UKC

Hey,

My climbing partner has just set his eyes on this route, and in a fit of overenthusiasm I've agreed to come with him. Have been looking into it briefly online (will lay my hands on a guidebook soon, but on a route where so much of the gear is in a gradual state of decay I thought some more recent beta would be handy), and I've got a few questions - anyone who has climbed it recently, your input would be much appreciated.

Belays at the top of the first pitch - I've heard that the original belay under the roof is rotten, and that its best to belay off the Directissima chains - anyone got any views? Also, is either belay on a ledge, or shall I kit myself out for a long belay stint standing in my etriers?


The roof itself - I've heard from some people its all on fixed gear, but opinions have varied as to whether there are sports bolts at intervals (some people have said there are, some people have said that Mandela follows a different line to the aid route?) or not?

Also, if any of the fixed gear blows, if that it unless you have a bolt kit or pegs, or could trad gear go in anywhere? I'd prefer to avoid pegging if it is actually a free line (although if the free line goes elsewhere I assume there will be no problems with pegging?).....


The belay above the roof - I've been told its also in rotten condition - true or false? If its in rotten condition, what is the pitch above like - hard/easy, loose/solid, what? If that belay is okay, I'd probably abseil down to the ground from there if 50m ropes would reach?


Any other words of advice or wisdom gratefully recieved. And as for clean aid practise on peak grit, to get back into the swing of it, anyone suggest anywhere better than millstone?

Thanks

AJM

In reply to AJM:
Having watched these two trying to aid their way around Hound Tor last summer, I am half tempted to go and watch for a laugh. Therefore if anyone wants to lend me a video camera, I would be very grateful.

P.S. It will need a tape at least 48 hours long

In reply to SidH:

Such a useful contribution Simon.

Besides, we already have a volunteer cameraman anyway.............. and I'm afraid we have already agreed a deal with regards to copyright, and we'd have to take legal proceedings against the makers of any unauthorised imitations..................... look out for the video hitting the shops in the next 12 months..............

AJM

In reply to AJM:



Who? Is he taking a tent with him?

In reply to SidH: providing you climb the first pitch free of course, this has been a free route since 1975, as Mandella has not been repeated, then providing you dont ruin any of the 'free' holds on the roof I think its generally accepted that you can still aid this pitch.

In reply to Al Evans: Mandella has beenrepeated hasn't it - can't remember who now - probably steve mclure?

In reply to köln: Ste Mac, Kristian Clemnow (sp) and possibly Tony Mitchell?

In reply to Al Evans: People quite often aid the first pitch on nuts, al - fairly common winter pastime as i understand it. No harm in it - might be a bit more worrying when Bob takes the bolts out.

In reply to andy: But why, its only E3 5c for gods sake, in fact we gave it HVS originally! Why should people think its ok to aid it?

In reply to Al Evans:

Wet Dales winter days, where the thought of free climbing a polished E3 is lost. Adds to the experience 2 piches of aid climbing as it was first done. If you free climb the 1st pitch should you then only free climb the 2nd as it now goes free?

In reply to Al Evans:

Well, if its sopping wet and raining everywhere, it might appeal more than the wall. Its also the only way to get up to aid the roof unless you can climb F6c, which is the Directissima grade now that its been bolted.

But thats not what the thread is meant to be about.........

AJM

In reply to AJM:
And as for clean aid practise on peak grit, to get back into the swing of it, anyone suggest anywhere better than millstone?

Would try Dove Holes and Thors Cave, both would be good for Kilnsey Main Overhang and closer to the ground - if thats good! Lots of fixed gear.
Wilton Quarry is on a par with Millstone but not as busy. Running Hill Pits and Upperwood Quarry has some entertaining practice routes.

In reply to craig h:

Hollywood Bowl at Giggleswick North

Bob

In reply to Bob:

Has it been retrobolted yet, had 8mm? bolts in about 10 years ago.
The Bat at Dove holes I heard had been retro bolted which would take a bit of the fun out. The eyes of the pegs which had rotten away to leave a C shape always inspired me to thrash about.

