, they broke them and got penalised. But it's not like holding on to a motorbike all the way up a climb.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: Apologies.. I am sorry.. I have a view that you don't cheat in sport and you just put up with it..

In the World Championships last week I was blocked by an Italian and missed a food grab.. the 1m rule was the 1 metre rule so I had to either double back or push on for 5 miles to the next food stop..

For me, the rules were simple, I could either lose time and double back, cheat and get someone to run back or just accept a few miles of feeling like shit.. so I did that. The cheating option just wasn't on.

I am pretty amazed. For me its not about the size of the gain or how small the cheat was, its the deliberate cheat. Genuinely amazed as I know many on this thread are the 'footballs shite they all dive and cheat' crew... yet now in your own sport?

The New NickB - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Really surprised about your attitude here, seems totally at odds with your attitude to rules and fair play in football.

My take on this is that it is a minor infringement of an organisational rule, for which they got a minor penalty. No worse than sticky bottles or using a team car to help draft a rider back into the peleton. Very different from taking PEDs.
andrew549 on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: Have you looked at the course profile and from about 108km to the end at 172.5km in the were either climbing alpe-d'Huez or descending off both of which were very narrow and so not possible for them to get back to the team car for food

Also unless they were going to pick food up on the descent then by the foot of the climb they were within 20km of the finish so couldn't refuel.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to The New NickB:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> Really surprised about your attitude here, seems totally at odds with your attitude to rules and fair play in football.
>


Well I do understand that. But football involves cheating sadly, its part of the game now. Its why I don't play it myself. I enjoy the drama of watching but for me I have no desire to train hard to have my game ruined by people who cheat...

I also think heat of the moment cheating.. diving.. is different to calculated cheating.. which this was.

As the guardian described it..

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SI - profile removed on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to stewieatb)
>
> With all the help Richie Porte gave him today I hope Froome now appreciates what a tw@t he was with Wiggo last year.
>
> E

What makes you say Froome a tw*t with Wiggo? Looking at this years tour it doesn't seem unreasonable that Froome could have taken 3 minutes in the mountains, unlike Porte who's out the running.

IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to andrew549: Yes.. I looked at the profile.. I just expect sports like this to be a level playing field once the race starts.. the other riders didn't take on extra food.

Look if you all think its OK that's fine. You aren't going to change my mind, Froome cheated.

In athletics one foot over the white line will likely be a DSQ.. look at a relay.. just two inches over the change zone and you're out..

rallymania - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:

it seemed the first two riders were manhandling some of the spectators too.

TJ nearly floored one guy... can't say i blame him.... bl00dy pedestrians ;-)
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to rallymania: Thinking about Suarez incident in the WC when people went ape shit about his cheating knocking out Ghana.. he knew the penalty.. a red card and possibly a goal from the penalty spot.. was better than a certain goal.. For me its about the principle of the matter, not the extent of the gains from the cheating.

I think its also worse because Sky are very preaching about a level playing field. They should have just let Froome bonk and drag himself to the finish.
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Your knowledge of racing is obviously far greater than mine - I'm only just managing to work out what's going on in the Tour de France, but I don't see how this was cheating in as much as it is catered for in the rules; if a rider doesn't respect the 20km rule then a penalty can be given by the judges, presumably taking into account the circumstances, and this is what happened.

He took the drink/food and was given a 20 second penalty. As I said none of French commentators have made much of it, and they are hardly less chauvinistic than others, it's all part of the game, isn't it? You play to the limit that the rules allow - he was quite open about it after all.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker: yeah of course, its strategic cheating.. someone just described it as that and I think thats a good term to use.

I do think the penalties should be harsher though.

And yes gamesmanship is part of sport, and its a continuum from fairplay to gamesmanship to cheating..

I think he had to be open about it.. but the fact they sent someone else not Froome to the car suggests they wanted him to get the penalty.. no froome.. it was quite calculated.
lowersharpnose - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Not all rule breaking is the same.

The TdF organisers gave only a 20s time penalty for this infringement. It is minor, more like a foul in football than drug assisted training.

The New NickB - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

The reason Porte went and not Froome, is because it is part of Porte's job.
Rigid Raider - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

If the French aren't making a fuss it's because what Froome did is entirely within the French idea of what's reasonable; you stretch the rules and keep stretching as far as you can.

I'm not sure what the actual rule is - surely you're allowed to take a chug of drink or a gel within the limit?
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to lowersharpnose: Of course.. but it is still wrong.. there is a strange lack of criticism on this thread though.. in fact I'm the only one getting it for labelling the cheats...

But i just find it strange when people can be so vocal against one law being broken and fine on another..

I'm actually one of the most open minded runners about drugs, would never take them I hope, but being friends and having trained with an EPO cheat I understand the motivations behind it, the justifications involved. I still think its wrong, don't get me wrong. But I think all cheating is wrong, anything which impacts on the competition being a level playing field.

Its why I liked Skys approach of hard science, hard training, meticulous preparation, control the controllables.. but likewise be prepared to man up when things go wrong and don't just break rules.
GrahamD - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

> He effectively doped... once you blow it can be devastating.

Are you smoking some yourself ? Do you think he would have got a 20s penalty for doping ? 20s is how seriously the race organisers see it.

Its not like taking gel isn't allowed, is it ? its just the picking it up thats tricky. What team Sky did they did in the open and took the penalty accordingly.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rigid Raider:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> If the French aren't making a fuss it's because what Froome did is entirely within the French idea of what's reasonable; you stretch the rules and keep stretching as far as you can.

We were told this.. the french will cheat.. they do cheat.. we don't.

In the world trail champs I had two on me who cut every corner on the trail.. cutting inside taped corners.. taking 10's of meters of the course.. I hope its on TV as it was being filmed and I had a typically British footballer style rant at them for it.. it embarrassed them enough that the slowed off and waited for me to catch up..

Kilian has done it in a trail race in America and also broke the rules in his first UTMB win.. stronger race directors would have DSQ him for both, but due to name, sponsorship pressure he wasn't.. I thought it was appaling.

Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

WAAAAH WAAAAH WAAAH!

Last football season, Manchester United players CHEATED 51 times. They CHEATED and were caught and were punished with 50 yellow cards and 1 red card.

CHEATS I say, CHEATS. Drum them out of the game.

Or perhaps, just go with the process?
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD: I was taking the piss there...

They cheated.. end of story. Apologies if my anti-cheating stance impacts on your sensibilities...
Quiddity - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

> In athletics one foot over the white line will likely be a DSQ.. look at a relay.. just two inches over the change zone and you're out..

But the TdF is just not like that - minor rules get infringed all the time. Technically, whenever you see a mechanic leaning out of a car window fixing a bike on the move, that's illegal, yet all the teams do it. Ditto sticky bottles, drafting team cars, riders getting a push from spectators after going off the road, etc.

> For example yesterday Sylvain Chavanel was fined 100 Swiss Francs for ravitaillement portant atteinte à l’image du cyclisme or “feeding that damages the image of cycling.”

> 'The other day Tony Martin was fined CHF 2,000 for having world champion logos on his time trial bike.'
http://inrng.com/2013/07/tour-de-france-rider-fines-penalties/

The blog I linked above argued this is basically a revenue source for the UCI, with fines making up about 3% of its annual income.

I really respect you and your stance on being whiter than white in your own sport, but as a TdF spectator I can't get worked up about this. The rules are many and arcane, the minor ones are broken routinely and the fines are treated as a cost of doing business by all of the teams. Likening this to doping I think is ridiculous. You could argue that the rules should be enforced more strictly but the argument there is with the UCI.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino: See my earlier post..

I also never said DSQ...

Eh? So just say nothing.. what a strange and rediclous notion.. go with the process... come on grow up.

Genuinely amazed..

Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

The growing up required is not in this ball court but in your phoney self-righteous rant about "cheating"

Things happen in sports - like fouls in football, and feeding at the wrong time on a tour stage. There are penalties applied. A yellow card in football, a time penalty in the tour.

Part of the game. If you want it to simply be labelled as cheating then go ahead. Fortunately you don't run the tour - much more sensible people do.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Quiddity: I compared it to doping just to wind some of the 'oh Sky are whiter than white'.. I knew I'd get a reaction..

It was a minor rule break..

And yes its part of sport.. as I said, as a footballer for many years I got sick of it, stamping, cheating, threatening. I was just getting more and more wound up and no longer enjoyed the sport so walked away.

I do love the purity of endurance sports.. I love seeing people get it wrong.. but also those who tough it out. This year I raced a 100k against a sub 2:20 marathoner.. we set off and he went off at a fast pace.. on a 2.5 km lap he lapped me twice.. I think by half way.. he then blew up.. and I lapped him twice back and maybe even a third.. but he still ran 7:36... it was so impressive watching this elite runner just man up and drag it out.. I think it was one of the most impressive things I saw that day.. he finished 17 minutes or so behind me, but I had so much respect for how he was willing to suffer.

