/ Breathless 3rd Ascent

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Adam Lincoln - on 05 Sep 2005
Dave Mac this time

Good effort
steev on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Any details anywhere?
Ally Smith on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln: Bon effort
Adam Lincoln - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to steev:

Just read it on t'internet
Hotbad Peteel - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

must be true then
p
steev on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

I was hoping you might respond with a link to the relevant part of the internet. Google isn't helping.
Hotbad Peteel - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to steev:

this is about all there is
http://www.8a.nu/site2/?IncPage=http://www.8a.nu/cgi-bin/scorecard/show.cgi?view=1715&page=1
Theres a thread on scottishclimbs.com
p
Peter Walker on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to steev: 8a.nu have it; not as a news item though. He's registered it as "8b+, soft, trad" or something.
Adam Lincoln - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to steev:

Scottish climbs and 8a
steev on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to all:

Cheers.

That's quite an achivement there.

Nice work Mr Macleod.
bullwinkle - on 05 Sep 2005
Chris Fryer - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to bullwinkle: From that article "Perhaps somebody ought to get up to Scotland to check out his routes..."

Indeed.
Agent Moog on 05 Sep 2005 - host86-133-60-252.range86-133.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Chris Fryer:

Bit devils advocate this, but if big JD reckoned that Divided years had 8c climbing on it (and Birkett said 8b on his repeat) and Breathless had 8b+ climbing on it (and Dave Mac said 8a on his repeat) perhaps Total Eclipse may not be 9a...
Hotbad Peteel - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Agent Moog:

birkett said hard f8b climbing for divided years
p
Agent Moog on 05 Sep 2005 - host86-133-60-252.range86-133.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

That's what I said, 8b climbing, the addition of the prefix "hard" doesn't shunt it up two grades.
little_jo on 05 Sep 2005 - host86-132-230-85.range86-132.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Adam Lincoln: Who belayed Dave on Breathless?
Adam Lincoln - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to little_jo:

Dave Birkett or Dave Mac?

I know Steve Crowe seconded Breathless, though not sure if he belayed.

Why?
Hotbad Peteel - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Agent Moog:

whoops forgot about the + thingy. Anyways couldnt give a monkeys about the grading thing really
p
Stuart S - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Agent Moog:

> Bit devils advocate this, but if big JD reckoned that Divided years had 8c climbing on it (and Birkett said 8b on his repeat) and Breathless had 8b+ climbing on it (and Dave Mac said 8a on his repeat) perhaps Total Eclipse may not be 9a...

Why turn a thread reporting on Dave MacLeod's achievement into yet another speculative dig at John Dunne?
Norrie Muir - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Stuart S:
> (In reply to Agent Moog)
> Why turn a thread reporting on Dave MacLeod's achievement into yet another speculative dig at John Dunne?

Dear Stuart

Just wait till they find out that Dave MacLeod is also not from Sheffield.

Norrie
Agent Moog on 05 Sep 2005 - host86-133-60-252.range86-133.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Stuart S:
> (In reply to Agent Moog)
>
> [...]
>
> Why turn a thread reporting on Dave MacLeod's achievement into yet another speculative dig at John Dunne?

Fair enough. Sorry.

pigeonjim on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Norrie Muir:
> (In reply to Stuart S)
> [...]
>
> Dear Stuart
>
> Just wait till they find out that Dave MacLeod is also not from Sheffield.
>
> Norrie

That just made my day ty
In reply to bullwinkle:

From that article- somebody should be checking the reporter's spelling as it is garbage.

Tell you what though. The way Dave MacLeod is going, he is world class....
Bob on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:

Care to tell me what the spelling mistakes are? The only one that I can see is "Arrachar". Mind you, there are plenty of grammatical errors.

Bob
John2 - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Bob: What an accolade - 'hailed by the late OTE as Britain's best all around climber'.
Keith Roughley on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Agent Moog:

Well, well, well having a dig at JD ....very inventive

I would say that considering the amount of 'press' that the Breathless 3rd ascent has created along with Dave B's second ascent of Div Years, (and I may add 10 years after the initial ascent).....good luck to Dunney.


