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Manchester Climbing Centre - It promised so much

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 Daz H 19 Aug 2005
Now that the initial novelty and enthusiasm has receded about Manchester finally having it's own wall, am I the only one who is now beginning to think that it's not half as good as it should be?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great place, but there's one big problem (IMO) - the climbing.

Basically, the routes and the routesetting are rubbish. Not only are the routes not changed often enough (some have been up since it opened), but they seem to have had no imagination put into them whatsoever, resulting in a load of routes which generally consist of straightforward cranking where the only means of varying the difficulty is by putting some gnarly/awkward stopper move at two thirds height, or by just slapping on a load of slopers at the top. (Lessons could be learnt from Warrington, where they somehow manage to set routes which are hard without resorting to stopper moves or a multitude of unclimbable slopers)

Also, where are the 6c's? There seems to be a multitude of routes up to 6b/6b+, and a load at 7a or above (some of which I bet never get climbed), but virtually no 6c(+)'s.
And while I'm on the subject, the grading seems to be wildly inconsistent between different sections of the wall (different routesetters?).

Sorry if this comes across as a bit of a rant, (it's not meant to be), as I still think the place is great, but I feel it could be an awful lot better, for not that much effort.

(and before anyone asks, yes, I have made these comments to some of the staff and in the suggestions book).
little_jo 19 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H: So your saying the 50 routes that Jamie Cassidy set are crap (he incidentally sets the great routes at Awesome walls)
Maybe you need to offer to help route set for them?
OP Daz H 19 Aug 2005
In reply to little_jo:
> (In reply to Daz H) So your saying the 50 routes that Jamie Cassidy set are crap (he incidentally sets the great routes at Awesome walls)
> Maybe you need to offer to help route set for them?

Well the last thing I want to do is offend Jamie Cassidy (I didn't realise this was a taboo subject), but yes, I think a lot of the routes are crap (and some of them are really good). Maybe it's just me, and maybe familiarity is breeding boredom (hence my point about how often they're changed) in me, but there are very few (maybe two or three) routes where after doing them, I think I'd like to do them again.

And no, I'm not a routesetter, so I wouldn't presume to dictate to someone who is. But I do think it's possible to offer some constructive criticism (which is what I'm trying to do, if in a not very articulate way), or comments on the subject.
 MeMeMe 19 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H:

They probably haven't changed the routes much because it's summer and so fewer people are climbing indoors.
Usually walls change routes much more frequently in the winter season when people are climbing there more frequently.

I can't say I thought the quality of the routes were particularly good/bad, except for some of the routes on the slab in the middle back left (if that makes sense) that I thought were really good.
Tim Gardener 19 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H: Hey, Percy's available for rent (at least I think thats what was meant when the weasle called him a rent boy) and as the song goes 'Nobody does it beter ....'
OP Daz H 19 Aug 2005
In reply to MeMeMe:
> (In reply to Daz H)
>
> They probably haven't changed the routes much because it's summer and so fewer people are climbing indoors.

Well, yes. But it still seems busy enough to justify changing a couple of the routes now and again.


little_jo 19 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H:
1st of september for 1 week the whole wall will be route set for the Autumn season.
Also the new bouldering section in the parsonage is moveing along now (expected completion 25th Sept.
Work on the new end wall and left side of the current boulder area starts on the first of September.
The result will be 400 sq metres of new climbing.
Watch this space.
OP Daz H 19 Aug 2005
In reply to little_jo:

Can you make sure all the holds are tightened properly so there aren't any spinners
 Ian Patterson 19 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H:

I've certainly enjoyed the climbing on the routes on the big wall and think they are pretty well set. Would agree that there has seemed to be a bit of a gap in 6c - 7a grade set.

BTW the 7a and above routes do get climbed and while my first thought was that the the upper part of the big wall could have been a bit steeper it does make a change to a lot of walls which are steeper and the fact that you can hang in for a long time gives more of crag type pump. We will be planning to visit regularly again this winter if there continues to be a good range of routes.
Pussycat 21 Aug 2005
In reply to little_jo:

I'm rather a timid climber/boulderer. Will there be more routes in the V0 grade (or easier preferably).

