/ Marker v Fritschi

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So, for a pair of skis maily for piste with the odd bit of touring, I'm considering moving to Marker bindings over Fritschi. Has anyone tried both who is in a position to comment? My original set up with Fritschi was great, but the whole longitudinal torsion thing with Fritschi is a bit of a limitation.

Thanks.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: PS, I have a ski touring set up with Dynafits - this isn't a Dynafit v Fritschi question!!
Scomuir on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Sorry, can't help with the comparison, but which Fritschi model are you using? I'm interested, as I've never been aware of this "longitudinal torsion" / "sloppy" problem that people mention. It's got to the point that I've been trying to focus on it when turning to see if I notice it, and I just never have, whether skiing hard on piste, or steeper stuff.
In reply to Scomuir: I was using Explorers, an old model. Try this at home - step into your skis. Flex each ankle along the ski axis, there is a degree of longitudinal rotation before the ski itself turns to make an edge bite.
Blinder - on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I have pair of marker dukes, probably ski better than Fritches but are bloody heavy. I bought them for resort with a little bit of touring but hardy use them if there is a chance of skinning. They are mounted on heavier ski so maybe it isnot a fair comparison.
Scomuir on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I guess we're not comparing like for like. I use the freeride pros, and have them cranked up.

To me, the motion you are describing would be consistent with a release (which you would want if you were twisting your ankle to put pressure on the toe like that), rather than something that happens when you are actually skiing.
Dave Kerr - on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I used some bottom of the range Fritschis for a few seasons when I started. I also used Markers for 2 lift accessed trips but sold them as I realised the weight would mean I never use them in Scotland as I almost never use the lifts here.

Are you sure its not just wear / age of your Fritschis?

Personally I never noticed the slop in the Fritschis but I was probably too inexperienced to feel it anyway. Like you'd expect Markers feel solid but the change from ski to tour is less straightforward and the mechanism prone to clogging with snow although its easily cleared. The Marker heel lift also offers fewer options than the Fritschi.

I'd say that if its mainly lift accessed and you have another pair of skis for touring then the markers might edge it.
Pinch'a'salt on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

For piste performance go with the Marker, even the Tour 12 (or whatever they will be called this year) are torsionally stiffer than the Fritschis.

Re the Fristchi 'slop' - its the most-used word but not the right word... Its not 'slop' (unless you haven't set the toe height right) but lack of torsional rigidity. The only way to really feel it is to ski a pair of skis with alpine bindings then ski thensame skis with Fritschis - the difference in edge precision is huge.

Of course, in reality, a large percentage of skiers will notice no difference as their edging/skiing skills are not that refined (no offence to anyone on here! :-) ). And in soft snow it is of little consequence as the torsional forces are much lower...
blurty - on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I have some Marker Dukes (£120 on ebay, nearly new). They are very good on piste (on some all mountain Dynastars).

A lot better than the old Fritschis I used to use.

You'll already know that you have to take your boot out of the binding to change from downhill, to touring mode; a right pain for sure. Only for use for occasional skinning, to get to side country etc I suggest
Aly - on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I've skiied some very bendy Fritchi's but they were fairly old ones and the newer design is much better. Still, if you are going to get a new pair of bindings I'd go for Markers every time if a fair chunk of their use is going to be lift-served.
kevin stephens - on 06 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
> ..... Has anyone tried both who is in a position to comment? ...>
> Thanks.

I have both. For a few years I skied everything, touring, piste, and off-piste on Fritschi Eagles and Scott Missions and they seemed to cope well. Last year I bought some Whitedot Preachers with Marker F10, mainly for lift serve off piste. I haven't done any skinning in the Markers yet but for downhill they give me a lot of confidence in driving a beefier pair of skis. However going back to the Fritschis I can't say I've noticed them limiting my skiing. The Fritshis seem to me to be better for up hill, particularly the heel lift adjustment for varying inclines.
Phil Ev - on 26 Sep 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

The modern Fritschi Freeride bindings are much more solid than any of their predecessors so discount any experience with old titanals and early freerides etc. Fritschis are reliable and easy to use.

The Marker bindings are bad for touring, they are heavy and annoying to use, they ice up on the plates and mechanism which lock between ski/skin. They are stiff edge to edge but there is very little difference between the Freeride pro and marker power transmission.

The Salomon/scott Gaurdian bindings ski like the Markers but have a more sensible touring function. Still heavy though.

If you can afford them, I'd get the Fritschis
In reply to Phil Ev: Phil, yeah, I've come bac kround to Fritschis, the new ones seem to have ironed out problems of previous models. Also, I think it is a major design flaw in bindings when you have to step fully out of the binding to change between modes. Certainly this is a pain in the arse on Dynafit and Marker has the same problem. I will buy Fritschi again!
Oceanic - on 06 Oct 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

The degree of imprecision in Fritschis is affected by the size of the binding and the BSL of your boots. If you use a pair of 315mm BSL boots in a pair of Fritschis that cater for a maximum BSL of 315 mm, then the connection between the boots and the skis is more solid.