So, for me, I have lost some, not all at all, by a long way, respect for Froome here. Likewise though I don't lose all respect for drugs cheats, certainly more than I do for Froomes cheating.
Escher - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: Feeding outside the permitted zone is a fairly regular occurrence, the teams know the penalty for doing it and if they need to do it they will and take the punishment on the chin. The penalty is there to stop routine abuse by everybody for safety reasons, to prevent a free for all, but if someone needs food theyll get it, take the punishment, drama over, sometimes the rule is changed like it was on the Ventoux where drinks could be taken for a longer period up the climb due to the heat. It isn't comparable to picking up food from a feed stop on an ultra, they are completely different situations. There's many 'accepted' forms of cheating in the pro peloton, drafting cars in a chase back on, magic spanner etc, just don't be doing it too blatantly or do it all the time. All the teams get up to it, not just Sky. Your whole I'm shocked at Sky, level playing field etc etc, smacks of a little hatred for them and being unaware of what sorts of things go on that all the teams get up to, including illegal feeds.

No mention here of the rumour that Contador swapped his bike a few minutes after the commissaires announced over race radio that they were going to do a spot check of bike weights at the end. Was Contador riding an illegally light bike? Now that would be cheating.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> The growing up required is not in this ball court but in your phoney self-righteous rant about "cheating"
>
> Things happen in sports - like fouls in football, and feeding at the wrong time on a tour stage. There are penalties applied. A yellow card in football, a time penalty in the tour.
>
> Part of the game. If you want it to simply be labelled as cheating then go ahead. Fortunately you don't run the tour - much more sensible people do.

Brilliant.. that is basically the original excuse for doping.. We dope to survive.. its sensible.. superb!
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IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Escher:
> (In reply to IainRUK) Feeding outside the permitted zone is a fairly regular occurrence, the teams know the penalty for doing it and if they need to do it they will and take the punishment on the chin. The penalty is there to stop routine abuse by everybody for safety reasons, to prevent a free for all, but if someone needs food theyll get it, take the punishment, drama over, sometimes the rule is changed like it was on the Ventoux where drinks could be taken for a longer period up the climb due to the heat. It isn't comparable to picking up food from a feed stop on an ultra, they are completely different situations. There's many 'accepted' forms of cheating in the pro peloton, drafting cars in a chase back on, magic spanner etc, just don't be doing it too blatantly or do it all the time. All the teams get up to it, not just Sky. Your whole I'm shocked at Sky, level playing field etc etc, smacks of a little hatred for them and being unaware of what sorts of things go on that all the teams get up to, including illegal feeds.
>
> No mention here of the rumour that Contador swapped his bike a few minutes after the commissaires announced over race radio that they were going to do a spot check of bike weights at the end. Was Contador riding an illegally light bike? Now that would be cheating.

There was a story someone threw their bike down the gorge to avoid it being weighed...

Its all cheating..
davo - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

As I said I am pretty certain that it is only to keep the team cars out of the way and prevent accidents. It is not about stopping them eating or drinking.

They can take food on any of the climbs or even in the last 20kms. They just have to already be carrying it.

Yep he broke a rule and has been punished. Cheating? Seems a bit of a harsh interpretation

Dave
Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Nope. How about you read the words on the screen, not the ones in your head.

I never mentioned doping. I was talking about Froome's eating yesterday and nothing else. It's comparable to a foul in football that draws a yellow card. It is not comparable to doping.

Escher - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Escher: Seems Contadors bikes all were weighed, surprised by the amount of bike swapping going on though, thought they only really did it for mechanicals, but after the ITT yesterday and today's checking, seems not:- http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/tour-de-france/froome-contador-others-targeted-for-bike-weigh...
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino: Jesus christ..

1) not all yellows are the same.. some are just honest attempts at the ball.. not deliberate breaking of the law to gain..

2) sometimes it maybe..

3) It is all still cheating.. I'd have more respect for your arguments if you accepted that notion..

Had contador been given an late gel, whilst bonking, and gained time on Froome I think we'd see rants.

I do think the penalty should exceed the time saved by the breaking of the rule.. so whilst I wouldn't want Froome DSQ I would have liked to see a good minute or two added.

Look at f1.. a minor cheat there is still a much bigger time penalty.
Pyreneenemec - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Couldn't you let it go ?

The guy knew the risks, time-penalty and finish the race with a much needed boost, or crawl to the finish and lose out to someone who has clearly been doped, Contador.

Furthermore, when you consider the Tour as a whole, what Froome did is so minor as to be of no importance.

Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

It's hard to say whether or not 20 seconds is valid or not.

Froome might have actually been fine and not lost that much time. He was 5k from the finish - how long did it take for the food to get into his system and start giving him a benefit and therefore how much did he actually benefit from it? That's impossible to say. The organisers have decreed 20 secs as a penalty.

I do not accept the notion that Froome is suddenly a "cheat", and nor do many people here. If it had been any other rider, even C*ntador, I would still not be over-reacting.
davo - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
>
> Had contador been given an late gel, whilst bonking, and gained time on Froome I think we'd see rants.
>

I seriously don't think so. Bruce makes the point that even the French commentators think it is a minor infringement. No one seriously considers it a big deal - as has been mentioned by others lots of minor rules get infringed on the tour each day. This is just minor infringement - he has been punished and everyone has moved on.

Dave
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK: And yes I accept that Man U cheat.. and cheating is part and parcel of professional sport. Its why I have probably the most forgiving view on PEDS of any runner I know. i totally understand why, the pressures, but also have huge respect for them anyway, these are elite professionals, so Armstrong, Contador, Froome, Wiggins, just so much respect for them. Of course you lose some when they cheat, and some cheats are worse than others. But it is still cheating and I'm quite amazed at how people are excusing it.

IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to davo: That's fine.. we all have our own views. It is minor, but I just would like to see the infringement gains be exceeded by the penalty..

And that the french don't see it as a big deal is not a great starting point.. :-)
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> It's hard to say whether or not 20 seconds is valid or not.
>
> Froome might have actually been fine and not lost that much time. He was 5k from the finish - how long did it take for the food to get into his system and start giving him a benefit and therefore how much did he actually benefit from it?

OK.. I think you have a seriously poor understanding of exercise physiology.

The boost is instantaneous..
davo - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

I can't honestly tell if you are just looking for a reaction?

Comparing Armstrong (an amazingly bare faced liar, cheat and deceiver) to Wiggins and Froome is bizarre.

A minor rule was broken yesterday - nothing more.

Dave
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> Couldn't you let it go ?
>
> The guy knew the risks, time-penalty and finish the race with a much needed boost, or crawl to the finish and lose out to someone who has clearly been doped, Contador.
>
> Furthermore, when you consider the Tour as a whole, what Froome did is so minor as to be of no importance.

Yes.. I just find such arguments so so strange though.. the our cheating is less.. its not what Froome did to be honest.. its the 'we don't cheat as much as the rest'.. which is what I just find so strange...

You have summed it up perfectly.. we are just cheating cheaters.. so its OK..

davo - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

As I said I am certain the rule is not to prevent eating but instead to stop accidents. If you think otherwise I would be keen to see the rule and the reasoning. I personally can't be bothered finding it.

As for the French not thinking it important it was only an aside.

Dave
Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

I'm not convinced about that.

As someone who is doing long-distance marathon training I know that the gels I take do not give me an instantaneous boost and I need to take them some distance before I really need them.

On one run I take my first gel approx 1.5 miles from the hilly section - not at the foot of the hill as I wouldn't see the benefit right away.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to davo:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> I can't honestly tell if you are just looking for a reaction?
>
> Comparing Armstrong (an amazingly bare faced liar, cheat and deceiver) to Wiggins and Froome is bizarre.
>
> A minor rule was broken yesterday - nothing more.
>
> Dave

You totally misunderstood my point then. Its that regardless I have huge respect for them. I trained with an EPO cheat. What they did was wrong, but I saw the human side, but they also trained their arse off.

As above.. yes minor.. my issue is with those who just say its OK to cheat.. if its minor.. thats how doping started.. likewise when Ramps said its about being sensible.. that was exactly why doping started.. not to win.. but to not overly suffer.. to survive.. it was the tours fault for being so tough.
Chris the Tall - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
Moving on ....

We are two days into the hardest 4 day stretch in recent tour history and both Froome and Bertie looked in trouble yesterday, whilst Quintana looked very fresh for an 80 year-old (has anyone checked his birth certificate - should he really be best young rider!)

With no respite today will Froome continue to suffer the results of his bonking yesterday ?
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino: elite marathoners swill carb drinks and spit out.. your brain gets a signal.. it says push on food is coming.. you don't need the carbs in your stomach.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
> Moving on ....
>
> We are two days into the hardest 4 day stretch in recent tour history and both Froome and Bertie looked in trouble yesterday, whilst Quintana looked very fresh for an 80 year-old (has anyone checked his birth certificate - should he really be best young rider!)
>
> With no respite today will Froome continue to suffer the results of his bonking yesterday ?