Go on then try Total Eclipse...
Alasdair Fulton - on 05 Sep 2005
Achermaine, is, achemine. "to convey"
Steve Parker - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Keith Roughley:

Right on, Keith. The anti-Dunne whispering is just crass. His record is outstanding. Seems like a lot of people just want him to be shown up - still! After all the amazing stuff he has done. I think he has earned some goddamn respect by now!
Erik B - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln: aye, great to see Dave Mac flying the flag, good effort
In reply to Bob:

Achemine and Arrochar were the two glaring errors in his reportage but I'm sure there were others I can't be bothered to look at again.
In reply to Bob:

Oh aye, and it's Glesga, not Glasgow.
Agent Moog on 05 Sep 2005 - host86-133-60-252.range86-133.btcentralplus.com
In reply to Steve Parker:

Right on Steve and Keith. I've seen the error of my thoughts. ALL routes should be beyond speculation if the first ascentionist has been prodigious and consistent in his output, but especially so if the first ascentionist is popular.

I realise that speculation about unrepeated routes can only be for the purpose of showing up the first ascentionist. I also realise, now, that I'm intellectually incapable of having an interest in the grades of routes that shape the history of our sport that exists independently of a desire to disrespect their authors.

I realise also, now, that my post was the voice for a whole group of non disclosed individulas who also only want to show up first ascentionists of the hardest routes that aren't near Sheffield.

Steve Parker - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to Agent Moog:

Wonderful sarcastic diatribe! Dig it much! A man after my own heart. I don't think you are the mouthpiece of the probably non-existent Sheff-Maf, but it is certainly a little too early to be extrapolating any misgrading trends on the part of John Dunne from these recent repeats, especially if such extrapolation is in any way infuenced by similar historical accusations concerning JD, who has repeatedly proven himself. Good response, though! Made me laugh.
MattH - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:

Thanks for pointing out the glaring spelling errors. Next time feel free to email me direct, it's far more constructive than having a public dig.

Cheers,
MattH
Norrie Muir - on 05 Sep 2005
In reply to MattH:
> (In reply to I am the God of Strathyre)
> Thanks for pointing out the glaring spelling errors. Next time feel free to email me direct, it's far more constructive than having a public dig.
>
Dear Matt

Surely it would be better to get the spelling correct in the first place, rather than being publicly humiliated?

Norrie

PS At least you reported someone doing a route more than 10m long, keep the good work up.
david roberts on 06 Sep 2005 - modem-3819.buffalo.dialup.pol.co.uk [webcacheH02a.cache.pol.co.uk]
In reply to Norrie Muir:
Could people please shut up about the whole shefffield thang? The vast majority of climbers (myself, i guess, included) who reside in sheffield do not originally hail from sheffield (i could make a list of folk but that would be utterrly pointless) and, as they come from a number of areas, understand that climbing in such far and distant lands as the lakes, scotland, devon and northern ireland is,well, pretty damn good, respectable etc. etc. even if the postcode has nowt to do with ben, or jerry for that matter.
Anyone who is anyone knows that the challenge of a hardcore mountain route is different to a fifty foot 'boulder problemn' on shitty pebbbles that are held in less than a centimetre, and i think anyone i've met in any pub anywhere who knows, say, a little bit about the climbing of rocks will acknowledge this. it is not that one is necessarily better(as in harder, more redlining it to the max[metaphorically speaking], dangerous, at the cutting edge of human endeaviour so far seen on this fragile planet etc.) than the other, rather that due to the difference in mediums they are somewaht incomparible.
i think this should be obvious but anyway, very good effort dave, nice to see such things and all that.

norrie, i think you've got a lot to learn ( i acknowledge how meaningless this phrase is - i cannot think that there could be anyone who does not have 'a lot to learn', even stephen hawking must be lacking in his knowledge of, say, the mating habits of the pyrennean desmond, but anyway, please try and get over this thing - isn't this game called climbing just a hobby anyway? it is for me).