Girlfriend has Barons. They are better than Fritschis for resort use because the better 'return to centre' means that you can get away with a lower DIN setting than you would use with a Fritschi. When touring, the Markers are a bit fiddly when clogged with snow, but they still work. Biggest problem is that Markers are vulnerable to damage if you decide to ski a short down hill section without your heels clipped in, to do so is tempting, because it is a faff to change modes.

Of course the Frischis are also vulnerable to damage if you ski downhill without the heels clipped in, but you do it less often, and the design of the toe piece on the Fritschi protects the binding in a 'knee fall' by letting it push backwards. In a similar 'knee fall' the Markers (particularly the F10 / F12) will just break when pushed into the ski, as the Marker toe piece doesn't ride on a spring.

(Knee fall: When you fall forward in tour mode, your knee touches the ski, and a huge force is placed on the binding)
Gael Force - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: I have older Fritschi's and a new pair of Free ride Pro's. There is no slop in the new bindings, I do more touring than piste skiing and wouldn't use anything other than Fritschi as they are so convenient, with all modes being operated with a flick of the ski pole. With the new Free ride pro you can ski with your Harschen fitted and flick them down if needed without removing your ski or boot from the binding, although occasionally they flick down going uphill which is annoying.
Extra weight doesn't bother me as it's good for fitness and worth it to have such a strong binding.
HeMa on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to Scomuir:
> To me, the motion you are describing would be consistent with a release (which you would want if you were twisting your ankle to put pressure on the toe like that), rather than something that happens when you are actually skiing.


Nope, I think the OP is talkin' about torsional slop and loss of edging power.

It used to be quite considerable with the old Diamirs (original Freeride and Titanals, Explorers).

It had nothing to do with release properties and all about binding desing (flaw).

http://www.wildsnow.com/379/backcountry-skiing-binding-flex-tests/

That said, the new Diamir Pro and Eagle what-ever are a lot better than the old crop Diamirs. Duke/Baron is still better, but heavier (and more fiddly when going from skiing to touring and vise versa).


So, if it is only occasional touring with prime emphasis on downhill portion, I would prolly get the Duke (if you're big are aggressive skiing and jumping etc.) or the Baron.
John Roberts (JR) - on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

I've gone from fritschi freeride to Marker Barons. Much less flexion, the fritschi's got sloppy after a couple of seasons. They feel a lot more solid generally. No real complaints about the barons other than going from tour to downhill mode can be fiddly. They are a lot heavier, but if you've got dynafits too then you can take your pick as and when, which is the setup i've gone for.
Haggis Trap on 07 Oct 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Dynafit (or Plums) for proper ski touring.
Marker (or Guardians) for resort based skiing.

The new offerings from Fritschi are much better than the old Diamir's (which i happily skied on between 2002 and 2008). However there is no logical reason to buy them given the improved offerings from other manufacturers.
Phil Ev - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap:

I would argue that there are a few logical reasons to buy fritschi.

If you want a touring binding with a safe, reliable and adjustable release setting at the toe then Fritschi beat Dynafit (unless you want to spend £700 +).

If you want to tour on wider skis the extra stand height and lower ammount of horizontal flex in the heel piece on the fritschis are an advantage over the dynafits.

If you just want one binding to do all your skiing then Fritschi are the best bet in my mind, reliable and lighter and much easier to use than the marker/gaurdian offerings while still skiing well.

birdman - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Phil Ev:

I'm reading this post with great interest. I have previously only ever skied with Fritchi bindings and i'm currently considering buying a new set up but i'm really undecided which way to go.

I definitely want a safe toe release as i'm building up my off piste performance, so falls are possible and i don't want to ruin my knees for the sake of not having toe release just yet!

Anyone heard of or used Tyrolia bindings, they look incredibly like the markers, but with slightly more user friendly tour mechanism.

http://www.tyrolia.com/index.php?id=447&L=3


ads.ukclimbing.com
Haggis Trap on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Phil Ev:

> I would argue that there are a few logical reasons to buy Fritschi.

There were good reasons to buy Fritschi in 2001 ;-)

For proper ski touring then Dynafit is simply better on just about every metric (lighter, stronger, ski better, no stack height, zero lifted weight per stride). Once you have tried dynafit then you will never go back. Saving 300-600g of lifted weight per stride equates to about 1 tonne over a 600m ascent. FWIW Dynafit bindings do release - however only laterally. Without a true vertical release they can never be DIN rated. This is only real disadvantage of dynafit.

If your not getting a tech binding then most of your skiing is in resort : in which case the marker Baron or Duke are all stronger bindings with better alpine performance and a reliable DIN rated release. If you want something lighter then the Marker F12 is better than Fritschi (more torsional rigidity) at the same weight.

