UKC

Bit of a contentious title, I know, as anyone who climbs regularly at this grade will probably have done many of these. However they all offer brilliant climbing in out of the way (ish) places so hopefully someone will be inspired to do one of them and tell us about it. Apologies for the Welsh bias, its where I have done most of my climbing. No apologies whatsoever for the lack of grit routes, there's been far too much about it on here recently.

So in quality order.....

1) Hyndsight, Glyder Fach
How many times must I come on here and tell people what a brilliant route this is before someone pipes up and agrees with me. Probably the best single pitch trad route I have ever done, including all those on the Cromlech. The photo in the guide doesn't do it justice.

2) Mousetrap Direct, Moustrap Zawn, Gogarth
This isn't in the guide but investigation suggests it is the way JB originally did the route. Start behind the stance at the top of pitch one and pinch the quartz seam all the way to below the stance at the top of pitch two. No gear but absolutely brilliant. E4 5bc, sustained though.

3) Top Gear, Raven Crag Threshlwaite Cove, Lakes
Probably not as good as you might hope but included because the crag as a whole offers so much for those operating at this grade. Still pretty memorable and Running on Empty is fab here too.

4) Whoremistress, Geln Clova
I really wanted to include one of two other quality E4s I've done here, but embarassingly I can't remember their names! This will do though, bold in parts with a hard udgy, thrutchy, slappy crux over the buldge at the very top. The valley is well worth a visit though and gets better weather than the rest of the Gorms.

5) Katana, Holyhead Mountain
Foot for foot as good as anything on Gogarth, pumpy to the end and well protected.

6) Nagazaki Grooves, Great End Crag, Borrowdale
Not really an esoteric gem being 3 stars, close to the road in the Lakes' most popular valley. That said though I don't know many who have actually done it. Its only really any good for about 30 feet but the moves in this section are SO good the they make the whole route a classic.

7) Roc-Nest Monster, Scimitar Ridge
3 good pegs protect but didn't relly feel like a clip up, on "the Pass' best crag" (Steve Meyers). Great place to check out the arete of King Wad.

8) Ten Years After, Hodge Close
Really struggling to find rarely climbed routes now so I'll include one everyone has done. Bit run out don't you think?

9) Tangerine Dream, Anglezark
Must be struggling if I'm including stuff from Lancs.

10) Erm....somthing on slate maybe, or Trail of Tears...I know, the Pump....

Please climbers (Alan, Tom, Bob, Adam L, John Cox, Neil Foster etc) reply to this and restore my faith in Rocktalk as an (occassional) climbing forum.

In reply to Tyler:

Not a bad selection and the title isn't wrong. I've done a lot of E4s but only Nagasaki from your choice. Not even Ten Years After, I had too hard a time on Malice in Wonderland.

Two Peak routes to add to the list:

Police and Thieves, Dovedale
Great route in an impressive position with goo dgear when you need it. Most are just put off by the crowds of onlookers.

Kelly's Eye, Stoney
A fantastic single move with reasonable gear. Losing the battle against the ivy nowadays though.

Alan

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:

Maybe there has been too much talk about grit routes - but Peaches at Birchens is an awesome E4; hard and brilliant from start to finish.

errrrr, can't think of anymore at the mo.

Ok It's well known and got 3*, but Cream at Tremadog has got to be one of the best E4's in the country.

I would also put Star Wars at Pembroke in my top 10 of E4's

In reply to Paddles:
Can we have the rest of your top ten then please?

Cream is excellent and involves a lot of hard climbing the way it is described in the '89 guide book.

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
I've never done Malice in Wonderland but been told its very scary, more like Flashdance in Vivian quarry than E3.

Kellys Eye isn't in my On Peak Rock book so I will probably never do it (no point if I can't tick it anywhere!). I think many trad routes will become increasingly overgrowndirty, especially in the Lakes. I don't think this will be improved by removing stars from the guide book as everyone will end up doing HardClassi Extreme Rock ticks to be on the safe side. Lets face it, if people relied on personal recommendation alone then, from reading this site, only 3PS and Sloth would ever get done!

Anyway looks like you've got some routes to do this summer, only the first two are less than well protected, for my part I'll get on Police and Theives (esp as its one of my favourite Clash songs)

In reply to Tyler: Well done for using the forum to inform us of some rock climbs (lesser known ones at that) - there should be a lot more threads like this. I agree with Katana - one of the best routes I did last year (and I had a pretty good year). If it was on an inland crag, it would be hailed as a mega classic.

Other lesser known E4s that I thought were excellent -

Flash - Stennis Head
Olive Branch - Mowing Word
Portland Heights - Blacknor South (F7a)
Crooked Mile - Lower Sharpnose (although EVERYTHING here is underrated, even the three star routes)
Dark Night - Northcott Mouth (Very short, but very fine)
Pulses Unreal - Pentire Head
The Impending Gleam - Swanage

In reply to Tyler:

no guide books at work so 5 to start with:

poetry pink -rainbow slabs
The Tube -Back bowden
Savage God -Blackchurch
Vulture -Cilan head
Zukator -Tremadog


More once I've been home

hose

In reply to hoseyb: What about wellington crack at Ilkely

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
I'd have to add Central Wall at Kilnsey (although it's hardly unknown given that it's in Extreme Cock) - an excellent route and an interesting fall from just below the three breaks........


Which one is Police and Thieves? Is it the one to the right of both caves, or the one that goes between the two???

In reply to Tyler: Heres a few brilliant E4s - (E4 is their guidebook grade, lets not start another grade debate...)

Wings Of Unreason - Roaches
Cardinal's Treasure - Wharncliffe
Down To Earth - Bamford
High Flyer - Stanage North
The Strangler - Stanage Plantation

Sorry they seem to be all on grit.

Another Peak-centric list....

On Peak Limestone:-

Perspex, Chee Tor.
Quality climbing, clean, sustained and with no nasssty moves, given E3 in some guides. I only seconded it, but was really impressed. It's really quite good, even in the context of being surrounded by big name classics (its less polished than them too)

The man they love to hate, Left Celestial Twin (could be the right one, I always forget).
I always recommend this place. There aren't many routes on the crag, but all the ones I've done have been excellent. This gem climbs through an otherwise blank wall using the only feature around for miles then has an exciting crescendo climbing through a small bulge on flatties. No polish, no other climbers.

Colonel Bogey, Stoney M.
Alright, I haven't done this, but I've heard it's possibly the best (unknown) E4 at SM. Anyone??

Peak Grit:-

Autumn Wall, Wharncliffe.
Right up the middle of a steeper-than-it-looks face. Looks a doddle, but very few of the breaks take gear and/or are good holds. Much nicer rock than the rest of Wharncliffe. About a million times better than Banana Wall (soft E4 on the main crag) - harder too.

