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How ,many knots do you know?
Here's my list:
Bowline
Fig 8
Italian hitch
Prussic
Rolling Hitch
Alpine butterfly knot
Sheet bend
Fishermans's
Here's my list:
Bowline
Fig 8
Italian hitch
Prussic
Rolling Hitch
Alpine butterfly knot
Sheet bend
Fishermans's
In reply to JRobertson:
waterknot
blood knot
overhand
granny knot
sheepshank
bowline
reef knot
turks head (but i can't tie it)
larks head
various types of prussik
fig 8
fig 9
clove hitch
fishermans bend
and various types of splices.
P 'was a boy scout once' T
waterknot
blood knot
overhand
granny knot
sheepshank
bowline
reef knot
turks head (but i can't tie it)
larks head
various types of prussik
fig 8
fig 9
clove hitch
fishermans bend
and various types of splices.
P 'was a boy scout once' T
In reply to Hotbad Peteel: wtf is a fig 9?
In reply to djviper: a figure of 8 with an extra twist in it.
In reply to JRobertson:
Double bowline, triple bowline, bowline on the bight, double figure of eight (bunny knot), monkey's fist, timber hitch, klemheist (type of prussic knot), Bachmann (type of prussic knot), directional figure of eight, barrel knot (double fisherman's), reef knot, thief's knot, round turn with two half hitches, overhand (figure of four), tape knot and, sadly, more.
My anorak is wearing rather thin now, I have to go.
Double bowline, triple bowline, bowline on the bight, double figure of eight (bunny knot), monkey's fist, timber hitch, klemheist (type of prussic knot), Bachmann (type of prussic knot), directional figure of eight, barrel knot (double fisherman's), reef knot, thief's knot, round turn with two half hitches, overhand (figure of four), tape knot and, sadly, more.
My anorak is wearing rather thin now, I have to go.
In reply to brt:
Ah, I bet you mean similar to Yosemite Bowline with a double loop to start with. Sorry to be picky, a double fig 8 is basically a fig 8 loop; bunny ears is a fig 8 on the bight. And I suspect what most people call a Barrel knot is indeed a half double fishermans tied on itself - as seen on cavers cowstails (it's often referred to as a Barrel knot but an angler wouldn't recognise what you had tied).
http://www.killroys.com/knots/barrel.htm
A Barrel knot or Blood knot is something a little (just) different.
Ah, I bet you mean similar to Yosemite Bowline with a double loop to start with. Sorry to be picky, a double fig 8 is basically a fig 8 loop; bunny ears is a fig 8 on the bight. And I suspect what most people call a Barrel knot is indeed a half double fishermans tied on itself - as seen on cavers cowstails (it's often referred to as a Barrel knot but an angler wouldn't recognise what you had tied).
http://www.killroys.com/knots/barrel.htm
A Barrel knot or Blood knot is something a little (just) different.
In reply to JRobertson:
Reef knot
Overhand knot
Tape knot**
Clove Hitch**
Bowline**
Bowline on the Bight
Triple Bowline
Round turn and two half hitches (always used to use this for main belay)
Fisherman's Knot
Double Fisherman's**
Tarbuck Knot (still useful for improvising a broken guy rope etc)
Prussik Knot
Bachmann Knot**
French Prussik
Pemberthy Knot
Klemheist Knot (these last three I'd have to look up to work out which is which - all basically the same knot finished off in different ways)
Figure of 8**
Figure of 9*
Alpine Butterfly*
Italian Hitch (worth knowing how to do in an emergency i.e when belay/abseil plate is lost)
Sheet Bend
Double Sheet Bend*
Sheep Shank
Highwayman's Hitch
Dolly Knot (lorry drivers') - can't say I can remember how to do either of last two with certainty.