Fritschi used to be market leaders in touring bindings. However they simply haven't innovated. There is nothing wrong with them.... they are still reasonable bindings, however the Diamir is fundamentally the same old product they were selling 10 years ago!
graham F - on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: Dynafit bindings release vertically too by spreading the 2 pins - the opposite of stepping in. The vertical and lateral release values are adjusted separately.
http://www.wildsnow.com/1549/dynafit-release-adjustment-tips-tricks/

The reason there's no DIN accreditation is that the release values vary slightly with ski flex, as far as I understand.
graham F - on 08 Oct 2013
Haggis Trap on 08 Oct 2013
In reply to graham F:

^ 100% correct.
IMHO the lack of DIN release in dynafit isn't a big issue for 2 reasons.

1) most sensible people ski a little more cautiously when in remote places.
2) even alpine DIN rated bindings don't always release when you want them to!

The eric hjorleifson video is the classic response for those who still think dynafit is just for mellow meadow skipping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYvM6j56IBk
In reply to Haggis Trap:
> This is only real disadvantage of dynafit.
>
I disagree. Having to step out of the binding to go from downhill mode to touring mode is pish. At best it is a pain in the arse. At worst it can be dangerous if you have to separate yourself from the ski.

Haggis Trap on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

^ I have never been flexible enough to put my skins on or off without taking my skis off. The only occasion where having to step out the bindings can be slightly annoying is on undulating terrain (which isnt a big issue). If the skin track suddenly got exposed then switching to ski mode from tour mode is easy in dynafit by simply rotating the heel (you just cant change back). Also : if you use your ski pole as a lever to quickly change tour modes on a fritshci / marker then the plastic on the heel will break (trust me, I did it!).

There are very good reason the vast majority of UIAGMs guides in the alps use dyanfit bindings. Because the mechanical advantage of zero lifted weight per stride is huge when ascending.

Re : Marker. The reason they ski better than Fritschi is the increased torsional resistance. Look at the single centre bar in a Fritschi - the heel and toe sections can be moved horizontally about this point. Then look at a Marker which has 2 bars linking the heel to toe - much stronger with larger torsional (twisting) resistance between heel and toe.
Dave Kerr - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
> (In reply to Haggis Trap)
> [...]
> I disagree. Having to step out of the binding to go from downhill mode to touring mode is pish. At best it is a pain in the arse. At worst it can be dangerous if you have to separate yourself from the ski.

I find this to be zero hassle in practice and probably quicker as putting skins on whilst clipped in is not easy.

Also, not sure why you' be transitioning from ski to walk in a dangerous position?
Oceanic - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap:
> (In reply to nickinscottishmountains)
> Also : if you use your ski pole as a lever to quickly change tour modes on a fritshci / marker then the plastic on the heel will break (trust me, I did it!).

I turn my pole upside down and use the slight 'pommel' on top of the hand grip to change in and out of tour mode. I can't see how this puts any more strain on the heel lever than using my hand?

top cat - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:
> (In reply to nickinscottishmountains)
> [...]
>
>
> Also, not sure why you' be transitioning from ski to walk in a dangerous position?

I do this quite often, usually after pushing far too far on ski crampons, then realise I'm going to die if I fall or get blown over in the inevitable gale. Then I have to switch to booted crampons in very dicy situations. Guess I just need to learn from experience and switch earlier!

Dave Kerr - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to top cat:
> (In reply to Dave Kerr)
> [...]
>
> I do this quite often, usually after pushing far too far on ski crampons, then realise I'm going to die if I fall or get blown over in the inevitable gale. Then I have to switch to booted crampons in very dicy situations. Guess I just need to learn from experience and switch earlier!

I was talking about going from skiing down to walking with skins on. You're talking about the transition from skiing to booting which is more likely to happen in an exposed position.

Phil Ev - on 09 Oct 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:

I understand that its rare that you would ever need to switch between ski and skin without putting on or taking off skins. There are situations where it helps though, for example skiing on glaciated terrain, if you hit a flat bit you may find releasing the heel on the fritschi type bindings allows you to shuffle forward and get back to the down without removing a ski which makes you vulnerable to crevasse dangers.

I find its useful on the up when on undulating terrain, skins on, and you get to a short bit of down, i find its easier to lock the heel down to slide down with skins on then unlock the heel to carry on up, but its not a deal breaker.

Just to be clear as this thread is in danger of becoming another fritschi/ dynafit discussion that the op wanted to avoid. I like the pin bindings and there is little doubt that for competent skiers having a set of touring skis with dynafits on and a off piste/resort set up with a guardian type binding on is a better option but this is a 2 ski quiver sollution. My favorite one ski quiver option is still fritschis.