bon
Steve Parker - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to david roberts:

Maybe you're just unaware of the repeated attacks, dismissals and accusations issued at john Dunne by climbers from the Sheffield Clique? It went way too far, and earned a small group of Sheffield climbers a certain reputation. As for Norrie having much to learn, he may have, but I doubt you're capable of teaching him.
sutty on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to david roberts:

Put your dummy back in, Norrie has no intention in getting in silly spats, nor are most of the sheffield good climbers who do hard routes all over the world. In fact they may never see this thread due to being out there and doing things instead of postulating.

Most of the comments are good natured anyway, only gets bad when someone has a go at people from other areas. No names but I know who, and they should know better after being sponsored climbers.
Tom, UKC News Editor - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to sutty:
> (In reply to david roberts)
>
> Put your dummy back in, Norrie has no intention in getting in silly spats, nor are most of the sheffield good climbers who do hard routes all over the world. In fact they may never see this thread due to being out there and doing things instead of postulating.

I wouldn't be so sure. A lot of them read these forums.

Tom, UKC News Editor - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Steve Parker:
> (In reply to david roberts)
>
> Maybe you're just unaware of the repeated attacks, dismissals and accusations issued at john Dunne by climbers from the Sheffield Clique? It went way too far, and earned a small group of Sheffield climbers a certain reputation.

I agree, there are definitely climbers who reside in Sheffield, who were at the cutting edge at the time, who doubted some of Dunne's claims on grades. Two of his 'big plums' have just seen repeats (2nd ascent or Divided Years and 3rd ascent of Breathless). Both repeaters have downgraded the difficulty of the climbing. You can't really expect that to slip by without being noticed can you?
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Norrie Muir - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
> (In reply to Steve Parker)
> I agree, there are definitely climbers who reside in Sheffield, who were at the cutting edge at the time, who doubted some of Dunne's claims on grades. Two of his 'big plums' have just seen repeats (2nd ascent or Divided Years and 3rd ascent of Breathless). Both repeaters have downgraded the difficulty of the climbing. You can't really expect that to slip by without being noticed can you?

Dear Tom

There is a difference between doing a route and downgrading it and sniping from the sidelines without doing the route.

Norrie

Steve Parker - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
> (In reply to Steve Parker)
> [...]
Both repeaters have downgraded the difficulty of the climbing. You can't really expect that to slip by without being noticed can you?

No, but we won't have any real idea until both routes have seen a sufficient number of repeats to allow some reasonable consensus to build up, will we?. Some people are just a little hasty to start chucking mud from their armchairs (not suggesting you). It might be okay to make suggestive comments about JD and his alleged overgrading tendency in the pub - it's a little more pernicious on a public forum. Personally, I'd rather wait and see rather than indulge in uninformed speculation that may detract from the reputation of a great climber.

belmonkey on 06 Sep 2005 - 83.141.98.20 whois?
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
> (In reply to Steve Parker)
> [...]
>
> Both repeaters have downgraded the difficulty of the >climbing. You can't really expect that to slip by >without being noticed can you?

But is it not just as significant that neither trad grade has been downgraded?
Dave Hunter, Rock + Run on 06 Sep 2005 - rockrun2-adsl.demon.co.uk
In reply to belmonkey:

Indeed. As Mr Birkett said of Breathless, "I'm quite happy with the E10 tick, thanks very much".
Michael Ryan - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:
> (In reply to belmonkey)
>
> Indeed. As Mr Birkett said of Breathless, "I'm quite happy with the E10 tick, thanks very much".

Some interesting thoughts by Oskar Linares at 8a.nu on the subject of grading top routes.

"1. In what other sports is it the sportsmen themselves that rate of their performances?