In reply to craig h:

Wasn't last year. Some long gaps between old Troll 8mm bolts.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

Can see a wet weekend in the Dales soon. I know its progression aid routes freed, but there are not as many wet day alternatives as they get retrobolted if you enjoy a bit of aid practice.
Personal point of view is if its bolt to bolt its just like work but with a better view, usually not however on the day - Dales mist.
I like a bit of the unknown instead of a shiney stainless staple bolt every few foot.

In reply to craig h:

I spent several hours watching a couple of mates aid Hollywood Bowl - I would have joined them but they were taking long enough as it was. There were some definite long moves that were only overcome with the aid of a fallen branch being passed up!

Bob

In reply to Bob:

Will pack a tent pole and some insulation tape, That should bypass the long moves. Getting keen to do it again.
Cheers

In reply to craig h: This is pathetic crap, why not re-peg Black Hawk Bastion, Scoop Wall, Pickpocket, Darius, Kink, Dies Eyries ? Big Plum , well whatever you want to name, purely on the grounds that the conditions were not perfect, its so so so so much going backwards, how can any modern climber countenance this?

In reply to Al Evans:
so are you saying that no-one should ever try to aid the Main Overhang again?
or is it OK to just use the bolts that are in situ for doing the route free?
I can understand your reluctance to use pegs. I'm not suggesting that. But what if you use nuts and the situ bolts?
Geoff.

In reply to Al Evans:

I'm with you Al - if it's been freed then don't aid the f*cker.

In reply to Al Evans: No-one's "re-pegging" anything. A few people, on a wet day, aid their way up a pitch on nut and the existing fixed gear, then have good old dangle about under the roof getting scared.

It's called "having a laugh", Al - something that many 'modern climbers' appear to have forgotten about. Alternative activities would include sitting in the caff being rude about people from Sheffield, building a fire and pretending to be apaches or seeing who looks most like a girl when throwing stones left handed,

I suspect that many 'modern climbers' can be seen employing similar techniques frigging about on routes on most days, wet or not - only you call it 'working' it.

In reply to andy: lol! i like the list of alternative wet weather activities, sounds about right!

In reply to andy: Firstly, I am not a 'modern climber' I actually was on the first ascent of the first pitch way back in 1975, started climbing in 1960.
Secondly I believe there are standards, 'having a laugh' is an excuse for many abuses in life, some would consider rape 'having a laugh' it depends where you draw your boundaries.
As climbers we have a duty to the history of our sport, we've moved on, stuff that was fair game on aid just isnt anymore, you could put your same argument to London Wall, BUT if you are not good enough just dont do it!

In reply to Al Evans: Sorry, that should have said 'FREE' ascent in 1975.

In reply to Al Evans: "'having a laugh' is an excuse for many abuses in life, some would consider rape 'having a laugh'"

Oh ffs, Al - listen to yourself - pulling on the gear on the Directissima is not "abuse", it's harmless fun on a wet day, and to mention rape in the same sentence is just plain stupid.

"There are standards" - who are you? My Gran?

I know exactly who you are, and how long you've been climbing - which is why I'm surprised at you being so po-faced about this. It has absolutely no parallel with re-pegging routes - it has more in common with the low level aid traverses we used to do to practice putting nuts in (no doubt that will also offend your sensibilities - well really, really sorry). It's something to do on a miserable wet day that doesn't damage the rock, doesn't place/damage any fixed gear and gets you out in the fresh air.