** The main ones I still use for climbing
* Very useful for single rope technique/setting up belays for a static line
Reef knot
Overhand knot
Tape knot**
Clove Hitch**
Bowline**
Bowline on the Bight
Triple Bowline
Round turn and two half hitches (always used to use this for main belay)
Fisherman's Knot
Double Fisherman's**
Tarbuck Knot (still useful for improvising a broken guy rope etc)
Prussik Knot
Bachmann Knot**
French Prussik
Pemberthy Knot
Klemheist Knot (these last three I'd have to look up to work out which is which - all basically the same knot finished off in different ways)
Figure of 8**
Figure of 9*
Alpine Butterfly*
Italian Hitch (worth knowing how to do in an emergency i.e when belay/abseil plate is lost)
Sheet Bend
Double Sheet Bend*
Sheep Shank
Highwayman's Hitch
Dolly Knot (lorry drivers') - can't say I can remember how to do either of last two with certainty.
** The main ones I still use for climbing
* Very useful for single rope technique/setting up belays for a static line
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Interesting re: the double sheet bend and SRT. Could you explain please. Love knot theory.
Cheers if you have time.
Interesting re: the double sheet bend and SRT. Could you explain please. Love knot theory.
Cheers if you have time.
In reply to James Jackson:
The nomenclature has got confused over the years but bunny ears is Fig 8 on bight. What most people call fig 8 on bight is Fig 8 loop.
The nomenclature has got confused over the years but bunny ears is Fig 8 on bight. What most people call fig 8 on bight is Fig 8 loop.
In reply to James Jackson:
I've only got paper notes to hand so couldn't show you. I think what you're now describing - with two loops - is indeed fig 8 bight. It's not a knot frequently used by climbers (nor for that matter bowline on the bight) so hard to give you a climbing reference to view. Caving and rope access literature should have. Where I've got most of mine from.
I've only got paper notes to hand so couldn't show you. I think what you're now describing - with two loops - is indeed fig 8 bight. It's not a knot frequently used by climbers (nor for that matter bowline on the bight) so hard to give you a climbing reference to view. Caving and rope access literature should have. Where I've got most of mine from.
In reply to brt:
The bunny knot and double bowline (as I, probably incorrectly, called them earlier) are indeed tied as in the pictures in the link you provided and are ideal for Y-hangs as quoted in the text.
The barrel knot is, as you said, basically half a double fisherman's tied back on it's own standing part. It is a knot used primarily in cowstails, though I myself prefer a Fig 8 for this purpose. The barrel knot traps the krab and renders it less versatile, especially when aiding.
Whilst were on the matter of knots. Does a "hitch" class as a knot"?
As was mentioned earlier a round turn and two half-hitches serves as an effective belay knot and used to be, I don't know if it still is, an acceptable substitute for a bowline when rigging for the SPSA. So maybe a hitch can class as a knot.
My thought on the matter is that a hitch is not technically classed as a knot because, without the application of a load and/or external object (eg a krab (clove & italian), tree (round turn & 2 half hitches) or canoe thwart (highwayman's hitch)), a hitch will not hold it's basic shape.
Any thoughts folks?
The bunny knot and double bowline (as I, probably incorrectly, called them earlier) are indeed tied as in the pictures in the link you provided and are ideal for Y-hangs as quoted in the text.
The barrel knot is, as you said, basically half a double fisherman's tied back on it's own standing part. It is a knot used primarily in cowstails, though I myself prefer a Fig 8 for this purpose. The barrel knot traps the krab and renders it less versatile, especially when aiding.
Whilst were on the matter of knots. Does a "hitch" class as a knot"?
As was mentioned earlier a round turn and two half-hitches serves as an effective belay knot and used to be, I don't know if it still is, an acceptable substitute for a bowline when rigging for the SPSA. So maybe a hitch can class as a knot.
My thought on the matter is that a hitch is not technically classed as a knot because, without the application of a load and/or external object (eg a krab (clove & italian), tree (round turn & 2 half hitches) or canoe thwart (highwayman's hitch)), a hitch will not hold it's basic shape.
Any thoughts folks?
In reply to sam williams:
I've heard an American call bunny ears/fig 8 bight etc an 88! Double 8... suppose it fits!
When I did SPSA (SPA now) we had to learn and tie 12 knots, one of which was round turn etc. As a trainer we're now encouraged not to show to much in the way of knots - people will get by with what they know (right or wrong).
IIRC from Ashleys, a hitch isn't a knot (or I've got it completely wrong!! - but I'm not at work so can't check).
