/ Lake District Winter Ethics - Proposal

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Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
Any rock climb that:
1. Gets any Summer sun.
2. Becomes a dry line in Summer.
3. Is clean and free from drainage and vegetation in Summer.
4. Ever gets climbed in Summer.
5. Has no stars, one star, two stars or three stars:

Should NOT be climbed with axes and crampons.


Any line that:
1. Gets no Summer sun.
2. Takes drainage in Summer.
3. Remains vegetated and dirty in Summer.
4. Never forms a dry clean line in Summer.
5. Never gets climbed in Summer as a rock climb.

Could be climbed with winter gear subject to fully frozen conditions.
Hardonicus - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

What about Bowfell Buttress?
Milesy - on 19 Aug 2013
Are you actively involved in the Lake District ethics? Why not go along to their meetings and get involved rather than trolling?
Hardonicus - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Milesy: Well I'm originally from near the Lakes and I have climbed there extensively in summer and winter.
KellyKettle - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> Any rock climb that:
> 4. Ever gets climbed in Summer.
> 5. Has no stars, one star, two stars or three stars:
>
> Should NOT be climbed with axes and crampons.
>
> Any line that
> 5. Never gets climbed in Summer as a rock climb.
>
> Could be climbed with winter gear subject to fully frozen conditions.

One thing i've never understood, is why rock climbing is taken as so superior to winter climbing such that even the shittest routes are somehow sacrosanct and must never be touched by winter climbers...

Let alone restricting the development of new winter lines soley to areas rock climbers are uninterested by just in case a new climb might develop there in the future.
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Great!!!!

And how are you going to implement these guidelines?

This whole winter ethics debate is getting incredibly boring.

Genuine question here, have any of these debates, meetings, and threads ever made any difference?
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)

> Genuine question here, have any of these debates, meetings, and threads ever made any difference?

Yes of course they have. You're an idiot with no grasp of British climbing history, as I suppose would be expected from anyone with a txtspk user name.

jcm

xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

John, you're an absolute tosser, I really don't know who you think you are. If your behaviour on these forums is anything to go by, then you can't be liked get much.

So go then John, prove that they have helped. Have you any evidence?

xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Oh yea,

What you done on rime?

Old timer
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:

"Been Climbing For
1 to 3 years"

jcm
Offwidth - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

I'm assuming you realise there is almost no rock in the UK that never gets any sun in summer. It would need to be north facing and enclosed by 30 degrees or so north from the east (to block low early morning sun) and the west (ditto for evening)... basically north facing gullies, bowls and chasms.
Simon Caldwell - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

So under your proposals, Striding Edge becomes out of bounds in the winter?
Offwidth - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

With your impressive CV, I think he is winning. Or is this just where you get to fantasy role play as a kid again?
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Offwidth:

You'd have to explain that to me.

It strikes me there are quite a few routes unaccounted for in the OP's proposal (ie which don't come within either category).

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to KellyKettle:

>One thing i've never understood, is why rock climbing is taken as so superior to winter climbing

Because it doesn't leave scratches all over the rock, presumably.

jcm
felt - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Toreador:

If that's a rock climb then my McCain's Oven Chips are an ice line (III).
nw - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
'never climb'

nw
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to nw:

Oh I see. Yes, I'm afraid I never bother to update that.

jcm
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You seem to mention people's climbing every day John.

Are you implying that only you can decide our ethics?

I've certainly never heard of you before these forums, your just another climber at the end of the day like me. You have certainly never been professional, in anyway!
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:

>your just another climber at the end of the day like me

Of course I am. You really are a halfwit. This isn't about me. Anyone who knows anything about British climbing history knows that your statement was wrong, and is consequently probably thinking that you're a bit of a berk for sounding off about something you know nothing about. Someone has to say it.

jcm
Milesy - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Hardonicus:
> (In reply to Milesy) Well I'm originally from near the Lakes and I have climbed there extensively in summer and winter.

I was talking about the OP. Not you. The thread is designed to cause argument as its been to death and it is not going to reach any sensible conclusion on UKC. I don't get involved with lakes ethics because I don't climb there. It turns into the same old bashing on both sides.
Darren Jackson - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to The Thread in General:

Oh, good. A bunfight... I've always felt that this forum could really benefit from a few of these.
Hardonicus - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Darren Jackson: Especially on a dry tooling thread like this.
Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Hardonicus:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> What about Bowfell Buttress?

Definitely A "NO". That poor route has been trashed enough by wannabees.
Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> So under your proposals, Striding Edge becomes out of bounds in the winter?

Not at all, second number 5 criteria works for it.
Wesley Orvis - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

All i can say is we need to have as many of these discussions as possible, on here or anywhere else, informing people does make them more aware of their actions without a doubt, I have said this many times on these forums and i will say it again, not all people especially newbies are aware of the damamge they can cause to rock and plantlife under the snow, so any information highlighting this the better.

I think you must be completely ignorant or stupid to climb routes like Bowfell Buttress, Engineer's Slab or Giant's Crawl in summer and not realise that the kind of damage axes and crampons are making is not sustainable forever. After a few more years of dry tooling these routes they will become unrecognisable and will change a lot, it looks pretty shit too with scratches all over the rock.

Personally i would much rather climb something with some turf, neve or ice to get purchase into rather than scratching about hooking on rock.

Although i think summer scrambles should be a goer in winter as their are lots of choice of lines and the damage never seems to be get too bad on these.
Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to KellyKettle)
>
> >One thing i've never understood, is why rock climbing is taken as so superior to winter climbing
>
> Because it doesn't leave scratches all over the rock, presumably.
>
> jcm

And because we have moved on from aid climbing.
Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> Genuine question here, have any of these debates, meetings, and threads ever made any difference?

Yes they have - it is now becoming unacceptable to f_ck up routes with gear.
Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Milesy:
> (In reply to Hardonicus)
> [...]
>
> I was talking about the OP. Not you. The thread is designed to cause argument as its been to death and it is not going to reach any sensible conclusion on UKC. I don't get involved with lakes ethics because I don't climb there. It turns into the same old bashing on both sides.

Don't be a dimwit. The OP is not a troll. It's about time something was done to protect our heritage of fantastic rock routes that are being effed up by multi-coloured gear freaks.
Milesy - on 19 Aug 2013
And what exactly do you propose to do against it aside patrolling them yourself? I dont agree with it but it isnt against the law. If someone wants to go against ethics they will do it anyway, and they either dont read UKC or wont get involved in discussions on it. Why not bring up the thread from last year or the year before? UKC discussion rarely ever solve complex issues.
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Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> I'm assuming you realise there is almost no rock in the UK that never gets any sun in summer. It would need to be north facing and enclosed by 30 degrees or so north from the east (to block low early morning sun) and the west (ditto for evening)... basically north facing gullies, bowls and chasms.

