UKC

I know how to do it, I just don't know how to make myself do it! every time I go for the leap my feet stay firmly in place, and I have no control over this! I have a(probably irational) fear that if I actually jump I will smack head first into the rock.

Not being able to dyno is my weakness, so any advice or help would be appreciated.
Cheers!

In reply to Layla:

Probably it's an engram thing. Once you've made that leap of faith the 1st time, your body will remember how to do it and you'll find it a lot easier the next time. Quite a few climbing moves are like that; it feels like you just can't make yourself do it but, once you have, it starts to feel quite easy (kind of). Neural pathways etc.

Maybe, if you're bouldering, get someone to physically support/spot you whilst doing a controlled dyno. There are different types of dynanmic move you can try; a sort of controlled upwards "slide" is probably your best bet rather than a two handed leap!

In reply to Layla: i found leaping a bit up before actually going for it helps.

In reply to JonC:
so keep trying till I get it?
I've always got a spotter when I try dynoing, and controlled upward slides (if I'm thinking of the same thing you are) I can do. But I want to be able to do two-handed leaps, they look so much fun, that is, if you actually make the hold you're aiming for!

thanks for the tips though.

In reply to Layla:
Mind your face on the rock, that hurts.

In reply to Layla:
i'm with you on this one.
i have this silly fear of my arms not being able to take the sudden force of holding my body and popping out at the sockets, either elbow or shoulder

In reply to Layla:

I suck at dynoing as well! It took me ages to learn and i'm still pretty poor at it

There's an article on 8a.nu :

http://www.8a.nu

then click on Articles

Under training there is an article titled DYNOING

There's some reasonable information but a lot of it is timing, pulling yourself in and pushing up through your legs, which you'll only get through practice. You'll get there in the end!

J.

In reply to Layla:

5 steps to dynoing

1. jump around a bit on the floor, get your legs going. see how high you can jump, just mess around.
2. find some thing like a low wall, step, bench etc. Stand 1 pace in front of it. lean forward with one foot you you land on the edge of the object with that foot. then step back and do it again, only quicker. then do it and when you hit the object jump back a bit off your leading leg. step onto it and once you toch it use it to push you back - a bit like it was a springboard.
3. now take a few steps at the object and do the same, jump back/up. build up toa short run-up, and use your legs to get as much push as possible off the object.
4. now go into a climbing wall, find a big jug at head height and some big fotholds, easy angle. grab the jug with both hands swing about a bit, with your arms straight like a pendulum, then jump off, but as you jump off see how far you can jump in the air when you jump off (get a spotter). Get a swing going, and do it a few times. don't pull with your arms, think about swinging and drive the movement from your legs.
5. now when you jump off, find a hold just out of reach and try and tag it as you jump up/off. Then do the same and try and grab a jug just out of reach. now you're dynoing.

remember it comes from the legs. get a feeling for jumping around stuff, relax, run around.

In reply to Layla:


Try doing things statically - much more useful in ageneral climbing sense. Dynoing much overated IMO

In reply to Yorkspud: Static ability is of no use when trying a dyno.

In reply to Layla:

I taught a lad at boulder uk how to dyno and this is how.

1 - find your 2 holds. If you can find one of those big space disk/planet shape holds in the right direction there ideal for learning or any big jug and a big hold 3/4ft beneath it
2 - hold bottom hold and drop down at the knees. stand up fast and pull in a bit. don't worry about letting go yet.
3 - do the same again but actually jump backwards onto a mat (i'm talking about indoor bouldering wall here). Don't worry about hitting anything just getting the knack of pushing with your feet
4 - pull in more until you can touch the wall on the way up. See how far you can go and start to work on accuracy. As your bringing your angle in slowly you've got very little risk of hitting your head (but check the landing first)
5 - when you've got yourself inline with the hold start to try and reach it to touch it. You need to be very careful to get the accuracy to stop yourself getting injured. Double handed dynos are less annoying as you'll end up still holding the bottom hold if you go one handed.
6 - once you've got the accuracy start to work on gripping it on the way past and catching yourself. This is the bit where you can get injured and rip muscles/tendons so be careful.

The main trick to getting the accuracy is to not swing about too much before going for it. Pull on, look at the hold, look down and coruch and go. If you look too much you'll confuse yourself and your brain wont know what signals to send to your muscles. Get it right first time and everytime you miss you'll learn which means you'll improve with each attempt instead of getting frustrated at moving backwards with each attempt. Just stop when your tired or it'll hurt

Pete

In reply to cubanallstar:
...

I can second that - definitely timing and springy legs. I also think balance and aim are important - you have to imagine where your weight is going when you grab the hold, and of course you have to actually hit the hold.