It's the definition of bight and loop, and their differences, which led to my earlier (perhaps pedantic - sorry) thread. A loop crosses itself, a bight doesn't.
This is meant not to sound preachy BTW. Knots are lovely things and it's more important to tie a good 'un rather than now it's name.
I've heard an American call bunny ears/fig 8 bight etc an 88! Double 8... suppose it fits!
When I did SPSA (SPA now) we had to learn and tie 12 knots, one of which was round turn etc. As a trainer we're now encouraged not to show to much in the way of knots - people will get by with what they know (right or wrong).
IIRC from Ashleys, a hitch isn't a knot (or I've got it completely wrong!! - but I'm not at work so can't check).
It's the definition of bight and loop, and their differences, which led to my earlier (perhaps pedantic - sorry) thread. A loop crosses itself, a bight doesn't.
This is meant not to sound preachy BTW. Knots are lovely things and it's more important to tie a good 'un rather than now it's name.
In reply to JRobertson:
This thread has just inspired me to learn some new knots!
Can you use an alpine butterfly to equalise a belay using slings or rope?
This thread has just inspired me to learn some new knots!
Can you use an alpine butterfly to equalise a belay using slings or rope?
In reply to brt:
This is my favoured knot for the main anchor sling when the belay is a long way back from the edge when you want to set up a static line: eg. if you want to fix a line to the right of Darius for taking pictures at High Tor at Matlock. You will then use that huge tree which must be 30 ft or so back from the edge, and make a giant sling from a climbing rope, or preferably a static line.
First step is to set up the anchor: a big tape sling round the tree with a large maillon. Next, the extension loop. Lay out enough rope, plus, on the ground, to make the sling. At the point of the loop near the belay, tie a figure-of-nine (the most shock absorbent knot there is) and clip into the anchor. Then go to edge of crag and make the loop, using the double sheet bend. The beauty of this knot is that you can have it right near the edge where you want it and get the length of the loop exactly right, being able to adjust it very easily. (But there's a bit of a trick to this if you're really paranoid, because you'll want to make the loop oversize by an exact amount, so you can then tie another figure-of-nine at this crag end also. Do you follow? - in case, for any bizarre reason the sheetbend fails, or the anchor fails on one side, it will still hold on the other side.) You'll then clip another maillon or big steel D screw into this new, edge-of-crag anchor, and then clip the static line and an ordinary climbing rope as a safety line into that - both with figure-of-nines.
Next you'll abseil over the edge, with a shunt on the safety line, and put a rope protector round the static line at the edge of the crag as you go. Resting on the shunt, you'll then put loop/s with Alpine Butterfly/ies in the static line and arrange extra bombproof nut belay/s below the crag edge (this as protection against farmers or tourists armed with machetes, or a nylon-hungry rottweilers, who will want to destroy your main belay loop ... you really do have to think of all eventualities
Why? Brothersoulshine put it well last night in answer to the question: 'What makes life worth living?' - 'The not being dead bit.'
Why the Alpine Butterfly? Well, again it's quite easy to adjust, once you've got the knack, and the main force on the rope runs right through the middle of the knot (I think it's almost unique in that respect).
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> Interesting re: the double sheet bend and SRT. Could you explain please. Love knot theory.
>
>
> Interesting re: the double sheet bend and SRT. Could you explain please. Love knot theory.
>
This is my favoured knot for the main anchor sling when the belay is a long way back from the edge when you want to set up a static line: eg. if you want to fix a line to the right of Darius for taking pictures at High Tor at Matlock. You will then use that huge tree which must be 30 ft or so back from the edge, and make a giant sling from a climbing rope, or preferably a static line.
First step is to set up the anchor: a big tape sling round the tree with a large maillon. Next, the extension loop. Lay out enough rope, plus, on the ground, to make the sling. At the point of the loop near the belay, tie a figure-of-nine (the most shock absorbent knot there is) and clip into the anchor. Then go to edge of crag and make the loop, using the double sheet bend. The beauty of this knot is that you can have it right near the edge where you want it and get the length of the loop exactly right, being able to adjust it very easily. (But there's a bit of a trick to this if you're really paranoid, because you'll want to make the loop oversize by an exact amount, so you can then tie another figure-of-nine at this crag end also. Do you follow? - in case, for any bizarre reason the sheetbend fails, or the anchor fails on one side, it will still hold on the other side.) You'll then clip another maillon or big steel D screw into this new, edge-of-crag anchor, and then clip the static line and an ordinary climbing rope as a safety line into that - both with figure-of-nines.