It will be interesting when fritschis pin binding with toe release hits the market.

on the subject of toe release, the most common injury stories surrounding Dynafit involve people skiing down with the toe piece locked in skining function, intentionally or not.

Cheers
david000 - on 07 Nov 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

On the subject of the OP, I have both and tend towards the Fritschi's for touring type stuff.

I've not felt that the Fritschi's performance has been a limitation on the downhill.
yehti - on 07 Nov 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I spent a season on a resort with Markers on my skis, doing mainly piste but with touring on my days off.

In downhill mode they behave just like you'd expect a conventional binding to behave which is nice. On the uphill I found they also did the job well with a nice balance point and easy to adjust risers.
However, when it came to changing back they became a faff. There are a lot of grooves which slot together when you put it into downhill mode. These became choked with snow and ice and need to be scraped out first. The first time I discovered this it was snowing horizontally and a good time was not had. I'm slicker with it now (figured out what other bits of kit make good improvised scrapers) but I'm still a bit jealous of friends with Dynafit/Fritschi when we get to changing time.

The Markers work well for days when you're not going to have to change very often, perhaps more "sidecountry" than backcountry. For example, jumping on a lift first thing, heading off down the back of the mountain away from the pistes and then skinning back up to rejoin civilisation.
So if you've already got a Dynafit set up for your bigger tours then the Markers could be a good choice for a more resort-y set up.

I have heard comments about newer Fritschi bindings flexing less than before from others but I suspect it depends on how beefy your skis/skiing style/body is.
Gael Force - on 08 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap:
> (In reply to Phil Ev)
>
> [...]
>
> There were good reasons to buy Fritschi in 2001 ;-)
>
> For proper ski touring then Dynafit is simply better on just about every metric (lighter, stronger, ski better, no stack height, zero lifted weight per stride). Once you have tried dynafit then you will never go back. Saving 300-600g of lifted weight per stride equates to about 1 tonne over a 600m ascent. FWIW Dynafit bindings do release - however only laterally. Without a true vertical release they can never be DIN rated. This is only real disadvantage of dynafit.
>
> If your not getting a tech binding then most of your skiing is in resort : in which case the marker Baron or Duke are all stronger bindings with better alpine performance and a reliable DIN rated release. If you want something lighter then the Marker F12 is better than Fritschi (more torsional rigidity) at the same weight.
>
> Fritschi used to be market leaders in touring bindings. However they simply haven't innovated. There is nothing wrong with them.... they are still reasonable bindings, however the Diamir is fundamentally the same old product they were selling 10 years ago!

Do you tour in a strange way, I don't lift my feet up off the snow to go uphill, possibly you are a beginner? Why do you say there is a lifted weight every stride, do you hop on your skis going uphill? Most people push the ski forward, leaving it flat on the snow, mine glide forward with little effort on my Fritschi Freeride Pro's. I find the ability to raise the heel to 3 different heights very useful, a real bonus on these bindings, and also the fact it has it's own ski crampon which flips up and down with your pole allowing you to utilise it without taking your ski off.
The only disadvantage I find is when I carry them long distances on my sack,usually in crap conditions in Scotland. I suppose in these conditions you might have to lift your boot up to avoid rocks!
Very strong secure binding with excellent release as opposed to the Dynafit with poor release.
Haggis Trap on 08 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

^ Yawn. Another clueless punter with the misconception that Dyanfit is just for meadow skipping :)

> as opposed to the Dynafit with poor release.

you do know the verticals have a DIN of 10 ? and that if you lock the toe that is equivalent to DIN 25 ? Dyanfit pre-release is almost always a result of mis-use / lack of attention.

> Why do you say there is a lifted weight every stride

With a tech binding the toe of your boot pivots in the inserts.
With a Fritschi / Marker binding you need to lift the entire weight of the binding frame in order to raise your heel off the ski.

This might not seem like much difference : however over a 600m skin it equates to about a tonne of "lifted weight per stride", which is a huge saving. The first time I used dyanfit bindings it was a real "eureka" moment just how much more effecient they are.
Dave Kerr - on 08 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap:
> (In reply to Gael Force)
>
> The first time I used dyanfit bindings it was a real "eureka" moment just how much more effecient they are.

I second that.
Dave Kerr - on 08 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:
> (In reply to Haggis Trap)
> [...]
>> Very strong secure binding with excellent release as opposed to the Dynafit with poor release.

Have you tried them?

Gael Force - on 09 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap:
> (In reply to Gael Force)
>
> ^ Yawn. Another clueless punter with the misconception that Dyanfit is just for meadow skipping :)
>
> [...]
>
> you do know the verticals have a DIN of 10 ? and that if you lock the toe that is equivalent to DIN 25 ? Dyanfit pre-release is almost always a result of mis-use / lack of attention.
>
> [...]
>
> With a tech binding the toe of your boot pivots in the inserts.
> With a Fritschi / Marker binding you need to lift the entire weight of the binding frame in order to raise your heel off the ski.
>
> This might not seem like much difference : however over a 600m skin it equates to about a tonne of "lifted weight per stride", which is a huge saving. The first time I used dyanfit bindings it was a real "eureka" moment just how much more effecient they are.