I seem to be lucky - I like dynos and often find them less tiring than more technical ways of solving the problem. Strong calves definitely help, you can get quite a bit more push by sagging your heels first, then springing onto tip-toes as your legs go straight.

Maybe try some sprinter style excercises, hop/jump over small obstacles, or try "high-marking" a wall with a bit of chalk. Also deadpointing exercises might help - pick an easy route and do it one handed, try to move your hand while your weight is in the dead time between going up and falling back. Then try the route again with the other hand.

You're not alone though, loads of people will try anything to avoid having 3 or 4 limbs in the air at the same time

In reply to Layla: Watch cliffhanger again in slow motion, Sly does it with style

In reply to Layla:

As a matter of interest why do you need to two-handed dyno? Its rarely of use for anything other than the odd unusual boulder problem and its the fastest way to get injured during climbing (I notice the lack of advice on warming up in the above posts and having spotters you can trust).

In reply to Offwidth:

In that sentence you've both asked a question and answered it yourself.


Not true - for a start it puts half as much impact through each arm as catching the same dyno one-handed. Maybe you're mistaking duble dynos for campusboard plyometrics.

The fastest way to get injured is one-finger campussing on razor-blade monos 100foot above a 45degree sloping landing covered with sharp peices of slate, broken glass, rusty nails and used needles disgarded by skagheads.

>(I notice the lack of advice on warming up in the above posts and having spotters you can trust).

I would have thought they go without saying, for anyone with an ounce of common sense.

"In that sentence you've both asked a question and answered it yourself."

Really? What would someone who cant dyno at all, be doing worrying about those few unusual problems, I am puzzled?

"Not true - for a start it puts half as much impact through each arm as catching the same dyno one-handed."

Rubbish, a good powerglide (one hand still on the wall and preferably a high foot as well) retains the ability to greatly reduce shock loading, especially when your deadpointing skill levels are not fully honed. In any case many double dynos end up being landed one handed so I fail to see your distinction.

"Maybe you're mistaking duble dynos for campusboard plyometrics."

Maybe, if they involve 'duble dynos' on small holds above needles and glass etc.

"I would have thought they go without saying, for anyone with an ounce of common sense."

Like far too many peer-pressure led kids in indoor walls potentially trashing young tendons and then the young adults who should know better? (there you go I've given my concerns and predudices away now so you can be happy). Hands up how many of you warm up and stretch before a dynoing session and warm down and stretch afterwards and always remember to active rest (try to avoid consecutive days with dyno sessions)? I know some do (a mate of mine at my local wall runs advanced climbing classes for talented kids) but I'd like to see this common sense be more widespread.

In reply to Layla:
be careful, i had a friend who sliced his nose clean off on a sharp hold whilst dynoing...

most situations on real problems where a double-dyno required are ones where you need land with both hands to hang the hold, particularly is the hold is bad or slopey, or sharp. For example that one on the eagle stone (where beagle dare?). Youd me hard pressed to land that one-handed.

wanting to dyno for its old sake is reason enough to learn. Its about fun, and they may form only a fraction of the problems in the world, but dynos are generally memorable, often classic problems. No one needs to justify wanting to be able to dyno.

In reply to Layla: Anyone who was at KK last night will know just how pathetic I am when it comes to dynos....Can't seem to get the hang of them at all and I reckon a lot of it is due to confidence - I seem to have this irrational fear that a) I'm going to hit something on the way up, b) I'm going to hit something/catch something when I fall off and c) if i do reach it it'll probably pull my arms out of their sockets....silly I know, but it feels as if I'm not in control, which I don't like!

In reply to Anonymous:

"most situations on real problems where a double-dyno required are ones where you need land with both hands to hang the hold..."

However the rock cant know that can it? I think well known double dyno problems tend to have two handed landings because it suits the climber (hence its a good problem), not the rock.

"wanting to dyno for its old sake is reason enough to learn.....often classic problems. No one needs to justify wanting to be able to dyno."

I dont disagree with any of that but dynos (especially on campus boards) clearly benefit from a planned approach which gives carefully strengthened tendons. Muscle power can soon bring such problems into range and peer pressure based on the very same fun can lead to overstressing. Then there is when you miss...even good dyno climbers I know have done ankles and wrists landing awkwardly from dynos (a problem in bouldering anyway but more likely when cutting loose, especially on sideways problems where momentum causes a swing on contact where you may lose grip at an unusual angle). This request is clearly from a dynoing beginner and so I'd still say avoiding the situations which can inadvertantly lead to injury would be my most important advice as being injured is no fun at all. Also learning to static climb (high foot rockovers) or semi-dyno problems that other people full dyno is generally more useful, even for bouldering (maybe with the exception of comps).

In reply to Offwidth:


????? What has that got to do with anything.