I think thats why they did what they did yesterday... not for the ADH but because of the impact of a serious bonk on subsequent days..
Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Interesting, but if it boost is instaneous why spit out - why not actually feed the system? Sounds a touch counter-productive or did I miss something?
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IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino:

Carbohydrate sensing in the human mouth: effects on exercise performance and brain activity

E. S. Chambers1,
M. W. Bridge1,
D. A. Jones1,2

The Journal of Physiology
Volume 587, Issue 8, pages 1779–1794, April 2009

Exercise studies have suggested that the presence of carbohydrate in the human mouth activates regions of the brain that can enhance exercise performance but direct evidence of such a mechanism is limited. The first aim of the present study was to observe how rinsing the mouth with solutions containing glucose and maltodextrin, disguised with artificial sweetener, would affect exercise performance. The second aim was to use functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) to identify the brain regions activated by these substances. In Study 1A, eight endurance-trained cyclists ( 60.8 ± 4.1 ml kg−1 min−1) completed a cycle time trial (total work = 914 ± 29 kJ) significantly faster when rinsing their mouths with a 6.4% glucose solution compared with a placebo containing saccharin (60.4 ± 3.7 and 61.6 ± 3.8 min, respectively, P= 0.007). The corresponding fMRI study (Study 1B) revealed that oral exposure to glucose activated reward-related brain regions, including the anterior cingulate cortex and striatum, which were unresponsive to saccharin. In Study 2A, eight endurance-trained cyclists ( 57.8 ± 3.2 ml kg−1 min−1) tested the effect of rinsing with a 6.4% maltodextrin solution on exercise performance, showing it to significantly reduce the time to complete the cycle time trial (total work = 837 ± 68 kJ) compared to an artificially sweetened placebo (62.6 ± 4.7 and 64.6 ± 4.9 min, respectively, P= 0.012). The second neuroimaging study (Study 2B) compared the cortical response to oral maltodextrin and glucose, revealing a similar pattern of brain activation in response to the two carbohydrate solutions, including areas of the insula/frontal operculum, orbitofrontal cortex and striatum. The results suggest that the improvement in exercise performance that is observed when carbohydrate is present in the mouth may be due to the activation of brain regions believed to be involved in reward and motor control. The findings also suggest that there may be a class of so far unidentified oral receptors that respond to carbohydrate independently of those for sweetness.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino: because the stomach is too slow.. if you are inside the last 20 just get the boost.. don't take on weight.. don't upset the stomach.
Mr Fuller on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: If Froome's anything like me (okay, he clearly isn't...), I'd be feeling the effects of bonking like that for at least another day. I find once I'm totally empty and keep going it blasts me out for a while. I think he'll need a lot of protection today, especially considering the two HC climbs at the start of the day.

I think Quintana could get second in the next few days, and I don't think he's going to finish overall too far behind Froome. He needs Movistar to work really hard for him though.
Quiddity - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Let's be clear, the rule was broken not by feeding but Porte getting the gel from the team car. If he had had it on him, it would be fair game.

Also I think that minor opportunistic violations that are done openly - eg. drafting team cars - are categorically a different thing to doping which is systematic and covert.

Let's agree to disagree and move on now.
Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Right - but why not do both? Swill to get the brain reaction and feed to ensure the system has enough?

(Still aint a cheat, by the way)
Quiddity - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> With no respite today will Froome continue to suffer the results of his bonking yesterday ?

I think the other teams will sense blood and really try to put the boot in today. It's going to be mega.
Calder - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to davo:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> ...
>
> I don't think the rule is actually about stopping the riders eating or taking on water just to make things safe in the last hectic parts of the race.
>

Things'll get interesting if everyone suddenly decides to ignore the rule, won't they. The rule is there, most obey it, and one man breaking it gives an unfair advantage (and I suspect more than 20 seconds worth). Kind of spoils it a bit, no?

I think Froome's lost a fair bit of face here. I mean, he moans about Bertie going down a hill too fast for him, but then is quite happy to break rules for his own gain.
davo - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Hmmm... not sure this thread is the place for a massive debate on performance enhancing drug use.

But briefly I reckon it is possible to respect the effort, the commitment and the training but still not respect the person for the choice they have made regarding use of drugs.

For example I think it is possible to make an argument along the lines of drug users are stealing away the chances of those who believe they should compete clean. To me this is what Armstrong and a huge number of others did. They took away the opportunities of those who wanted to stay clean and made it pretty much impossible to be a top cyclist without epo, okay you could certainly be a good domestique without it but much more - I don't know?

Also having read Armstrong's books and been a believer in him it is difficult to reconcile the comparison between his actions and those of Froome yesterday. I know you are trying to make a black and white argument here but I really don't think it works. Armstrong, lied and cheated for over a decade, he wrote books that inspired millions but most of the basic facts were absolute untruths.

Yes Froome broke a rule yesterday. He didn't lie about it, he accepted the punishment. It was a minor rule break and was completely out in the open. He has been punished for this therefore I don't think this is cheating. To me cheating would be trying to get away with it and not take the punishment.

Dave
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Mr Fuller: Exactly.. CTT makes the best point on the thread about that. Sky knew Froome was in the shit. he could make the last 20 but that would have seriously cost him.

I think it said two gels, which is more than enough to get him to the top, they were looking at recovery, him being in a state for today. Clever move.

Sky are superb at how they manage the tour. Really are masters of sports science side. They react so quick.

But it is also why I love the tour, the drama and the cheating.. even the drugs. I'd hate to participate because of it, but look at some of the great moments in the sport, Pantani and Armstrong..

Still they cheated.. and it was minor, I just find it strange how quickly people are OKing.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to davo: I don't think I am making it black and white at all. The opposite, I see a continuum from fair play to PEDS.. we all draw the line.. I actually draw the line much higher than most maybe, but after that I think I am strangely much more forgiving than 99% of people on this thread. Its quite strange how we all draw different lines. But I do admit my view on drugs was changed by training with a PED banned athlete.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> Right - but why not do both? Swill to get the brain reaction and feed to ensure the system has enough?
>
> (Still aint a cheat, by the way)

Froome needed to recover.. so he needed it in his stomach. A marathon runner just needs to make that line and has 6 months to sort himself out.. 100g additional weight isn't much but why risk it.

A marathon runner will know, an elite one anyway, exactly how long they can cheat their system before the brain eventually twigs on and their is actually nothing left in the system.
davo - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
>
> But it is also why I love the tour, the drama and the cheating.. even the drugs. I'd hate to participate because of it, but look at some of the great moments in the sport, Pantani and Armstrong..
>


I am amazed at this.

I used to love the tour and be a believer. That statement up there about Armstrong and Pantani is why I lost a lot of love for the tour and cycling. Those feats were not Armstrong and Pantani. They were Armstrong plus a load of pharmaceutical advantage versus Pantani with a load of pharmaceutical advantage. They then proceeded to spout on atthe end of each stage about how they were clean and that Arstrong was the most tested athlete on the planet.

Those guys and Armstrong took away from the sport of cycling and things like the tour and the damage they did will be felt for years to come.
a lakeland climber on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino:

It takes time for the stomach to absorb things and extreme exercise slows that even more as the body is diverting energy from digestion to the muscles. Froome was what? 15 minutes from the finish - probably not enough time for the gel to be physically effective - he still needed Porte to pace him to the line, but it was probably psychologically effective and it may well have prevented damage for today.

Sky did seem to have some lame excuse about the car not being able to get to them before the start of the climb but they then said "we broke the rules and got punished". It's not cheating but it's not being within the rules either.

ALC
Escher - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Mr Fuller: Its going to be interesting for sure. Sky were on the front a lot yesterday, Stannard and G went out the back fairly early after then Sitsou, Lopez and Kennaugh did big turns. The last time they did that Froome was isolated pretty quickly the day after. I think a lot will depend on Porte and whether his performance yesterday was about coming really good in the third week or whether he used a lot of energy up on the day helping Froome, he did an awful lot of work. But then so did Saxo, Roche and the other Saxo rider did a bit too much early in the stage. Bertie looked cooked too, Rogers finished the stage strongly. There was a lot of suffering on the final climb. Movistar also put a lot in, Valverde finished well too.

If I had to call it I'd say Movistar and Saxo will both try and attack today but not have the legs. I think team wise they're all going to be as shagged as each other and no-one is going to have the legs to isloate anyone else. Probably going to be very wrong though! Going to be interesting to watch either way.
Mike Highbury - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Quiddity:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> [...]
>
> I think the other teams will sense blood and really try to put the boot in today. It's going to be mega.

Stepping over the crosses of St George, let's hope that Rodriguez can make a real move on his first GT.
Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Ahh got it - you were referring specifically to marathon runners. Thanks.

It's an interesting topic - especially as I build up the distances and have to be really thoughtful of how I fuel myself.

Anyhow - TDF isn't over yet and if Froome loses by less than 20 seconds you can satisfy yourself that his manipulation of the rules and penalties didn't work.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to davo: Come on.. the Armstrong battles with Pantani.. superb drama.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino: Yes, its just this instantaneous boost. years ago I went to see one of our sports scientists because I knew I was getting a boost which couldn't be explained by digestion times.. and he said then that it was well known, and presumably some sort of signal. But its only been the last few years that they've finally shown it. I actually thought it pyschological, but there is a very physiologicaly sound explanation.

lowersharpnose - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

He effectively doped...