Wales:-

I always wanted to try that real big arete in the Moelwyns (on the back cover of the old Tremadog guide) Exterminating Angel was it??? Looks amazing.

In reply to TimB: I agree banana wall don't merit E4, at least not unless you are a short arse. Have you done Cardinals Treasure just to the left? its a cracker.

In reply to Tyler:

Well I've done numbers 3, 6, 8 & 9 so I'll have to take those out from my list. I still think that Ten Years After is E3 though! Also Boy Racer is probably better than Top Gear. For replacements how about:

The Skull, Cyrn Las: Failed on this so have some knowledge.

Blitzkrieg, Raven Thirlmere: Wild climbing out of the cave also taken by Gates of Delerium and Das Kapital.

High Noon, Caley: Sort of borderline E4/5 but looks brilliant and scary.

Deja Vu, Bosigran: incredibly bold looking climbing up an obvious line.

Bob

In reply to TimB:

Superb route but this is only E3. I have never seen it given E4 anywhere.


Agree. Another good one especially since it is a bit soft touch


I think you mean Crimson Cruiser. E5 and wortth it I'd say. Also not quite as good as it looks owing to the bloody great ledge on the left, halfway through the main climbing. There is an E4 to the right, Non-dairy Creamer but this is a bit over-rated, even when it had 2 stars.

Alan

In reply to Tyler: I interpret this as slightly obscure, but brilliant E4's that don't get a lot of traffic. Try the following
The Lizard: Total BodyWag (no 2nd ascent yet) International had maybe 4/5 ascents at most.
West Penwith The Adversery(about 4 ascents) The Hood (maybe 2 or 3 ascents)
I haven't doen Burnig Gold or The Baldest but they looked brilliant and are rarely climbed.

Carn Gowla must have a good selection

How about the Cassinni Division, first ascent last weekend by Mike Hammill, 45 mtres long with bold 6a smearing on the crux followed by a runout 5b head wall. Totally briliant but on an as yet un released crag!

In Wales Total Bull at Hydd Drem, Wailing Wall on Graig y Lyn. Can I have Sultans of Swing? I doubt may do that and it is totally excellent.

In reply to Bob:

Both good routes in the context of this thread, but perhaps the Skull is a bit too famous, and Blitzkrieg is a bit too hard. The Skull is pretty soft at E4 whereas Blitzkrieg is nails! Once you have done the hard crack there is the moss-covered slab to negotiate to the top of the crag.

Alan

Alan

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:
So which one is Police and Thieves?????

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:

Well not having done it (which I think is the point of this thread) I obviously am unable to comment. It is one of the few classic Lakes E4's, well known or otherwise, that I could come up with that I haven't already done. Similarly in Wales, forgot about Vulture on Cilan though:- good call.

One problem is grade creep, routes that I did years ago at E4 are now E5 so there could be some E3's out there that are now E4 and ripe for this thread.

Bob

In reply to Tyler: Bloody hell, I try and bask in the glory of the E4's I _have_ done.

Anyway soem I haven't which I would aspire to.

The Great Arete, in the Carnedd's
Dream Liberator, in Cornwall
Sixpence on Pavey Ark
The Cumbrian on Scafell
Fingerlicker [seconded with some distress!] tremadog
Nectar, Stanage
Resurection, Cromlech [lobbed from the top and never went't back]
Weasels rip my flesh, bumhowl buttres [just looks so good]

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:

Not really obscure but Roscolyn is an great spot for E4's - Electric Blue, Trail of Tears and Magellen's Wall (hard for grade?) are all excellent and you've also got an excellent set of E3's and a soft E5 (Warpath).

Haven't got the guide so can't remember the names but the Castle East has a couple of very worthwile Gibson E4's either side of a classic steep E2. (and of course the upgraded E3's on the castle are all excellent).

Ian

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:


I thought the thread title said 'Classic' which to my mind means famous, not obscure as some people seem to be posting.

In reply to Sloper:


Better pull your finger out as it is E5 though it has been soloed by Doug Shaw! He was meant to be seconding but untied and followed the end of the ropes at a respectful distance!

>Dream Liberator, in Cornwall
>Sixpence on Pavey Ark
Always thought that this was E5? Still can't find my new Langdale guide, does anyone know where it is?

>The Cumbrian on Scafell
Well Esk Buttress. Again commonly reckoned to be E5.

>Fingerlicker [seconded with some distress!] tremadog
>Nectar, Stanage
>Resurection, Cromlech [lobbed from the top and never went't back]
Get back there, it's brilliant!!
>Weasels rip my flesh, bumhowl buttres [just looks so good]
An excellent route, though there is some debate as to whether it is only E3 since a new way to do (I.e. avoid) the crux was found.

Bob

In reply to StuartM:
I did really mean obscure, classic was a reference to the qualitiy i.e. they would be classic if they were on a well known crag.

Cheers

In reply to Sloper:

Great Arete is fantastic, well protected but still scary.

First time I did Fingerlicker I had blood streaming down both arms, Ive done it 3 times since and still got the scars from it. Best route at tremagog IMO.

In reply to Bob: Grades, well there you go, still top routes though! by the way whoever said High Flyer is E4 is barking, even at E3 5b its a soft touch, more like E2. Which would you rather fall off soloing, the crux of Brown's Eliminate or HF?

In reply to anyone out there:
Hello? Can anyone hear me? I feel like the woman in the Fast Show.
Where does Police and Thieves go?

In reply to Tyler:
Well I am going to have a go at keeping in with the title i.e. ‘ never done’.
From how Tyler wrote his first post I get the impression this is a recommend list of things to go and do that you may not have done.

So here is my attempt.

YOUNG & EASY UNDER THE APPLE BOUGHS – Vivian.
Although this route looks rather scrappy, it is actually excellent and a brilliant way of passing the time when heading up to The Dervish for the 20th time to take another mate to do it. It’s neighbour Nostromo is also a very good route.

DRAGONSLAYER – Khyber Pass area of Dinorwic.
A fab route, admittedly on bolts but it still feels bold.

BOOK OF BRILLIANT THINGS – Seamstress alab, Dinorwic.
Great route and take a sky hook. You can secure the skyhook by using the peg below.

CARDIAC ARETE – Tremadog.
Old old guide cover shot. A hard route and getting to it can be just as hard. I once tried to contour along from Silly Arete. We had to give up after 3hrs of bushwacking, ankle twisting, insect biting hell by dropping down to the road rather than fighting back. We didn’t even make it halfway!
Go along the top from Silly Arete area.

THE SKULL – Cyrn Las.
I reckon a lot of people have infact done this but by the same reckoning imagine a few people have had this on their list for years. If you haven’t done it make the effort!