>A tonne of lifted weight per stride- Your grasp of physics seems a bit tenuous, most of the weight of the binding is still screwed onto the ski, you only push the ski forward with the weight of the plate attached. I find Dynafit are a pain in the arse to use, taking your boot in and out between modes or to fit ski crampons. I certainly don't like the idea of locking out my toe binding. There's no heel raise either which makes quite a big difference in effort on steep sections. Your obviously a bit of an internet warrior calling people clueless punters on line, not so sure you would do that face to face, your grasp of the pro's and cons of Dynafit seems a bit short on facts, the lightness of Dynafit seems to me there only advantage, against of number of disadvantages.
Gael Force - on 09 Nov 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr: Aye I've tried them, but as above I prefer the new Freeride Pro binding, my only issue is carrying them long distances on my sack in the usual poor snow conditions at home in Scotland at the end of the season. Having said that I'll probably try the new Fritschi pin binding this season, I can try anything and get a good discount being a seasonaire in France.
Haggis Trap on 09 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

> A tonne of lifted weight per stride

No, you save about 300-500g of lifted weight per stride. Integrated over a 600m vertical ascent (say 1000+ strides) that equates to a huge amount of effort.

> most of the weight of the binding is still screwed onto the ski

With a tech binding you don't ever lift any part of the binding off the ski. With a Fritschi / Marker you need to move almost the whole binding to raise your heel off the ski.

> taking your boot in and out between modes or to fit ski crampons

irrelevant, as most people aren't flexible enough to fit or remove skins with out taking their skis off. Also you *can* fit dynafit harschein without removing boot from binder.

> I certainly don't like the idea of locking out my toe binding

Correct. However its a nice feature for those exposed occasions when you really don't want to lose a ski.

> There's no heel raise

Wrong. Even the original TLT speed has a heel riser.
You just rotate the heel section (can be done with a ski pole etc)

> your grasp of the pro's and cons of Dynafit seems a bit short on facts

Really ?

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with Fritschi bindings (I used them 2000->2009) and they are an OK compromise. Even went up Mont Blanc (twice!) on them. However the single bar of the Diamir means the design will always be lacking in torsional stiffness between the heel and toe.

These days Marker's / Guardians are better for lift accessed off piste skiing and Dynafit / Plums better for ski touring. (marker F12 is same weight as Fritschi but skis much better due due to the dual bar / increased rigidity).
Dave Kerr - on 09 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:
> (In reply to Haggis Trap)
> [...]
>
> > There's no heel raise either which makes quite a big difference in effort on steep sections.

To be fair to Haggis Trap that is a bit clueless. You can't have spent much time on them if you didn't notice the heel lift.

It seems to me that lots of the folks who dyslike dynafits haven't actually spent much (or any!) time on them. Perhaps tried them for a day and thought 'this is a bit fiddlier than a piste binding' and sacked it.

I love the binding debate. It's like 29er v 26er on the MTB forums, both work, nobody denies it but people get right stewed up anyway.
Haggis Trap on 09 Nov 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr:

the binding debate is a classic 1st world problem....

FWIW : in 20 odd years of skiing I only ever had a couple of "eureka" gear moments. first powder turns on 100mm wideski was one. the other was first dynafit ski tour.
Gael Force - on 09 Nov 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr: I only used them for one day and as I say didn't like them, but Ive never had skis with a piste binding as you call it, since I was a child, so it wasn't anything to do with fiddling about, although I did find them much more awkward than the binding I was using then.
My main issue is the lack of elasticity and well known breakage issues, and of course pre release, unless you lock the toe, which Mr Trap ignores.
Haggis Trap on 09 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

You keep coming back for more :-)

> lack of elasticity

true, however seeing as you just brought that up I am guessing you just googled it ? rather based on real world experience ? personally I think tech bindings ski better than due to the much lower stack height + less slop. though I agree there is not much play in them - you are either "in" or "out" of them

> well known breakage issues

all touring bindings *can* break.
personally I have seen very few broken dynafit. being mechanically simply there is very little to snap. the biggest issue is taking a fall in touring mode and ripping the toe screws out of the ski (which can happen to any touring binder as it is the highest torque scenario)

> of course pre release,

almost all dynafit pre-release is user error / bad adjustment.
badly adjusted fritschis also pre-release when the forward tension is wrong.

have a look what bindings almost every chamonix extremo use for steep skiing ;-)

> unless you lock the toe

I dont do it often. however it is a nice option to have.
Dave Kerr - on 09 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:
> (In reply to Dave Kerr) I> My main issue is the lack of elasticity and well known breakage issues, and of course pre release, unless you lock the toe, which Mr Trap ignores.