Look I don't want to sound condecending here, but thats bollocks. you don't get into dynos by trying to climb static all the time, in fact thats the worst thing to do. Don't try and reason an approach to climbing dynos based on some theory in your head, cos the rest of us live in the real world had have done it for real and know what works. I do a lot of dynos, and have done for years. Both myself and anyone who i climb with who do lots of dynos didn't get into it by trying to climb static - in fact quite the opposite as those people who try adn climb static all the time are invariable incapable of even slapping, never mind dynoing. Being able to climb static makes you good at climbing static, noting else. Also if you climb static all the time it takes the edge of your contact stregth, as you are always hitting holds in control. To catch hard dynos you need good fast contact strength (and to a lesser extent easier ones too), and you get this by doing loads of problems where you have no alternative but to slap for holds or jump or dyno. Its nothing to do with "strengthening tendons" more than any other kind of climbing. So what if the person asking is a beginner? we were all beginners at one stage, and much better to learn how to dyno at the start rather than trying to avoid it and become a static climber then trying to unlearn everything you've ever done. You don't condition yourself for big dynos by climbing static, you do it be doing loads of easier dynos. Hands up anyone who ever injured a tendon doing jug-to-jug dynos? No-one? Now hand up all those who got injured pulling on crimps and pockets? To get good at dynos you start on something easy and then work up to it. Simple as that, the same as trying to get good at anything. You don't get to be a good 100m sprinter by training to walk 100m in control.

As for all that guff about hurting yourself landing etc its just the same as any bouldering. If you wanna doa dyno problem you approach it as any other problem, get the mats sorted and then get soem spotters and if you're unsure work up to it a bit. Some abstract view that somehoe you're going to cripple yourself doing dyno but not doing aretes, roofs etc is just bizarre. Personally i've only hurt ankles etc doing non-dyno problems. naybe its because you're often happy to climb normal problems with dodgy landings, but reluctant to do dynos where the landing is bad - its common sense.

Anyway, if you can list a load of classic dyno problems that you've trained and worked up to using your static training methodology then I'm sure that will go some way to proving your credentials to be giving advice on dynos, and then I'll retract everything i've said as you're clearly right.

In reply to Anonymous:
Good reply. Im positively rubbish at dynos cos I climb static all the time. I think its a comfort thang!
Must train more! Must fight demons! Must rip the piss out of idiots who spend more time typing than climbing (OffWidth)!

In reply to Layla:
1 Learning to dyno is a valuable skill because as you reach you personal limit, if you want to improve you will have to move from a static to dynamic style.

2 PRACTICE IN A SAFE ENVIRONMENT you will be less inhibited and learn more readily.

3 PRACTICE AT A LOW SKILL LEVEL do something easy lots of times before you try something demanding.

4 LEARN TO FOCUS UNBLINKINGLY like a martial artist would on your target hold. You have to previsuslise (imagine) grasping the hold, then give the move all you've got. There can be no holding back.

In reply to stonedonkey:


I think half the battle with dynos is believing you're going to make it. If you don't believe you are going to make it then you aren't!
It's an all or nothing type thing, quite a bit different to more static moves and it does take some getting used to.

I'm rubbish at dynos, at least partially because I never practice them and so don't usually believe I'll manage the move.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yeah that stuff about tendons does seem a little illogical. Usually when you dyno it's using big holds, so your tendons don't have to work that hard. Plus you usually catch dynos on the way up, or in moment of zero g just before you start to come down again, so you aren't actually shock loading that much. And as the anon said, hardly anyone injures their tendons dynoing - it's crimps and pockets and cranking too hard that does the damage.

And learning to dyno is a good thing to do when you're a beninner. I prefer to climb everything dynamically rather than statically, but even so it took me a long time to learn how to actually dyno - it's a specialised type of movement that you have to practise as it involves using your body completely differently to any other techniques. The key for me was realising that although height might make a difference, if you've got the technique sorted height really isn't that important.

In reply to Ali:
KK is where I've been practicing too. That out of control feeling isn't nice is it?


To everyone: The reason I want to dyno, and particularly two handed dyno, is because it looks fun and will give me a sense of achievement if I actually master it. I need to keep finding new problems to tackle, otherwise I'll get bored (as anyone who's been to KK will know!) I'm miles from anywhere real to climb so have to make do with the wall for regular climbing.

I always warm up and do have a couple of spotters who I trust, thanks for reminding me though!

Thanks for all the advice, I will go and get jumping around now, practicing, and will try and remember all the advice when I'm next at the wall.

In reply to Anonymous:
you don't get into dynos by trying to climb static all the time, in fact thats the worst thing to do. I do a lot of dynos, and have done for years. Both myself and anyone who i climb with who do lots of dynos didn't get into it by trying to climb static Being able to climb static makes you good at climbing static, noting else.