SUPERCHARGED – Lundy.
This route is a 3 star modern classic. It is hard, pumpy, technical and well protected. Do this route.

THE GOLDEN HANDSHAKE – Lundy.
The lower half of this route is superb all be it a little soft touch. Fulmars may be present!

SINGING WINDS – Swanage.
I only seconded this but it is a real Ruckle route. Surrounded by many mid grade classics – does it get over looked for things like Mother Africa and Freeborn Man?

AMANITA MASCURINA – Bristol.
OK OK this is Pat Littlejohn tick and it probably gets done but I did this during the foot and mouth restrictions and thoroughly enjoyed it. I can’t imagine Bristol is very high on peoples visit list but Amanita is a good route – do it and tell me different.

GRADUATION CEREMONY – Gogarth.
Possible that this does get done a lot. Two great pitches on Gogarths Main Cliff.

That’s my list without referring to guides.
Like the thread. Tyler I will make an effort to do ‘Hyndsight’.

Anyone done Wailing Wall?

High Flyer at Bamford – well if that is E4 my c#ck’s a kipper!

Back soon
Bob.

In reply to Anonymous:
God I hate it when I go anonymous!
Sorry.
Bob.

In reply to Andy Robinson:

I can hear you Andy.

Isn't it one of the two on the wall to the right of both caves?

There's Police and Thieves, and The Umpire (E3). One goes near the edge of the cave and the other goes straight up. They share a start, I haven't done either, oooo that doesn't help does it.

In reply to Anonymous: There IS no high flyer at bamford, theres one at burbage which is given E3 5b and theres one at stanage north which is given E4 6a.

In reply to whoever it was, i never said high flyer (stanage) was worth E4, i said it has a guidebook grade of E4. ANyway it is irrelevent which (BE or HF) i would rather fall off soloing since the crux of brown's elliminate is well protected and hardly 5b, whereas HF has a low 6a crux and a high 5c crux.

In reply to TimB:

Police and Thieves takes the leftwards line skirting the edge of the cave and then straight up - it is excellent and well described in the guide as hard moves interspersed with good holds and gear and low in the grade. Just to care for lose rock at the top (especially with crowds that are likely to be watching).

While you're in Dovedale Caeser on Tissington Spires is another good E4.

In reply to TimB and Ian Patterson:
Splendid, cheers Tim!

So The Umpire is the one that goes straight up then? I seem to recall having done that a few times and thinking it was O.K.

So what's the one that goes between the two caves?

In reply to Anonymous:

Did Graduation Ceremony years ago, good route.

I have done Wailing Wall at Craig Y Llyn. The route looks dirty from below but the actual line is clean. The crux wall is at the top and isn't well protected but it gets easier once you have committed to the first couple of moves. The rest of the route is top end E2.

Bob

In reply to Ian Patterson: Wall of the Worlds at Swanage looks awsome and is on our tick list this year (Gerry's lead!) and any of the great E4's at Sharpnose too.

In reply to Bob:
Yes I took it as never done, as I have only seconded one (on the verge-back bowden ?a softy) and reversed all the way from the crux on another (hot ice -chudleigh) generally they look scary.

Biggest sand bagging = the plj guide misprints bones chimney (brean down)as E4 4c. I almost had a go!!


hose

In reply to Tyler:

Can we do some Alpine ones? Is E4 6c/7a French?

In reply to hoseyb:
Jesus, anything at Brean is literally a sand bag - it gets quite tedious wiping the sand off every hold.
Much better to forget the climbing and take along a golf club and tw*t balls down the huge beach........

In reply to Tyler:

These days I am sure if you go to the mountain crags that the heavily starred routes will not appear well used.

Thinking about the best E4s I have ever done I would go for:

Balas (Kilnsey)
Gates of Delerium (Raven Crag) better than The Cumbrian IMHO
Apocalypse (Chee Tor) better than Mortlocks IMHO

Colonel Bogey is good but there is a reason why it doesn't get 3 stars, Millionaire Touch and Oliver are much better.

Incidentally in Stoney Quarry I think Emotional Rescue is underrated; whilst some of the rock could be better it is "The Right Wall" of the Peak (taking a less wandering line than the Cromlech RW) - 3STARS deffinitiely!

In reply to Al Evans:

<innocently> You mean like Fay?

In reply to Simon Cox:

I'd agree about Apocalypse, climbed in one pitch its a brilliant pitch one of the best (maybe THE best) limestone E4's in the peak.

In reply to Simon Cox:

Thought that the first two had now been upgraded to E5 though both were E4 when I did them. Agree that Gates is probably better than the Cumbrian as the latter is very unbalanced whereas Gates just keeps coming at you!

One of the E4's I still really fancy doing is Mephisto on Scafell which takes the arete to the right of Burning Bridges.

Bob

In reply to Tyler:

A quality E4 that I don't think has had (that) many ascents is:

Tapestry on Pillar. F**king quality.

Another cracker is:

Ape Factor on Sandbed Ghyll.

Coming to think about it, how about:

Flying Blind on Neckband.

In reply to Tyler:

>Please climbers (Alan, Tom, Bob, Adam L, John Cox, Neil Foster etc) reply to this<

Oh, the tact! Just what I needed. Not that I’m not flattered.

I haven’t done that many non-grit E4s and I don’t know as I’ve done any that you’d call obscure, so some of these are aspirational, and some of them are not that obscure but I enjoyed them so much I’ve included them anyway.

Night Rider, Fair Head. Gobsmacking line – a groove cutting through roofs. Mr Lincoln will I hope be doing the necessary research on his present Ireland trip.

Marlene, Nesscliffe. Scary, but brilliant.

Diamond Life, Lundy. Not that unsung, but similar to and pretty much as good as the main pitch of Widespread OOF without risking death on the first pitch.

Heartsong, Pavey Ark. Next door to the classic but neglected Fallen Angel, an amusing finger crack which is harder than it looks. Stretching the limit of the grade (i.e. think E6).

Ramshaw Crack, Ramshaw. The best route of its kind (brutal struggling, in case you don’t know) on grit. Anyone who calls themselves a gritstone E4+ leader and hasn’t done this is a woofter.

Torture, Dartmoor. A Ramshaw Crack for the southerners, and also stick hard for E4 (Plymouth grades).

Jack of Shadows, Llanberis slate. OK, three stars, but a lot less traffic than the usual mid-grade slate canon. This is probably because a good deal of the would-be traffic turns back from the crux, which is desperate – 6a my aunt’s fanny.

Sacred Idol, Craig (er, sorry forgotten the name. Where Nectarine Run is. Craig Bach, maybe?). Brilliant line: a friend tells me it’s excellent but desperate for the grade.