Wrong - and you know it. I thought you had already backtracked on this, but you keep bringing it up.

Again, a 20s penalty shows you how seriously this minor infringement is regarded. It is less serious than wearing an incorrect shirt.

davo - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

At the time yes - but it was a drama - not real. Just two doped up pharmaceutical monsters fighting each other.

I know and understand that it is a continuum between supplements and performance enhancing drugs but there is quite a clear line. Anything that is on the banned list can not be used.

At the time those sporting performances were massively inspiring to me and loads of others. They showed what training, effort and dedication and the will to win could do. In reality they showed what massive volumes of training supplemented with drugs that allowed incredible recovery times, the body to sustain larger training loads than before and gave an enormous physiological advantage could do.

I can sympathise with the choices they made and the choices of others like David Millar. However personally I would ban all of them including Millar and people like him for life from the sport. Not just a simple 2 year ban at the age of 23 and then 2 years of training and then back in the game.

Anyway I guess we will just have to disagree.

So psyched to watch the tour today and tomorrow

Dave
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parkovski - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Sincerely, thanks for the coffee time entertainment everyone!

You have to bear in mind that the purpose and spirit of the rule is to stop late feeding causing chaos in bunch finishes. This wasn't a risk in yesterday's stage. You should also consider that due to a problem with the team car* and the very narrow nature of the descent they were without support for a long while before. You could argue that this is their fault of course

There are diverse meanings to the word "cheating", especially in any sport where there are a lot of rules and regulations. The more rules there are the more acceptable it is to infringe on some of them a little (e.g. compare Rugby Union with Running). You really need to recognise that the culture surrounding rules, penalties and the acceptability of infringement is very variable between sports. I would say that this incident is very low on the scale, barely warrants the term "cheating", and since there was no attempt to deceive it's nothing to get too worked up about.

*Assuming they aren't bullsh*tting.
Rampikino - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

I'm sure Mr Froome knows his own body way better than I know mine. I currently estimate the impact of a gel (about 11 mins by my reckoning) whereas I'm sure Team Sky have got it all down to seconds.

Today looks brutal - TDF won/lost today?
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to lowersharpnose: I know. I am sorry.. It was late.. I'd had a beer and thought I'd try to wind someone up with a stick up their arse...

Back on subject... no it shows how strange french rules are.. like with Bentners huge fine for advertising on his boxer shorts.. professional sport now values revenue more than fair play..

IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Rampikino:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
>
>
> Today looks brutal - TDF won/lost today?

I thought ysterday maybe have been.. but today after yesterday.. just brutal.

You'd have thought froome has it now..
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to parkovski:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>
> Sincerely, thanks for the coffee time entertainment everyone!
>
> You have to bear in mind that the purpose and spirit of the rule is to stop late feeding causing chaos in bunch finishes. This wasn't a risk in yesterday's stage. You should also consider that due to a problem with the team car* and the very narrow nature of the descent they were without support for a long while before. You could argue that this is their fault of course
>
> There are diverse meanings to the word "cheating", especially in any sport where there are a lot of rules and regulations. The more rules there are the more acceptable it is to infringe on some of them a little (e.g. compare Rugby Union with Running). You really need to recognise that the culture surrounding rules, penalties and the acceptability of infringement is very variable between sports. I would say that this incident is very low on the scale, barely warrants the term "cheating", and since there was no attempt to deceive it's nothing to get too worked up about.
>
> *Assuming they aren't bullsh*tting.

Deffo.. but that is why sport is so great.. the drama of the tour, riders are on the edge.

Re the car.. bullshit for me.. be interesting to find out exactly how transparent they were...

But it also comes down to the country the event is in. The french have much more laxical views on 'cheating' than in the UK.. back to when Kilian J cut corners in the speed goat.. in france that's normal.. they ran most of the course.. in the USA that's very strictly cheating.. and in Germany..


tatz45 - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Escher:
Anyone know the rational behind a minimum weight on the bikes? Just to make sure it's a level playing field so richer teams can't gain an advantage? Seems unlikely. Seems to me that if the technology is there for a light bike then the best cyclists should be able to use it and it would be an advert for the manufacturers.
IainRUK - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to tatz45: I presumed safety.. thinner and thinner frames.
a lakeland climber on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to tatz45:

It's an old rule and was set in the days of steel framed bikes. The rationale behind it is that below the minimum weight (6.8Kg) the bike frame won't be strong enough to withstand the stresses and strains of racing. Surprisingly it also applies to track bikes so these often have weight added to bring them up to the minimum weight.

The UCI are quite "conservative" with regards what they allow but there are also some really arcane rules.

ALC
Mr Fuller on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to tatz45: I'm sure they could make 'disposable' bikes if they wanted, with a frame weighing 0.5 kg and a total weight of 4 kilos. Safety, and the fact that's so-removed from what a normal fan can ride, are the main reasons I believe.

It's a good rule, though I think it's a bit harsh on riders who are shorter, as someone like Quintana clearly needs a smaller and lighter bike than Froome. I don't think it's a sliding scale based on rider height, either.
GrahamD - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to tatz45:

I think it was in response to the very radical time trial bikes being used a few years back and there was a concious decision to try and make the pro bike much closer to a 'real bike' you and I could own.
parkovski - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

I agree that different countries take rule breaking less seriously - but I think the difference between sports is greater. How serious an infringement is determined by the penalty for being caught. In a sport like fell running it is pretty simple - you're either within the rules or you're DQ'd. But imagine if in a mountain marathon you were simply fined a minute, or even 10, for each item on the kit list you weren't carrying - people would do it, and it would be part of the game. In a score event if I'm knowingly 5 minutes late so I can pick up the 100 pointer and get a higher score is that cheating?

Just read about the speed goat thing. Ethics aside, I think this is an illustration why races that are point to point with free choice of route are much better.
a lakeland climber on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

There's not that much difference in weight between a frame for a 6ft rider and a 5ft rider as the tubing wall in the middle of each length is only 3mm thick.

Anyway, here's today's race notes: https://twitter.com/cyclingweekly/status/358154394329567232/photo/1

Gulp!

ALC
SteveRi - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
I think you're right, there was a move to try and make racing more about the athlete than the technology, witness all the shenanigans about the hour record, Obree, 'Athlete's Hour' etc. There was quite a fuss from small manufacturers about the impossibility of getting their stuff UCI approved and the realistic-ness of the 'available to buy retail' rules. Clearly a lot has changed. The TT bikes in particular are starting to get weird again and using more complex 'tube' formations that I'm sure would have been made illegal post Indurain era. Look at the cowled and hidden brakes on Sky's bikes ...we can't buy them.
Guy - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: It's going to be an interesting stage, there is a lot of flat after the Madeleine. The Tamie is a nice consistent climb mostly under the cover of trees and the descent the other side is just a big gear spinning mission. The route to the bottom of the Croix Fry is also very easy in alpine terms but then you hit the Croix Fry and it ramps up sharply. This climb is truly picturesque and the road is a lot skinnier than the rest of the climbs today. The descent down to le Grand Bornand starts of a little technical but then opens out and unless you have a decent lead I would think a couple of people working together would close someone down fairly easily here.

So Movistar have people up the road already I wonder if that is stepping stone for Quintana to get him through the "flats" to the bottom of the Croix Fry if he can jump clear on the Madeleine?

lowersharpnose - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

I know. I am sorry.. It was late.. I'd had a beer and thought I'd try to wind someone up with a stick up their arse...

Bugger an apology, I thought I was going to get you backed in a corner. Cheers.
Bob Hughes - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to davo:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
> [...]
>
>
> I am amazed at this.
>
> I used to love the tour and be a believer. That statement up there about Armstrong and Pantani is why I lost a lot of love for the tour and cycling. Those feats were not Armstrong and Pantani. They were Armstrong plus a load of pharmaceutical advantage versus Pantani with a load of pharmaceutical advantage. They then proceeded to spout on atthe end of each stage about how they were clean and that Arstrong was the most tested athlete on the planet.
>
> Those guys and Armstrong took away from the sport of cycling and things like the tour and the damage they did will be felt for years to come.

Not really. The TdF has always had doping. In the early days it was nitroglycerine, strychnine and brandy. Of the 25 or so riders who have won the Tour de France since 1961, 17 have either tested positive for, or admitted to using, doping of some form or another. Armstrong and Pantani were just continuing a long tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Tour_de_France
Enty - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Can someone please have a word with Ryder Hesjedal about his sunglasses please?

E
MikeTS - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

> I think its also worse because Sky are very preaching about a level playing field. They should have just let Froome bonk and drag himself to the finish.

I don't get it. In football a foul is not cheating. It's an act that can result in a punishment on a scale from a quiet warning through free-kick to being sent off and suspended. This depends on the gravity of the foul.
So here did the authorities gave the equivalent of a free-kick? Is there a scale of penalties in cycling, or is it all or nothing?