Congratulations! You have accurately defined Winter climbing as we love and know.
Exile - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

Winter climbing the routes you suggest in proper winter nick is not dry tooling, (although it can damage the rock in a similar way,) but is part of winter climbing in Britain. I think part of the solution, particularly for routes that are both established winter and summer lines, is to try to encourage climbers to only climb these routes in proper winter nick, (if it is a snowed up rocky route then it needs to have a lot of snow on it - it is the snow which defines it as a winter route.) This would preserve a purer winter climbing ethic, avoid dry tooling or near dry tooling ascents and as a result reduce overall ascents.

I think that the over riding problem in relation to snowed up rock type routes is that too many people are not willing enough to walk away if the route isn't white or nearly all white. They also see images on the web, (this site is a good example,) of routes being climbed out of condition and not being condemned as such. (Look at the images of Two Grooves on here for both proper and poor / non existent winter nick.)
Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Milesy:
> And what exactly do you propose to do against it aside patrolling them yourself? I dont agree with it but it isnt against the law. If someone wants to go against ethics they will do it anyway, and they either dont read UKC or wont get involved in discussions on it. Why not bring up the thread from last year or the year before? UKC discussion rarely ever solve complex issues.

Things change by the drip drip drip effect, and by a process of enlightenment. Proposals get discussed, a common sense ethic develops.
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

>your just another climber at the end of the day like me

Of course I am. You really are a halfwit. This isn't about me. Anyone who knows anything about British climbing history knows that your statement was wrong, and is consequently probably thinking that you're a bit of a berk for sounding off about something you know nothing about. Someone has to say it.

jcm

Come in John, it is you who made this personal, as always you attack people personally.

I didn't say it has t worked in my first post, I asked a question. Why is that wrong. It's asking questions and getting SENSIBLE replies that helps people understand right and wrong.

Now I know you and I don't get along but come on, grow up!
Wesley Orvis - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Exile:

Cheers for correcting me on this! I still feel there is more fun to be had elsewhere.
KellyKettle - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> And because we have moved on from aid climbing.

I don't think I was at that meeting, who's decision was it to abolish aid climbing then?
As far as I'm aware there's a vague move toward a consensus that clean aid is the way forward and that placing bolt-ladders is not even aid climbing, but it's definitely still a discipline of climbing.

Anyway, neither of you have answered my question properly, as to what makes /any/ rock climbing take precedence over /all/ winter climbing... I'm more than happy to concede that Winter climbing has a greater impact on the rock thus historically important routes, and ones where there is a consensus that they're of exceptionally high quality should be off-limits; some of the historic winter lines are a grey area, but that's where a compromise should be reached... you don't seem to want a compromise though, you seem to want to limit other people's options to suit your agenda.

As for dry tooling, that's a different thread entirely... as that's a novel and perfectly legitimate activity, which is trying to fit into an established heirachy without causing any upset, yet has been kicked in the teeth repeatedly by people who's main message comes across as "You're different and that's bad!"
timjones - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to Hardonicus)
> [...]
>
> Definitely A "NO". That poor route has been trashed enough by wannabees.

Summer wannabees, winter wannabees or a bit of both ;)
Darren Jackson - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to timjones:
>
> Summer wannabees, winter wannabees or a bit of both ;)

I'm fairly sure that he's referring to the Spice Girls?
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to KellyKettle:

>yet has been kicked in the teeth repeatedly by people who's main message comes across as "You're different and that's bad!"

Why do people say such pathetic things? Nobody minds dry tooling because it's different. FFS, deep water soloing was different; nobody minded that. They mind DT because it's unsustainable and trashes any venue where it's performed very rapidly.

jcm
Rick Graham on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> Any rock climb that:
> 1. Gets any Summer sun.
> 2. Becomes a dry line in Summer.
> 3. Is clean and free from drainage and vegetation in Summer.
> 4. Ever gets climbed in Summer.
> 5. Has no stars, one star, two stars or three stars:
>
> Should NOT be climbed with axes and crampons.
>
>
> Any line that:
> 1. Gets no Summer sun.
> 2. Takes drainage in Summer.
> 3. Remains vegetated and dirty in Summer.
> 4. Never forms a dry clean line in Summer.
> 5. Never gets climbed in Summer as a rock climb.
>
> Could be climbed with winter gear subject to fully frozen conditions.

Well done Dave for keeping your cool after trying to start a sensible debate.

I do not intend to get involved with all the slagging off on UKC so here is my once only proposal/ post on this topic:


FRCC guidebook summer rock route with one two or three stars, no tooling.

No stars, dry tooling or winter climbing OK.

Simple.

No need to alter any other existing guidelines or accepted ethics.
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You and Dave seem to have gone very quiet.

Did you really have anything sensible to say on the matter.
You don't seem to like winter climbing, so I'd advise against posting these threads. They need to be dealt with by people who can listen to both sides of the storey and speak about it sensibly.

Otherwise it just turns into hardcore* trad climbers slagging off anyone who does something differently, wether its acceptable or not.

*hardcore, tend to be old, don't climb, and weren't that good when they did climb.


johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:

I've gone quiet because, contrary to your moronic opinion, I don't have a a strong feeling on where the line should be drawn. My only feeling is that it's something which needs to be discussed, and that posts like yours which are based on ignorance of a truly massive character are to be deplored.

jcm
KellyKettle - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to KellyKettle)
>
> >yet has been kicked in the teeth repeatedly by people who's main message comes across as "You're different and that's bad!"
>
> Why do people say such pathetic things? Nobody minds dry tooling because it's different. FFS, deep water soloing was different; nobody minded that. They mind DT because it's unsustainable and trashes any venue where it's performed very rapidly.
>
> jcm

I say that because it gets an excessive amount of hate, *even though* the community of people involved are more than well aware that it can cause damage and have gone to great lengths to find and develop venues where that isn't going to be a huge issue... That said, done properly it shouldn't cause "rapid trashing", more superficial scratches and slow formation of grooves where everyone is hooking and torquing in approximately the same place.

In fact didn't someone chop all the bolts at a recently developed DT area quite recently?
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

What annoyed you so much about my post. You must not have read it properly.

I asked a question, I didn't make a statement.

Now instead of changing the subject, give me evidence of my ignorance in my first post.

You must be simple
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
'never climb'

nw


Hahaha I love this, John thinks he is the only one not allowed to update this profile.

Hahaha never climb, really this doesn't surprise me
Eric9Points - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> What annoyed you so much about my post. You must not have read it properly.
>
> I asked a question, I didn't make a statement.
>
> Now instead of changing the subject, give me evidence of my ignorance in my first post.
>
> You must be simple

I'll remind you of your original post:

"In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Great!!!!