I think a lot of waryness around dynafits is based on the old models which had a bit of a 'made in my shed' look about them. I've never encountered the problems you mention and don't know anyone who has.

There's problems and issues with all bindings, for example I've had a Fritschi pop into walk mode whilst skiing on a few occaisions. Quite scary on Aladdins! I've also experienced more pre-releases with Fritschis than Dynafits but a lot of that was probably due to inexperience on my part.
Gael Force - on 10 Nov 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr: The problems I am talking about are quite well reported on the internet, pre release, why do you think people lock them down if pre release is not a known issue.
The binding I tried was an old one and I wasn't keen on it at all, perhaps the new ones are better but as tech binding they are still prone to breakage and prerelease.
My reason for posting was that Mr Trap is quite self opinionated posting his opinions as facts when all they are, are his opinions.
The fact neither you nor him have never seen a broken Dynafit is irrelevant unless you work for Dynafit and are likely to see all the returns. I've never seen a broken Fritschi and have probably been skiing longer than both of you put together, but that's not relevant either.
I do know the old Titanial 11 binding was prone to breaking at the toe after heavy landings because a guy who worked in a ski shop in Zermatt told me who serviced them.,,now his opinion is relevant.
The newer Fritschi binding is much improved on those old models, I have both and there is no comparison.The older ones having some movement at the toe, which is not present in the new ones.That never bothered me as when I was climbing a lot I skied in and out of climbs using my climbing boot and Siveretta bindings and got used to compensating for looseness in the system.
Don't know if I could do that now, to used to a stiffer randonnee boot!
The new Zenith pin binding Fritschi are producing is supposed to iron out the problems which put people off the Dynafit and I will certainly try that when I go to France in a couple of weeks when its
available.
Haggis Trap on 10 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

> Mr Trap is quite self opinionated posting his opinions as facts

Such as the FACT that dynafits have always had heel risers ?
... the stack height is lower ?
... tech bindings are *much* lighter ?
... you can lock the toe ?
... you can fit ski crampons with out removing the boot ?
<etc>

I am amused that you got so worked up ;-)

For sure dyanfit isn't perfect. But for proper ski touring (80+% of time spent going uphill!) then I think its the best option.

Though I will agree with you that the new Fritschi Viper looks it might be good (though people also thought that about G3 oynx).

Here is the classic video of Eric Hjorleifson doing some gentle meadow skipping on his dynafits. Only small drops in case they pre-release ;-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYvM6j56IBk
Gael Force - on 10 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: But you forget when you go up with skis the point is to come down on skis…not break your leg or your bindings...
Dave Kerr - on 10 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

I agree with you entirely regarding anecdotal evidence (like mine) of binding reliability and understand that you are keen to re-establish credibility having failed to notice that Dynafits have a heel lift. ;-)
Haggis Trap on 10 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

^ But if I wanted a burly alpine style binding that can also tour then these days I would get a Duke / Guardian ;-)

Like I said - Dyanfit for touring / Marker for lift accessed freeride.
Fritschi is just the compromise option (ok bindings, but there are better options these days depending on your style of skiing).
richlan - on 10 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: For me the one negative of Dynafit seems to be the release, just starting out in touring and slow falls still likely to happen i think i would prefer the knowledge that the Fritschi are DIN certified so you know that the RV is consistent, allegedly......
Haggis Trap on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to richlan:


> one negative of Dynafit seems to be the release

^ Yip. Agree 100% that is the only significant disadvantage of dynafit (for ski touring).

However I would add Dynafit binding do release on both vertical and a lateral plane. However Tech bindings can't actually be DIN rated as the standard applies specifically to alpine style bindings (there seems to be a new DIN-TECH standard on its way). Also a slow twisting fall might not always release from a DIN rated binding anyways.

I am certain the next generation of tech bindings (dyan beast, fritschi viper, G3, plum) will be moving towards certified release within the next 5 years. For ski touring it the way the market has been going ever since the dyanfit patents ran out and more manufacturers started releasing boots with inserts.
Gael Force - on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Dave Kerr: Well I was only trying to give a less opinionated picture, there are pro's and cons of both, Mr Trap did not appear to be presenting that too well, although he has now changed tack significantly.
By the way you were asking about St Anton for touring, I found it to be prone to icing up really quickly after a thaw, as its low, bit like Scottish resorts can. Pisteing was poor leaving pistes like concrete, and I was skiing with somebody who couldn't ski off piste so spent a bit of time on piste. We ended up skiing in Lech and Zurs which were both much better. Either of those might be a better base for your van. Its probably about 15 years since I've been,so things may have changed.Personally I would go somewhere much higher at Easter, with a glacier access, puts the odds more in your favour of getting good snow.
Haggis Trap on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

> Mr Trap did not appear to be presenting that too well,
> although he has now changed tack significantly.