Keep up the good work, I love the wall, and the muffins and cappucino !!!
mac_climb 21 Aug 2005
In reply to Pussycat: How many spinners do you come across in the manchester wall? more than 1 evry time you visist it is shitly set. But at least the routesetter is not making the routes too reachy, a number 1 routesetting mistake
In reply to Daz H: dear, dear, it's just training isn't it for the great outdoors?
 MPL 22 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H: I can't help but think that you're being very selfish and short-sighted with your coments. Like you say, Manchester had been waiting for a wall for far too long, and when someone manages to build one, all you can do is pick fault? As someone who climbs at Manchester regularly, I can't think of a route that has been there since the opening, apart from perhaps in the beginner's section, which gives new climbers a chance to check their progress by repeating these at a later date. As for the grading, it would be far too easy to get into a debate about how subjective it is (and in my humble opinion 6c+ is the devil's grade anyway, 6c straight to 7a please MCC!).
You say that the routesetting at Manchester is rubbish, and you're entitled to think that (although you openly admit that you don't know how to practically 'improve' it), next time you go to another wall, have a look at the number of diferent types and brands of holds used; you'll probably find that they are all similar, so it's no wonder there's no stopper moves, because you're so used to pulling the same holds that when you reach the crux (Stopper), you hardly even notice it! As for slapping for slopers at the top of climbs, ever been to Stanage/Caley/Wimberry/Roaches etc, etc?
Another thing, if the routes were changed every fortnight or so, what would it be like for the people who'd been trying, but failed, a route the previous week, only to find it gone the next?
All I'm saying is that there are loads of views to take about any wall (most of which are more positive and practically constructive than yours) but I just think it's great that we can have such a good facility in Manchester.
 Sheila 22 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H:
I climb at the manchester wall alot and have to agree that the routes don't seem to change often enough, and there seems to be some inconsistency in the 5+ routes - there are some that seem harder than some 6a's.

I think it may always be a good idea to try and climb at several different walls, depending on what you want to work on...there isn't much in the way of overhaning top rope routes at manchester, which is what the warrington wall is good for.

Sheila
 MeMeMe 22 Aug 2005
In reply to Sheila:

> I think it may always be a good idea to try and climb at several different walls, depending on what you want to work on...there isn't much in the way of overhaning top rope routes at manchester, which is what the warrington wall is good for.
>

Over hanging top-ropes are a pain in the ass because to stop the swing you have to re-clip them again on the way down and you can bet somebody will either forget, not understand that, or just be too pumped to manage it.

Why not just lead?
If you are on the overhangs then you should be fine leading, or if you are going to fall off then an overhanging wall is a good place to do it since you'll be falling into space!

But yeah, going to different walls is a good thing, the same one gets pretty dull after a while anyway.
OP Daz H 24 Aug 2005
In reply to hairy monkey:

I don't see what's selfish and short-sighted about offering some criticism. Like I said, I think the place is great and I'm glad we finally have a wall in Manc, but I think it could be an awful lot better. If you want constructive suggestions, then how about (I thought I'd made these obvious, but if you need them spelling out..):

1. More routes of a sustained nature, where success doesn't depend on whether you can do one particular move, but more on building up endurance and fitness. Like someone else said, it's training for the outdoors, so you should be able to improve on a route without having to resort to months of bouldering just to build up the strength to do one particular move.
2. More varied climbing on the routes. Cranking vertically from hold to hold in straight line is all very well, but doesn't hold the attention for very long.
3. More regular changes to the routes. MCC appears to have a policy of blitzing the whole wall at once. I'd suggest changing the routes on particular lines on a rotation system, rather than all at once.
4. More routes in the mid-grades. There is a distinct lack of routes at 6c/+, which means that anyone operating at about 6b level must jump up to 7a if they want to climb anything harder, which will invariably lead to people dogging routes.