White Rhino Tea, Torbay. Devon’s Freeborn Man.

The Pusher Man, Lleyn. A great adventure, or so I’m told, ‘a sort of E4 Fantan B’.

And one for luck, Critic’s Choice, Avon. Short, bold, fingery testpiece with a bolt just when things start to get serious. Not everyone’s cup of tea but I liked it.

Oh and of course Topaz at Stanage. Not quite as easy as it looks.

Anyone else think the nearby Sai Dancing (E3) was harder than Katana?

I'm afraid I reckon Bob's c*ck's a kipper. I thought High Flyer (Stanage N) was probably worth E4.

In reply to Tyler: Probably everyone has done Edge Hog in Glen Nevis (soft touch but spectacular) How many have done Walter Wall just to the left of it. Brilliant and much more meaty at E4 6a.

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

Done both of them and agree that Walter Wall is somewhat harder. Did Edgehog the same day as Stairway to Heaven on Blaven: fantastic route.

Bob

In reply to Dave Musgrove: Anybody mentioned Eclipse on Pavey? Tumble? Is there a better E4 than Tumble?

Or is it just that everyone on earth has done them so they don't count?

In reply to EdwardS:

Done the first and last of those three but ape factor hadn't been done the only time I went to Sandbed Gill. The Straights of Messina on Pillar would be a classic if only the top crack wasn't quite so brittle.

Bob

In reply to Bob and EdwardS:

Does Tapestry ever get clean enough to be enjoyable?

The one time I was up at Pillar we did some supposed 3* E2 to the left, which was so overgrown and grotty we legged it round to the sunny side and did Gondor instead of having a look at Tapestry.

My impression of that side of Pillar was that the routes need a proper re-clean before they're enjoyable. Either lots of traffic (unlikely) or a public-spirited abseiler with a brush.

In reply to TimB:

From what I can remember, Tapestry is out of any drainage line so build of moss etc should be fairly slow. Mind you we did it a couple of years after it was first done so it was still fairly clean. What was the E2? The only one that I can think of around there is Black Widow. There is also Sheol but that is really just the first pitch up the jagged crack.

In the middle of summer ALL of Pillar gets the sun, if you time it right you can do a route on the east face of high man in the morning sun then a route on Shamrock then move round to the west face for a route there then the north face gets the late evening sun (It also gets the early morning sun).

Bob

In reply to Bob:

'if you time it right'

That would be code for 'if you get up horribly early', I imagine?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Well before 0600

Bob

In reply: Don't seem to have seen a menition of either
Freakout - Glencoe (a well protected pump)or
America - Carn Gowla (not a well protected pump)

In reply to Bob:

The E2 was called "Cunning Stunts"

Go to Google groups and do a search on
"pillar lake district uk.rec.climbing cunning stunts"
for the trouble I got into for suggesting that Lakes mountain routes should be cleaned off!

Also..
>the north face gets the late evening sun (It also gets the early morning sun).

Makes it sound like you've been benighted there!!! Mind you, probably not a hardship for a man who considers before 0600 to be 'reasonable early'

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Torture is a route my devon mate is well chuffed about getting up (one teeny rest he assures me) but he is plymouth born and bred (right down to the hairy chest and male pattern baldeness)


hose

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
'I'm afraid I reckon Bob's c*ck's a kipper. I thought High Flyer (Stanage N) was probably worth E4.' - whoops.
Making a fool of myself here.
Yep, HF at Stanage is E4 - I have no prob with that.
What my scrambled brain was thinking of is Down to Earth at Bamford - my original comment stands.
bob.

In reply to Tyler:

Anyone done Dark Entries at Nares head?

In reply to andy:

Jeez Eclipse takes me back, I seconded Pat Mcvey on that when I was 17 (I think), its deffinitely a cracker but not that long I recall, but the position is excellent...

Tumble is delightful (only E3?) but I remeber it having a a single pitch feel about it. I reckon Holocaust is better.

Gates of Delerium is just fantastic, two real quality pitches. I did it when I felt well on form with Paul. I arrived at the bottom, thought the whole crag looked like a slab, and dived stright onto GOD; very quickly I was getting pumped on the traverse with less gear than a coward like me requires...

Probably top of my E4's to do in the Lakes would be Blitzkreig.

Cheers,

In reply to mark:

Agree, great route.

Spacewalk E4 - a soft touch (!)

In reply to Alan James, ROCKFAX:

"Kelly's Eye, Stoney: A fantastic single move with reasonable gear."

I recall I almost decked out when I fell off the crux, and I thanked my partner for good belaying rather than falling asleep....

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

Anyone done Fallen Angel on Pavey. I have to admit to failing on this one (twice). Bloomin dirty smears...

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

It was my first E4!! My right leg kept collapsing on the walk back down.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

It's weird that - why did it go up to E5? It would be E5 in N Wales of course, but by Lakes standards it's got to be E4. Superb pitch and not as dirty as it looks

In reply to TimB:

Grew up on a farm see? And no I have never been benighted there or indeed anywhere in the UK. Now there's a challenge to my luck!

Bob

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

You're just trying to cheer me up! I've done it, and it was wet, too.

Well, when I say I've done it, what I mean is that I've done most of it. I struggled up the main pitch. My belayer, who was suffering horribly from midges, then said that he wasn't going to play and that I would have to do the top pitch as well in one and then abseil. The midges were also ghastly on the various rest spots, so I charged on up without really stopping, this pitch being even wetter and also pretty mossy, until I arrived in the final groove. There was a good gear placement, but also an obvious handjam and then the top. For some reason I was feeling a little tired, so I thought I'd just get on with it. I reached up, put my hand into the handjam, and the flake I was jamming behind moved perceptibly outwards and downwards (this being a piece of rock about three feet by a foot by four inches.) So, far from supporting me as I had planned, my hand-jam was all of a sudden only useful for supporting the cliff.

After an unpleasant period of indecision, pitiless assault by midges and trying to remember where my last gear was, I decided that I would try to remove my hand and hope for the best. I eased it out very slowly, and nothing happened. I thought it would be prudent to step back down the groove a little and review the situation, but just as I reached that decision there was a happening with one of my feet, and the next thing I knew I was halfway down Heartsong. Bloomin dirty smears, in fact.

We did Shelter from the Storm (earlier) the same day, I recall. Anyone done that? Excellent - reminiscent of Foil.

In reply to bob smith: incidentally i did Down To Earth this weekend, i thought never E4, maybe E2/3? i don't know, it was a bit gravelly, but what a wicked shaped arete!