In reply to Al Evans:

Still back to its not ok to aid the Directissima as its only E3, But its ok to aid the Main overhang which is free at E8/F8b.
For many climers who are trying the main overhang for a bit of fun on a wet day or ticking the classic Hard Rock routes it might as well be E8. Its best done on a wet day so you don't get in the way of sports climbers warming up on the route.
The Directissima can be aided in full on nuts and cams, the bolts are nice to stop your sphincter twitching too much as you eye up the main overhang above.
So if You can't climb pollished E3 in the wet what do you suggest, work on the red point, frig it bolt to bolt or abseil in from the top of the crag and reverse aid the main overhang, finishing by abseiling from the Directissima abseil station?

In reply to andy:

One of the tv series, probably Pennine Rock had a sequence of Bob Dearman teacing Bomington proper aid climbing on bolts, probably on Mecca long after it had been freed. So, if Bob takes the bolts out of the bottom pitch of Diretissima peopl will just start pegging it again for practice on wet days in winter, like we did in the 50s and 60s.

I think Al is getting a bit silly about this as well, as you say it is having fun instead of sitting in the cafe or not getting out at all. There are not many places in Yorkshire you are allowed to use aid, all the selfish free climbers climb the old routes after the peggers have removed most of the loose stuff and then say piss off, it's a free route now.

What is it about them that they can do routes with bolts and call them free anyway, it is cheating just as much as putting a peg in for protection. I doubt Mark Leach would have done Mandela with all the tat that we used on the roof for aid. Too risky.

In reply to craig h: I dont understand the problem? Why do you want to do a route you cant do? There must be nearly a million routes in the UK that you can do, It would be fun to do Sentinel Crack at Chatsworth on aid on friends, but what is the point? You could go and re-peg Scoop Wall at Stoney, but what would be the point? either you are proper climbers who accept the ethics, or you are like the 'abseiling' clubs in the USA who are despised even in the libetrarian society that is the USA/ I am at a complete loss to understand your logic if you are 'real' climbers!

In reply to Al Evans:

What about aided ascents of The Nose, El Cap?

In reply to Al Evans: Two points, Al - I can do directissima free. When it's dry. I can't do it when it's pissing with water, which is the sort of day I might want to go and have a dangle around on the Main Ovehang. So - as Craig says - how do I get up there to do it? Teleport? Or perhaps call on the services of a Truly Great (and Ethical) Climber like yourself to drag me up it.

And secondly - I haven't done it on aid, never will - don't enjoy it - I'm more your fires and stone throwing type of guy.

In reply to EarlyBird: And what about using a rope on routes that have been soloed? Or a sneaky pull on a bolt to get past a stopper move on a route (that stonking pinnacle in Sardinia rings a bell - one desperate move - is that to be denied to me because Ethical Al and his Amazing Standards says so?).

In reply to andy:

I think the best way is to do the Directissima on a dry day and leave an insitu rope on the belay point. This would allow you to jug up to the belay on the wet days to do the main overhang.
I don't know how many people do it each year, probably not that many, so there wouldn't be too many insitu ropes left by parties wanting an alternative to the wall, pub, cafe etc on the many wet days we get in Britian.

In reply to andy: Hey guys, I'm not that ethical when needs must, what I want is to start out being ethical, the idea of deliberately starting out to cheat is what worries me?
Can you not see the difference, if you fail and need to cheat to get you there is totally different to starting out intending to cheat! No?
OK we live on a different planet, I guess I'm not getting through to you, I think there are basic ethics in climbing, they shouldnt compromise life, and they shouldnt compromise basic climbing ethics, but without them the sport is meaningless as anything other than a pastime like sport fishing, darts or golf, I like to think its more than that. You can do what you want, its your choice!

In reply to Al Evans: It's not climbable on a pissing wet day, Al - no-one's suggesting that people should waltz up there in June and aid it.

To quote a well known (and highly experienced) climber of these parts: "Can you not see the difference?"

In reply to Al Evans:

Al. You stated above that "it would be fun to climb Sentinel Crack on friends, but what's the point?" that IS the point. We don't all set out intending to carry the torch of ethical purity every time we set out to climb, that's usually just the accidental by product of climbing in the trad. style, for fun.