Right, that's it. If said all I have to on the matter. Sorry if I've offended anyone or p*ssed anyone off, as that wasn't my intention, but I spend rather a lot of money in that place so feel I have the right to suggest some changes to make it better. And surely that's better than just p*ssing off to another wall without saying anything.
Hotbad Peteel 24 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H:

From talking to the staff at MCC i think they'd agree with some of what you say. The bouldering is a bit too hard and its being redone a tthe end of august. The plan is to have totally non elitist bouldering downstairs so people can actually get started with bouldering training (its too big a gap at the moment, but nwf and awesome are the same). There sorting out their route setting and getting in the best they can find which will be fantastic. Theres also going to be a new bouldering training room so theres a seperate area for hard and easy bouldering in the style of boulder uk. that should be a big improvement as theres very few easy problems there at the moment. All this stuff gets put in the comments book too but i'm not sure where its gone lately.
p
OP Daz H 24 Aug 2005
In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
> (In reply to Daz H)

That's a good idea about the bouldering. My girlfriend is a beginner and she'd like to give bouldering a go in order to get stronger but feels a bit intimidated by all the "bare chested blokes" hanging around the bouldering section.

Hotbad Peteel 24 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H:

yeah I think thats why there doing it. I'm one of the bare chested boulderers there btw. the spotlights are so bloomin hot oin there it gets pretty disgusting climbing with a shirt on. The whole bouldering walls being stripped and redone at end of august with a proper spread of grades. The guys they;'ve got setting at the moment don't really know the difference between v0 and v4. Some of the new ones will hopefully be mine though so you'll be able to whinge at me instead (i wanted to see easy stuff so i offered to set them)
p
Hotbad Peteel 24 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H:

btw, i dont think i've met an egotistical boulderer there yet. Everyones pretty chilled out, just overheating.
p
OP Daz H 24 Aug 2005
In reply to Hotbad Peteel:
> (In reply to Daz H)
>
> btw, i dont think i've met an egotistical boulderer there yet. Everyones pretty chilled out, just overheating.
> p

Yeah I know. I've tried to expain to the GF that no one will think any less of her for falling off a V0, but she get's quite self-conscious when she thinks people are watching her climb.

Hotbad Peteel 24 Aug 2005
In reply to Daz H:

the amount of people failing to climb the easiest stuff at manc is an embarressment in my opinion. Next time your in say hi if you see me. I look like my profile pic
p
 Scotti 01 Sep 2005
Only been once, but thought the place was great. S'pose anything gets boring when you go enough and have had a crack at all the routes. For me though it was well setup, and well run.
 phatlad 01 Sep 2005
Thought the wall did promise a lot, but wasn't in truth disappointed. Still think the grading needs to settle down as it's a bit all over the place (but what wall isn't really) "vote a grade" would be the way forward.
Lightin could do with being sorted, and it's a wee bit of a shame that more wasn't done with the space they had. Routes seemed fine to me in general, good variety and plenty of interest. Some of the longer ones maybe not so interestin, but hey it's 20m whaddya want.
On the whole a good wall IMO and good to see JD swanning about offering helpful hints from time to time
"Come on you can pull on that for christ's sake!"
Routes changed more often than the foundry so no whingin from me
 JDDD 01 Sep 2005
I haven't been to the wall since spring, but they didn't do much route setting prior to that and I do get p*ssed off if routes stay the same all the time. I also agree that some of the 6as were a bit soft touch. However, I am sure this will be sorted out in time. I was speaking to JD and it is his wish to have a system whereby they keep a record of your climbing ability. As you use the wall, they will be able to see what grades the average climber climbs at and then set the wall accordingly. As he said "There is no point setting a load of 7b+ routes if 6a climbers keep turning up." However, I think such a system is a little way off yet.
In reply to little_jo:
Beg to differ, I don't think the routes at awesome are excellent at all. Warrington has far better routes, but the only problem is it's always seemed packed when I am there, and there is a bit of a clique that seem to dominate teh back two walls where the harder routes are.
 CJD 01 Sep 2005
In reply to Jon Dittman:
> I was speaking to JD and it is his wish to have a system whereby they keep a record of your climbing ability. As you use the wall, they will be able to see what grades the average climber climbs at and then set the wall accordingly. As he said "There is no point setting a load of 7b+ routes if 6a climbers keep turning up." However, I think such a system is a little way off yet.

that sounds like a really good idea. I don't know if other walls pay attention to these forums, but after lots of grumbling on here last year, there seem to be more lower-grade routes at Leeds now, which will (hopefully) mean that climbers are spread more easily through the centre.