That's what I thought! Climbing static is nothing like dynoing, and you certainly can't dyno statically, I've tried! I'm not a beginner, I'm quite a good static climber with plenty of arm and finger strength, I'm just a beginner dynoer, and it is a completely different thing!
I guess practice is the key, and believing that I WILL make it, rather than approaching the problem thinking I won't make it if I try so why bother trying?

Thanks for all the help and advice (again)

In reply to Layla:


Hi layla,

You could try using eft.

http://www.emofree.com/

its a good tool!

Good luck with your dynoing.

Kev

In reply to Anonymous:

I have absolutely nothing against dynos in a wider sense; just the limited scope of the two handed double dynos for jugs badly practiced indoors by those new to the game and encouraged, without being tempered by other considerations, by those who should know better. Yes its an angle or a part hijack but thats my view. Yes, dynos also great fun. Yes, for more advanced climbers double dynos when taken to things like the campus board in a structured training regime (or rounded slaps on the real thing) can bring satisfaction and big gains in ability.

Incidently its obvious the climber posting is no beginner, just clearly a dyno beginner.

My ability is easy (and cheap) to attack and obvious from my profile: the hardest dyno problems I've done are around the UK 6a mark. Hence, I possibly have zero credentials in your thesis but I do listen to and watch better climbers and try and modify my views accordingly. Many of the worlds best coaches were mediocre at best at their chosen activities but listened watched, applied and adjusted as opposed to following the crowd 'who know how its done'. On the other hand a lot of outstanding practitioners have made lousy coaches. Although I've no grandeous illusions about my coaching ability I think the message there is important and certainly a few climbers I've helped get started have gone a fair bit further than me.

I've helped out with a student club for over a decade and have seen a number of people get into climbing and end up with shoulder, finger, tendon and falling off injuries from dynoing indoors a bit too often as part of a fun group; the situation often exasperated by over-ambition or not warming up properly. I've also damaged finger tendons myself and suffered a minor shoulder sprain despite being more careful (mostly...we are all human). Hence, 'my hand is up' as at least one of my injuries was from landing a jug (badly) and I've seen plenty more: jugs can have sharp edges or natural hand positions that are hard to hit. Oh and yes other bits of climbing hurt people as well: climbing is dangerous.

Hence what I'm proposing is fitness for purpose and in my view, especially because dynos look great and generate crowds and peer pressure, those new to the technique should especially try to think about the risks as well as the fun. I guess partly due to this I think double dynos between big jugs indoors is a bit artificial, overrated, over practiced and doesnt need more encouragement (my approach to jamming, high rockovers and other less popular but generally much more useful techniques would be the exact opposite). I agree controlled slaps are very much more important in real climbing (more practice of those would be good) but you dont find many 'dyno beginners' rushing to try such problems indoors. I also think controlled slaps are better practiced in more common situation: semi-dynamic and one handed and by then concentrating on the body position aspects that are often more important in making them hold. I recommended static practice not to help dyno technique but to learn what to do when you'd rather not dyno and suffer its sometimes 'do-or-die' consequencies on real bold routes.

In reply to arctickev: hmmm, interesting, will have to do further research on eft, thanks for the tip!

In reply to Offwidth:
I will certainly be taking all your advice on board, and maybe not get so hung up about not being able to dyno! I'm generally ok with controlled slaps, but the particular dyno I was trying (and failing!) involved starting in a crouching position and leaping off to grab the jug with one hand, but impossible to do without letting go with both hands because of the distance needed to be covered. It just looks fun that's all!
I agree that body positioning is often more important if you want to complete a route, but sometimes the only way to complete some routes indoors is to dyno (I guess most route setters are men and thus taller than me!), and I don't want my inability to do this to prevent me from completing an otherwise doable route for me. Hence the asking for help!

In reply to Layla: Oooo, when do you go to the wall? We could always practise being pathetic together....

In reply to Ali:
monday evenings, when do you go? if you can make it this monday come along, I will be attempting to dyno and being pathetic so, yeah, join me!

In reply to Layla: Hmmm, I usually go on wednesdays as go to the garage on mondays (which incidently is probably a good place to practice dynos from sit starts....)

In reply to Ali:
oh well, never mind! I used to go on wednesdays but can't get a babysitter for that night anymore. Maybe I've seen you down there, you with the 4Cs?
Good luck with the dynoing!

In reply to Layla:

Seems like a sensible attitude to me. Aside from missing key warm up and risk reduction advice, some of the tips above were very good, in particular those that separate your apparent real problem (jumping) from the boulder problem itself. Start with a good long warm up routine then break the problem into component parts: get used to the push required from your legs without jumping, then try controlled jumps slightly away from the wall on less steep terrain (getting used to landing safely is key to this so use a spotter you can trust). Then focus on keeping the jump in on steeper terrain (try to touch the hold not catch it) and than think about landing it. People who make these things look effortless have the body movements (engrams) wired and hence have a much lower risk of injuries. Incidently a high(er) foot can still really help on dynos as you can push off a lower foot onto extra push from the higher one but getting used to the flow of this can take time: start with basic jumps first.