...oh, and climbing is as meaningless as as any other pastime you old romantic, you.

In reply to Al Evans:

I think we shall have to agree to disagree. Have climbed the Direcrissima free before and after it was bolted and as a means to get to the main overhang pre-bolts and when bolted.
The latter 2 being on wet days. On both occasions I left the ground knowing I would probably use aid at some point to bypass wet sections on the route, for speed as much as possible was free climbed but aid was used - hense classed as aid climbing. If trying a VS on limestone on those days I suspect I would have hung off a bit of kit at some point even if it was just to warm the hands.
I don't think it was cheating, it was adjusting my own ethics in the knowledge that the route would not go free that day, It is unfortunate that there is no other way of reaching the main overhang.
Carnage Left Hand now goes free but I'm sure most people who do it start off in the knowledge they will pull on the peg.

In reply to craig h: CLH but why? surely they should go up there intending to have a go at free-ing it, I certainly did (but failed). Do people still aid Cave Route? or Cave Route Left Hand? If so why? If not, why not?
Has anyone done Raven Tor Girdle since it became Cream Team Special?

In reply to Al Evans:

Pasted from Rockfax

5b (6b free), 20m. Move right and use the peg and a sling to pull through the roof. Climb the wall to a break then step right and move up to the famous ledge. Overcome this to gain another break then swing right to finish up a small groove.

The 6b free bit might be the problem for an E1 leader. The route is graded for a quick pull on the peg both in the Yorkshire Limestone guide and Rockfax.
Traditional intead of ethical?

In reply to craig h: I'm still not sure about this, you could set out to do say; Bufoon, or Black Hawk Bastion or indeed most hard routes on grit and a determined pull on aid would make them 3 grades easier. I know we think our sport is anarchaic, but actually it isnt, for all sorts of reasons, too many to go into now but which most 'real' climbers understand instinctiveley. I'm finding this thread very stressful because I thought we had resolved this argument 20 years ago. SAD

In reply to Al Evans:

Don't get too stressed, its only climbing. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.
Just bitter and twisted as my wife is in the Costa Blanca and I'm at home feeling like shit and looking after the kids.

In reply to craig h: Just to make you even more even more pissed off, its 22 degrees here and clear blue sky at the moment

In reply to Al Evans: I think you're massively missing the point we're trying to make, Al - this is a specific route that gives access to the main overhang. People (not me) somtimes aid up it in woolly jumpers and trainers to allow them to dangle around on the main roof. I'd say Hollywod Bowl has similar status as a now free aid route that people are going to g and have a dangle on now and again

This is nothing to do with a retrograde step back to the 60s where 'anything goes' - it's a bunch of lads (most of whom climb significantly harde than F6c, btw) having a crack on a wet day - to my mind significantly more in tune with the reasons I go climbing than spending a Sunday in a climbing wall.

In reply to Al Evans:


Lets see if we can sort this out.

I went to Kilnsey in about 1959, 15 steel karabiners and about 20 assorted pegs. It was a wet November day and water was dripping everywhere.
While my partner was getting his boots on I soloed up past the overhang and and another few feet to get warmed up.

When I got all the gear on I had to use three pegs to get to where I had soloed to, that old gear weighed a lot, along with the hammer and three*three rung etriers etc.

After getting to the roof soaking wet my partner thought it was too frightening for him, he had only done about four aid routes on grit previously. I retreated, removing the gear as I went.

Now, where would you go on a wet day, all those complaints about the grit being greasy the other day made me laugh as I have only seen half the routes I have done on Dovestones and some other routes in Chew valley due to doing them in thick mist or driving rain.

My main memory of Ron Moseley was nearly seeing him on Mississippi Variant with the rope curving away in the wind and the rest of the R+I shouting up to him where to go through thick driving rain. Greasy, it was soaked but you can still climb on wet rock if you are good enough and can stand the water runnign down your arms. Well you know that and have done the same, but you are not comparing like with like when you say do not aid up wet limestone.

