UKC

I don't know if anyone else has read this article, and I'm rather surprised it hasn't generated a thread yet, but I found myself seething after reading it the other day.

Climb magazine have seen fit to publish four pages of self publicity and arrogant bull from Mr Macleod in this months comic. Although the debate surrounding bolts has been flogged to death on here(UKC) I found some of his opinions/remarks personally offensive and plainly untrue.

He starts off by commenting that the Glenmore Lodge debate was attended by "activists"(presumably the sponsored, pro bolting community) and "outside observers"(who he classes as "armchair or computer chair" climbers). As someone who climbs regularly both in the Lakes and Scotland(all be it less frequently than I'd like) I assume as I'm not a top grade dry tooling bolter or gnarly trad new router my opinion doesn't count. Having joined in previous threads on here regarding the bolts at Ben Udlaidh(Sp) I also must fall into the category of "computer chair" climber and therefore would seem to attract Macleods disgust.

His second major point(partly attributed to Cubby) is that many of us cannot have an opinion on ethics regarding other types of climbing if we have not participated in them. I personally don't feel this is true as I can understand the ethics of bouldering, sport and alpine climbing regarding style of assents etc. without actually having participated in these branches of climbing. I can also understand the rules of Formula 1, rugby, football and many other sports without having served a "well rounded apprenticeship" or having even taken part.
It would seem that Macleod is not interested in Dave Mcgimpseys or any other climbers view point involved in the "chopping" the Udlaidh bolts as they are not as well rounded mountaineers compared to Scott Muir.

Another area attacked was the idea of having rules/guidelines at all in climbing. This is a popular notion that the hills are an unregulated land in which anything goes. Bullshit! We all abide by rules, whether it be relating to environment, livestock, personal property, basic ethics(like chipping holds, pulling on gear and claiming clean climbing). The list is endless, I think some are just being selective about which rules they like.
The next area under attack is democratic rights and the idea that majority rule is not acceptable. The majority which includes some of the UK's finest mountaineers certainly should have an opinion, and one which governing bodies who are elected and funded by the majority should pay some attention to. If the majority members of an organisation wish a particular stance to be adopted then the that is what should happen. After all, the members ARE the organisation.
The next part is for me the most arrogant and contentious part of the whole article. Macleod states that "99% of trad assents are scarcely more adventurous than getting lost in the isles of Ikea". He claims that true adventure is very rare but when it occasionally does happen it "separates the men from the boys". This is complete crap! Who the feck is he to decide what others class as adventure. How many people heading at the weekend now that they will climb their chosen route? That the outcome is beyond doubt? The reality I think is very few. Whether it be novices tackling their first ever gradeI or hoary old mountain goats battling some mighty VII. Whatever, the route and grade, the outcome I'm sure for many will always be uncertain. That is part of the attraction of climbing, the unpredictability of conditions, weather and difficulty all add to the spice of winter climbing in the UK. He obviously considers people new routing within there abilities to be adventure-less as well, so Stephen Reid in the Lakes or UKC's own ErikB and Norrie have failed to find adventure as their routes of the past winter were below their max on-sight lead.
I think he's lost the plot as to why the vast majority of climbers head out into the hills each weekend.

He goes on to quote Stevie Hastons"Scottish mixed climbs are not just off the pace, they're off the fecking planet". Judging by the sh*te he produces each month in Climb mag I'd have to wonder who gives a feck what he thinks anyway!

He finishes off by saying "Scottish winter climbing continues to be crippled by lack of imagination, misplaced arrogance, fear of change" you'd have to wonder what more could be done. In a winter that saw some incredible on sight new routes and with trad grades at the leading edge on the world stage what is so missing? When you consider that climbers from all over the world travel to Scotland's hills to climb, there is a guide book to the Ben by a Frenchman and such international big guns like Steve House, rave about the climbing during the Lodges International meet at really beggars belief that things are so bad! Of course you could say what do we in the UK care what the world thinks, they are after all our hills, I don't believe its some kind of competition.

Apologies for such a long, probably incoherent and grammatically dire post. The article really has bitten deep at what I, and all the climbers I know love about UK climbing and in particular Scotland's winter hills.

On the other hand, being an expat and a BMC member maybe I should mind my own business!

Iain

In reply to scawf vu:
I used to have very similar views to Dave when I was climbing hard and sponsored to do so.

I used to climb with a view that all things need to be bolted and all routes need to be climbed.

This view changes rather dramatically as one gets older...you'll see!

Paul

In reply to scawf vu:

The main difficulty I had with the article is it is written entirely from the perspective of a leading activist. I'm less worried about the odd f8 on tunnel walls or grade XIfrom the odd 'top' climber than what could be construed as carte blanche for anyone of any grade to make the judgement. He seems to think that the only people likely to be placeing bolts are the elite - its not - far more likely to be outdoor centres etc with different vested interests.

In reply to scawf vu: Iain, I couldn't agree more. 'Top' climbers may be better at climbing than anyone else, but they are not necessarily better at thinking. Perhaps they should stick with what they do best? There may (I say MAY) be a limited place for bolts in the Scottish mountains, but only if strictly limited, and by wide ranging consensus after deep consultation (a lot more thought needs to go into it than we've seen so far). Elitist spouting really cuts no ice...

In reply to scawf vu:

>I think he's lost the plot as to why the vast majority of climbers head out into the hills each weekend.

I met Dave quite a few times at his second home (Dumbarton Rock) in the late 90's. He was very notable, not just for his talent but his sheer enthusiasm and willingness to encourage, help and spot the 'crap but keen' like myself.