^ Perhaps you should go back and re-read all my previous posts ?
The DIN issue, and other facts, were discussed long before you got touchy about your Fritschi's ;-)
Gael Force - on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: What I objected was you taking on some sort of expert status and saying things like, "almost all dynafit pre-release is user error / bad adjustment'

How exactly would you be in a position to know that, reality is you just made that up, have you seen the bindings or spoken to all those that had the pre release?


Haggis Trap on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

I maintain that is fair comment.

Almost all dynafit pre-release's are caused by

1) wrongly adjusted heel spacing.
OR
2) letting ice build up under the toe whilst in touring mode.

Certainly it is easy & good habit to test the binding after changing modes. Doing so will virtually eliminate the chance of accidental pre-release. My experience over the past 5 years is that when used properly Dynafits are no more prone to pre-release than any other binding (plus you also have the option of locking the toe which is equivalent to DIN25).

Henry Iddon - on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Yawn
Haggis Trap on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Henry Iddon:

^ cmon : merits / disadvantage of tech bindings might be a 5 to 10 year old debate.

however there is still scope for GaelForce to get even more sand stuck in his vadge ;-)
Gael Force - on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap:
> (In reply to Gael Force)
>
> I maintain that is fair comment.
>
> Almost all dynafit pre-release's are caused by
>
> 1) wrongly adjusted heel spacing.
> OR
> 2) letting ice build up under the toe whilst in touring mode.
>
> Certainly it is easy & good habit to test the binding after changing modes. Doing so will virtually eliminate the chance of accidental pre-release. My experience over the past 5 years is that when used properly Dynafits are no more prone to pre-release than any other binding (plus you also have the option of locking the toe which is equivalent to DIN25).

So now it's just a comment your making, (with no evidence to back it up), actually its just your opinion as a punter.
Other people's opinion is that they are prone to it.
Haggis Trap on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

^ simmer down : you haven't presented any scientific evidence yourself.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Gael Force - on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: I don't pretend to be an expert.
Haggis Trap on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

^ nah : you just get wound up when someone suggests touring bindings might have moved on from 2001 ;-)

any other criticism you want to direct my way ?
TomDisomma - on 11 Nov 2013
http://www.salomon.com/uk/product/guardian-wtr-16.html

Absolute tanks, great for back country, touring and piste skiing.
meh - on 11 Nov 2013
In reply to TomDisomma:

Unless you want to ski in a boot with a rockered sole.

If you want a source for the causes of Dynafit pre-release then Lou Dawson is about as close as you'll get to a SME so go check the Wild Snow blog. FWIW my experience matches Haggis Trap's and I've been on Dynafits exclusively for six years.
Gael Force - on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to meh:
> (In reply to TomDisomma)
>
> Unless you want to ski in a boot with a rockered sole.
>
> If you want a source for the causes of Dynafit pre-release then Lou Dawson is about as close as you'll get to a SME so go check the Wild Snow blog. FWIW my experience matches Haggis Trap's and I've been on Dynafits exclusively for six years.

Here's the link to the article which is excellent, good advice on how to prevent some of the reasons Dynafit pre release. However some of the replies indicate, some people do have difficulties what ever they do. http://www.wildsnow.com/6946/tips-tech-ski-bindings/
Haggis Trap on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

I read wild snow a lot. Lou Dawson is a great blogger and considered something of a touring gear guru & geek. The first line of that article is worth highlighting : and also contradicts the misconception Dynafit bindings are not secure.

"I’m of the opinion that tech bindings (ATK, Dynafit, Plum, etc.), when cared for properly and used appropriately have little to no more propensity for accidental release than any other type of ski binding."

The simple fact is that Fritschi, or even alpine, binders can pre-release in a number of different scenario's. Most, but not all, pre-releases are caused by badly set up bindings or user error (i.e not checking you have actually clicked into them securely). For example : it is easy to click into an alpine binding at a funny angle because there is ice on the bottom of your boot and subsequently pre-release.

Of course I expect a patronising response from GaelForce stating that my opinions, comments and experience are not valid ;-)
Gael Force - on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap:My point about your posts are that they are very one sided, and at times a bit rude, don't think I am patronising and I don't think you would call me a clueless punter to my face, so don't do it on line.
I see you have changed now to most instead of all pre releases are due to user error or icing, thats the whole point, Dynafit are prone to pre release and all these checks do minimise this, but still those responding to the article above are citing examples of prerelease even when they do this.
I see you don't cut and paste in the last point of the article where Lou says that Dynafit don't suit some styles of skiers and size of skiers, i.e. those that are likely to put most pressurise the binding, large aggressive skiers, in which case the advice seems to be lock them or, change binding. As I would fit into the group being likely to have prerelease I don't want to have a binding that I have to lock out.
Having skied Fritschi for over 20 years I have never suffered with this sort of pre release, nor do I have fiddle about clearing boot holes of dirt snow or ice. So while I understand the advantage of Dynafit in terms of weight, for me the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, possibly because I climb and tour all the time, live in the mountains, I don't have trouble keeping up with people on lightweight gear, so the weight issue means less to me. It's good for my fitness anyway.
If you look at the replies to the article, it's clear this type of skier does have problems with Dynafit, see the responses…