In reply to Offwidth:
Thanks, your advice is much appreciated!

In reply to Offwidth:


I'd like to support just about everything you've said on dynos, especially with respect to kids. Their physiology is quite different to an adults, and not taken into account often enough when giving advice. I've seen 2 kids now with plate damage to the first joint below their finger nail from a dumb move. In both cases the finger has not grown properly, withered from the plate up to the finger nail. Another 11-yr-old kept collasping without warning, nothing neural, but classic of a kid growing too fast as bone growth at this age is almost entirely above & below the knee. The leg calf muscles were permanently tensed as muscles (tendons, etc. etc) all grow at different rates. The permanent muscle tension sent a message to the brain to collaspe to avoid tearing the muscle. So lots of stretching needed here.

The ability to jump vertically high and touch markers with finger tips is classic test in sport physiology to identify whether you have more Type II (fast twitch...ie 100m runners, basketball) or Type I (slow twitch....ie long distance running) muscle fibre. Depending on height reached, info cross-referenced. So how high anyone can jump is genetically determined by our muscle type, though it can be trained. Type II will still jump higher than Type I.

In reply to Audry Morrison:
so type II are going to be predisposed to be better at dynoing than type I? does that mean I can use genetics as an excuse!

is there a way I can tell if I'm more type I or type II myself? ...I'm guessing I'm type I due to my lack of jumping skills...

In reply to Audry Morrison: People have a mix of fast and slow twitch fibres so no one is pure type II even an olympic sprinter. Would you test a kid then say you can't play basketball because your type I?

Dynoing is a bit of fun to be had at the wall just as trying very hard and failing on a 6a problem can be.

In reply to Layla:

To pratise getting jumping whilst hanging on, just jump as high as possible, but don't bother trying to hold anything. Just get someone to spot you as you land on the amt behind you. Then once you've started actually jumping upwards, start trying to slap a jug.

Hopefully it should fall into place.

In reply to Layla:

After extensive enquiries as to your bodyform from your two year old, and she was a bit vague, I would say you are bumfast.

This is a common affliction of women of a certain shape. pear. they reach for a hold but their arse slows them down, it is the reverse of Einsteins theory of relativity. the harder you reach, the the further away from the hold you are.

Take heart, you can overcome this by going on the FH dietplan. visit the butchers in Pately high street and say a FH special pie please, dont forget the please, and the shop will sell you a pie the weight you never saw before.

Carry this round for a month, alternating hands to balance the muscle up, or if flush buy two pies.

At the end of the month send the pies to the Birch Inn, wilsill and say they are for FH. the landlord will then test your running skills by chasing you down the road.

Next months training schedule tomorrow, maybe.

In the meantime, try using a 30m walking rope for skipping down the road.

In reply to Layla:

You can blame your predominant muscle type on your parents, or celebrate them. As we’re largely stuck with what we have, I suggest the latter option and make it work to your benefit. Specific training can influence muscle function & recruitment during specific types of exercise away from climbing if you like. Greater changes through training can take place in slow twitch muscle fibres with training (as this involves largely aerobic energy systems, glycogen stores, fatty acid stores), than with fast twitch muscle fibres which involves anaerobic energy systems largely.

So I’m quite confident that good boulderers probably have more fast twitch muscles, as do those who dyno remarkably well. There’s obviously other qualities needed to dyno well, but muscle type does matter.

Genetics will also determine which motor neurons innervate (send nerve impulses) to individual muscle fibres.

Some basics:

Fast Twitch (FT) Muscle Fibres

-better for anaerobic or explosive activites (use energy system PCr/ATP which lasts about 8 seconds, so don’t have to worry about breathing, except when this energy runs out), so these powerful muscle fibres fatigue easily ie you’re good for a 100m run, slam dunk basketball point, weight-lifting
-there are substantially more muscle fibres that are innervated by a single motor neuron in FT, so that each nerve stimulates 300-800 fibres, as opposed to 10-180 fibres in slow twitch (ST) fibres, hence much more power/force.

Slow Twitch (ST)
-high aerobic capacity & fatigue resistance
-able to tap in different energy systems as already mentioned
-excellent for low-intensity endurance events

So, you can work with what you got, and get those muscles functioning better, though serious gains in FT muscle fibre recruitment will not be as significant as ST muscle fibre recruitment with serious cross training. If I don't climb, I'll go row for an hour with some resistance work as I fall into the ST camp. It does transfer well to the bouldering wall for some routes.