Next you'll abseil over the edge, with a shunt on the safety line, and put a rope protector round the static line at the edge of the crag as you go. Resting on the shunt, you'll then put loop/s with Alpine Butterfly/ies in the static line and arrange extra bombproof nut belay/s below the crag edge (this as protection against farmers or tourists armed with machetes, or a nylon-hungry rottweilers, who will want to destroy your main belay loop ... you really do have to think of all eventualities
Why? Brothersoulshine put it well last night in answer to the question: 'What makes life worth living?' - 'The not being dead bit.'
Why the Alpine Butterfly? Well, again it's quite easy to adjust, once you've got the knack, and the main force on the rope runs right through the middle of the knot (I think it's almost unique in that respect).
In reply to sam williams:
> (In reply to brt)
>
>
> Whilst were on the matter of knots. Does a "hitch" class as a knot"?
>
According to Ashley, knots are sort of generically arrangements (tanglements) using rope. A knot is an ebtity on its own, a hitch joins a rope to something, and a bend joins 2 ropes together; they are all forms of knot. It falls down, mind because the fisherman's knot is a bend. >
In reply to mike swann: That should have been "entity" of course.
In reply to brt:
I think that's wrong. The bight is formed by folding the rope over thus creating a loop with two parallel strands leading to the ends. Any knot can be tied on the bight; you just treat the two parallel strands as if they are one. The fig 8 on the bight is just a fig 8 tied with a bight of rope instead of a single strand.
Bunny ears; as in the picture, entails tying most of a fig 8 on the bight, but instead of insering the final loop through the top of the 8, you make a bight on the bight; pass that halfway through, and then fold the end loop over the top of the whole lot.
It's quite commonly used in climbing and is often taught on SPA and MIA courses. It's weakness is that if you only clip one ear, when weighted, the other ear can pull through. It's not dangerous; but it may not be what you expect or want.
> The nomenclature has got confused over the years but bunny ears is Fig 8 on bight. What most people call fig 8 on bight is Fig 8 loop.
I think that's wrong. The bight is formed by folding the rope over thus creating a loop with two parallel strands leading to the ends. Any knot can be tied on the bight; you just treat the two parallel strands as if they are one. The fig 8 on the bight is just a fig 8 tied with a bight of rope instead of a single strand.
Bunny ears; as in the picture, entails tying most of a fig 8 on the bight, but instead of insering the final loop through the top of the 8, you make a bight on the bight; pass that halfway through, and then fold the end loop over the top of the whole lot.
It's quite commonly used in climbing and is often taught on SPA and MIA courses. It's weakness is that if you only clip one ear, when weighted, the other ear can pull through. It's not dangerous; but it may not be what you expect or want.
In reply to Alison Stockwell:
Yep, that's my view too. I think the confusion is caused by the bunny-ears being tied in a similar way (passing the loop over) to a bowline on the bight.
> (In reply to brt)
> [...]
>
> I think that's wrong. The bight is formed by folding the rope over thus creating a loop with two parallel strands leading to the ends. Any knot can be tied on the bight; you just treat the two parallel strands as if they are one. The fig 8 on the bight is just a fig 8 tied with a bight of rope instead of a single strand.
> [...]
>
> I think that's wrong. The bight is formed by folding the rope over thus creating a loop with two parallel strands leading to the ends. Any knot can be tied on the bight; you just treat the two parallel strands as if they are one. The fig 8 on the bight is just a fig 8 tied with a bight of rope instead of a single strand.
Yep, that's my view too. I think the confusion is caused by the bunny-ears being tied in a similar way (passing the loop over) to a bowline on the bight.
In reply to mike swann:
I was thinking about that afterwards. A triple bowline is a bowline tied on the bight, and a bowline on the bight has the loop passed over, so maybe brt has a point.
At the very least, there is a lot of inconsistency.
