UKC

Just reading The Complete Guide To Rope Techniques, and it says that the 'tape knot' is fine in tape or rope. Which made me wonder why everyone seems to use a double fisherman's instead, a tape knot seems a bit neater and uses less rope.

In reply to Mat J:
Slap me if Im wrong, but... is it not just an overhand?

In reply to Anonymous: yes, but rethreaded rather than the way an overhand would be used to join 2 ropes for an abseil.

In reply to Mat J:

I understand the rethreaded bit, but by "overhand" joining two ropes for abseil do you mean reef?

In reply to jim robertson: No, in a tape knot the ropes point in opposite directions, when you join ropes to abseil they point in the same direction, 2 tails on one side of the knot.

Anyway, does anyone know why the double fisherman's is so much more used for making slings, tying hexes etc. than the tape knot.

In reply to Mat J:
It's tidier...

In reply to Mat J:

Easier to untie.

In reply to Mat J: doesn't/can't slip

In reply to Mat J:


The tape knot in cord does tend to undo, although if you tie it and put a lot of weight on it then tape the ends, its stable.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:


Apart from when time comes to replace the sling or rope, and you can cut it off, why would you want to have easy to untie knots on hexs etc ?

Modern trend seems to be for these things to be bought with stitched slings.

In reply to Stuart Robinson:


Aye, but the slings have a limited life. Sooner or later you'll want to replace them.

James

In reply to Mat J:

That technique leaves you with a knot which is dreadful to take apart, and when retreating off a winter route not the most ideal. The reef is my chosen knot, bombproof and literally falls apart. (when required I hasten to add!)

In reply to jim robertson:
An overhand (or double overhand) is no particularly hard to take apart in my experience, even when abseiled off.

In reply to jim robertson:
I'd say a reef knot is very far from being bombproof. It's very unstable unless kept under tension.

In reply to mike swann:


Really? A bit keen on your use of "very" I think. Your rope would snap before the knot gives way, and with a half hitch on each tail the instability is negligible. IMHO

In reply to jim robertson:

I used the word "very" for emphasis.

If a reef knot is kept under constant tension it's ok. If the tension is applied and removed it's extremely unstable. Note, unstable, not weak.


A half hitch either side will do damn all for stability. Do you mean an overhand?

In reply to mike swann:


What do you mean by unstable? I read it as the knot not retaining its uniformity in terms of loadable ability.

It retains the stability of the knot by keeping the knots form. I mean a reef knot!

In reply to jim robertson:

I use the term unstable to mean ability to retain form or shape and function. A reef knot, unless kept under constant tension, can lose it's form and become insecure.


A half hitch is also unstable on its own. Do you mean the same knot you would use as a stopper when you tie in? That would be an overhand (or double overhand).

In reply to Mat J: I belive that the "tape knot" is also known as the "water knot" or more amusingly the "ring bend".

In reply to Mat J:
For tying two ropes together for abbing purposes, I use a reef knot with the tails tied in fishermans knots. Easy to dismantle and appears stable. Any thoughts/comments?

ok, this thread's gone off at a complete tangent. Lol.

DaveN:- glad it wasn't just me that thought 'ring bend' was mildly amusing.

jim robertson - using a reef knot with half hitches sounds dodgy to me, a fisherman's knot in the tails of a reef knot would be more secure I think.

It seems there isn't a particular reason for the water knot not being used much in rope apart from it might creep a bit if not tightened well enough.

In reply to grahamt:

Perfectly safe but a bit OTT.

In reply to GrahamD:

Not really OTT if you want a secure knot but ease of undoing. I occasionally use that set-up (usually I use the overhand) if my partner simply will not accept the overhand as a means of tying the ropes together. Its disadvantages are that the whole thing is very bulky and that the reef knot is not particularly good for tying ropes of different diameters together.

Bob

In reply to Mat J: A threaded 'figure of eight' used to do it for me, I didn't ever notice slippage etc. (I now show off with a double fisherman's - which can be a swine to unravel. It feels nice and safe though.

In reply to Bob:

I only said a "bit OTT" ! I know what you mean about partners not believing in the overhand knot, though.

In reply to grahamt:

Yeah its fine...

Used it loads, good as long as it doesnt get caught when you pull it through, easy to untie.

Overhand does the job too...

In reply to grahamt:

Double fishermans? Or single?

In reply to jim robertson:


i strongly disagree, the reef will come apart if its under pressure as opposed to tension. this happens easier than you might think, the bmc booklet on knots reccoments tidying up the loose ends with a single fishermans at both ends.

i would rather just do the double fishermans twice (prussic) rather than tie a reef, then have to tie two fishermans on each end

still, each to their own.

In reply to James: IMNSHO

Tape knot - why would you bother?
Reef knot - crap for abing, comes undone.
Reef + Fishermans - too much hassle
Fishermans - too much hassle
Double figure of 8 - fine.. but
Overhand (with adequate tails) has a flat internal radius which allows it to move around objects when you pull the ab rope down. It is therefore a superior way of joining 2 (equal diameter)ropes for abbing. Also has the advantage of being the simplest, so you are less likly to screw it up.

LD

I've used it when joining 8.4mm x 11mm ropes for abbing

I make sure the knot is perfectly formed and not twisted, and put the fatter rope on the outside (towards the tails) so the thinner one would have to roll over this to come undone.

Any thoughts?

In reply to gavin g: I think that if the knot rolls (which they do in equal diameter ropes at approx 10kN) the two different diameter ropes will roll by different amounts, creating a mess which may or may not hold. When the rethreaded overhand know rolls in equal diameter ropes, the result is the same knot again but tighter.

In reply to Mat J:

also important when at the top...

clip the belay karab in to the loop of rope you tied in with. not just the harness belay loop.

In reply to James:
Why might that be? I

In reply to Lurking Dave:



...and the knot naturally rides on top when the rope is being pulled making it less prone to catching. Apparently in the States they call it the European death knot.

In reply to James:


In the grand scheme of things, this is hardly up there - in fact its debateable whether it is neccesary at all.

In reply to Shaun:

I think that is the fig 8 used in the same way, which doesn't self tighten in the same way as an overhand.

In reply to Shaun:

The EDK refers to the figure of 8 when used to tie two ropes together. Or rather it refers to the knot used in some fatal abseiling accidents where the ropes became untied. It was assumed that the knot used was the overhand as this was becoming well known at the time but it turns out that the knot being used was actually an fo8.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

That is right. The fo8 has a tendancy to roll off the end by repeatedly inverting when the two strands are pulled apart. Best demonstrated with very smooth rope.

See: http://www.ozultimate.com/canyoning/knots/one-sided_overhand/

In reply to Bob:

Thanks Bob - thats interesting. I wondered why they called it the EDK when it is such a widely used and safe knot.