As to what's happening at Huddersfield at the moment... 'plummeting downhill rapidly' would be a good term for it. routes changed so that there's a yellow route and a cream route (which both end up looking the same colour) on the same rope... routes changed with no reference to what they are, and no opportunity for people to offer their suggestions... most disappointing. At least the staff at MCC sound like they're interested in feedback.

 JDDD 02 Sep 2005
In reply to CJD:
> routes changed so that there's a yellow route and a cream route (which both end up looking the same colour) on the same rope... routes changed with no reference to what they are, and no opportunity for people to offer their suggestions... most disappointing. At least the staff at MCC sound like they're interested in feedback.

I hate that! Especially if you get a yellow route and then a yellow / green swirls route. Once covered in chalk, the holds look identical!
 phatlad 02 Sep 2005
In reply to nicholas Barrowclough:
That's what p**sed me off about the wall (warrington) 2. there seem to be a bunch of folk top roping at the back and some of us want to lead those routes.
And it was chuffing hot in their!!!

 neilh 02 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H:

I have only been once,and I will not be in a rush to go back ......for a bit

I was disappointed after all the hype.

IMHO it takes a year or two before a new wall settles down and find's it's feet in terms of route setting etc. It's just to new at the moment, and I'm sure it will be ok after one more winter season.
 MPL 05 Sep 2005
In reply to neilh: I've just been down to Manchester Wall, and they seem to be going all-out with the route setting. When I left Jamie Cassidy was half way through resetting the entire main lead wall.
 Jon Greengrass 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H: ha in swindon we have to wait to the last move for the crux, where you get a reach off a crap crimp or sloper to a big jug
 pdufus 05 Sep 2005
Anybody that thinks that the routes at Manchester are as good as those found in Sheffield Leeds Blackburn Liverpool must be mad. There are routes where if you miss out a hold or two it makes it easier....this is just a sign of a rush job. I understand this is a new build so the guys at the sharp end will be out of time and money so I will carry on supporting the place but wont say the routes are good when they are not, but will be patient while the place matures into the great place I’m sure it will be....in 5 years time!?
Hotbad Peteel 05 Sep 2005
In reply to pdufus:

the staff there know there not great and they know its because its a rush job. Its the main thing they talk about sorting out so I dont think you'll need to be waiting a full 5 years for decent routes. In fact i'd give it about 3 weeks for things to get noticeably better
p
 zoobizooretta 05 Sep 2005
In reply to pdufus:


get yourself down there and set some routes yourself, i'm sure they'd like to see how it's ment to be done.
 Jon Greengrass 06 Sep 2005
In reply to pdufus: holds you can miss out? they're so that short people can still do the moves, or they're red herrings to confuse you just like not every hold outdoors is needed.
OP Daz H 09 Sep 2005
In reply to hairy monkey:
> (In reply to neilh) I've just been down to Manchester Wall, and they seem to be going all-out with the route setting. When I left Jamie Cassidy was half way through resetting the entire main lead wall.

Well, I've tried all the new routes (apart from the red 6c, which I've been told by a number of people is closer to 7c) on the big lead wall (good effort on getting them up so quickly by the way!), and I can only come to the conclusion that Jamie Cassidy doesn't know the difference between a 6b and a 7a. Either that or he's deliberately taking the p*ss! So nothing's changed, on the main lead wall there are still a bunch of easy warm up routes and then the rest are 7a or higher, with nothing in between. Is this a hint that us mid-grade punters shouldn't be climbing on the big lead wall?


 haze01 09 Sep 2005
Pleased to hear the new bouldering is nearly ready, i'll be down to have a play soon :0)
 Ali 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H: On the high lead wall there are 6a+, 6bs and 6cs - what are you on about??
OP Daz H 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Ali:
> (In reply to Daz H) On the high lead wall there are 6a+, 6bs and 6cs - what are you on about??

Sandbagging. Extreme sandbagging. That's what I'm on about. It may say they're 6b but they're actually more like 7a. To be precise:

Pink & Yellow 6b+ in the middle: must be at least 7a, possibly 7a+
Red & white 6b on the right: Got to be 6c+, even 7a.
Red 6c on left: not climbed it but have been told by 3 separate people who've tried it that it's closer to 7c.