>
> Yep, that's my view too. I think the confusion is caused by the bunny-ears being tied in a similar way (passing the loop over) to a bowline on the bight.
> Yep, that's my view too. I think the confusion is caused by the bunny-ears being tied in a similar way (passing the loop over) to a bowline on the bight.
I was thinking about that afterwards. A triple bowline is a bowline tied on the bight, and a bowline on the bight has the loop passed over, so maybe brt has a point.
At the very least, there is a lot of inconsistency.
In reply to JRobertson:
slipknot
slipknot
In reply to Alison Stockwell:
Yeah lot's of confusion over knots as they develop and get "invented" or adapted. As Ashleys book points out there are now knots that aren't and bends that are knots etc. I really was only being picky with the names (smart arse and all that! sorry!!). The yanks IIRC call bowline on bight and what I call fog * on bight - Atomic knot or Atomic clip - or some such, someone will clear this up.
Interesting re: bunny ears (as a general bowline or fig 8 on bight term from now on) being taught on SPA. It's something that isn't being encouraged now. Are you an old timer Alison? The staff on my MIA training new this knot but most of the candidates didn't. Different with caving. Known from Level 1 up to CIC.
Cheers for explanation Gordon. Think I got my head around it. A self adjusting knot with a redundant fig 9 for back up...yes?
Yeah lot's of confusion over knots as they develop and get "invented" or adapted. As Ashleys book points out there are now knots that aren't and bends that are knots etc. I really was only being picky with the names (smart arse and all that! sorry!!). The yanks IIRC call bowline on bight and what I call fog * on bight - Atomic knot or Atomic clip - or some such, someone will clear this up.
Interesting re: bunny ears (as a general bowline or fig 8 on bight term from now on) being taught on SPA. It's something that isn't being encouraged now. Are you an old timer Alison? The staff on my MIA training new this knot but most of the candidates didn't. Different with caving. Known from Level 1 up to CIC.
Cheers for explanation Gordon. Think I got my head around it. A self adjusting knot with a redundant fig 9 for back up...yes?
In reply to brt:
The bunny ears wasn't taught on the SPA when I did mine ages ago, but someone else I know did theirs about four years ago and came back raving about it. Then I went out with a guide for a one-day SPA refresher as I like to keep up to date, and he said it was a new one on him.
Last year I did an internal course where we cover some supplementary techniques from the MIA syllabus, and the bunny ears was included, and we actually had a big debate about it because I'd come across the business about it slipping and some of the others hadn't, but one of our MIAs knew a way to lock it off a bit better.
It wouldn't surprise me if it's not being encouraged, but I do wish the MLTUK would issue regular updates to award holders as it's a constant battle to stay current.
The bunny ears wasn't taught on the SPA when I did mine ages ago, but someone else I know did theirs about four years ago and came back raving about it. Then I went out with a guide for a one-day SPA refresher as I like to keep up to date, and he said it was a new one on him.
Last year I did an internal course where we cover some supplementary techniques from the MIA syllabus, and the bunny ears was included, and we actually had a big debate about it because I'd come across the business about it slipping and some of the others hadn't, but one of our MIAs knew a way to lock it off a bit better.
It wouldn't surprise me if it's not being encouraged, but I do wish the MLTUK would issue regular updates to award holders as it's a constant battle to stay current.
In reply to brt:
Well the knot is not 'self' adjusting but very easy to adjust; and yes, you could dispense with the figure of 9s.
>
> Cheers for explanation Gordon. Think I got my head around it. A self adjusting knot with a redundant fig 9 for back up...yes?
> Cheers for explanation Gordon. Think I got my head around it. A self adjusting knot with a redundant fig 9 for back up...yes?
Well the knot is not 'self' adjusting but very easy to adjust; and yes, you could dispense with the figure of 9s.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Yes, sorry meant user adjustable.
MLTUK workshops are like first aid courses... in vogue one minute out the next. I know of one eminent MIC who won't teach clients the bowline. Too easy to get wrong. No doubt we have an opinion on this but it does have some merit. Look at us? We like knots and have an interest in getting them right (and not just on the grounds of self preservation!). He suggest we should be careful what we teach - a little knowledge and all that.
