UKC

Jerry overgrades his routes for publicity – everyone knows that, obviously.

But can anyone tell me what this reputation is actually based on? I’ve listed the routes of his I can think of with their grades and the grades he gave them AFAIK, and it doesn’t really seem to bear this out.

Trad:
Messiah – E6 6c (JM) – possibly E7 (consensus)
Sole Doubt E5 6c (JM) – nails! (consensus)
Master’s Wall HXS (JM) – E7 6b
Psych ‘n’ Burn E6 6c (JM) – E6 6c
Renegade Master E9 7a (JM) – original line unrepeated and ‘stick hard’ according to my informant.
Samson E9 7b (JM) – can’t be true despite unrepeated status (Rockfax, consensus)
Sport:
Progress – 8c (JM originally) maybe 8c+ (JM, after others failed to repeat) – 8c (consensus)
Liquid Amber 8c+ (JM) – 8c+ (consensus)
Evolution 8c+ (JM) – still 8c+ even if Strong Steve did do five times in a day.
Revelations 8a (JM) – creeping ever upwards tho’ probably because of rock changing
(Could be wrong about these: obviously there are a lot more but I can’t think of them)
Bouldering:
Slingshot – maybe English 7b (JM quoted at the time though he says he didn’t say it) – recently repeated by Mo Overfield at some exalted V grade which makes 7b perfectly plausible.
Joker – don’t know what Jerry gave this, perhaps downgraded a bit once easier methods found, but obviously quite specific (eh, midgets?)
Ace – obviously overgraded, right? Even tho’ Malc hasn’t done it yet.

Bit trainspottery, I know, but can anyone supply some more convincing examples?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Both Progress and Evolution were downgraded from 8c+ at a time when 8c+ was a v big number and people in the UK cared about sport climbing. And then there were two short grit routes which were disputed because of their length and lack of danger when Parthian was still unrepeated and E9 on grit meant death.

Of course he did many fine routes which have stood the test of time. Gary Gibson didn't put bolts in every route that he did.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not to forget The Dominator in Yosemite.
V12, I think Jerry gave it back in 1993(?). Seen something like 4 repeats in nearly 10 years despite attempts by many.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Two quick things;

Didn't Adrian Berry put up Sole Doubt and didn't Mo Overfield put up Slingshot, as up until that point Jerry had never lead the route, only top roped it?

In reply to Dom Orsler: I agree why do people inssit on giving Jerry 1st ascent of Slingshot, he tred it, noone credits Johnny Dawes with joiont 1st ascent of Parthian because he TRed it 1st!!!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: As we're trainspotting....

Power, not Doubt.

Pretty sure that he originally gave Liquid Amber 8c.

As for The Joker, I remember him being quoted as saying that it was at least as hard as Dominator, which he and Mr Moon reckoned was Font 8b (and then Fred Nicole did it, reckoning Font 8a+).

When Moon repeated The Joker, OTE quoted him as saying it was 8a, and that the direct start (i.e. The Ace) would also go at 8a (though he didn't do it).

But as you say, if Mr Smith hasn't done it yet.....

In reply to Dom Orsler:

Correct about Soul Doubt - Sole Power was the expression I was looking for. Also correct imho about Slingshot, but I've heard the grade JM gave it cited against him.

Tom - E9 can't NECESSARILY mean death, can it: there must be a point at which it just means bloody hard. I'd say the jury's still out on whether Samson and RM direct are that hard or not. I didn't know Evolution had been downgraded. Anyway, do I gather that you would say this reputation only dates from 1996 or so?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I agree about the E9 thing.(it does not have to be a chop route)

Wasnt hubble given E9 7b by someone in a guide????, you arnt going to die on that are you??/

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I suppose people accept Jerry as the Slingshot FA because it's really - so far - a boulder problem not a route. After all one day it will go to the top of the crag and then there will be a route and MO won't be the FA of that either. Not that TRed boulder problems count either.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Wasn't Seb Grieve looking at this line? I remember something about that at the time Mo's ascent was in the magazines.

In reply to anonymouse:

I was reliably told at the time that Seb was trying this line (Slingshot/Slide show link-up) about 3 years ago. He reckoned about E10, although I can't see it myself as the start is a boulder problem and Slide Show is E5 6c as it stands, although maybe he was going for Slide Show without the side-runners. I think the main reason he couldn't do it was that he....erm, couldn't do it! Well, Slingshot at least.