In reply to Layla: Power to weight ratio?

In reply to sutty:
Your comments are neither sensitive nor insightful. If Layla has a rear like a black sprinter, then we're talking a lot of fast twitch muscle and power. This can be very useful. A lot of climbers don't have this physique. Over development of thigh muscles is properly also not a good idea as the extra muscle weight will not necessarily be compensated for by the muscles/tendons in the hands. Low lean body mass, high strength to weight ratio (both for body and finger strength) is still a pretty fair anthropometric profile of a climber.

In reply to Audry Morrison:
Blimey, someone says they cant dyno and you aren't half being over-scientific.
All they've got to do is jump, its not in the muscles, its all in the head!

In reply to sutty:

lol! You must have been speaking to the wrong two year old, mine's a boy by the way!
And I'm happy to say I'm not pear shaped and don't have a big bum! One of the reasons I'm a generally good climber is my power to weight ratio, I don't weigh much and carrying a growing baby/toddler around has given me plenty of upper body strength, far more effective than carrying pies around-but thanks for the training tips though, they gave me a laugh!

In reply to Audry Morrison:
hmmm, from your post I'd say I probably do have more FT muscle fibres after all, I guess as Si dH said quite rightly, all I've got to do is jump, its not in the muscles, its all in the head!

In reply to Layla:

I’m going to confess to studying Human Nutrition at Uni, with 2 years (this & next) of project work focused on the physiological demands of climbing. So apologies to those who find science boring, but it can help identify, explain and offer solutions to improve performance and recovery.

Climbing generally is poorly represented in Sport Science research compared to cycling, swimming, running, etc, especially the physiological demands. Researching papers & cross-referencing with experienced climbers/instructors is really informative. Some of Offwidth’s observations & experience are pretty spot on with current literature, as is that of many experienced instructors I speak with. There is precious little research on physiological demands on children, their bodies/physiology/growth is quite different to ours, & his views/caution entirely justified.

Back to the point, if all you got out of this thread was “all I've got to do is jump, its not in the muscles, its all in the head!” having posed the question in the first place, it’s a bit like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz not realising that all she had to do was turn around 3 times, click her magic red shoes together 3 times, and hey presto she’s back home! Yes, absolutely don’t dyno unless you really believe you can. Self belief & confidence is critical in a sport with more associated risk than most other sports. But while it’s an important variable, it’s one of many variables….. muscle type, training, diet, circulating levels of hormones,etc.

“All you have to do is jump” is advice you can illicit from your 2-year old, and I’m sure he’s bright.

If you’re interested in a helpful book:

Anita Bean “The Complete Guide to Sports Nutrition”. It’s an accessible read(with some science) if you’re looking to get better fitness/strength. Most of the sport/science I read is pretty anal, and wouldn’t recommend unless you were very, very, very interested.

In reply to Layla:I don'y know very much about sports physiology,but i guess the thing that injures people most with dynos is the catching the hold you're going for(the jumping just needs' practice i think),maybe you could climb over hanging juggy routes (after warming up) and try and lunge for the holds a bit to simulate the catching and hanging on part of dynoing,i suppose it's shock loading your tendons when you catch hold of a hold after a jump.

In reply to Audry Morrison:

I certainly got a hell of a lot more than that out of this thread, and am very greatful to everyone who offered tips and advice, and believe it or not, I like the scientific stuff so am greatful for all the information you provided!!
The thing is, I think a lot of my inability to dyno lies in my lack of self-confidence, so was agreeing to the part about it being in the head rather than the part about jumping! I was hoping for advice on conquering the mental block when it comes to actually taking the plunge, as I think I'm probably strong enough and can jump quite high if I start with both feet firmly on the ground!!

anyway, even if not everyone wanted to know about the scientific stuff, I found it interesting, and like to understand how our bodies work, it can help improve climbing ability and technique can't it! Thanks

In reply to Si dH: I would agree with you to an extent but...I could slam dunk(ish) a basket ball when I was 18 and would get a nose bleed from the altutude if I tried now. Nowt to do with my head, lots to do with too many miles on the clock.

Has anyone noticed how important relaxation is when dynoing?

In reply to Audry Morrison:

hi, sorry this is completely off the point, but just wondering what university you are at where you're doing a climbing-related project?

hoping to study exercise physiology in england in a couple of years' time (im in university in ireland at the moment) and just looking at the options at the moment!!

In reply to Richard Bradley:


Absolutely. Your analogy with basketball is one I've considered myself, though in a different way. Unlike you I never could dunk (I won't use the too small excuse, given that 5'4" Spudd Webb won the slam dunk contest - but let's just say I wasn't tall enough to do it without serious training). But I did get good enough at shooting to sink shot after shot from beyond the arc when I was in the zone. And that's the thing, getting in the zone was always something that happened midway through a session, when I had warmed up and got into the movement, and before I was too tired. Thing is, when you're in the zone, you just *know* you're not going to miss, but it's not something you can force, you have to relax and let it come. Dynos are the same, I've always found. You just have to keep at it until you forget why you're doing it, and then without you realising it's happened, things just seem to flow, you get closer and closer to the jug and eventually you land it. Swish!