Yes, sorry meant user adjustable.
MLTUK workshops are like first aid courses... in vogue one minute out the next. I know of one eminent MIC who won't teach clients the bowline. Too easy to get wrong. No doubt we have an opinion on this but it does have some merit. Look at us? We like knots and have an interest in getting them right (and not just on the grounds of self preservation!). He suggest we should be careful what we teach - a little knowledge and all that.
In reply to brt:
We where taught to a do bunny ears on my SPA training last year for setting up bottom ropes.
We where taught to a do bunny ears on my SPA training last year for setting up bottom ropes.
In reply to Duncan_S:
Yep. In vogue/out of vogue. I suspect your trainer saw you as someone who could utilise the info. appropriately.
What others did you have to know/demonstrate/get shown out of interest.
Yep. In vogue/out of vogue. I suspect your trainer saw you as someone who could utilise the info. appropriately.
What others did you have to know/demonstrate/get shown out of interest.
In reply to brt:
Think I knew all of them before hand but I think the ones used were...
Fig 8/Rewoven/On the bite
Overhand
Clove Hitch
Italian Hitch and how to tie it off
Bunny Ears
French Prussic
We where discouraged from using bowlines for group us as they can be tied wrong to easily. They didn't teach us an alpine butterfly, but have recently learnt it. Can you use it equalise anchors?
Think I knew all of them before hand but I think the ones used were...
Fig 8/Rewoven/On the bite
Overhand
Clove Hitch
Italian Hitch and how to tie it off
Bunny Ears
French Prussic
We where discouraged from using bowlines for group us as they can be tied wrong to easily. They didn't teach us an alpine butterfly, but have recently learnt it. Can you use it equalise anchors?
In reply to Duncan_S:
Re: alpine
You sure can, even rethread it, if you want to (pub trick really). Infact it's a very useful knot if you have more than a couple of anchors you want to rig off; by running the rope almost in series it can usually tick all the criteria that will no doubt have been emphasised on your course. Of course SPA don't like smart arses!!
I'm of the opinion that any knot can be tied wrong and to promote a healthy habit of checking is the best way to ensure a person's safety....but that's just me.
Re: alpine
You sure can, even rethread it, if you want to (pub trick really). Infact it's a very useful knot if you have more than a couple of anchors you want to rig off; by running the rope almost in series it can usually tick all the criteria that will no doubt have been emphasised on your course. Of course SPA don't like smart arses!!
I'm of the opinion that any knot can be tied wrong and to promote a healthy habit of checking is the best way to ensure a person's safety....but that's just me.
In reply to brt:
So, does anybody know the current "official position" on a round turn and 2 half hitches? It's got some uses for rigging but I seem to be the only person amongst my climbing mates who knows it.
So, does anybody know the current "official position" on a round turn and 2 half hitches? It's got some uses for rigging but I seem to be the only person amongst my climbing mates who knows it.
In reply to mike swann:
No, sorry. Don't often use it myself, prefer bowline or variant. I tend to use fisherman's bend in its place if I need a gripping type knot.
No, sorry. Don't often use it myself, prefer bowline or variant. I tend to use fisherman's bend in its place if I need a gripping type knot.
In reply to mike swann:
I don't know about official position, but that was the knot I always used to use to tie the main belay back into the waist krab in days of hemp waistlines. i.e think this came straight out of Blackshaw's book. With double ropes and harnesses this became too bulky and for years I used figure of 8s in the same way (still very bulky) - but with both knots that 'extra loop' was always very useful for a backup belay. Other belays tended to be a lashup with extra slings. Several years ago I moved over to using clove hitches, as I think most people do now. Seems to be deemed politically correct, and very easy to use/adjust.
I don't know about official position, but that was the knot I always used to use to tie the main belay back into the waist krab in days of hemp waistlines. i.e think this came straight out of Blackshaw's book. With double ropes and harnesses this became too bulky and for years I used figure of 8s in the same way (still very bulky) - but with both knots that 'extra loop' was always very useful for a backup belay. Other belays tended to be a lashup with extra slings. Several years ago I moved over to using clove hitches, as I think most people do now. Seems to be deemed politically correct, and very easy to use/adjust.
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