In reply to sutty: Hmmmmm! Still not sure about this, I think there must still be (bits) of rock in the UK that have not been climbed yet, I think (only think) it must be preferable to be creative enough to do them as modern aid routes. When they are free'd they become free routes and are left alone by the aid climbers, there is still much scope in the scottish islands, or even the north yorkshire coast etc, or go to Europe, its not far if you want to peg climb.

In reply to Al Evans:

Al, FFS. Europe for a wet Sunday?

In reply to Al Evans:

Kilnsey Main Overhang is a bit of a special case, tho' isn't it? The fact that a few "Hard Rock" tickers are going to climb it on aid hardly signals a catastophic decline in ethical standards.

In reply to sutty: I take your point Sutty, but remember, we didnt ALWAYS go climbing aid routes on wet Sundays, sometimes we went out and climbed things like The File, or whatever. Maybe Kilnsey Main IS a special case? I would like to get Mr Leach's point of view on it though! After all it was 6 years ago since he did it, surely we have progessed since then?

In reply to Al Evans: Sorry, I think that should have said 16 years ago!

In reply to Al Evans:

I'm getting quite confused with this thread. You keep mouthing off about pegging, when that isn't the issue here. As far as I can see someone aiding a route using insitu bolts and otherwise clean gear will do no more damage than someone frigging about trying to free it. By your reasoning the only place people are allowed to practise aid climbing is on previously unclimbed pieces of rock.

From my point of view setting out on a wet weekend with an idea for something to challenge yourself seems very much in the climbing spirit. It's doing no harm to anyone and hardly represents a backward step in climbing ethics.

Wil T

In reply to katonka:

What's the difference between aid climbers and bolt climbers?


















Aid climbers don't worry about the red-point

Bob

In reply to katonka: I dont think I'm 'mouthing off' about anything, I'm posing questions for people to deal with, I want people to THINK, if you consider what you are doing, and it doesnt damage the rock, I suppose its ok. Whether I agree with it or not is irrelevent.
WE are in an anarchistic sport, but it has values that I hold dear to, all I'm asking you to do is 'think what you are doing'. Oh for gods sake, if you dont understand the purity of our sport by now, then you never will. Its like you cant be an anarchist if you dont believe in humanist principles then the system cant possibly work. Sorry if this is intellectually beyond you, and thats not meant to be insulting, merely that you have not got to the stage of needing to think about it. If you pack climbing in sooner rather than later, you wont need to. I think I give up!

In reply to Bob: Did you mean bolt climbers or sport climbers? You need to learn that leaving a big gap before the "punchline" will not make it any funnier.
I fear you are not suited for a career in comedy.

BTW:
Was it you who smashed the bolts on The Directissima?

In reply to Al Evans:

I agree with Al. The fact is, climbing has evolved and is evolving and in so doing ethics change, necessarily so. The pitch up to the roof is nowhere near hard (not even hatrd enough to be a warm up) by today's standards and should be climbed free or not at all; it's possible in the wet, I've done it. Admittedly it won't be possible all the time but so what? Surely the cliff is allowed to win sometimes?

And extend your argument to a wider case: if you aid one free route, why not another? And if that aid ascent requires an additional bolt, or peg, then so what? Use it, is the obvious extension. Take Profit...aid that, why not? It would be hard when wet (way harder than Directissima...). But what if in so doing you ruin the nut placement? Then is it just a bit of fun? No.

Climbing is wonderful because there IS so much variety. Directissimma is now a FREE climb and should only be climbed that way, but there are plenty of other climbs which can still be aided (and even, shock horror, new aid climbs - think of that!). There are also thousands of free climbs which CAN be done in the wet - in the mountains, on grit, etc, etc. Being denied access to one climb in Yorkshire (FFS!) does not mean you can't go out and have fun - there are thousands of things to do. Go do one of them.