And how are you going to implement these guidelines?

This whole winter ethics debate is getting incredibly boring.

Genuine question here, have any of these debates, meetings, and threads ever made any difference? "

I'd have characterised it as dismissive sarcasm. John checked your profile and noted that you have limited experience. If you had written something a little less strident and self sure than perhaps you wouldn't have (rightly) got you head bitten off.

johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:

> give me evidence of my ignorance in my first post.


I can't be bothered, I'm afraid. Go away and find out for yourself.

jcm
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Eric9Points:

That's how you interpreted it, but you couldn't be more wrong. I asked a question, I've made that clear from my first post.

Do you winter climb? Again that is a genuine question. No sarcasm.
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Never climb. Hahaha
johncoxmysteriously - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to KellyKettle:

>I say that because it gets an excessive amount of hate, *even though* the community of people involved are more than well aware that it can cause damage and have gone to great lengths to find and develop venues where that isn't going to be a huge issue...

Then why didn't you say that before instead of the nonsense you did say? And as you presumably know, it's not the finding venues that alarms people so much as the failing to prevent it spilling over.

jcm
xplorer on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Eric9Points:

Obviously experience is valuable but if you no longer climb anymore your not out there speaking to climbers, evolving.

Being a climber today is just as valuable as having a few years of climbing on weekends under your belt.

Lets not pretend climbing is political, it's a sport. Most climbers act within the guidelines, only a small minority dont.
Exile - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Rick Graham:

Hi Rick

I'd go with that but wonder about some one star routes, (I did a winter ascent of 150m buttress route on St Sundays which included a 30m one star VDiff which is the experience that makes me wonder as I can' t actually see many people going to St Sundays for a 30m rock route, but the winter buttress route is very worthwhile.)

I'd also possibly add guidelines on what constitutes a winter crag, and would still 'allow' some established winter routes, (BB, staying with St Sundays Pinnacle Ridge is a two star M in the new guide,) that have more than one star as a Summer route.

Anyway, are you going to the meeting tomorrow?

Huw
Exile - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

No probs Wesley - I know you get out a lot and as a fellow winter climber living in Kendal I always enjoy reading your write ups and am appreciative of your conditions reports, I just worry that the term 'dry tooling' is increasingly being used as an emotive way of vilifying an aspect of winter climbing.
Andrew Wilson - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
This seems a little biased Dave. The proposal suggested on the BMC thread seems more balanced and frankly realistic. I dare say the details would need to be thrashed out but it's a starting point for sensible discussion. After a long awaited trip to flat crags this summer I saw the damage on 1984. The wannabe part of me would fancy a go but I personally would agree that flat crags need not be winter climbed and would be better preserved. I would not winter climb there no matter what was agreed.
Bowfell buttress in proper condition should remain fair game. At least untill I've done it ;-) ( I've been waiting so long for the right conditions to align with my free time)
Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Rick Graham:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> [...]
>
> Well done Dave for keeping your cool after trying to start a sensible debate.
>
> I do not intend to get involved with all the slagging off on UKC so here is my once only proposal/ post on this topic:
>
>
> FRCC guidebook summer rock route with one two or three stars, no tooling.
>
> No stars, dry tooling or winter climbing OK.
>
> Simple.
>
> No need to alter any other existing guidelines or accepted ethics.

Good bid Rick! Could I stretch you to include the large number of no-starred routes that are neglected but still make fantastic rock routes in Summer?

DC
Dave Cumberland - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Andrew Wilson:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> This seems a little biased Dave. The proposal suggested on the BMC thread seems more balanced and frankly realistic. I dare say the details would need to be thrashed out but it's a starting point for sensible discussion. After a long awaited trip to flat crags this summer I saw the damage on 1984. The wannabe part of me would fancy a go but I personally would agree that flat crags need not be winter climbed and would be better preserved. I would not winter climb there no matter what was agreed.
> Bowfell buttress in proper condition should remain fair game. At least untill I've done it ;-) ( I've been waiting so long for the right conditions to align with my free time)

You have made your own case for 1984 Andrew, so why on Earth would that not apply to Bowfell Buttress? Best leave it, like me - I never did it in winter as a matter of principle - there are better winter routes to do that do not destroy classics.
DC


chris j on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
>
> Never climb. Hahaha

Oh dear, you seem to place a lot of weight on a very small part of someone's profile being the literal and unvarnished truth.

In your 1st post you also seem confused about the difference between rules and guidelines. All you can really do with guidelines is publish them, promote them, educate people about them (possibly by means of threads and debates). They don't have any legal force so you can't implement them or enforce them.

If the (apparently boring to you) threads and debates convince just a few people that they shouldn't go out and trash a barely rimed classic rock route with axe and crampons just because they can and it's winter then that's about the best you can hope for. Over time you might move the prevailing view in your favour and peer pressure will help reduce numbers of inappropriate ascents further (responses changing from " you did engineer's slabs (or whatever) in winter, that's really cool" to "you did engineer's slabs with axe and crampons, that's a bit tw*ttish, no?")

Or you can sit around on your arse, say nothing and grumble quietly as the consensus moves the other way and eventually classic rock routes become fair game.
Simon Caldwell - on 19 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> Not at all, second number 5 criteria works for it.

Never gets climbed as a summer rock climb? It's in my guidebook,l graded Easy, and I've seen quite a few people on it in summer. I once saw a pair using a rope.
Euge - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> All i can say is we need to have as many of these discussions as possible, on here or anywhere else, informing people does make them more aware of their actions without a doubt, I have said this many times on these forums and i will say it again, not all people especially newbies are aware of the damamge they can cause to rock and plantlife under the snow, so any information highlighting this the better.

Good point, well put.

E
Dave Cumberland - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Toreador:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> Never gets climbed as a summer rock climb? It's in my guidebook,l graded Easy, and I've seen quite a few people on it in summer. I once saw a pair using a rope.

Not in 2011 FRCC Eastern Crags guide as a rock climb.
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LakesWinter on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
First of all thanks for starting a sensible thread on a topic that very much needs resolving.
I certainly agree that 3 star summer route should not be opened as new winter lines, however some 1 star routes, such as the line exile describes on st Sunday crag, make better winter routes than summer ones and would almost never be climbed in summer, whereas in winter they would provide high quality and reliable climbing. I think it's a question of best use of the crag/piece of rock in question.

Similarly there are certain crags that do not lend themselves to winter, being largely clean and south facing, I regard winter ascents of d route on gimmer as out of order for example. In my opinion the only part of gimmer suitable for winter climbing is the vegetated grooves left of outside Tokyo.