Skian, my Dynafit work well, I am happy with the bindings. I did say that I make Dynafit work. I am a 230 lb guy who makes four different Dynafit binding models work. I am strong enough to release the bindings, and as an example I stated that I did it with Fritsches as well. I tried to say that if I ski smoothly, which I do, I have no problems.
In spite of that I can generate enough force easily on hardpack snow and wide skis to open the toes of Dynafit, so I need to lock them on hard snow- except on my narrower skis 70 waist and 80 waist. but on 88 waist, 95 waist and 106 waist, the toes open easily with my weight/strength on hardpack. And, as I said, locked, clean, proper functioning, I am able to twist out of Dunafit toes.
The release is smooth, well-engineered in my view. The Radical, I believe, was designed to prevent the opening of the toes by downward pressure.
My intent was to share my experience with big strong guys on Dynafit bindings.
Christian March 22nd, 2012 2:40 am

@Skian: The reason the dynafit prerelease get attention is that it different than other prereleases. I have skied since I was 1 1/2 and is now 40, so I have experienced unwanted releases with a portfolio of bindings. I have toured with dynafit since 2000. The other prereleases are vertical or horizontal, and is usually due to too low RW settings or a broken binding. The dynafit prerelease seem to be more of a “diagonal” release – i.e. something that is not possible on desgins where the toe only has the opportunity to slide sideways.

'I agree that the tips above will eliminate most of the prereleases – so there is no doubt Lou is helping a lot of people with it. But, on ice I still prerelease – and the RV setting does not affect it. I don’t have to ski hard. The one thing that seems to help me on ice, is to use shorter skis with more sidecut. I think the reason is that I can use modern race technique to get down without slarving/sliding. On straighter skis I have to put more force on one ski in order to bend it (i.e. more 90&#8242;ish style technique) – thus making a prerelease more likely. The other aspect might be that waist width affects the prerelease. On wide powder skis on ice, I will prerelease in walking speeds, while on narrow skis it has only happened when I have been doing SL-style turns – and even then it does not happen often.
So – when I see blueish ice (e.g. glaciers, frozen streams etc) , I now lock the toe, or head over to softer terrains where it wont be problem. "

Lastly it would appear that those most at risk of pre release are those putting most pressure on the binding, so it appears to me inexperienced skiers might also be in this category as they could put more pressure on this type of binding, and be less likely to have the knowledge to be able to check the bindings properly, but thats just my view I am no expert.
Haggis Trap on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

^ If you want a burly alpine style binding with DIN rated release then Markers (Duke / Baron / F12) or Salomon Guardians are all better than Fritschi Diamirs. Reread my previous posts for the good reasons why (more torsional rigidity and less stack height).

Either way GaelForce : you are just going round in circle's digging a hole... No one is forcing you to use Dynafit. Fritschi's are ok... and I happily skied on them for 10 years. However I find it odd that someone with such limited practical experience and knowledge of dynafit bindings is so opinionated about their perceived disadvantages
richlan - on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: There is only one way to sort this out, as Harry Hill might say, Fritschi or Dynafit, FIIIIGGGHHHTTTT !!

Seriously though, horses for courses......
Haggis Trap on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to richlan:

^ well in a race over 1000m vertical I know where the smart bets would be ;-)

richlan - on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: Yeah, no brainer Fritschi ;-)
Gael Force - on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: Well, Doug, this thread has certainly improved my knowledge of Dynafit problem issues and I am looking for a second pair of wider skis for powder days as I'll be living 100 m from a piste :), so I think anything but Dynafit, and that's after a careful consideration of the pro's and cons of this thread.
Can I just say your use of the terms binders and groomers is really annoying, if your American, and not English, do accept my apologies.
Haggis Trap on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to Gael Force:

Fairly amused by yer assumption I must be either a yank or english.
Try further north!

Have a fun season - I am jealous.
Hopefully I will get to do another full winter someday.
You will see plenty dyna-fiddles over in the alps ;-)

Doug.

p.s a quick search tells me I didn't actually use the word "groomer" once.
happy to correct you, yet again, with the FACTS :-)
Gael Force - on 12 Nov 2013
In reply to Haggis Trap: Right I've got to stop posting on here, trying to finish a kitchen extension before I go to the Alps. Have a good season…maybe see you in the Coe if there's still snow in April when I'm back.
Somebody told me you were English, so apologies if your a fellow Scot.

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