/ Edale Moor closed for Grouse shooting
The Public Rights of Way remain open (pretty much just the Pennine Way I think.
I can't remember all the details, and I can't find any further info to link too, but it would have been nice to know before I got there - thanks Mr National Park!!
I thought the mass trespass and the formation of the National Parks was to stop all this sort of nonsense?!
There is very little info on the ground about the closures and certainly no advance warning. It seems very easy for people to wander into the prohibited area without being aware. I believe a D of E group did this on 6th Sept because they set off from Edale before a sign was put up on the path. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me.
In the deep groughs on Kinder and Bleaklow you often come across the rotted boles of serious trees. I though that the common guilty party of this was the English kings around the Henrys depleting the forests to make warships for their navies etc.
What I have against grouse shooting and fox hunting is that they are a blood sport, like we are all supposed to be civilised out of now. Still I guess savages can continue to exist among the richest as well as the poorest of our civilisation.
I don't really see the problem. They get eaten. Is it worse than buying a farmed steak. I expect the grouse have better lives on the whole...
A bigger debate from an ecological point of view is the sustainability of moor management for grouse which benefits relatively few (but rare/ important) bird species at the expense of a more diverse habitat, but that is a whole other thread
> I don't really see the problem. They get eaten. Is it worse than buying a farmed steak. I expect the grouse have better lives on the whole...
I'm not that sure about the philosophical argument here. But we are unfortunately omnivores, and healthier if we eat meat as well as vegetables (what did vegetables ever do to deserve us eating them as a matter of course) so my humanistic inclination is that animals farmed for eating in a good healthy life is the way to go. What I hate about bloodsports is that it is the killing that is the attraction, not the necessity to eat it to live.
I'm quite happy that most game doesn't get eaten by the people that shoot it. It means that I can buy it cheap from my local butcher.
I'd rather he enjoyed it than not. Do you only eat meat that has been slaughtered by people who hate their jobs?
I'm not against the shooting so much as the folly of choosing that busy area and not providing advance publicity.
I also question the risk assessment by the organisers re accidentally shooting members of the public.
Now I think about it - if its possible to get areas closed for shooting, then why not MTB, zorbing, green laneing, BBQ's, hen nights etc etc?
Or it's actually a very natural hunter-killer response honed through tens of thousands of years of physical and cultural evolution.
The people who affect what a massive percentage of the countryside that we climb in looks like are gamekeepers and farmers.
These people, and others involved in "blood sports", would almost certainly tell you that the joy they get is not from the actual act of "killing animals".
You may not understand this if you have only ever seen the countryside from the point of view of a climber, walker, etc, and I can understand that. It doesn't mean that they are saveges just because you may not understand them.
If you were to remove all "blood sports" from the UK countryside, it would have a lot less people looking after it with passion and true understanding, and would probably end up getting built on, who knows?!
Wouldn't be so great if you had to walk through a housing estate to get to the crag....I'd rather walk through a well managed grouse moor personally.
We certainly thrive when we eat meat. Much of the land that hosts pastoral farming (and for that matter grouse), is also able to sustain diverse wildlife.
Arable farming pushes the killing to where it can't be seen but it is there all the same, and simply competes with life at the base of the food chain. A cropped field is an industrial landscape - largely devoid of wildlife, monocropped, and chemically managed to keep it that way.
We can nurture our carrots and our cows and chickens for our own selfish needs, but only if we nurture them too. What I am against is the need to get pleasure out of hunting and killing as in fox hunting and grouse shooting for the glory of THE KILL..
> Now I think about it - if its possible to get areas closed for shooting, then why not MTB, zorbing, green laneing, BBQ's, hen nights etc etc?
Because none of the activities you mention are likely to kill other people. Unless the BBQ sets fire to the bracken...
Mind I was hit by shot last weekend on the Fife Coast Path.
Give it a rest will you, nobody wants to listen to completely one sided biased drivel.
Al, your ideas are warped. I honestly cannot understand how you can say hunting for food is less preferable than mass farm production!?
I'm not making a serious claim that that is what will happen, am I, I'm just trying to highlight that a vast majority of the beautiful rolling landscapes that we drive, walk, run, cycle through look the way they do because of farmers, gamekeepers, forestry commission etc. The same people who also participate in these much hated "blood sports", "animal murder" etc....for good reason.
People who wander into the countryside every now and then for their past-times don't necessarily understand how the above mentioned countyrside works, and it's from this category that you get a lot of the anti blood sport talk.
You gotta see it from all angles....how can people have such one sided 'my way or no way' opinions on stuff.
Shooting plays a part, but healthy well vegetated moors are massively important for providing clean drinking water. Unitied Utilities have contributed millions into regenerating them, so they don't have to filter loads of peat/crap from the water they pump to folk in Manchester.
Isnt the subject Grouse and other driven shooting. So pretty much mass farm production.
The relevance of this to grouse shooting is?
I agree with Al here, there is a difference between how an animal dies. For example deriving pleasure from getting your own meal by stalking your prey and killing it then preparing it but not enjoying the actual killing is different from blasting at stupid birds with clipped wings who can't get away. Totally different mentality, I understand the former but not the latter. Just like I think it's OK to fish if you eat what you catch, but fishing for sports sake is wrong, even if fish can't feel pain (no idea if that is true or not) you wouldn't like it if someone gave you a local anaesthetic in the face, stuck a hook in and pulled you about. It's the mentality of getting enjoyment from violence towards an animal that, as Al says, is wrong, not the act of killing an animal for food even if that food brings you pleasure.
The grouse ends up in somebody's pot, even if not the gun's. What's the problem with being born and bred on the moor, and then getting shot? Hardly intensive farming a la boxed pigs and chickens (there's a reason I either shoot what I eat, or get it from my local butcher).
What about all the vegetables lives you ended you sick bastard. What about all those animals who die from the farming and incesticides? The massive land use and end to whole eco systems? Can't you see the link between that and your pleasure of eating vegetables?
But 'eating meat' can be premised on lands which sustain MUCH, MUCH more wildlife than 'veg' crops, and without the use of chemical fertiliser, herbicides and pesticides (all of which leach off in to the watercourse and cause death to wildlife).
> Al, your ideas are warped. I honestly cannot understand how you can say hunting for food is less preferable than mass farm production!?
I never said that, I said hunting for pleasure, the sheer blood lust, is less humanitarian than well cared for and farmed animals.
There are however blanket closures on land that had access agreements in place before CRoW - those prior agreements take priority. I've no idea if that is the case in Edale, but it certainly is on Barden Moor.
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