2. Who will have the courage of lessening his performace downgrading the route?

3. And if your sponsorship depends upon your rock results? (material, money, awards ...)

4. And knowing that downgrading the route means also downgrading other repeaters.

All the factors seem to back the standpoint tat the hardest routes are clearly overgraded or at least rarely downgraded. Very few are the climbers who are brave enough to reduce their curriculum, downgrading the routes they have done. Some honorable exceptions:"
Michael Ryan - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Mick Ryan:

Further, Wills Young did an analysis of the first 5.14a's in the USA. I think with one exception they all suffered from grade inflation and didn't keep their original grade.

Anyone care to give some UK examples of cutting edge routes that were subsequently down graded?

M
simon cox - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:
>I agree, there are definitely climbers who reside in >Sheffield, who were at the cutting edge at the time, who >doubted some of Dunne's claims on grades. Two of his 'big >plums' have just seen repeats (2nd ascent or Divided Years >and 3rd ascent of Breathless). Both repeaters have >downgraded the difficulty of the climbing. You can't >really expect that to slip by without being noticed can >you?

I am not sure that I understand what you are saying here Tom. Sheffield "cutting edge climbers", only doubted the grades - not that he had done the routes? should JD be greatful for this step forward? or iss there a new line of debate here?

What is slipping by un-noticed? certainly not the chance to have another dig at JD...

Cheers,
Dave Pritchard - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Mick Ryan:
.
>
> Anyone care to give some UK examples of cutting edge routes that were subsequently down graded?
>

Just a few examples

Wings of Unreason "hardest route in the World!!!" went from E6 6c to E2 5c then back up to E4 6b.
Adrenalin Rush, in an old York Grit guide given an British technical grade of 7b (now E5 6b)
Strawberries ...
GrahamD - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Dave Pritchard:

Question Mark was first proposed as (I think) E9 7a. What did Ken Palmer suggest ? E7 6c ? not sure where the concensus lies, though
Adam Lincoln - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to GrahamD:

With all due respect to Ken, i doubt he would notice the difference between the two! One of the UK's unsung gems!
Anonymous on 06 Sep 2005 - 10.162.200.77 [193.34.231.226]
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
'knocking on heavens door' e9 then e7 now e9 again as 'born slippy'
Michael Ryan - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Anonymous:

Some more news on the ascent from Steve Crowe's website.

http://www.climbonline.co.uk

"Breathless a breeze for on form MacLeod. John Dunne's Breathless on Tophet Wall, Gable has just received its third ascent by Dave MacLeod. Paul Diffley has filmed the ascent and it will soon appear on www.scottishclimbs.com. Dave commented "I placed all the gear on the lead, securing the skyhook with a lump of bluetack. I think the moves suited me since I've been training loads on small crimps for my Scottish project. I thought it was F8a-ish but it might feel harder on a humid day. I'd had three days on it on the top-rope but one of them doesn't really count since I was on the wrong line at the top and bottom. I reckon it's a good deal easier than my E9s in Scotland and much less committing. I could down-climb from the crux of Breathless but there's no way I could do that on my E9s!!!""
Dave Hunter, Rock + Run on 06 Sep 2005 - rockrun2-adsl.demon.co.uk
In reply to Mick Ryan:

Birkett has also commented that a couple of his E9s seemed harder than Breathless. Hence his comment quoted above when asked if he'd downgrade it...
GrahamD - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

Since DB is obviously going well at the moment, do you know if he is getting his passport sorted for a repeat attempt of a couple of DMcC routes ?
Dave Hunter, Rock + Run on 06 Sep 2005 - rockrun2-adsl.demon.co.uk
In reply to GrahamD:

I think it's crossed his mind, yes.
Dave Lakes on 06 Sep 2005 - parent-proxy-msd5-nat.zqwdrqsz.com
In reply to Adam Lincoln: I thought Dave Birkett did the 2nd and 3rd asent of Breathless
Bob on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to Dave Pritchard:

In the 1980s there were two ways of looking at the technical grade:

The first simply said that the tech grade was the grade of the hardest move on the route/pitch. It didn't matter if there was one move or several.

The other viewpoint (used by both Livesey and Fawcett) was that an UK 6b move at the end of a series of UK 6a moves may well feel like 6c or 7a. Thus Strawberries getting a tech grade of 7a. Mark Edwards also seems to have used this when grading his stuff in the South West.