And just to compound the inconsistency, the new blue 6c on the stepped big wall is probably only about 6b (and an easy one at that).

squeek 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H:

Jamie Cassidy is a great route setter. If the grades are wrong, tell the people at the wall you think they're different and they can change them. Remember when you set routes you strip the wall then put all the holds up, doing this for 10s of leading routes in a day, then getting the grades perfectly right is asking a bit much in my opinion. Grades are just a consensus so just tell the wall and they should change the grades, it's not a comp where the difficulty has to be just right.

Jamie didn't set all the routes either so if there's complaints to be had against the routes they might not be his. In all these cases it's much better to talk to the wall than post it on the internet.

Of course, maybe you're just using the wrong sequence or are particularly weak/strong in certain areas.
OP Daz H 09 Sep 2005
In reply to squeek:
> (In reply to Daz H)
>
> Jamie Cassidy is a great route setter. If the grades are wrong, tell the people at the wall you think they're different and they can change them. Remember when you set routes you strip the wall then put all the holds up, doing this for 10s of leading routes in a day, then getting the grades perfectly right is asking a bit much in my opinion. Grades are just a consensus so just tell the wall and they should change the grades, it's not a comp where the difficulty has to be just right.
>
> Jamie didn't set all the routes either so if there's complaints to be had against the routes they might not be his. In all these cases it's much better to talk to the wall than post it on the internet.
>
> Of course, maybe you're just using the wrong sequence or are particularly weak/strong in certain areas.

Don't worry, the wall staff are adequately informed. I only mentioned Jamie Cassidy's name 'cos someone else said it was him who set the routes. If he didn't set them, then apologies to him for that. I am however a bit puzzled as to how a routesetter (whoever that may be) can't tell the difference between a 6b and a 7a. Do they not climb the routes they set?

As for posting comments on here, I don't see the problem, there are lots of people on here who go to MCC and also some staff, so it would seem as good a place as any.

squeek 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H:
>I am however a bit puzzled as to how a routesetter (whoever that may be) can't tell the difference between a 6b and a 7a. Do they not climb the routes they set?

Maybe not, if you took down all the holds for 20 routes, then set 20 new routes, which includes ascending the ropes with all the holds attached, and trying the moves whilst setting, what state would you be in afterwards? The route setters might climb all the routes afterwards in one, but then again they might not, I would expect not if they're setting lots of routes. They'll know the moves of the climb from when they were setting and give a rough grade. If a member of staff who worked at the wall, set a handful of problems then they would be more likely to climb them all and give a more accurate grade.

They're only grades anyway
OP Daz H 09 Sep 2005
In reply to squeek:
> (In reply to Daz H)

> Maybe not, if you took down all the holds for 20 routes, then set 20 new routes, which includes ascending the ropes with all the holds attached, and trying the moves whilst setting, what state would you be in afterwards? The route setters might climb all the routes afterwards in one, but then again they might not, I would expect not if they're setting lots of routes. They'll know the moves of the climb from when they were setting and give a rough grade. If a member of staff who worked at the wall, set a handful of problems then they would be more likely to climb them all and give a more accurate grade.

Well I find that quite surprising. So how is a wall manager supposed to direct the routesetters to put up routes of a certain grade? Or do the routesetters just get free reign?

> They're only grades anyway

I'm not bothered about the numbers, but when the routes at a wall are either so easy that you breeze up them or so hard that you have to dog them, with nothing in between it becomes a bit boring, and certainly isn't value for money. It's analogous to a gym only having light weights and really heavy weights, with nothing in between.

squeek 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H:

> Well I find that quite surprising. So how is a wall manager supposed to direct the routesetters to put up routes of a certain grade? Or do the routesetters just get free reign?

Doesn't really surprise me. A route setter wouldn't climb a route they'd put up decide it was 3 grades too hard, then re-rope up changing several holds, then repeat the process. Well I'd hope not anyway. They should know roughly how hard it is when they put it up. ie 7a-7b, 5-5+

Are the routes there good, despite the grades not being spot on?