In reply to daveP:

Never E4, I agree. Presumably given that before small friends, but it's generous even as a solo. With gear I'd say E2 - easier than Foord's Folly, for example.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

The North Wales crowd kept complaining about not being able to get up routes at a lower grade than they were climbing back at base so the Lakes' lads compromised by upgrading just a single grade rather than the two asked for. )

Bob

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Where is Shelter from the Storm?

Bob

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

What about that E4 arete to the right of Brothers Buttress up on Kinder - "The Les Dawson Show" (name of entertainer possibly misremembered) Anyone done that?

I saw some bloke headpoint it and it looked really good.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: certainly easier than ontos - couldn't get any purchase from those holds on saturday, but its was f*cking hot though - one for the winter i think......

In reply to TimB: my mate dogged the les dawson show and still didn't do it - i was belaying and it looked to have a lot of climbing in it for E4, but hey its safe as houses so fair is fair.

In reply to daveP:

Damned right! There was a thread recently on what the easiest route you've ever failed on in good conditions was. Mr Lincoln had the temerity to say his was Ontos. Disregarding the truth of that assertion, my point is that even a mighty man like Adam is prepared to allow failure on it to enter the public domain - and that was on a crisp winter's day. I think some other posters on this thread might be prepared to agree with you as well.

Bob - Shelter from the Storm is on that little buttress below and across the gully from Fallen Angel. E3 6a, only short but good. It gets three hollow stars in the guide, done recently by (I think) Dave Birkett.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Ah, I knew that there were a couple of E3's on that buttress but didn't know their names.

On the subject of Pavey E3's, has anyone else here done Death Star? If you follow the guidebook description and eschew the high side runner in Rake End Chimney it is more like E5 5c!! Very well named.

Bob

In reply to hoseyb:

'Bones Chimney' at Brean is E3 5b IMO (and was given this grade in the Broomhead Cheddar guide) - just the first bulge is difficult and the grade probably depends on the height and softness of the sand or shingle beneath! "A classic of the genre..."

'Peril' at Avon is easy E4 hard 5c, absolute swaggering class and far finer than ANYTHING on Derbyshire limestone. Definitive 4 stars on the peak 0-3 scale! Only routes like 'Pagan' at Gogarth come close.

As this thread is supposed to be about obscure gems,
'Rude Nude' at Blackchurch is great fun if you've enjoyed the likes of 'The Archtempter' or 'Savage God'. It's borderline E3/4 5b/c but more Littlejohnesque than Fowleresque...if you know what i mean.

BTW 'Police and Thieves' was a Junior Murvin song originally. No idea where it goes though!

Is Tangerine Trip really given E4 now?

No-one seems to have put in anything at Ogmore, despite the fact that its got 1/2 a dozen of the best E4s in the country.

I'd add Spellbinder and perhaps Burn Em Up although the latters perhaps a bit cruxy to put on a really classic list.

In reply to Bob: Where does death star go? I've done Astra and a route to the left up a type of corner by mistake that felt e4/5, is that it?

In reply to duncan:
It looked gopping!
less a chimney, more a groove, the only off-width being at the top.

I was more concerned about the 4c bit really, Hotpud says there's one at Earls crag, but I'm convinced this is a typo. Surely such things only exist on tottering piles!


The only grit E4 I've seen and thought Hmmm was europa, anyone done it?


hose

In reply to Tyler:

The most pleasing E4s I can still remember are:

Amanita Muscarina, Avon

Monster Crack, Beachy Head

The Cow, Gogarth

Tumble, Dow

dockers armpit at bassetts farm rocks. probably the pumpiest day out you can have.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Mike [Gresham] had a hard time on Katana trying to decide on-sight whether to go for it or keep placing the pro: got well pumped. Did you find the Friend 3 placement low down, before reaching the main crack? It helps a lot.

In reply to everyone:
Brilliant! Thanks to everyone who has replied. This has renewed my faith in Rockfax and more importantly UK trad climbing. This may even have inspired me to get my rack out and also, at last, get down to the SW where there is obviously shed loads to do. There are crags on here I've never heard of, let alone routes. I didn't realise there were so many people still trad climbing in them thar hills, or are you, like me, working from distant memory?

It would now seem that my ticklist for the year has increased exponentially (it did only have the Cumbrain on it until today and I knew I'd never get up that anyway), I'll start with those that mention well protected and soft touch in the same sentence.

Particularly liked the phrase "absolute swaggering class", so much so that I'm going to nick it!

In reply to Bob:
Yeah I seeem to remember doing Death Star when I was a youth. It was E3 in those days and I remember good but scary climbing.

BTW has anyone here done Delayed Attack on Beinn Shuas? If so what did you think of it?

Geoff.

In reply to kel:
Is Mike still living in Denbigh and still climbing?

I started up Sai Dancing last year, decided it was too hard and did Penny (I think) instead, that was much better than it looks so look forward to getting back on SD this year. Still got to do your route (Snake Bite Wall) as well, iswas that peg any good?

In reply to:

Brush Off, Rivelin. Enough said

Calvary, Stanage. Safe but still a good one.

In reply to Tyler:

Good thread Tyler! (by the way, are you acting as Chris Parkin’s agent?).

So, you want a few recommended E4’s you might not have done. How about these:-

Cyrn Las – people mentioned The Skull, which is a fine route but well known. So well known that I had several trips up there to do it before eventually finding it vacant last year. One enjoyable route we did on one of these trips was Edge of Time – several interesting pitches, with an exposed and bold finale.

Tintagel is a fantastic cliff with a uniquely lonely atmosphere despite the milling grockles just a few yards away. Il Duce is the celebrated line, and rightly so, but Vagabond is another fantastic route on excellent rock. 5c seems a bit harsh for the second pitch, but the gear is perfect at the crucial point.

Pembroke has lots of good E4’s, but the one I’ve most enjoyed recently is Jabberwock in Box Zawn. The only beta you need is to stand on the boulders at the base of the route and plan your gear and ropes. If you run it out a bit (above perfect gear) on sections like the corner halfway corner, and use some long slings as extenders, it is possible to avoid rope drag altogether. Alternatively if you get gripped and place all the gear available, you will grind to a halt, and your second will disappear beneath the incoming tide…

Another good traditional Pembroke crackline is Over the Hill on the Castle, which always seems to be ignored in favour of the finger cracks either side.

Lots of good E4’s in the Lakes – indeed it used to be a feared rating in the days of Lamb, Botterill and Whillance, though lots of their E4’s are now E5, thank goodness.

Raven Threshthwaite has several good routes, and Boy Racer is excellent as already mentioned. If you are feeling very brave, try Overdrive to the right of the shield. Absolutely terrifying!

If you can cope with the approach, Flat Crags is a powerful venue – most of the routes are a couple of grades harder than they look and the rock is like marble. At least Exposure has the advantage of plentiful gear, but if felt hard enough to me.