Calder - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> Can someone please have a word with Ryder Hesjedal about his sunglasses please?
>
> E

I think they're heaps better than those that Froome and Geraint wear.
Guy - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Reckon David Millar dared him.
Escher - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes: The EPO era was a bit different though
Bob Hughes - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> Can someone please have a word with Ryder Hesjedal about his sunglasses please?
>
> E

They're POC. Pretty cool.

I think they're the kind of sunnies that look a lot cooler off the bike. Kind of the opposite of nearly anything from Oakley
Ramblin dave - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to MikeTS:
So you'd say that committing a professional foul if you're willing to take the red card is legitimate football tactic? That the punishment makes it alright and in the spirit of the game to do it if you think it's worth it, rather than being an attempt to discourage people from doing it because it's against the spirit of the game?

I dunno, I'm intuitively not happy about this gel business because it feels like like they messed up and then made a cynical decision based on the fact that the punishment (losing twenty seconds) won't outweight the gains from the infringement (not blowing up and losing minutes). On the other hand, none of Froome's rivals seem to be particularly up in arms about it, so I guess I'll accept that in this case that is seen as a legitimate thing to do.
Bob Hughes - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Escher:
> (In reply to Bob Hughes) The EPO era was a bit different though

In what sense?
MikeTS - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
> So you'd say that committing a professional foul if you're willing to take the red card is legitimate football tactic?


>
> I dunno, I'm intuitively not happy about this gel business because it feels like like they messed up and then made a cynical decision based on the fact that the punishment (losing twenty seconds) won't outweight the gains from the infringement (not blowing up and losing minutes).

One of the reasons so called professional fouls exist is that the punishment is predictable, and so the player can make a cold judgement call.

Did Froome know at the time the penalty would be 20 seconds? If not, and he risked more, than his action is in a different category.

My original question was just one about whether there is a difference between the two sports as to how they administer rules?
MikeTS - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to MikeTS:

My other thought, a bit wild, is that if Froome publicly declares he would bonk without a gel, then this weakens the case against him being a druggy super biker.
Enty - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes:
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> They're POC. Pretty cool.
>
> I think they're the kind of sunnies that look a lot cooler off the bike.

On a 14 year old Nu-Raver wearing a music not missiles T-shirt. Not on a 32 year old Giro d'Italia winner.

E

JamButty - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Ramblin dave:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
> So you'd say that committing a professional foul if you're willing to take the red card is legitimate football tactic? That the punishment makes it alright and in the spirit of the game to do it if you think it's worth it, rather than being an attempt to discourage people from doing it because it's against the spirit of the game?
>
> I dunno, I'm intuitively not happy about this gel business because it feels like like they messed up and then made a cynical decision based on the fact that the punishment (losing twenty seconds) won't outweight the gains from the infringement (not blowing up and losing minutes). On the other hand, none of Froome's rivals seem to be particularly up in arms about it, so I guess I'll accept that in this case that is seen as a legitimate thing to do.

Whilst not really agreeing with Iain on the doping comparisons I totally agree with him on the point of it being blatant cheating. The comparison of a professional foul is spot on. They knew the consequences and one of the reasons to send Porte was in theory he'd be the only one to be penalised. As others have said it unfortunately happens in many sports, but it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
Minor infringement maybe, but still cheating

JamButty - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to MikeTS:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
>
> My other thought, a bit wild, is that if Froome publicly declares he would bonk without a gel, then this weakens the case against him being a druggy super biker.

Ha, that had crossed my mind as well ;-). Bunch of cynics we all are!


Mike Highbury - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to JamButty:
> (In reply to MikeTS)
> [...]
>
> Ha, that had crossed my mind as well ;-). Bunch of cynics we all are!

Not really. www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfLQVNavI8Q

Escher - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bob Hughes: Pre-EPO the drugs they took weren't exactly performance enhancing like EPO or CERA are, they would be used to mask the pain or allow you to endure a stage.

The EPO era meant heavy riders could power up long climbs like a skinny Colombian, suddenly mediocre riders could ride in a way that they just couldn't before and you'd get the super human climbing performances that we witnessed by Pantani, Armstrong etc, mentioned above.

So the poster above raised the point that those EPO and blood doping performances were unreal and was talking about the EPO era as being the ruin of pro cycling. Prior to that the drugs they took did not have anywhere near such a dramatic effect, so the playing field was much more level. So no, not all PED's are the same.
Bob Hughes - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Bob Hughes)
> [...]
>
> On a 14 year old Nu-Raver wearing a music not missiles T-shirt. Not on a 32 year old Giro d'Italia winner.
>
> E

LIKE
Bob Hughes - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Escher:
> (In reply to Bob Hughes) Pre-EPO the drugs they took weren't exactly performance enhancing like EPO or CERA are, they would be used to mask the pain or allow you to endure a stage.
>

30s - 50s: drugs that would dilate the blood vessels
50s: hormones
60s: amphetamines
70s: steroids


>
> So the poster above raised the point that those EPO and blood doping performances were unreal and was talking about the EPO era as being the ruin of pro cycling. Prior to that the drugs they took did not have anywhere near such a dramatic effect, so the playing field was much more level. So no, not all PED's are the same.

But they are all performance enhancing, which is the point. Otherwise they wouldn't be banned.




captain paranoia - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to JamButty:

> but it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

No, no, no, no, no.

It's supposed to leave a nice, glucosey taste in the mouth to fool the brain into allowing you to continue exertion. IainRUK's provided references and everything...
andy - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to captain paranoia: From the BBC's commentary:

"Richie Porte (who else?) and David Lopez are the Team Sky men chaperoning Chris Froome to the finish line.

A word to the wise for Porte - if Chris asks you to fetch him a choc ice in the last few kilometres of today's stage, make sure you say no. You may be his best mate, but it will cost you £140 (and 20 seconds)."
rallymania - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to andy:

actually it'll only cost him 20seconds

i think most of the team leaders split all their prize money with their team mates... and i'm pretty sure froome will pay ritchies fines for him :-)
Bruce Hooker - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to JamButty:

> They knew the consequences and one of the reasons to send Porte was in theory he'd be the only one to be penalised.

They were both docked 20 seconds... but seriously you lot, instead of going on about yesterday, the end of the race is approaching in a cloud burst though some pretty glorious alpine scenery... wouldn't you be better watching the race?

... and that from someone who is only intermittently interested in such things :-)
andy - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker: It looks like Salford at the moment...
Bob Hughes - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to JamButty)
>
> [...]
>
> They were both docked 20 seconds... but seriously you lot, instead of going on about yesterday, the end of the race is approaching in a cloud burst though some pretty glorious alpine scenery... wouldn't you be better watching the race?
>
> ... and that from someone who is only intermittently interested in such things :-)

It's been a pretty dull stage so far from what I can tell from the TdF updates (at work, no TV). Saxo-Tinkoff have locked down the peloton and seem to be holding on for the team prize. No sign of fight in Contador.
yorkshireman - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> (In reply to JamButty)
>
> [...]
>
> ... but seriously you lot, instead of going on about yesterday, the end of the race is approaching in a cloud burst though some pretty glorious alpine scenery... wouldn't you be better watching the race?

I've been in front of the TV since 11am while 'working' on my laptop. Luckily only one 30 min conference call today to spoil things, rather than the barrage of insensitive meetings yesterday that spoilt Alpe d'Huez.

However we keep getting powercuts of a few seconds interrupting everything as the thunderstorm that is currently hitting the tour is passing over us first.

I find that cycling is ideally suited and much improved with social media. Following twitter and message boards while watching a race greatly adds to the enjoyment. There's only so much Ligget/Sherwen I can stomach for my information.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Bob Hughes - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to yorkshireman:
> (In reply to Bruce Hooker)
> [...]
>
> I find that cycling is ideally suited and much improved with social media. Following twitter and message boards while watching a race greatly adds to the enjoyment. There's only so much Ligget/Sherwen I can stomach for my information.

totally agree
stewieatb on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to andy:

Rule today was amended to 1km from the top of the final climb, about 15km out from the finish.

Great second win for Costa. I'm also glad I had Rolland on my Fantasy team!
GrahamD - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Loads of finger pointing at Froome in this tour but what's the concensus on Quintana ? remarkable staying power for a 23 year old.
Calder - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

The guy used to ride 100 miles over an Andean mountain to get to school. And back. Every day. And he grew up at some high altitude. Or something of that nature.

So it's no surprise he's borderline superhuman, really.
Calder - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:

I may have exaggerated slightly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nairo_Quintana
Mike Highbury - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> Loads of finger pointing at Froome in this tour but what's the concensus on Quintana ? remarkable staying power for a 23 year old.

Grand tour history teaches us that there is less of a finger to point at Q than Froome. Lemond, Fignon and co. were outstanding at that age and in their first tours; a finger is pointed at Froome because of his late development, whatever reason for that may be.
Chris the Tall - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to GrahamD:
After some great results early in the season (4th in catalunya, ahead of Wiggins, and winning Basque country ahead of Porte)it did seem odd that he didn't race again til the the tour.