Obviously the first viewpoint is the one in use today so those graded according to the other way have been downgraded as there is no move of that grade on the pitch.

Bob
pedro8001 on 06 Sep 2005 - dial81-135-193-127.in-addr.btopenworld.com
In reply to Mick Ryan:
> (In reply to Mick Ryan)
>
> Further, Wills Young did an analysis of the first 5.14a's in the USA. I think with one exception they all suffered from grade inflation and didn't keep their original grade.
>

Presumably you mean grade deflation non?


Michael Ryan - on 06 Sep 2005
In reply to pedro8001:

Thanks pedro, yes deflation.
Steve Crowe - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Dave Lakes:
>I thought Dave Birkett did the 2nd and 3rd asent of Breathless

No. After I took the photos of Dave Birkett on Breathless Karin and I both top roped the line (doing all the moves between us!) then Dave stripped the route whilst successfully repeating the route with out a rest but on the blunt end and taking out the gear on the way.
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Adam Lincoln - on 07 Sep 2005
All, video now up on the net
Michael Ryan - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Link Adam!
Adam Lincoln - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Mick Ryan:

On planetfear
Simon Caldwell - on 07 Sep 2005
Ally Smith on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Simon Caldwell: Brilliant, E10 in socks!
Adam Lincoln - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to ally smith:

Pitty you cant see the angle as it could be easily be some E2! You dont really get a perspective.
Norrie Muir - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
> All, video now up on the net

Dear Adam

No wonder it is called Breathless, climbed in 4 minutes.

Norrie
Adam Lincoln - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Norrie Muir:

Dear Norrie

Indeed.

Adam
Norrie Muir - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
> (In reply to ally smith)
> Pitty you cant see the angle as it could be easily be some E2!

Dear Adam

That is class climbing. However, I could make a an E2 look like an E10.

Norrie
catt on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

love the blu tak! good effort dave. some days you're just extra proud to be scottish...
Kipper - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Adam Lincoln:
>
> .. dont really get a perspective.

Agreed. Looks like a 'toprope' on the first section. And; 'placed all gear on the lead'?

He does make it look quite easy - good show.

Erik B - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Kipper: makes it look quite easy? thats an understatement, Dave makes it look like a walk in the park, nice one Dave! The futures bright, the futures Scottish
Norrie Muir - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Erik B:
> (In reply to Kipper) makes it look quite easy? thats an understatement, Dave makes it look like a walk in the park, nice one Dave! The futures bright, the futures Scottish

Dear Erik

Roll on his first E12.

Norrie
Ally Smith on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Norrie Muir:
> (In reply to Erik B)
> [...]
>
> Dear Erik
>
> Roll on his first E12.
>
> Norrie

Dear Norrie,
By the sounds of things some of his Scottish E9's might in need of an upgrade.
Ally
Norrie Muir - on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to ally smith:
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
> By the sounds of things some of his Scottish E9's might in need of an upgrade.

Dear ally

Do you mean a Scottish "E9", like our Scottish "VS"?

Norrie
catt on 07 Sep 2005
In reply to Norrie Muir:

well if scottish vs can be like an e1/e2. what's that gonna make a scottish e9 ;-P
WdubyaG on 08 Sep 2005 - 143.52.5.189 whois?
In reply to catt: Great route, great acheivement, absolutely sh1t video (are you sure this isn't just an obscure E2 in a disused quarry).
tony on 08 Sep 2005
In reply to Erik B:
> (In reply to Kipper) makes it look quite easy? thats an understatement, Dave makes it look like a walk in the park, nice one Dave! The futures bright, the futures Scottish

I was talking to the guy who shot the video last night, and was saying they were a bit concerned that the video made it look so easy. They were also aware that there wasn't any long shots to give a perspective of the nature or scale of the route - but the video was shot from a hanging belay, so the options were limited!

Looking forward to Mr MacLeod's next adventure!

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