Scafell next. Everyone goes for Lost Horizons, which is brilliant, but it’s poor cousin to the left, the much less prominent groove of Equinox is actually just as challenging, and has a beautifully butch second pitch up a wildly leaning wall.

At the other end of the walk-in scale, the Duddon has some superb little outcrops, and The Rhetoric of Meritocracy is an enjoyable pitch of a decent length.

As everything gets bolted at places like Kilnsey, the trad routes tend to get overlooked, which is a great shame. Central Wall already got a mention, so what about the challenging crack of Birdmen – a tricksome number which is even better if you add Chris Sowden’s direct finish up the overhanging groove.

Finally I must have one on the grit. Ceasarian at Hen Cloud. Simply perfect!

Neil

In reply to Ropeboy: didn't someone recently die leading calvary? don't sound very safe to me.

In reply to L'applat:

No the route that you have done is Eclipse E4 6a, sort of middle of the grade really. Death Star is the right hand rib of Rake End Chimney, it starts a little way up Jack's Rake. I.e. up and left of things like BrackenClock.

Bob

In reply to duncan:

Duncan - agree that Peryl is fine and swaggering, but if you are feeling just a bit braver, the mighty Changeling has even more swaggering class than Peryl. Don't miss it!

Neil

In reply to TimB:
Well Yeh? Is there something I should Know? And that thing to the left of Lunakhod, that looks great, is there a problem????

In reply to Al Evans:

Sorry Al, just trying to stir up the debate about Fay being E4 or E5 again. (mmmm, childish)

My feeling is that it's E5 5c, as it's a bit pumpy for E4, but with no moves that standout as being 6a.

In reply to TimB:
Hmmm, felt like 6a to me, and those pegs are pretty bobbins now......

(but they were bomber when you did it Jon, so it was only E4 then!)

In reply to Andy Robinson: I love it, which Jon are you getting at? This opens up the debate about whether we should replace manky fixed gear again

In reply to Al Evans:
Jon who posts on here (see yorkshiregrit.com)

Fay is easy for E4 and the Pegs were ok last year

In reply to Goi Ashmore:
They were looking pretty knackered when I did it two years ago - very rusty. Have they been replaced?

In reply to Goi Ashmore:

Hmm, I thought it was top end E4, it is somewhat harder than Resurrection for example which is a standard E4. When I did it (around 5 years ago) the pegs were in a reasonable condition but needed backing up to be sure.

Bob

In reply to Tyler:

Just remembered one - The Maze, Gogarth. Great day out. I'm sure the Missionary's really worthwhile as well.

In reply to Neil Foster:

What it is about this part of Avon - doesn't Changeling 'swagger' up the wall in the guidebook?

In reply to Al Evans:


As this is an E4 thread, I assume you mean Spoils of War, Al. Did this last year, but I think you may enjoy Fay or Break on Through or Diamond Smiles more.

Spoils of War has some dodgy rock on the first third, though infact there are solid gear placements all the way through this section. Doesn't stop it feeling intimidating though.

The best beta I could give is take lots and lots of medium/large wires. I used the whole of my limited rack of mediums within the first 30 feet, and had some huge runouts on the upper wall because my remaining rp's and rock 1's were about 6 sizes too small for the perfect placements I was climbing past.

To make matters worse, I'd just eaten a huge cream tea whilst waiting for the tides, and was feeling a bit Moby...

Go for Break on Through, Al. This looks like another poor cousin next to Pacemaker and Fay, being somewhat shorter. And the first move is a bit bold,tricky and blind. But as soon as you've done that move, perfect holds and runner placements appear as if from nowhere, and accompany you all the way to the top.

My expectations weren't overly high, but in the end I was absolutely made up with Break on Through!

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:

Does Diamond Smiles get E4? I thought that it was E3.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

Indeed! I meant Crooked Mile, of course!

Neil

ps. You done any of my other recommendations, Bob?

In reply to Neil Foster:

Done Break on Through, Diamond Smiles; Out of the Blue and Fay. Must get fit again and visit again.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

What about the others?

N

In reply to Bob:

I can thoroughly recommend Heart Bypass, which I thought was as good as anything else there...

In reply to Tyler:

We've lost touch. Last I heard he was living on the N. Wales coast [Llandudno? Colwyn Bay?] and wasn't climbing.

The peg on SBW "was" ok [no more] but it was a Lost Arrow and only in about 2/3rds. Might be a bit suspect/rusty by now.

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:


It was the most satisfying on sight I ever made in the Lakes. Probably the best E4 I've ever done. However, I thought the idea of this discussion was to highlight lesser known E4s so what about Meggazones on Gordale or Late Night Final on Langcliffe Skyline. both very neglected but very good.

dave

In reply to John Cox:
Frighteningly precise. Having consulted the guide (and been reminded how to spell 'Peryl') 'Changeling' does indeed swagger. It's also a fantastic route, as Neil says, and to be eligible for this thread can be done Nipper's original way as an E4 if you miss out the direct finish. I have happy recollections of doing this one scorching Bristol evening (aren't they all in ones memories) and getting ridiculously pumped having spent the day knocking down walls on a Clifton building site.

In reply to duncan: I totally agree about Changeling - one of life's great experiences.

Surely the wall at the end of the first pitch (gaining the Aerodrome)is 6b for anyone of normal stature?

In reply to Dave Musgrove:
Glad you mentioned Meggazones in Gordale, its awesome.
I think i have the ultimate less well known worth searching out E4.


Pan, Pembroke

Enty

In reply to Tyler:

Finally trawled my old mags to find the route that was niggling the back of my skull.

One For John Cox

-Abandon hope E4 6b 80' Menachurch point

includes 65' of v roof crack overcome by a variety of barring and thrutching techniques

one of the longest/lowest roof pitches on the culm?


he he

Hose

In reply to Anonymous:

Which others? I have replied to various parts of this thread many of which mentioned lists of routes.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

Bob

Just wondered what you thought of the other routes I suggested, particularly the Lakes ones - Exposure, Overdrive, Equinox and The Rhetoric of Meritocracy...

N

In reply to Neil Foster:

Should have recognised you when anonymous from the originating address

I've not done Exposure as I've only ever been to Flat Crags once when I was leading about E1. Slightly off-topic: have you done those newer E2 & E3's on Bowfell Buttress? I quite like the sound of them.

Overdrive is the one E4 on Raven Threshthwaite that I haven't done, originally E3 so probably quite easy. Agree that Boy Racer is good though and well protected for a Lakeland E4. The other E4's here are good as well.

I've done Rhetoric and didn't think much of it to be honest, a hard boulder problem start then about E2 except for one move high up to gain easier ground.