There are other questions in terms of the history of the line as well. To take Bowfell buttress as an example, when first done in winter it was probably the hardest buttress route in Britain - in my view its significance as a winter route is greater than as a summer one, therefore winter ascents should continue in my opinion as the route is more significant as a winter one than a summer one..

There are other winter routes that are merely based around a summer route, e.g. Bottrillls slab on scafell, I think this remains fair game as the summer crux is entirely untouched by winter ascents and summer ascents won't alter the drainage that helps in winter.
Dave Cumberland - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> First of all thanks for starting a sensible thread on a topic that very much needs resolving.
>
> There are other questions in terms of the history of the line as well. To take Bowfell buttress as an example, when first done in winter it was probably the hardest buttress route in Britain - in my view its significance as a winter route is greater than as a summer one, therefore winter ascents should continue in my opinion as the route is more significant as a winter one than a summer one..
>
> There are other winter routes that are merely based around a summer route, e.g. Bottrillls slab on scafell, I think this remains fair game as the summer crux is entirely untouched by winter ascents and summer ascents won't alter the drainage that helps in winter.

Good measured response but I completely disagree on Bowfell Buttress. Some may think it is a standard winter classic now, I would counter that it has never been that. By contrast it has always been a classic rock climb done by generations of climbers all year round.

So far as Botterills is concerned, we are on thin ice to coin a phrase. I do not believe the route remains untouched by winter gear. I believe all Scafell rock-climbing classics should be off-limits.

Dave Birkett's "Never ever say never" or Moss Ghyll for example more or less set the boundaries between what is ethical and what is not (both those routes I would say are great examples of ethical winter routes).
Jim Fraser - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Do rock climbing ethics state anything about not removing turf from north faces?
Offwidth - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Can you clarify if that original list was "and" or "or"? I've climbed in the sun in winter on routes in perfect condition, let alone the rock being reached by the summer sun.
Dave Cumberland - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> Can you clarify if that original list was "and" or "or"? I've climbed in the sun in winter on routes in perfect condition, let alone the rock being reached by the summer sun.

Or.
Dave Cumberland - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Jim Fraser:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> Do rock climbing ethics state anything about not removing turf from north faces?

Not heard that one.
johncoxmysteriously - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to Offwidth)
> [...]
>
> Or.

That makes no sense. What if a route has one of the characteristics in list one and one of the characteristics in list two?

jcm
Dave Cumberland - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> [...]
>
> That makes no sense. What if a route has one of the characteristics in list one and one of the characteristics in list two?
>
> jcm

Well obviously, NOT to climb it with axes etc would take precedence. At least that is the proposal for discussion.
DC
KellyKettle - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> Well obviously, NOT to climb it with axes etc would take precedence. At least that is the proposal for discussion.
> DC

I still can't fully believe that you're serious about that proposal; It's not particularly balanced or reasonable by comparison to the rather more considered proposal on the BMC thread...

I appreciate what you're trying to accomplish, but if guidelines that strident were selected as the area's position on winter climbing it would be counter productive... There's a risk that many people are going to look at it, think "F**k That!" and ignore them.
Euge - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to johncoxmysteriously)
> [...]
>
> Well obviously, NOT to climb it with axes etc would take precedence. At least that is the proposal for discussion.
> DC

Why should summer climbing take precedence?

E
johncoxmysteriously - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Euge:

The whole purpose of discussion is to establish on what routes summer climbing should take precedence. Otherwise you get people dry-tooling Bowfell Buttress.

Oh wait.....

jcm
Dave Cumberland - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to KellyKettle:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> I appreciate what you're trying to accomplish, but if guidelines that strident were selected as the area's position on winter climbing it would be counter productive... There's a risk that many people are going to look at it, think "F**k That!" and ignore them.

I disagree, I don't think you have a sense of history or appreciation of what is at stake in the Lake District at present - it is a logical proposal following on from the FRCC one - as local climbers we either want to trash routes or we don't.
It's quite simple.
KellyKettle - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Euge:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> [...]
>
> Why should summer climbing take precedence?
>
> E

There's not actually a good reason for summer climbing to take precedence on an area-wide basis... on a climb-by-climb or crag-by-crag basis I can see merit in giving it precedence.

To my mind the guidelines Dave proposed in his OP would actually go way beyond his stated aim of protecting classic summer rock and also serve to discourage developing new winter routes in many locations where summer routes are still unlikely/unfeasible/have become disused due to low quality or lack of demand for that style of climbing.

As far as I can tell, not everyone thinks mixed climbing is a valid activity, and some are willing to conveniently neglect the fact that the lakes was the home to some of the original pioneering mixed routes (long before that name was applied, with winter ascents on rock faces dating as far bad as the 1890's) whilst talking about preserving classics... Is preserving the heritage and furthering the tradition of improving the standard of mixed climbing not important too?
Dave Cumberland - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Euge:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> Why should summer climbing take precedence?
> E

I suppose the simple answer is because the rocks that form the crags have been around for about 450 million years and have weathered to a beautiful weathered, rough and climbable condition.

Conversely, ice and snow or frozen turf is ephemeral on a daily basis even.

Re: kettle.
Mixed winter climbing is my favourite activity.
Jim Lancs - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to KellyKettle:
>
> As far as I can tell, not everyone thinks mixed climbing is a valid activity, and some are willing to conveniently neglect the fact that the lakes was the home to some of the original pioneering mixed routes (long before that name was applied, with winter ascents on rock faces dating as far bad as the 1890's) whilst talking about preserving classics... Is preserving the heritage and furthering the tradition of improving the standard of mixed climbing not important too?

We're not debating about what constitutes a valid activity, we're debating about where it's appropriate for the various types of winter climbing to be practiced. In the bigger picture, aid climbing, via ferrata and sports climbing are all entirely valid activities, but they come with downsides which the majority of climbers believe make them inappropriate on Lakeland mountain crags.

This debate is about the 'limits of appropriateness' in the broad church that is winter climbing. We already accept that they are limits with regard to environmental damage in unfrozen conditions, etc which were never thought of when I was a lad, but now are central in considering where to climb.

These 'limits of appropriateness' also have to be considered in the specific context of the Lake District and the pressures it is under today. What we got away with in the past and what the pioneers did 100 years ago are history. We, the current climbers might have to accept limits on our 'fun' to ensure that the best of the Likes passes on to future generations.
KellyKettle - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to Euge)
> [...]
>
> Re: kettle.
> Mixed winter climbing is my favourite activity.

We're on the same page there then at least.