In reply to Layla:
>Layla, these are personal questions and considerations, so it’s best to probably not reply in the forum unless you want to. I pleased you got a lot out of the various points of views and technique, but you are a relatively new mum now, and that does change things somewhat. I’m in no doubt that you love you son & would do anything for him, but your heart grows somewhat disproportionately as a result (I’m not taking science now). Your son’s young & very dependent on you, you must feel somewhat vulnerable, protective, nurturing, having to think for 2 people all the time, not just yourself. What if you missed that dyno and really injured yourself? How easy would it be to look after yourself, and your son… couldn’t pick him up, etc. This must play in your subconscious somewhere and impact on your risk taking decisions.

Your hormonal profile will be slightly different now than pre-pregnancy. Babies are wonderful scavengers making sure they get exactly what they need, even if you don’t. For example, their demand for iron in their first few months is greater than an adult male, and your son ensured he got his iron reserve from you before he was born. He may have left you deficient in iron, or other micronutrients. This will affect mental & physical aspects.

Was your delivery straight-forward, no complications for either of you? No Caesarean cutting through muscle groups? If you lie flat on your back on the floor, lift your head & shoulders slightly, while digging in your index & middle finger vertically below your navel. Can you fit your fingers in between those long muscles directly below your navel? I’m thinking you’re probably in pretty good shape, but many women don’t work hard enough at aligning those long abdominal muscles that part when you’re pregnant. I’ve actually been able to virtually stick my fist through some women’s bellies at the gym a year after they gave birth, and they wonder why they have back pain, which can only get worse unless their abdomen is really toned. If there is even a slight separation, make sure you work your core muscles religiously to get them fully aligned and strong.

Dyno, or no dyno, enjoy the climbing, and your son. Work with what you're confident with, and you'll build on it with time.

In reply to Ciara:

I'm at Westminster Uni, and the new sport physiology haed is fantastic. She's an experienced athlete, coaches at elite level and otherwise, is published regularly, and is a great tutor. There is no tradition for climbing research at my Uni though, only my enthusiasm, drive, and ability to get a lot of interest and support for my project.

In reply to Audry Morrison:


You know, I think about this all the time, and a number of times when I'm trying to dyno just as I'm about to lunge I get this mental image of my son in my head and what would happen if I injured myself. So it's not just me then and quite a normal feeling for mums!

For example, their demand for iron in their first few months is greater than an adult male, and your son ensured he got his iron reserve from you before he was born.

...and afterwards!
I’ve actually been able to virtually stick my fist through some women’s bellies at the gym a year after they gave birth,

nice!

no complications, thankfully, and no seperation between the muscles either.


I will be doing that, thanks for all the advice!

In reply to Audry Morrison:

Get your plum out of your gob woman, saying my posting was unhlpful.

Do you actually think any of it was serious, if so you need to visit the surgeon for a lobotomy as you have a serious humour bypass that needs sorting.

Read what I wrote, it was as if I was getting information from a two year old to diagnose what was wrong, if you would do that you are seriously flawed in your research.

Layla saw it for what it was, a pisstake.

The pies in Pateley are good however.

(Gordon, don't forget my commission)

In reply to Audry Morrison: what the .....?this has to be a wind up.even fiend couldnt come up with a response like that.

In reply to sutty:

As there are two butchers in Pateley - which one out of interest?

In reply to Layla:

I just did my FIRST EVER dyno this morning. It wasn't that I was scared, as such, just thought I was not bouncy enough to do it so never eventried doing it. This one was from about ground level so the height was not an issue. (Although face scrapeage is still ALWAYS a consideration...)
It feels good.
At least it did, until Muz made the same move statically. Grrr!
I hope you do get to do it some time as it feels very satisfying!

In reply to sutty:

I don't know either you or Layla, but some people are incredibly sensitive about their weight, body image. Some climbers have some really peculiar eating habits to lose weight, or just fast, which is equally stupid, especially if you want to improve performance/recovery. A lot for women hate having a fat ass, big tits can also get in the way of dynoing. It doesn't hurt to point out that our physiology is different, and all the better for it. I'm tall and lean, always have been, and it pisses a lot of people off unintentionally, notably when doing skin fold tests with calipers to measure people's body fat.

I'll take your word on the fineness of the pies though.

In reply to Audry Morrison: I have really peculiar eating habits to lose weight. Pie chips and gravy every night. The secrets in the tape worms...