As to Slingshot's grade of V13, who knows? Looking at at it looks a lot easier than that, but looks can be deceptive. Maybe I'll try it one day...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I think E grades work for danger and to an extent for sustained better protected routes. For high ball boulder problem type routes they seem less effective so wouldn't he have been better giving Samson a font or v grade. People might ask if Samson is E9 then how can Careless Torque be only E6. I'm sure they'd both just get V grades in the States.

In reply to Ian Patterson: quite a few problems on grit are comparable to stateside boulder problems. Anyone remeber Love Arete or something similar, near to the Lesbian Love Grotto at Hueco V0+ or something similar and about 30' feet of climbing with the crux at the top.

Probably E2 5a.

But lets not forget decking from 20' hurts just as much regardless of whether the climb is V3 or HVS.

In reply to L'aplat:


I agree but it seems it me very difficult to judge an accurate E grade on these type of routes (especially if the landing is acceptable and you've got a mat) - what grade would give e.g. NTBA (HVS, E1, E2 ?), Tierdrop (E2,E3,E4,E5)

In reply to Ian Patterson: In my now sadley lost stanage guide NTBTA was HVS 5c which though perhaps a bit stiff for 'technical' grade is about right. This was a regular solo when I was establishing myself as an E1 leader and is soft for E1, lets face it the holds get bigger and better as you get higher.

Tierdrop is a pig and hard to grade technically but E2 6b would seem about right. lets face it your feet are only about 6' off the deck on the crux and the top out isn't exactly desperate.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You start a grading thread...

Post '96 yes. Still, I wouldn't say it's much of a rep as it's based on a few routes done at a certain time (which is obviously what you're pointing out) and overwhelmingly not what JM is known for (i.e. being the UK's top modern climber). Not like other reps (check out the photo caption in the latest Climber - classic).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Just to clear up the sport routes grades. Jerry gave progress 8c+- since downgraded to 8c. He gave Liquid Amber 8c and it is still given 8c, though top end. Evolution was given 8c+ and is now 8c, Revelations was given 8a+ but is now prob 8b. Thats trainspotting for you!

What the b'jesus is AFAIK?

Also, what is IMHO, which also seems to pop up regularly on this forum?

There are a few others...

In reply to Jo Bertalot:

In My Honest Opinion

In reply to Jo Bertalot:

As far as I know.

G

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I always thought that Jerry Moffat's reputation was based on doing well in World Cup events (ie: competition climber) as much as routes or bouldering.
Some routes and boulder problems seem to be hard for the time. Weather he overgrades or not, who's to say, but he's not doing too bad for an old codger.

In reply to MadBadger:

Re IMHO : I thought it meant In My Humble Opinion, and since there is already trainspottery on this thread, noone will mind if I suggest that an opinion can be neither honest nor dishonest. It's what you think, cack or not.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
You missed out Seans Roof which was downgraded from 8c to 8b+. That said I wouldn't agree with those that say he is know for overgrading, it isn't, afterall, an exact science.

Another Trainspotter

In reply to Tyler:

Did he do that? I always thought that was - err, Sean. Live and learn.

It occurs to me, actually, that it must be much easier to overgrade sport routes. Usually you're working them on your own, and life being what it is, chances are you haven't got the most efficient sequence, and when that emerges, the grade'll go down. With trad routes (well LGP-type trad routes anyway) or boulder problems, other people are trying them too, so chances are the one who succeeds will be the one who tackles it in the most efficient manner.

I have an idea Steve Lewis probably said that aeons ago.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

what about in Colorado - 2nd ascent (he claimed it was the 1st) of Deadline - he called it 14a/b (first ascencionist did not grade it) - it is now called 13 c/d after 5 or so ascents.

also Crank It - he called it 14a - now 13c.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I think the best thing would be to go out and climb all these routes and make an informed opinion as not that many can on this subject, if this is not an option then perhaps it is not really worth getting too concerned over. Might want to use a crash mat though.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Jerry overgrades his routes for publicity - everyone knows that, obviously. Quite obviously, you have lead them all - ground up to make such a stupid statement...

In reply to Dennis |M: Read the ever mysterious Mister Cox's post again, carefully this time...