But I still feel that creating guidelines which exclude mixed on any line which has one or more characteristics that would be desirable for a rock climb (regardless of the existence or feasibility of a rock climb) is pushing the compromise too far one way, I'm not convinced by excluding all summer lines regardless of their merits and utilization (or more importantly lack of) but it's rather more understandable as part of a compromise solution...

Part of me feels that a Guideline with a spirit of "Don't climb existing summer routes, but feel free to try new lines which don't cause environmental damage" could be a good thing for the sport, It would certainly be in-line with the heritage of mixed climbing in the lakes... Climbing new lines is also IMO rather more interesting (Though I've only done a thimbleful).

In reply to Jim Lancs:
> (In reply to KellyKettle)
> [...]
>
> We're not debating about what constitutes a valid activity, we're debating about where it's appropriate for the various types of winter climbing to be practiced. In the bigger picture, aid climbing, via ferrata and sports climbing are all entirely valid activities, but they come with downsides which the majority of climbers believe make them inappropriate on Lakeland mountain crags.
>
> This debate is about the 'limits of appropriateness' in the broad church that is winter climbing.
>
> These 'limits of appropriateness' also have to be considered in the specific context of the Lake District and the pressures it is under today. [...] to ensure that the best of the Likes passes on to future generations.

Very succinctly put, I wasn't aiming the "valid activity" comment at this thread in particular so much as the opinions I've heard coming from all over the shop when discussing this subject... It was probably unnecessary in this context with hindsight, but (and I assume I'm not alone in this) I do find ethics discussions exasperating enough to make me run my mouth a bit.
Wesley Orvis - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Exile:
> (In reply to Wesley Orvis)
>
> No probs Wesley - I know you get out a lot and as a fellow winter climber living in Kendal I always enjoy reading your write ups and am appreciative of your conditions reports,

Thanks appreciated comment. If you ever fancy taking a newbie up something harder give me a shout.

Yes i can see what you mean, between the pic of you climbing Two Grooves compared to the other pics, you can see that little damage would be done climbing in conditions when you climbed it compared to some of the other pics, i suppose their is a lot of grey area when conditions are inbetween, which i presume is part of the problem.

LakesWinter on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to LakesWinter)
> [...]

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree about Bowfell Buttress then.
>
> So far as Botterills is concerned, we are on thin ice to coin a phrase. I do not believe the route remains untouched by winter gear. I believe all Scafell rock-climbing classics should be off-limits.
>

In terms of new routing I agree that 2 and 3 star summer classics should not be done in winter as new routes. Where existing routes are in question then I think a case by case or crag by crag approach would be more helpful. Some lines are obvious to my mind - D route on Gimmer or Eliminate A on Dow are not winter routes, take no drainage and dont hold the snow, even though they've had at least 1 winter ascent each. therefore future winter ascents would be out of order. C Ordinary though does accumulate neve, is super polished from summer ascents and was first climbed in winter in the 1910s, therefore to my mind that route would be ok for dual use on the rare occasions it gets enough snow on it. So, that would be a greyer area to my mind.

That said, I don't hold with your suggestion of a blanket ban on new routing of 1 star routes. There are many routes in the excellent new FRCC guides, which get a star but I wouldnt mind betting they never get done in summer, but would be pretty good in winter, e.g. a couple of the routes on Honister Crag that have recently been climbed in winter.
Exile - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

To be honest Wesley I don't think my ascent would have caused less damage necessarily. I think mixed climbing will scratch routes, but if people climbed in proper nick there would simply be fewer ascents.

Along side this I can't help but think that some of the mythical quality that makes up winter climbing in Britain - the whole right place, right time thing - is gradually being eroded by a bit of an "I'm here now so I'm going to do it regardless" attitude. This is particularly true with Two Grooves as it is the only route of its grade on BCC so if people turn up really wanting to climb it, (or I suspect wanting to climb IV 6,) and its not in there are no alternatives.
brokenbanjo - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

I wonder where the OP stands on gardening? Which is surely a much more insidious way to damage the upland environment. Is it fair game, or do the plant communities on our crags play second fiddle to the whims of the summer climbing hordes?
Dave Cumberland - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to brokenbanjo:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
>
> I wonder where the OP stands on gardening? Which is surely a much more insidious way to damage the upland environment. Is it fair game, or do the plant communities on our crags play second fiddle to the whims of the summer climbing hordes?

Gardening grass, heather, moss or common veggies not an issue. No one would touch anything rare. However, until you remove the sheep, the bracken and the tourists, any gardening discussion is academic.
DC
brokenbanjo - on 20 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

So you are telling me that the removal of any vegetation is justified and that every climber is a botanist that can identify what is rare? Bollocks. The rare plants are pretty much trapped on the cliffs because of the sheep. The gardening discussion is as academic then as the whole 'tooling' debate.
Michael Ryan - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to brokenbanjo)
> [...]
>
> Gardening grass, heather, moss or common veggies not an issue. No one would touch anything rare. However, until you remove the sheep, the bracken and the tourists, any gardening discussion is academic.
> DC

Are you sure about that Dave? This is actually at the heart of the issue. The community of plants on cliffs can be quite unique and often contain rare species that many wouldn't be able to identify. They are often isolated from grazing by sheep, and other disturbance. The soils can be very old and be home to rare species of soil animals.

Whilst climbers can't do anything about sheep and we are of course tourists ourselves, but we can minimise our impact when climbing whether in summer or winter, whilst still enjoying our climbing.

Would you rather we (individual climbers, the BMC, guidebook publishers) as a community draw up guidelines and good practice, or should we leave it to non-climbers?

This is a good read:

The North Wales White guide is a free guide to inform and educate winter climbers in Snowdonia on how best to enjoy the area, while at the same time minimising the potential damage to protected habitats and fragile environments.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/north-wales-white-guide
Michael Ryan - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> [...]
>

> Would you rather we (individual climbers, the BMC, guidebook publishers) as a community draw up guidelines and good practice, or should we leave it to non-climbers?


The BMC seem to think so:

'By following the simple, yet highly informative advice in the guide it’s hoped that both winter climbing and conservation can successfully co-exist at these venues, avoiding the need for formal or statutory controls on climbing at these sites.'
Dave Cumberland - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> Would you rather we (individual climbers, the BMC, guidebook publishers) as a community draw up guidelines and good practice, or should we leave it to non-climbers?

This thread is about Lake District Winter Climbing ethics. It is concerned with protecting the 450 million year old rock and the classic rock climbs thereon. The plant life is a separate or side issue.

However, we are concerned about the Lake District environment. Yet this is being so effectively trashed by many other agents, that the climbing impact is probably very minor in comparison to the rest. We climb on a tiny percentage of the available crags and hillsides in the Lakes, and generally on the bits without or with little vegetation.