However given his age (even though he looks 80!) this is probably very sensible and could be why he is so fresh.

Also Matt Rendall, who apparently knows a thing or two about Columbian cycling, reckons he is from one of the "good" set-ups there (reported by Velocast)
a lakeland climber on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Latest pictures from yesterday's refuelling incident - https://twitter.com/iainrelliott/status/358108484727869441/photo/1

ALC
Alun - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Wow just caught up with this thread from yesterday. Bit of a wash out today so let's go back to arguing: :)

Yes, Froome broke the rules yesterday. But anybody who claims that there is no moral difference between an energy gel and a blood transfusion is, to my mind, being willfully ignorant.
tim000 - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> Latest pictures from yesterday's refuelling incident - https://twitter.com/iainrelliott/status/358108484727869441/photo/1
>
> ALC

LOL
Enty - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to a lakeland climber:

This is how you deal with the dick-head runners....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5Vc6hH7Go

E
Toby_W on 19 Jul 2013
Wow, Iain, where did all that come from?

Time of the month or venting off some angst over the hard time everyone gave over your drug taking (ibuprofen) in your long runs...... ;-)

Toby

( I'm teasing by the way.)
balmybaldwin - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber)
>
> This is how you deal with the dick-head runners....
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5Vc6hH7Go
>
> E

Nicely done
Enty - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Perfect wasn't it? Bit of afters too ....

E
Jimboandrews. - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty: Genius!
lowersharpnose - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

Good work that man!
balmybaldwin - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

Something ive always wanted to do, just worry that the falling tw@t doesn't get in the way of a rider
stewieatb on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> Something ive always wanted to do, just worry that the falling tw@t doesn't get in the way of a rider

Or end up under a bike or car. The best one I've seen is a bike cameraman just pushing over a runner.
Ian Broome - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to stewieatb: anyone have a link to the 1hr itv4 highlights, all i can find are the 2min highlights.

Thanks
Mikkel - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to a lakeland climber)
>
> This is how you deal with the dick-head runners....
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5Vc6hH7Go
>
> E

and if the guy had taken out the guy on the bike when he fell, would you still approve?
ads.ukclimbing.com
Christheclimber - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Good link thanks.
Chris the Tall - on 19 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
So tomorrow - Froome hanging on in the crossfire of a battle for 2nd and 3rd place ? Or a final flourish on the last climb to seal the polka dot jersey as well.

I can't see the GC guys taking it easy again and letting a break go away as they did today. They are all looking pretty knackered but with such small time gramps and a summit finish there is all to play for. I reckon Quintana will take the stage, second place and the polka dots with one big move at the end.
betamonkey - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
I agree - reckon Movistar and Katusha will try to keep it tight to set up Quintana and Purito for a shot at the podium on the final climb. I hope they do leapfrog Contador - nothing to do with the each-way I have on Purito...!
tim000 - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to betamonkey:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
> I agree - reckon Movistar and Katusha will try to keep it tight to set up Quintana and Purito for a shot at the podium on the final climb. I hope they do leapfrog Contador - nothing to do with the each-way I have on Purito...!

+1 .
Paul035 - on 20 Jul 2013
> This is how you deal with the dick-head runners....
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF5Vc6hH7Go
>

That's brilliant. I would go mental if I was hanging out cycling up a climb and some prick was running alongside screaming in my ear come on you can do it, as if he thinks he can make a difference.

And you should never, ever start a fight whilst wearing green tights and a pink vest. Its just unacceptable.

Enty - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Mikkel:
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> and if the guy had taken out the guy on the bike when he fell, would you still approve?

Are you stupid?

E
Enty - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Another legendary Jens Voigt story. On the 2nd ascent of The Alpe on Thursday he wanted to give his bottle to a child but an adult snatched the bidon from the kid.
Jens turned round and made the chap give his bottle to the kid - legend!
http://www.sudinfo.be/769711/article/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/2013-07-19/tour-de-france-jens-v...

E
TomPollock - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Ian Broome:
> (In reply to stewieatb) anyone have a link to the 1hr itv4 highlights, all i can find are the 2min highlights.
>
> Thanks

On the itv.com website select itvplayer. You'll find the full 1 hour highlights there.

Chris the Tall - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
Voight had another great day today - surely he'll get the combativity prize and another trip to the podium.

Cracking stage, always good to the see the top guys at the head of the race. Podium places and KOM being decided on the final climb
JLS on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

What was Froome thinking with the late attack?

He'd won the Tour, let the other two guys fight out for the stage win and sit and watch.

Made himself look like a dickhead...
IainRUK - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Toby_W: I think its all fine really, but its just semantics. I think Froome cheated..

What I do find stranger is this.. 'its ok they cheat more'..

or if cheat is too strong a word.. I'd like to know more about the car as I did n't buy that at all, so don't get the 'they were transparent'..

Anyway I just loved the GB teams speech to us.. basically you are representing GB, we're British, other teams will cut corners, they'll cheat, we won't, we're British. It was a lovely pure approch

The french on the other hand went out to push every boundary possible, sending runners up the trail to find food requests.. breaking the 1m rule.. taking informal warnings.. and it was only when they were promised one more and its a formal action.. did they stop.. they knew to take every action until it cost them. Fair enough, but for me, that's not the Britsih way which is why I loved Sky's pure approach.

Yes I know football is different. But thats why I walked away, I got fed up of the cheating, fighting, gamesmanship, and love the endurance sports for their purity.

Other will have different views, thats fair enough, but I'd just like to keep my approach if thats OK.. :-)
Enty - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

You back on the sauce ;-)

e
Wanderer100 - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> What was Froome thinking with the late attack?
>
> He'd won the Tour, let the other two guys fight out for the stage win and sit and watch.
>
> Made himself look like a dickhead...

Well done Mr Froome, you won the war if not todays battle and won in good style, 2 of the greatest mountain stage wins ever, particularly on the Ventoux.
He earned the right to go for the win today, just as he has earned the right to the glass of champagne in Versailles tomorrow afternoon!!! A classy and stylish TdF winner.

mbh - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:

Well said. I completely agree. That style, where someone assured of the eventual campaign win, who pushes for victory even when they don't have to is just what I want to see.
JJL - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> I reckon Quintana will take the stage, second place and the polka dots with one big move at the end.

well done!
mbh - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to JJL:

He's immense, isn't he? When you hear what he ( and Froome too, in his way) has done in his past - 100 miles to school and back, via an Ande! - and put it in the context of your own efforts, you just have to admire and be inspired.
MJ - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to mbh:

He's immense, isn't he? When you hear what he ( and Froome too, in his way) has done in his past - 100 miles to school and back, via an Ande! - and put it in the context of your own efforts, you just have to admire and be inspired.

You forgot the raging torrent...
mbh - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to MJ: Cliches, moi? Where?
JLS on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to mbh:

Ride like that all the time and one day when the legs aren't so good there will be a que of riders ready to stick the knife in. At some point in the future he'll wish there weren't so many people prepared to ride against him.
MJ - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to mbh:

Cliches, moi? Where?

Wikipedia, that font of all knowledge, seems to suggest that a 200 mile round trip via an Ande, might be an exaggeration: -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nairo_Quintana
ads.ukclimbing.com
mbh - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:

Sorry, I don't get it. I never really have with cycling. It's a race, right? A really tough one. The point is to win. If your years and years of training enable you not just to get on the Tour, not just to lead the GC on the penultimate stage, but to in a position to go for the stage win, however hopelessly, what scheme of things, what perverted set of unwritten rules is it that says you shouldn't attack and go for the win? As a spectator, that is what I want him to do.
mbh - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to MJ:

My source was a UKC thread, possibly this one. An unimpeachably impeccable source.
Wanderer100 - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to MJ:
> (In reply to mbh)
>
> Cliches, moi? Where?
>
> Wikipedia, that font of all knowledge, seems to suggest that a 200 mile round trip via an Ande, might be an exaggeration: -
>
>
Who cares?
Andrew Smith - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS: No he didn't, he made himself look like a winner. Get over it.
andymac - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Well done Chris Froome.

What a feeling that must be tonight,knowing all the graft is over with.

Wake up tomorrow morning and cruise into Paris.

Delighted for the guy.
JLS on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Andrew Smith:

His attack fell flat on its face. How does that make him look like a winner?
MJ - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:

Who cares?

Well, mbh seemed to think it was a nice background story to a rider in the race. It was incorrect and I pointed it out.
That's what happens in Forums and life in general. You make a mistake, someone corrects you and posts a relevant link and/or explains to you where you went wrong. You and other people therefore gain a bit of knowledge from it.
Quite a good system really.


Wanderer100 - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to MJ: My point is who cares whether he made a 2 mile round trip on his bike going to school or a 200 mile round trip. He clearly has enormous amounts of talent, stamina and skill that will no doubt see him being a grand tour contender form any years to come.
mbh - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to MJ:

OK, agreed, even my source admits to possible exaggeration on the 100 mile to school and back claim!