In reply to Richard Bradley, Sutty, mark s, and purveyors of fine pies

As you’re not likely to experience what pregnancy can do to your physiology and psyche, and I genuinely hope you haven’t lost a partner climbing or had a serious accident (as these all can really make you think twice about taking on more risk as they seriously rattle your psyche…. but eventually you probably will again in time) be a sport and have a go a vertical jump test. Go to

http://www.soccerclinicseurope.co.uk/ICAArticle2.htm?PHPSESSID=98045c934e9e...

Chalk finger tips and touch wall with vertically outstretched hand as high above your head as possible to set your initial static outstretched position. Don’t use the running start, perform test from squat position, it’s more reflective of what’s needed in dynoing. Jump up and touch wall again at highest point. Repeat 3 times, take best result of 3 and refer to table to see how powerful your largest skeletal muscle group is (& indirectly a crude measure of the predominate muscle type).

If you’d like more science on a vertical jump & how to improve it, go to www.sportsci.com/ , go into sport science library, search for SSE#3 training to improve vertical jump. Good site for endurance stuff as well.

If you’re still on this website, search under home page for sport nutrition, click, scroll to General and click “Eating disorders in Males” there’s a very large study of male athletes with 16% of climbers having such disorders. Excess weight is an issue in many aesthetic sports, and climbing is considered an aesthetic sport. A lot of people struggle with their weight control. There’s a limit to what our hands, finger tips can support unaided.

Even in my world of nutritionists, there’s no shortage of Class 1, even Class II obese practitioners advising on how to lose weight, but clearly not following their own advice. There’s officially more overweight people now in the world, than underweight according to World Health Organisation, which includes developing countries.

With respect to the psyche angle of risk taking was covered quite well in http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/497803_print/ profiling 4 extreme risk sports (including climbing, soloing).extreme risk takers in climbing were found to be motivated by the desire for mastery & achievement, but once achieved time to move on to higher attainment for self reward, climbers related the feeling of movement & rhythmical pleasure in the experience, pleasure & beauty of controlled movement in space. In all the 4 sports, most high-risk takers spoke of the aesthetic beauty of a manoeuvre well done being an important element.

Those findings sound pretty fair & obvious, it’s hard not to admire talented climbers at many levels, especially when they make it look easy & fluid. If you’re up for it, search for the tests used in this study and see how you fare on inhibition of fear, anxiety, death, repression-sensitisation, Zuckerman’s sensation seeking scale, etc.

Layla will no doubt learn to dyno in her own time when she’s ready to take on more risk. Once she’s psyched up for it, the advice provided on techniques was really useful.

In reply to Audry Morrison:

What you write is all very interesting, but have there actually been any studies to show this is the case? You seem to be taking quite a lot for granted here by assuming that only power and bravery ("Layla will no doubt learn to dyno in her own time when she’s ready to take on more risk") are required to dyno. All my past experiences tell me that the most important thing in dynoing is technique, which you have largely ignored.

...Most people can quite easily jump 30cm off the ground, but the technique required to manouevere their body above a foothold and dynamically extend the legs at precisely the right time means that jumping 30cm above a foothold on a wall is actually quite difficult, especially when the whole thing is complicated by other variables such as awkard footholds, handholds, finishing holds, body position, gradient etc.

So although performance in squat jumps might demonstrate a potential muscular ability, I have always found that technical ability has a more drastic impact on ability to dyno. Thus a running jump might prove a far more effective measure of dynoing ability. And of course, technical ability (or talent) can be just as inherited as muscle fibre...we all know the difference between a natural climber and a determined snatcher when we see them!

Anyway, science is all very well, but having ideas doesn't necessarily equate to having answers. Obviously the same goes for my theory as well as yours!

I'm really happy! This week I took the plunge and actually jumped! Once I had got it I found that I could do it again and again, so kept practicing leaping, not trying to catch onto a hold or anything, just jumping as high as I could and touching the wall with my fingertips. I'm still a good six inches below the hold that I will eventually be aiming for, so maybe it just is too far away for someone of my hight, but I feel good!


Once I overcome the initial fear and proved to my body that it really isn't a long way to fall I had loads more confidence, so was more relaxed and focused on the actual jumping and technique. I will keep practicing and reinforcing the engram in the safety of the wall with it's oh-so-useful padded floor, and hopefully be able to apply it to other dynamic and semi-dynamic moves.

Thank for everyone's help and advice, you're all great!

In reply to Layla:too alot of of people a dyno would be just a slap.full on dyno's are very rare.i have had to do 1 full on dyno on a route,there is no other way round it.no chance of a strong person doin a static move on it.
dynoin is 1 of thoase things you either can or cant.
my mate can crimp on a font 8a but cant dyno,never has never will.
see you at dyno comp then?