I'm not a route setter and never have been so I don't know what they get told regarding setting.
OP Daz H 09 Sep 2005
In reply to squeek:
> (In reply to Daz H)
>
> [...]
>
> Doesn't really surprise me. A route setter wouldn't climb a route they'd put up decide it was 3 grades too hard, then re-rope up changing several holds, then repeat the process. Well I'd hope not anyway.

Why not? Isn't that what they're paid for?

>They should know roughly how hard it is when they put it up. ie 7a-7b, 5-5+

Exactly. Of course grades are subjective and I know it's difficult to instantly tell the difference between a 6b and a 6c for instance, but the difference between a 6b and 7a seems pretty obvious to me.

> Are the routes there good, despite the grades not being spot on?

They're mixed. There are some good ones, and other terrible ones (the new yellow and pink 6b+ springs to mind) which has an awful stopper move on slopers at 2/3rds height (after pretty hard climbing to start), and a really long reach off crimps at the top which I had to dyno.






 Gary Smith 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H:
In reply to Daz H:
A lot said on this topic by you is obviously an attempt to be helpful but I wonder what it is you're expecting from a climbing wall.
Having used all the walls in the NW for the last 18years and remembering nights at the YMCA in Lpool and the dungeon in Chester, I think you should be thanking your lucky stars.
NWF, Awesome, et al have all had periods of inconcistancey but we still used them. The walls are for training and you can use whatever is there. They are now, all far more of a social club than they used to be and have replaced many climbing club in this role.
Manchester will sort itself out. The guys there have the interest to do it, unlike municipal walls of the past. Willy waving about how much you spend there will hardly impress anyone.
A word of advice; try abstaining from a wall and get out where its free. JD and his colleagues won't drown in sorrow if you don't spend your fiver.
Route setters are like referees, easy to critisise but essential to the game. Try all out encouragement and you might find their numbers and therefor diversity increases.
Oh and as for 6c+!! give us a break.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OP Daz H 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Gary Smith:

FFS! All I'm trying to do is gauge people's opinion about the place and maybe offer some type constructive opinion myself. I'd hardly call that willywaving. What's wrong with just talking about the place? What's good, what's bad etc. Is that so wrong? I really don't understand this type of attitude.

I'm fully aware things used to be crap in the past compared to the facilities available now but that doesn't mean they can't be better. And that won't happen unless people are free to air their views. I mean, it's not like I'm suggesting some sort of boycott, quite the opposite in fact.
 Gary Smith 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H:
> (In reply to Gary Smith)
>
> FFS! All I'm trying to do is gauge people's opinion

You just got mine!
OP Daz H 09 Sep 2005
In reply to Gary Smith:
> (In reply to Daz H)
> [...]
>
> You just got mine!

And a very useful one at that. Shut up and stop moaning. How very British. You don't work for the NHS by any chance?

brian crawford 10 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H:

I kind of find that there are two grades in climbing. Climbs I can do (piss easy) and climbs I cannot do (rock hard ). I realise that when i can't do a problem it is impossible for me to grade it. How can you grade something if you can't climb the route?

From reading your posts you seem to be labelling everything route you can't climb as 7a and above, even if officially graded lower. Perhaps you can't climb at the standard you think you can? So when you have to dog a 6b you get pissed off and say it is obviously undergraded.
 MPL 10 Sep 2005
In reply to Daz H: sounds like Mr crawfords hit the nail on the head. a 6b climb does not make a 6b climber
In reply to brian crawford: To always. There may be one move you can't get but you know you can work on. Happens to me all the time on boulder problems and I usually get them in the end.
In reply to Richard Bradley: F knows where the To came from. Should say not.
OP Daz H 12 Sep 2005
In reply to brian crawford:
> (In reply to Daz H)
>
> From reading your posts you seem to be labelling everything route you can't climb as 7a and above, even if officially graded lower. Perhaps you can't climb at the standard you think you can? So when you have to dog a 6b you get pissed off and say it is obviously undergraded.

Well if it was just me who thought this I'd agree with you, but there were an awful lot of other people who thought the same.

Anyway, this has been done to death now so I'm not saying any more so that I don't sound like a moaning old codger. But for the record, I still think MCC is a great place, I'll still keep going there, and would encourage anyone else to do so as well.

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