But the general point remains, for me at least, that the back story to all of these riders at the very top always consists of work, work, and more work.
Pyreneenemec - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to Andrew Smith)
>
> His attack fell flat on its face. How does that make him look like a winner?

Can you imagine a Tour de France were all the competitors are too scared to make an attack for fear of looking like a dickhead?

If I were you, I'd go and find a hole to crawl into and hope everybody forgets your pathetic and stupid rantings.

Froome came a very respectable second; he at least tried in a situation where he had little to prove.

Clint86 - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec: I agree with JLS. He seemed to have a brain storm near the finish. For the life of me, I can't understand why he sprinted away three times for quite a short period of time when an even effort and a well timed attack nearer the end would seemed to have been better. Still, he should know, hes about to become crowned the winner of the Tour! Did anyone see Mo Farah's win in the 1500 meters. 3.28 something which is better than Coe/Ovett or Cram ever did. Really powerful sustained fast running.
JLS on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:

>"Froome came a very respectable second"

He was third in the stage I watched :-)

(and not withstanding my previous comments, looking good for a well deserved Tour win)
JLS on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Clint86:

>"For the life of me, I can't understand why he sprinted away three times for quite a short period of time"

Personally, I think it's an attempt at showboating. I think he wants to be seen as an attacking Maillot Jaune and not like that "boring" SirBW.
tim000 - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: and why haven`t all the riders taking drinks off people at the side of the road in the last few km been penalised :-)
tim000 - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: are the people complaining about froome attack today the same people who were compaining about wiggos lack of attacking last year.
JLS on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to tim000:

No.
Pyreneenemec - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec)
>
> >"Froome came a very respectable second"
>
> He was third in the stage I watched :-)
>
> (and not withstanding my previous comments, looking good for a well deserved Tour win)


In mine, too ! Cannot for the life of me explain that one away ! Any room in that hole of yours ?
Enty - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to tim000:
> (In reply to cragtyke) are the people complaining about froome attack today the same people who were compaining about wiggos lack of attacking last year.

Probably - the same people who've never raced a bike in their life but know everything there is to know about bike racing.

E
Enty - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Pyreneenemec:
> (In reply to JLS)
> [...]
>
> Can you imagine a Tour de France were all the competitors are too scared to make an attack for fear of looking like a dickhead?
>
>

Exactly - remember Eddy Merckx bollocking Lance for gifting Pantani?

E
Aly - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Clint86:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec) Did anyone see Mo Farah's win in the 1500 meters. 3.28 something which is better than Coe/Ovett or Cram ever did. Really powerful sustained fast running.

He came second didn't he? Still a pretty amazing achievement to break the British record in an event he was just 'having a go at'! Hopefully he'll be on top for for the worlds.
IainRUK - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:
> (In reply to JLS)
> [...]
>
> Well done Mr Froome, you won the war if not todays battle and won in good style, 2 of the greatest mountain stage wins ever, particularly on the Ventoux.
> He earned the right to go for the win today, just as he has earned the right to the glass of champagne in Versailles tomorrow afternoon!!! A classy and stylish TdF winner.

Jesus he's earned the right by sure.. For me that was ever in doubt.. I don't think I EVER suggested he wasn't a valid winner.
rmt - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to tim000)
> [...]
>
> Probably - the same people who've never raced a bike in their life but know everything there is to know about bike racing.
>
> E

Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing!!
IainRUK - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to rmt:
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> Funny, I was thinking exactly the same thing!!

I should apologise.. I've only experience of time trialling.. never raced a bike..
Chris the Tall - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
>I reckon Quintana will take the stage, second place and the polka dots with one big move at the end.

Should have gone to the bookies !
Chris the Tall - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> What was Froome thinking with the late attack?
>
> He'd won the Tour, let the other two guys fight out for the stage win and sit and watch.
>
> Made himself look like a dickhead...

Hardly, he was trying to win in the classic style. His first big attack got rid of everyone but Quintana and Rodriguez. Maybe he thought he would knock them out with a second blow. More likely he knew he would fail but wanted to show courage rather than simply follow his rivals over the finish line. And maybe just show how little he had left in the tank.
IainRUK - on 20 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: Also TV time... = money.. sitting safe is nice but sponsors want TV
Chris the Tall - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
Indeed. And nobody would call Jens Voight a dickhead for his futile attempt at a breakaway today.

Well not to his face anyway.
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to Pyreneenemec)
> [...]
>
> Exactly - remember Eddy Merckx bollocking Lance for gifting Pantani?
>
> E

Interesting Enty. I remember you making a comment last year on the uphill finish to Peyragudes where Froome was beckoning Wiggins on to the top. Some people said that Froome should have just gone for the win since he looked to be strong enough to catch Valverde (and probably was), but you said that Froome was wise to let Valverde win since it was a local Spanish crowd and he might need them/him in future.

I thought this an insightful comment, but it seems not in full agreement with your comment above.

Alan
tim000 - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH: last year froome was there to help wiggins win . this year he is there to win himself. so last year , if he had gone after valverde and wiggins had a problem it would have been a dumb thing to do . this year he was leading by 5 mins , so not a lot to loose by attacking but plenty to gain like the stage win and polkadot jersey .
JLS on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to tim000:

>"this year he was leading by 5 mins , so not a lot to loose by attacking but plenty to gain like the stage win and polkadot jersey"

Once you have the Yellow jersey in the bag, ANOTHER stage win and the climbers jersey are small beer compared to the good will of the peloton. Rightly or wrongly, all the favours and flicks are recorded. Currently his form is such that he can ride rough-shod over the bunch but one day in a cross-wind, when things not going so great, no-one will move aside and let him slip onto a wheel...
Enty - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

But I'm not sure I agree totally with this. I have mixed feelings, there's definitely circumstances where it's good and circumstances where it's best to hold back.
Armstrong always regretted his ride on the Ventoux.

I could do with some gifts this afternoon - 36° in Avignon got a 80km RR :-(

E
IainRUK - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: Also wonder if Sky are trying to be a tad less formulaic.. last year they were quite sterile at times, dominated but probably made it one of the more boring tours unless you were British.. superbly affective but the French like a bit of drama and romance. This years been much more exciting for me.
Wanderer100 - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
>This years been much more exciting for me.
And me, the second stage win for Cav made for awesome viewing, cross winds decimating the field, destroying the tour hopes of Valverde, Cav sprinting to cross the gap formed by the breakaway. Absorbing and brilliant racing on almost every stage. Fingers crossed for Cav tonight.

Dr.S at work - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to IainRUK:
> superbly affective but the French like a bit of drama and romance.
> This years been much more exciting for me.


surely as we are British, superbly effective? lets leave affective to the Frenchies.....
dale1968 - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Wanderer100:Hopefully five wins tonight
balmybaldwin - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:


Someone get that man a windproof lighter!
lowersharpnose - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to thread:

I have just twigged the connection with Gladiator and The Champs Elysee.

The Elysian Fields, duh.
balmybaldwin - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to lowersharpnose:

Bugger kittel gets it
JLS on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Cav very unlucky not to have found Kittel's wheel. Looked to be moving fastest at the end.
lowersharpnose - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:

The 100th TdF, well done that man.
idiotproof (Buxton MC) - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:

I was watching it on a low res live feed.... what went wrong for cav. Looked like he just missed the break nad then struggled to get back onto the leader
Enty - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to JLS:
> (In reply to balmybaldwin)
>
> Cav very unlucky not to have found Kittel's wheel. Looked to be moving fastest at the end.

Did you see his wheel bounce 10m from the line? FFS!

E
Enty - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Great short interview there with Ned...some wise words...I might have to start liking Froome now ;-)

E
idiotproof (Buxton MC) - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

I'm not sure he would have made it even without the bounce.. would have def made second without it
Enty - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
> (In reply to Enty)
>
> I'm not sure he would have made it even without the bounce.. would have def made second without it

Yeah no chance - too late. Just commenting on the bounce at 70kmh.

E
kevin stephens - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):
Great to see Quintana get the polka dot jersey, for me hero of the tour (after Froome of course)
Enty - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:

Awkward moment for Froome surrounded by dopers on the podium....

E
Antigua - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke:
What would happen if one of Peter Sagan team mates decided to do a '94 Michael Schmacher Damon Hill move on Chris Froome?

Serious question!
Aly - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC): ARGHHH, gutted :(
From the looks of it the OPQS train faltered just as they were bearing left into the chicane and Argos came through leaving Cav 4th wheel instead of 2nd. Big bounce on the cobbles (it's worse on the RHS isn't it?) can't have helped either but he was just as fast as the other two.
andymac - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:

Froome is sound.

Has seriously grown on me over the TDF.

and his life story is just a triumph.

would make a great film.
Cuthbert on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to andymac:

I was in Embrun for the time trail and then tried to get to the Alp but I was too late.

The organisation of the Tour is superb.
John Rushby - on 21 Jul 2013


Pity Cav didn't get the stage but with a stronger train and his old mucker back he'll have a better year next year.

Froome seems to have changed a lot of opinions, the Cycling News haters ae less in nuber or as vociferous.

good article in sunday Times today by David Walsh. Apparently the ice box leaked into the Jag electrics and that the reason the car broke down.