Our responsibility however, is a personal one. It is each individuals job NOT to damage anything that should be protected, or not crapping all over the place, and we need to police that responsibility ourselves. Climbers are intelligent enough to read forums like this and manage themselves on a mountain so they are perfectly capable of knowing about protected species - they are described in the FRCC guidebooks.

A separate thread for botanists could be justified I'm sure but for the time being my main concern is what is happening to our classic routes.
Michael Ryan - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH)
> [...]
>
> This thread is about Lake District Winter Climbing ethics. It is concerned with protecting the 450 million year old rock and the classic rock climbs thereon. The plant life is a separate or side issue.

Well, there I disagree with Dave. Ethics, our activities and the environment are all connected.

If you want climbing freedom most recognise that.
biscuit - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

It is precisely because we are climbers that we cause a disproportionate amount of damage compared to some other groups.

We go places where others don't - steep faces, gullies etc. where rare plants live because either that's their habitat or they've ended up there due to being eradicated from other places.
Milesy - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> It is concerned with protecting the 450 million year old rock

C'mon. That is a poor argument. It is not about protecting millions of years old rock. You think the 100 years we have been climbing on rocks has any substantial effect on the grand scheme of time? Sorry to bring up an old point but is polish, and worn gear placements not as physically damaging to rock than crampon scratches are. I find all horrible to look at equally. The elements and time will change the character of the rock much more than we ever will. The corries and slopes are full of talus as a direct result of the slow process of destruction that you will never see in your short life time.
Dave Cumberland - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Michael Ryan - UKC and UKH:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> [...]
>
> Well, there I disagree with Dave. Ethics, our activities and the environment are all connected.
>
> If you want climbing freedom most recognise that.

That's exactly what I said!
DC
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> And because we have moved on from aid climbing.

Oh for gawds sake, not that one again.

Regardless of the rights or wrongs of winter climbing in the lake district, whenever someone brings out the 'mixed is aid climbing' line, it just shows everyone that they don't really understand mixed climbing OR aid climbing.

It appears we haven't moved on from the early 90s discussion of this!
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Dave Cumberland - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)

> It appears we haven't moved on from the early 90s discussion of this!

Read the post at 14.15 Tuesday wise-guy.
In reply to Dave Cumberland: I had which made it all the more bizarre that you resorted to that old chestnut. Presumably you've aid climbed too then? I'm not really sure what sitting in a harness while fiddling with gear has to do with the movement you make whilst ice or mixed climbing?
andrewmcleod - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

I for one am fed up of these 'trad' climbers destroying the climbs. We should respect these climbs by doing them in the way they were done in the past, respecting the history of British climbing - as winter climbs.

Summer climbing is just people who can't climb hard enough bringing these climbs down to their level. If you want to climb these routes, you should just train harder!

All this 'retro-cleaning' is destroying the climbs, and is destroying the natural environment we live in. And it's very well saying that people can just climb on the same route in winter - but when you are 40 feet above your last ice screw, and there is a good nut placement in a crack where there would have been vegetation before, who isn't going to place a nut? It destroys the adventure for those who want to climb it in the proper way.
NottsRich on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to TobyA)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Read the post at 14.15 Tuesday wise-guy.


It's comments like that, from people like yourself and jcm, that make me totally dismissive of anything constructive you might have to say. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Which is a shame, because some of it is probably quite worthwhile.

Dave Cumberland - on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to NottsRich:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> It's comments like that, from people like yourself and jcm, that make me totally dismissive of anything constructive you might have to say. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Which is a shame, because some of it is probably quite worthwhile.

It seems some people on this site do not read postings properly. Go back in that case to the OP.
DC
xplorer on 21 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

You started bad, got worse and absolutely trolled the topic in the end.

As people have said, it's hard to take your comments seriously now.

You seem very angry about this topic. That's not really a good thing when trying to discuss these matters effectively.
NottsRich on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:
> (In reply to NottsRich)
> [...]
>
> It seems some people on this site do not read postings properly. Go back in that case to the OP.
> DC

Is that aimed at me? Believe me, I've read your OP several times and spent a while thinking about it. However, your subsequent aggressive/rude/arrogant posts make me wish I'd not bothered.

Friendly suggestion: Stop before you reply to this (or anyone else) and think "am I being constructive?" If not, then I'd politely suggest that you'll be losing (potential) supporters for your campaign rather than gaining them and you might want to rephrase your message.

Good luck. Your heart seems to be in the right place, even if perhaps you aren't the best ambassador for the cause.

LakesWinter on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to NottsRich:
Can we all get back to the original purpose of the thread, which is to discuss what is and is not acceptable in terms of lakes winter climbing. There is too much spray and vitriol. Only an idiot thinks climbing in unfrozen nick is ok, so lets end that side to the thread. The new frcc guides actively discourage summer gardening of new lines, so that's a red herring too. The point of the thread is to discuss what is and is not on in terms of winter climbing.

My proposal is that 2 and 3 star lines are not generally opened as new winter lines, whereas 1 and no star summer routes or routes with significantly diffrent lines to the summer version of the route are ok. The question of existing lines is another matter....
LakesWinter on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter: o yeah and what was the outcome of the meeting on tues, sorry I couldn't get over, I didn't have a pass for the night from the boss!
malk - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter: no summer routes with stars unless otherwise stated is simpler?
LakesWinter on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to malk: But also not correct in my view as in the new frcc guides there are many 1 star routes that hardly ever get done in summer but make for better and more reliable winter routes.
NottsRich on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter:
> (In reply to NottsRich)
My proposal is that 2 and 3 star lines are not generally opened as new winter lines, whereas 1 and no star summer routes or routes with significantly diffrent lines to the summer version of the route are ok. The question of existing lines is another matter....


Whatever the solution, it's not going to please everyone, so some sort of sweeping generalisation is needed. What you suggest sounds reasonable as a starting point.

Why not roll that out to existing winter lines as well? Exceptions to the rule can be argued on an individual basis.

mockerkin on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Jim Lancs:
> (In reply to KellyKettle)
> [...]
>
> We're not debating about what constitutes a valid activity, we're debating about where it's appropriate for the various types of winter climbing to be practiced. In the bigger picture, aid climbing, via ferrata and sports climbing are all entirely valid activities, but they come with downsides which the majority of climbers believe make them inappropriate on Lakeland mountain crags.

>> You forgot the Honister zip wire, a cynical attempt to make money, supported by people who should know better with no regard to the pass.
>
> This debate is about the 'limits of appropriateness' where to climb.
>
> These 'limits of appropriateness' also have to be considered in the specific context of the Lake District and the pressures it is under today. What we got away with in the past and what the pioneers did 100 years ago are history. We, the current climbers might have to accept limits on our 'fun' to ensure that the best of the Likes passes on to future generations.