I've done Equinox and thought it was good, though not as good as Burning Bridges or Shadowfax. Edge of Eriador gets E4 now so that should be on the list.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned West Side Story on Buckbarrow Wasdale which is a good route and not too hard for E4.

The Terminator on the Napes is a good E4 slab. Also Sacrificial Crack and Supernatural on Tophet Wall.

Ahh, isn't the Lakes brilliant?

Bob

In reply to Andy2:

Changeling - Surely the wall at the end of the first pitch (gaining the Aerodrome)is 6b for anyone of normal stature?

Andy

I thought it was probably 6b, but there was no way I was going to fall off at that point! All in all an awesome pitch - and the top pitch is excellent too.

Neil

In reply to Bob:

>Slightly off-topic: have you done those newer E2 & E3's on Bowfell Buttress?

Only Riboletto (same day as Exposure) which seemed a bit unbalanced - a distinct crux at the bottom and then easy. Not even sure if that counts as Bowfell Buttress though.

E3?!! Probably quite easy?!!! Hmmm!

Not done Edge or Burning. Thought the top of Shadowfax was hard...

Agreed. West Side Story is excellent, and a do-able Whillance route - not too many of those around.


Indeed!

Neil

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Which one is Heart Bypass, Stu?

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:


Heart Bypass links the start of Fay to the finish of Pacemaker, along the big break. I think it's a Dave Henderson route, and for some reason it hardly ever gets done. Totally mega in my opinion, being long and super pumpy with the hard moves right at the end...

In reply to Tyler: Some good ideas for this years ticklist here, if I regain the heights of occasionally clawing my way up an E4!

Here's my tuppence worth:
On Wenlock Edge, St Govans - right next to the descent, can't understand why it lost it's stars in the new guide, it's pumpy, wild and excellent.

The Baldest, St Loy, Cornwall

Peryl, Avon - I know everyone slags off Avon but this is ace. Also the Bilk is great, though it's really E3.

In reply to Tyler: Fine thread this, also nice to see plenty of South West recommendations, although notice there are none on your original 10. So in case you plan to head that way for an E4 SW summer holiday here's my top ten "off the beaten track" ticks.

1. Touch the devil E4 6a Pentire. Very impressive line away from the crowds of the main wall. Expect the situ pegs are useless now, but there are small wires available. On the main cliff don't forget "Reflections" - great exposure. While we are at it I'll put in a plug for my own "The Crusade" which I gave E5, a recent repeat by Dave Henderson thought it soft for the grade but worth my proposed 3 stars.

2. Bird Brian E4 5b Lye Rock. A Fowler job but note you have mousetrap Direct high in your list so you'll be up for this. 3 stars and amongst best quality of the shale things.

3. Freedom E4 6b Maer Cliff. Fingery start leads to a brilliant 120ft crack going from tips to offwidth. Worth fixing a situ rope for top few feet. Downside is that this wall is inherently unstable (my route up left arete fell down) so don't know what current state of play is with this one. If not on the bouldering here is en vogue and on top quality rock. And the previously mentioned 60ft roof Abandon Hope (Put up by new BMC supremo Dave Turnbull).

4. Elisa Johanna E4 6a Cow and Calf. High in grade but excellent wall climbing with a spicy arete finish. The other E4 here "Over the moon" will complete a great day.

5. Heart of Oak E4 6a Symonds Yat. Unfashionable crag but great climb up the front face of a true pinnacle high above the river Wye. The nearby "Piggy Malone" makes the day with super pumpy climbing through the roof of a cave.

6. Tricky Dicky E4 6a Split Rock. Plenty of Avon recommendations plus Bones chimnney !! (i like that sort of stuff but wouldn't recommend that one!) So search out this quarry as good as any quarry E4 in Britain. Also try "Rustic wall with video kills finish" given E4 but easier never the less a fine pump.

7. Day Tripper E4 6a Lands End. So many great climbs on the Cornish granite but this one stands out for me, a real big feel to it and despite the nearby tourist attractions feels remote and adventurous.

8. The Serpent E4 6a Tewavas Main cliff. A Shane Ohly route which will be in new guide, given E5 but easier. Definately 3 stars though. Weaves up nose between south groove and Coleman, the finishing moves are fantastic.

9. Zuma E4 6a Daddyhole. So many excellent climbs in Torquay, don't know if this gets many ascents but it is very good. Committing and raw.

10. Monster Crack E4 5c Beachy Head. OK not South West but couldn't resist another big up for THE loose one.

In reply to Ian P:


Elisa Johanna, thats on rust flakes up a ship wreck isn't it?


very odd.


Is bird brain of the streneous or wobbly variety of E4 (xs) 5b?

nothing like bagging myself...

hose

In reply to Ian P: Glad you enjoyed the Serpent Ian. Unfortunately (or is it fortunately!?) you can access those finishing moves at E2 by going up SOuth Groove and West Wing. The Serpent, greatf un though it is, we really enjoyed the traverse back left on to the front face, avoids the direct challange which awaits a better climber.

The Maer Cliff route sounds ace, I'll put in on my list for next year!

In reply to hoseyb: Mr B you're thinking of the nearby "The Incredible Hulk" a simon uyoung creation up the rusting prow of the Elissa Johanna wreck in Hartland Point. Now while I'm a true lover of esoterica I wouldn't dream of recommending a piece of scrap metal in my top ten climbs. The rock Elissa is on the fine fin The Cow and Claf about a mile south down the coast. Bird Brian is of the wobbly variety. But has pro and real holds and moves occasonally.

Agreed about the Serpent and that top wall is prob the best bit.

In reply to Ian P:

I guess I'd better put it on my list then.... can I get away without taking (buying) pegs?

Have you had a look at abandon hope? Looks a real fun adventure!

hose

In reply to hoseyb: Hmm, trying to remember, I don't think I plavced any pegs. seem to remember large hexs, having said that I usually head up these type of things with a hammer and small selection of pegs.

I've looked at abandon Hope many times but never ventured rumour has it that the majority of the roof is very reasonable back and footing then a short bit of 6b to reach and turn the lip. Mind you Mr Turnbull was part of the legendary Plymouth Dockers crew and their grading was notoriously savage. Andy Grieve believed he couldn't climb any harder than E46b meanwhile putting up numerous E6s. Ken Palmer has received recent mag coverage and it's now obvious he's operating at the same level as many of the country's top stars. We kind of knew this at the time but he would poo poo this usually while flashing the second ascent of some local testpiece.

In reply to Ian P:

>On the main cliff don't forget "Reflections" - great exposure.