It also sounds like the Sky cars and staff came in for some real harassment, and Froome himself was sprayed in the face by some dickhead with a syringe.
John Rushby - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to John Rushby:

From the Times (it's paywalled so no link)

“I’ve been with the team since April last year, almost 16 months. Applications for TUEs come from me and in my time, we have applied for two TUEs.”

Farrell was at a medical practice in Dublin before joining Sky. On Thursday he travelled in a team car up Alpe d’Huez and felt as much under siege as every Sky car in the race cavalcade. Eggs smashed against the cars, beer too, and when a car slowed enough for the jeering mob to rock it from side to side, that’s what they did. The abuse was worst at those parts of the climb populated by Irish and Dutch fans. “Froome Dope” was one of the bigger signs at the Irish corner. All the way up to the top there were fans screaming at Sky riders while mimicking the act of injection into their arms.

Two young men ran beside Froome, each with a “toy” giant syringe filled with an unknown substance. One got close, pressed the plunger and sprayed the substance directly into his face. The leader instinctively struck out with his right arm and punched the guy in the face, an act of physical violence utterly at odds with his character. “Some of the stuff went into my mouth, it might have been beer but I was conscious of not wanting to swallow even a drop and just kept spitting out. I was thinking, ‘What if there’s some product in that stuff’.”

The ascents of Alpe d’Huez scared him. “Once there were riots in Kenya and my mum and I got stopped going through a particularly dangerous township. The protesters rocked our car, we didn’t know what was going to happen. Alpe d’Huez reminded me of that day.”
andymac - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Saor Alba:

The organisers should contemplate sending in the army.

A shoot on sight policy for those twa*ts who run after the bikes would not be overly harsh.

Lked Froomes karate chop on one of them yesterday.

My lasting impression of the TDF is ;

what a beautiful and spectacular country.
Cuthbert on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to andymac:

Don't agree on the death by gun but hey ho. Compare and contrast the roads of Mull with the French ones.

ITV coverage also very good.
Wanderer100 - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Saor Alba:
> (In reply to andymac)

>
> ITV coverage also very good.
Its made for compelling viewing hasn't it. A tour spectacular right until the final metres. Shame for Cav but looked like his team didn't do the lead out job it was meant to. Hats off to Chris Froome, a superb winner and a likeable humble man too

Paul035 - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to Saor Alba:
Compare and contrast the roads of Mull with the French ones.
>
Its all over Scotland - roads are shocking for cycling. I went to the Scottish stage of 'Tour Of Britain' last year down in Dumfries and they were out trying to fill in a few of the many potholes on the finishing straight an hour before Cavendish soared along it.

> ITV coverage also very good.

Agree, excellent.


Disappointed Cav didn't get his win, agree with the above, I thought his lead out train were doing brilliant apart from the last man before Cavendish (big fella, can't remember his name- Steedmans??) let a Cannondale rider sneak in front of him in the middle of their train, so other teams came past and OPQ lost their momentum on the last bend. No expert, just how it looked to me!

He definitely more than matched the speed of Kittel this time which must make it even more frustrating for him. I think he would have got second without that shocker of a bounce just before the line, and was also gaining on Kittel - another 30m and it was his..!!




george mc - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to andymac:
> (In reply to Saor Alba)
>
> The organisers should contemplate sending in the army.
>
> A shoot on sight policy for those twa*ts who run after the bikes would not be overly harsh.
>
> Lked Froomes karate chop on one of them yesterday.
>
> My lasting impression of the TDF is ;
>
> what a beautiful and spectacular country.

Rather than gun what about foot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJslHu86ZE8
Run_Ross_Run - on 21 Jul 2013
In reply to george mc:
Love that vid.
link - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Enty:
> (In reply to cragtyke)
>
> Awkward moment for Froome surrounded by dopers on the podium....
>
> E

Indurain did not look comfortable receiving that commemorative jersey.

ads.ukclimbing.com

I was slightly surprised to see that Quintana took 53 seconds off Froome yesterday at the finish due to them posing around doing the arm-linking thing. Sticklers for the time gaps right up to the end.

The final stage has always puzzled me by the fact that you have winner, but he still needs to cycle to the finish, not get a puncture on the Champs Elysee like that pour French guy, not have a pile up, and not ponce around getting photos across the finish line for too long.

Alan
Chris the Tall - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to John Rushby:
Interesting link - disgraceful behaviour

I do get the impression that there is a lot of anti-Brit sentiment in Irish cycling - it's probably the one thing that McQuaid and Kimmage share ! I suspect it has a lot to with the fact that for many years the Irish had completely out-performed Britain with two of the all-time greats - Kelly and Roche - but now their reputation is tarnished whilst Britain has caught up and eclipsed them with (apparently) clean riders.

David Walsh is an exception, but then he works for a paper so closely linked with Sky that I guess his impartiality is comprised.

I've not read or seen any of Kimmage's reports but I expect he is making all his usual insinuations. I know he has been a useful voice in cycling over the last 20 years, but I get the impression he thinks every rider (except Dan Martin) is doping, so the only ones he believes are those who have admitted doping. His fawning interview with Landis a few years back completely blow his credibility to me.
Bjartur i Sumarhus on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall: Has Wiggins wife tweeted anything nice about Froome yet?
Chris the Tall - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:
They are travelling billboards - Sky will get good value from that pic of the 7 of them crossing the line together. Though personally I prefer the image of the yellow jersey leading the rainbow jersey in the sprint from last year.

If you look down the results the commissars found a plenty of gaps to split the riders on - lots of tired legs I guess.

Did one guy crash out on the Champs ?
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> Did one guy crash out on the Champs ?

The Dutch lead-out guy for Griepel, Lieuwe Westra, got to the Champs and then had to stop since he had a lung infection and was too ill to continue when the pace picked up and he would have been lapped so had no choice.

The french guy got two punctures but he finished 2:21 behind.

Alan
graeme jackson - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to cragtyke: Only 11 1/4 months till we have to put up with liggett and sherwin telling us rider so and so is xx 'years of age' again. When did it become un-pc to say joe bloggs is 24 years old ffs?

Was seriously impressed with the post awards lightshow on the arc de triumph though.
The New NickB - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to graeme jackson:

What the hell as that got to do with political correctness?
Phil Lyon - on 22 Jul 2013
What's the closest the 2nd place rider has been at the start of that final stage?

If it was only a few seconds the whole thing may be a little different.
graeme jackson - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to The New NickB: probably nothing but it seems nowadays that Tv presenters only ever say xx years of age. perhaps someone's donkey took offence at being called old.
Chris the Tall - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Phil Lyon:
2007 - 23 seconds. IIRC Bertie stuck to Cuddles' wheel for the last lap, if not most of the stage.
Mike Highbury - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Phil Lyon:
> What's the closest the 2nd place rider has been at the start of that final stage?
>
> If it was only a few seconds the whole thing may be a little different.

In 1986 Lemond was at 50s to Fignon.....

That will never happen again.
Liam Brown - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to link:

I was on the way back from Ben Nevis so only got to listen:

Did LeMond, Mercx and Hinault get to ride up the Champs Elysees in a car together but not Indurain?
lummox - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Liam Brown: Indurain was there as well..
Guy - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Phil Lyon: Think it was about 7 seconds Le Monde and Fignon. Enty will correct me no doubt!
Liam Brown - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to lummox:

Cool.
Liam Brown - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Guy:

50 secs Fignon on Lemond at start. 7 secs LeMond on Fignon at end. stage was time trial.
Mike Highbury - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Liam Brown:
> (In reply to Guy)
>
> 50 secs Fignon on Lemond at start. 7 secs LeMond on Fignon at end. stage was time trial.

8s, please.
highcamp - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to link:
> (In reply to Enty)
> [...]
>
> Indurain did not look comfortable receiving that commemorative jersey.

I noticed the same thing. It appeared as if he almost felt ashamed. I doubt the feeling is strong enough for him to come clean on his wins though... the guy probably hasn't had to pay for a dinner or a drink in Spain since 1990.

Aside from that moment, I thought the presentations were pretty solid. Nice job with the light show on le Arc.
link - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to highcamp:

> I noticed the same thing. It appeared as if he almost felt ashamed. I doubt the feeling is strong enough for him to come clean on his wins though... the guy probably hasn't had to pay for a dinner or a drink in Spain since 1990.
>

I like to think he lives life with a voice in his head "They're coming for me next, oh god they're going to come for me next"

Loved the light show on the Arc

In reply to link:
> Indurain did not look comfortable receiving that commemorative jersey.

Especially since there were apparently two of him on the stage according to the first line of this report - http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/this-yellow-jersey-will-stand-test-of-time-says-froome

... and I thought our proof-reading was bad!

Alan
ads.ukclimbing.com
Douglas Griffin - on 22 Jul 2013
balmybaldwin - on 22 Jul 2013
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

Thanks, will try to catch that.

Was wondering what to watch now the tour is over!
TimB - on 23 Jul 2013

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