>> It's refreshing to read a post that takes a wider view of the Lakes crags. Unlike many previous posters who have squabbled about particular crags, some of whom start with "I never climb in the Lakes" and then go on to tell everyone what's right or wrong.




malk - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter: how about upgrading selected summer routes to 1 star and demoting a few others no stars and then say no starred climbing in winter?
simples ;)
armus on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

The climbing world is international but when we come down to county level,
surely the locals know best, e.g.


>> It's refreshing to read a post that takes a wider view of the Lakes crags. Unlike many previous posters who have squabbled about particular crags, some of whom start with "I never climb in the Lakes" and then go on to tell everyone what's right or wrong.
Exile - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter:

My understanding of the meeting on Tuesday are as follows. (Minutes will be published shortly so I will reiterate that the below are MY understandings not an official document.)

Reasonably well attended.

Main issue is the rendering unclimbable in Summer or Winter of certain routes, or routes in the future, through damaging holds and / or gear placements as a result of a relatively few winter ascents.

Agreement on the need to move forward on a set of guidelines to reduce the above risk.

The ideas for doing this are those put here, (look at the principles NOT the examples,) http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=560164 and added in was the idea of using the star rating of Summer routes in the FRCC guides.

The meeting finished with an agreement to move forward with a working group, (volunteers were asked for,) and to try to include those climbers who are currently putting up winter ascents of difficult Summer rock routes who were not present. (Brian Davidson, Steve Ashworth and Paddy Cave were not present but all sent their apologies.)
Rick Graham on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Exile:

Nice neat summary, Huw.

There were actually two main subjects to discuss.

The preservation of rare fauna and vegetation.
Climb in frozen conditions and with good snow cover especially on some gully lines. This applies generally to easier routes and is well covered by existing guidebooks. Some climbs are in SSSI's so potentially the guidelines have legal status.

The newer problem is the "main issue" of Exile's post.
This should be the main thrust of the new working group.
A lot of confusion and misunderstanding has taken place because of mixing the two issues IMHO.
Exile - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter:

I've put this separately to avoid any idea that this is anything official - it is not, just MY own ideas.

For what it's worth my solution would be:

1. Reinforce a strict winter ethic to preserve the ethos of winter, and in this case particular mixed winter, climbing. Mixed routes that are mainly the ascent of snowed up rock, (that could be termed 'modern mixed') - relying largely on tools on rock for progress, (rather than those of snowy buttresses which can rely on snow, ice, turf and rock for progress, that could be termed traditional mixed,) - ideally look like this:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=133638

And definitely not this:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=165343

I am not a confrontational person but I feel that we do need to challenge the type of ascent as depicted in the second photo - if people are willing to post these type of images on UKC they are obviously not embarrassed by their ascents and see nothing wrong with them.

2. A decision on which crags could and couldn’t be climbed on in winter.

3. A request that 2 and 3 star Summer rock routes on the crags designated ‘Winter Crags’ that have not had winter ascents do not receive winter ascents.

4. An agreement that those 2 and 3 star Summer rock routes on designated winter crags that have seen winter ascents are still seen as legitimate winter objectives. (Some routes would be explicitly remove from this list, for example higher grade Summer lines that have received winter ascents but are ‘under threat’ – possibly Snickersnack, 1984 and potentially some others.*)

*These were two routes sighted at the meeting where it was thought by those who had climbed them in Summer that they would potentially become unclimbable in Summer, and potentially Winter too, after a relatively small number of ascents. Having climbed neither in either Summer or Winter I'm not qualified to say, but I can see how this may well be the case.

I think the above would preserve Summer classics, (I know you can argue about Bowfell Buttress, Bottrills Slab and Engineer Slab, but I think these are equally worth Summer and Winter objectives now - personal view,**) ensure winter climbing doesn't take place on unsuitable crags, (Gimmer may well be in this list for example,) and still provide quality winter 'modern mixed' objectives for present and future generations.

(**However I would try to encourage the 'strict winter ethic' as described in point one in relation to these routes - which if adhered to would reduce the number of ascents, for what it's worth.)

Exile - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Rick Graham:

Quite right Rick.

Huw
malk - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Exile: i still think the star distinction between 1 and 2 has problems. none or some i say..
i'll shut up now..
Exile - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to malk:

So did some at the meeting. One star routes being allowed as winter objectives is just my view, but based on my own experience of climbing one star routes that are far better winter than summer lines. I think the key thing to remember about my proposal is that a one star route would only be eligible for a winter ascent if it was on a designated winter crag.
LakesWinter on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Rick Graham: thanks for the summary of the meeting Huw, RIck I fully agree that the two issues get muddled and it is important to be clear about the difference between environmental concerns and concerns to do with scratching the rock and damaging classic summer routes.

I think that the approach used in Wales where certain areas of certain cliffs are designated rock only, could work. On glyder fach there are lots of great winter lines and some classic rock routes, which are explicitly not for winter use so to speak. a similar crag in the lakes would be Pavey Ark, which has some quality Winter lines and a range of excellent rock routes that should be left alone in winter. Similarly on
Gimmer the majority of the crag is really a rock only venue, but the vegetated grooves left of outside Tokyo do contain some legitimate winter interest IMHO.
LakesWinter on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Exile: I would agree with the 1 star routes often being valid winter objectives and in many cases 1 star routes on mountain crags are rarely if ever climbed in summer.

Winter lines that follow vegetated and wet alternatives to summer routes are also ok IMHO, even if based around the same line.
Jim Lancs - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter:
>
> I think that the approach used in Wales where certain areas of certain cliffs are designated rock only, could work. On glyder fach there are lots of great winter lines and some classic rock routes, which are explicitly not for winter use so to speak. a similar crag in the lakes would be Pavey Ark, which has some quality Winter lines and a range of excellent rock routes that should be left alone in winter. Similarly on
> Gimmer the majority of the crag is really a rock only venue, but the vegetated grooves left of outside Tokyo do contain some legitimate winter interest IMHO.

There was also a feeling at the meeting that relying on 'good conditions', or a system based on stars, etc wouldn't provide the protection needed for the rock routes we all enjoy in the summer. So the working group is going to look at a similar idea to Wales where quite specific guidance is given where is 'in' for winter and where should be avoided.

But the system that will ultimately evolve must have widespread support from all Lakes winter climbers, and that will partly come from a growing acceptance that the Lakes is a unique climbing area and shouldn't be seen as being 'the same as Scotland' but a bit further south.
LakesWinter on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Jim Lancs: yeah, it's better than Scotland!
Dave Cumberland - on 22 Aug 2013
In reply to Exile:
> (In reply to malk)
>
> So did some at the meeting. One star routes being allowed as winter objectives is just my view, but based on my own experience of climbing one star routes that are far better winter than summer lines. I think the key thing to remember about my proposal is that a one star route would only be eligible for a winter ascent if it was on a designated winter crag.