Ian, I tried this last Summer, but the peg to protect the moves in across the left wall of the groove bent when I hung a quick draw from it, and then the hanging arete I was hanging from began to disintegrate, so I scuttled back safety. How did you find the moves to access the line?

>While we are at it I'll put in a plug for my own "The Crusade" which I gave E5, a recent repeat by Dave Henderson thought it soft for the grade but worth my proposed 3 stars.

Ian, we abbed into this zawn later in the day - eventually did an E3 called Hope for Hillebrant to escape a fast approaching tide. We spent some time trying to sort out The Crusade and the other route on that wall, but I really couldn't match the descriptions in the guide to the features I was looking at. There seemed to be a discontinuous crack up the right side of the leaning wall, eventually leading to a finishing groove. It had a rusty situ wire near the bottom, and there was a shunt (!) wedged in a crack at the base of the approach corner.

Presumably the other route breaks out of this onto the leaning wall to the left, but a bit more guidance would be appreciated...

Did the finish as the variation to South Groove - spectacular indeed, and increadibly photogenic. Why no shots in the guide, Shane?

What's the gear like on The Serpant, Ian?



Agree with this one!


Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:
Neil you get everywhere! respect

Re: Reflections the start is shared by Through the Looking Glass E3 6a - this is actually the hardest move on the route. The peg was in a hideous state when I did it 5 years ago so not surprised that it's on it's way out. I seem to vaguely remember being able to either back this up with a small or medium wire or get some sort of belay on the grass that gave a form of top rope. Still it was a bit loose but very very committing. Above however the climbing is on superb rock. There was another peg which I can't remember being great but I did get a couple of bomber small wires and the climbing is esaier than expected (it used to be given E5).

RE: The Crusade. Agreed the description isn't clear. The crack and groove on the right of the leaning wall you mention (The Shield)I believe was climbed by Tony Penning at E4 6a/b ?? Both The Crusade and Turkish delight start from the leftside of the sloping ledge about 20feet above the low tide rock platform and directly beneath the crack. I believe the situ wire might be in the placement used to protect the moves swinging up and left onto a fair sized footledge. From here Turkish Delight moves up a tiny bit then takes a rising traverse to the left arete, very committing but big flat holds. Up arete to the top. The Crusade steps up onto the wall above then makes a stride up and left to an obvious line of weakness (thin crack/seam and pockets to a hand rail 2/3rds way up wall with deep pocket for gear. Crux up 2 moves then steep pull at tiny overlap up and left to sloping ledge and easier finish). The gear on this is alot of rock 1s and 2s plus a medium friend and largish rock in pocket. The rock is a bit crunchy inside the pockets so worth testing but the hand holds and climbing are on immaculate rock. I think this might gradually become an established good finishing route for the day after doing either Black Magic or Darkinbad or both. It's shorter but much steeper and pumpier. Hope the above makes sense? PS I lost a shunt the day of the FA.

Re The Serpent, Seem to remember it started slabby and gradually got steeper. Can't remember any gear to start but climbing looked tricky but was fine, then got something very good before pulling up left to the steeper and better protected climbing. Sorry this is a bit vague - I think you remember things better when you're struggling (my usual state). I have seen great photos of Shane on this thought you published some Neil but it might have been me in Climber at the time!!

By the way don't you think E4 is an awesome grade. I know this is kind of silly and it depends on how you are climbing. But there always seem to be major lines with loads of engaging climbing (little plodding) and if it's really hard usually plenty of gear to run away off of. Mind you at the moment I would be doing alot of running away.

In reply to Ian P:

I have the greatest respec' for the Plymouth crew, as My main climbing partner is pym born and bred. Unfortunately, he's not one for "climbing shite" and so of the dodgy classics, he's only popped up Archtempter. Still, he may come round to my badgering. Met Andy Grieve on the scillies, top bloke.

hose

In reply to Andy Robinson:

I did it in 2000, so perhaps, perhaps not - sorry I can't be more specific. I think they must be good, because climbing at Ogmore you tend to get good a recognising what's really knackered (e.g. the Peg on Black Magic @ Pentire!).

In reply to Tyler:
Surprised that there are no Ogmore routes in here!
Spellbinder is a really outstanding sea cliff climb and the starts not as bad as its made out in the guide if you fiddle an RP3 in.
Burn 'Em Up is also very good, but perhaps a bit cruxy for true E4 classic status.
You could do both these routes quite easily on one of the 12m tides and still get something in like Cream Crackers or Information Recieved (although these 2 are a bit like some of the more esoteric Culm routes, albeit a lot steeper).

In reply to Goi Ashmore:
My South West top 10 E4s in no particular order

Flying Wizard- Ogmore-- should be E5 in my view, but definitely one of the wildest E4s anywhere. I've never managed it yet without a rest point, but I still love it.

America- Carn Gowla by the orginal start
Very committing, Ben Bransby and I couldn't lassoo the tyrolean spike so I had to swim onto the climb. The sea was rather rough so I had to keep my clothes and boots on to avoid being battered. Finished rather hypothermic.

Peryl- Avon bird-banned at present, but superb. Can be done as a 1 pitch clip-up but safest with a couple of wires and friends.

Steam Train- Gower- just as superb as the better known Yellow Wall and Transformer.

Fay- Sharpnose- though like many others I think the state of the pegs means it deserves E5. Almost any other E4 at Sharpnose is also excellent.

Star Wars- Pembroke- the must do route at the start of every season, bold feeling but not dangerous.

Pan- Pembroke- so much better than Right Wall

Highway One- Portishead - if you're ever driving past go waste your calves on this superb sustained bolt protected slab.

Amanita Muscarina- Avon- if you've done Yellow Edge this is the one to go for next- a great exposed trip up the Exploding Galaxy Wall- probably much harder in its original A4 version. Also don't miss Captain Swing top pitch at E3 5c (perhaps the most exposed pitch in the Gorge)and Dragon E3 5c which has huge runouts on cheesy rock, but if you like that kind of thing it's is jolly good fun.

Earth Rim Roamer 2- Dyers Look Out. Great line, very loose, very memorable. Only came about after Earth Rim Roamer 1 fell down. I'm stupid enough to have done it twice and I'm sure the long finger crack on the 2nd pitch has widened considerably. Looking forward to Earth Rim Roamer 3.

In reply to Anonymous:

"High Flyer at Bamford – well if that is E4 my c#ck’s a kipper!"

Dont you mean High and Dry?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Down to earth, I get you...

In reply to John Alcock:

Flying Wizard will get E5 in the new guide. Yes it is good.

Yes that's good as well. All the clip ups at Portishead are good (except for L'Homme Absurde). Expo '92 and that Fr7b+ that cuts through Highway One are the best.

In reply to Tyler: You've convinced me about Katana.