Whether rock routes are zero-starred, one or two stars is often subjective and very arbitrary. I would re-iterate the point that there are many no-starred or one-starred routes that are excellent rock climbs - that do not deserve to be trashed by axes and crampons.
Examples would be Velocette, Green Crag Buttress, Groove 1 on Buckstone, Hanging Chimneys Direct.
Rather than stars, criteria from the OP are more definitive at protecting rock routes imho.
DC
.
Exile - on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

In my opinion a route by route decision would in theory be the best option but in practice this would be so much work involving so many people that there would be a very real risk that the whole process would grind to a halt / taking many years and so we would in effect be no further forward. Alongside this it would be highly likely that all that info could not be contained in a winter guide book that is usable on the hill, (in my mind I wouldn't want to see anything larger than the latest addition.)

I am sure the star system is not completely bullet proof, but it has already come into existence through a good number of climbers who know the routes sitting down and deciding on their quality. In my mind this largely duplicating the work that would need to be done in the route by route 'winter worthy analysis' described above.
Exile - on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to Jim Lancs:
> (In reply to LakesWinter)
> [...]
>

> But the system that will ultimately evolve must have widespread support from all Lakes winter climbers, and that will partly come from a growing acceptance that the Lakes is a unique climbing area and shouldn't be seen as being 'the same as Scotland' but a bit further south.

Very well put Jim.

Exile - on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to LakesWinter:

I'd agree, but the often referred to example here is Bottrills Slab, (which I do think is a great route that should be able to be enjoyed by climbers climbing in both Summer and Winter,) and what is often overlooked is that the first and third pitches are common to both the Summer and Winter lines.

We're there other examples you had in mind?
3leggeddog on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Wow, I hadn't even posted the annual winter sweepstake thread!

Here we go again

blah, blah, summer climbing is somehow more worthy than winter climbing blah blah scratch marks, blah blah rules and regs, blah blah.

Instead of working on opinion, let's work on evidence:

Can anybody cite a summer route that has had its character significantly changed by winter ascents, by this I do not mean aesthetics (scratches) but broken holds which significantly affect the nature or difficulty of the climbing. I cannot think of any.

Are scratch marks any worse than chalk/rubber stains? Think of it this way; scratch marks affect a small amount of the population (climbers) as they are only visible close up, chalk/rubber stains on steep sheltered rock are rarely/never rinsed off by the rain and are visible from a greater distance by a much larger amount of the population (anyone walking past). I suspect this lead to the recent damage at Robin Hoods Stride.

I think it is time to accept that all climbing does some damage and just get on with it.

Dave, give it a go, go climb Engineers Slab or Jabberwock next winter, you never know, you might enjoy it more than complaining on the internet
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Wesley Orvis - on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to 3leggeddog:

You attitude is shit mate.

If everybody had this attitude our mountains would be trashed, your probablyt the mug who left all the mess up at Stickle Tarn i had to clean up this summmer.

I used to be of this opinion until i started climbing summer rock routes and noticed all the damage and realised it is not sustainable, get up out of the arm chair now and again and maybe go for a climb on BB, Engneer's Slab or any of the other classics and you might just notice the damage for yourself.
3leggeddog on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

I have seen the "damage" but it is aesthetic damage. The frankly excellent winter routes that BB, ES, BS, Pisgah, etc are, are scratched but they have not changed fundamentally, the quality of both winter and summer climbing remain the same as they always were. You have to be very up close and personal with the crag to see the scratches, that cannot be said about the chalk stains I mentioned earlier.

Thanks for your accusation and your full and frank evaluation of my argument though
Wesley Orvis - on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to 3leggeddog:
> (In reply to Wesley Orvis)
> Thanks for your accusation and your full and frank evaluation of my argument though

No problem glad to be of some assistance.

I am sure that overtime and many more ascents these aesthetic scratches will turn into damage like the damage photographed on the Langdale Boulders a few years ago, on BB their are parts were pieces of rock has broken off on certain holds i am sure, someone more experienced who climbed it many years ago may have to confirm this as i have only done it twice both in the last few years so cannot confirm this.

Sorry for the accusations by the way!!!!!

jkarran - on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to xplorer:

> Great!!!!
> And how are you going to implement these guidelines?

He just did.

> Genuine question here, have any of these debates, meetings, and threads ever made any difference?

Yes. Why do you climb the way you do today?
jk
Dave Cumberland - on 23 Aug 2013
In reply to 3leggeddog:
> (In reply to Dave Cumberland)
> Can anybody cite a summer route that has had its character significantly changed by winter ascents, by this I do not mean aesthetics (scratches) but broken holds which significantly affect the nature or difficulty of the climbing. I cannot think of any.

> .. .. give it a go, go climb Engineers Slab or Jabberwock next winter, you never know, you might enjoy it more than complaining on the internet

First point - Yes - Snicker Snack, Bowfell Buttress, Engineer's Slab - demolition work still in progress, especially since the new winter guide.

Second point - we climb all winter in all conditions, so I may well go and do Engineer's Slab some time, but I will be wearing rock shoes and using the handholds and not using axes and crampons. I will step over the ice and verglas, but that won't be difficult as there will hardly be any as usual - see extract from 2008 message posted here to illustrate my point (I suspect the message was tongue in cheek):

In answer to your question, taking Dovedale as an example yesterday, where my mates climbed Westmorland's route: Black Crag Icefall was forming but thin and exposed to sun. Inaccessible Gully was forming, but thin and unclimbable.
There was negligible snow (old and hard), lots of verglas, making the paths and rocks underfoot treacherous, including the dreadful constructed staircase up past Dove Crag.
Westmorland's route was dry but affected by verglas and ice/hoare on the vegetation, so under the conditions, climbed in rock shoes by hand, it was Grade 9, technical 8, or about VS. So no axes required. It was minus 3C on top of Dove Crag apparently.
29 Dec 2008
Andrew Holden - on 29 Aug 2013
In reply to 3leggeddog: well said mr dog.
xplorer on 29 Aug 2013
In reply to jkarran:
> (In reply to xplorer)
>
> [...]
>
> He just did.
>
> [...]
>
> Yes. Why do you climb the way you do today?
> jk

what so because some body post some made up guidelines on UKC that's implemented is it. we both know that doesn't work at all.

and I climb the way I do today, off my own back. nobody has ever told me what I can or can not do when climbing.

your post makes me wonder if you actually have anything constructive about the ethics.

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