I guess its hard to grasp the fear of the run-out VS leader when you have 12 grades in hand (!) but I've read similar comments by him on ScottishClimbs and its hard to avoid the conclusion that success has alienated him a bit from the struggles of lesser mortals, which is a shame.

In reply to Not Fozzz:

Just sounds an elitist prig to me, as you say he seems to have lost the plot.
Perhaps if someone decided to aid one of his routes by adding extra bolts, after all that is what he is doing, he could not complain.

Thank goodness I do not read that rag any more.

In reply to sutty:


Starting to wonder why I do!
Was quite relieved to see criticism of Perrin on the Villain thread. I was starting ti believe that it was my ignorance that meant every month was just another exercise in verbal diarrhoea! Half the time I find myself re reading Perrins articles to try and grasp what the hell he's on about.
Add that to a gear review that is worthless and endless reporting of someones latest E... whatever and I'm coming to the conclusion I'm wasting my money.
Bill Wright and Ed Douglas are both decent contributors IMO, but wasted in among the rest of the dross.

Iain

In reply to scawf vu: i only know what i've read on ukc about this topic. forgive me if my understanding isnt complete.

it sounds as if he has changed his tune from the huge thread that ran earlier this year in which i think he eventually conceded that he wouldnt place bolts. or, that his eventual comments in that thread were disingenuous.

if these guys wanted to climb on bolted routes in winter, couldnt they easily do it without being found out ? Scotland's such a large place for climbiing, they could put up a good few routes (eg midweek without anyone noticing). they could then enjoy their form of climbing without any hassle.

why, then, are they publicising it ? why take on all the hassle they've received ? why jeopardise it to the bolt cutters ?

i'd say it was the pressure of commerce. being sponsored they need to get their name in mags etc for breaking new ground, new routes, new styles. scotland is virgin territory for this and they could make sport mixed in scotland their big thing. they know the territory, they're resident - no great competition from others. it saves costs by being their backyard too.

they have to break down resistance to establish the sport and make it pay.

its clear that the great majority of posters on this site are against it, so that means that people who go winter climbing dont want their sport altered in this way and people who live in this country dont want their hills altered this way. but these guys are ignoring that.

these few guys are trying to alter a sport in a way that the its pracitioners dont appear to want, solely as a result of the commercial pressure on them to make their career, name and money from it.

thats the key that i'd take from what i've read. they may well be decent guys, but it seems to me that they've let themselves become victims of their desire to make climbing their living.

ahunter

In reply to scawf vu:

Sounds like a elitist climber who's success has pickled his brain.

I haven't read the article but if it was a repetition of his views that he puts across on this website a few months back then his argument hold little water for me.

His point on adventure is complete horseshit, adventure is all in the eye of the beholder and I am sure some top alpine/himalayan climber could say to Dave that what he does is as adventurous as getting lost in Ikea.

In reply to sutty:

Having spent sometime with Dave in the last couple of weeks, I would say that elitist prig is about the last thing you could call him. I haven't read the article in question, so I can't comment on it. However, I have seen him helping an assortment of climbers on a number of routes and boulder problems at Dumbarton while he's been resting between attempts on his latest very hard project. He strikes me as a thoroughly straightforward bloke for someone who climbs harder than virtually anyone else in the UK.

In reply to scawf vu:
Another area attacked was the idea of having rules/guidelines at all in climbing. This is a popular notion that the hills are an unregulated land in which anything goes.

Macleod states that "99% of trad assents are scarcely more adventurous than getting lost in the isles of Ikea". He claims that true adventure is very rare but when it occasionally does happen it "separates the men from the boys".

Dear scuwf

This is one area where I do have some sympathy with Dave. I think the over inflated grading of Scottish winter routes is a justification for self gratification. I look forward to Dave recording a new winter route a grade that is not the hardest in the world.

Yes, the real adventure is top roping a route until all the moves are worked out, then doing it without the top rope. So, get real, ditch trying to climb on-sight, ground up and abseil off after the hard move, there is no adventure in finishing a line. Me, I will remain faithful to my youth, and always be a boy.

Norrie

In reply to tony:

Does he point out to them that they might as well be shopping in Ikea?

In reply to tony:

Dear tony

I have no doubt that Dave is a kind and generous person to other fellow climbers, even though I have not met him. I have always said that young Scott is a nice person on the occassions I have met him. However, the issues are not about personalities.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Nice one Norrie,


Yes, the real adventure is top roping a route until all the moves are worked out, then doing it without the top rope. So, get real, ditch trying to climb on-sight, ground up and abseil off after the hard move, there is no adventure in finishing a line

In reply to sutty:

To be fair to Dave MacLeod, his routes have 'minimal' working and his abhorrence of pegs is to be commended. I find it rather strange that one so anti peg can be so pro bolt though.

And yes I found his article to be rather one sided (fair enough perhaps, it's his point of view). Who gets a 'right of reply' though? Perhaps Parnell will do another anti bolt editorial to provide some balance.

What is this obsession with 'Scotland must keep up' anyway. Who gives a stuff if Scots routes are a wee bit behind in technical difficulty? Plenty of Euros and Colonials visit and go away happy and impressed. Many applaud the current Scots ethic.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:



Exactly, although I can think of possibly 2 climbers to whom advertising a new bolted M10 or such would mean a lot. To the huge massed ranks such climbs are of passing interest and of little consequence.

One thing I don't understand is, if you want to clip QD's rather than place pro, why not pre-place gear on abseil e.g The Duel on SCnL which gets M9 for this reason.

Iain

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:
>>Who gives a stuff if Scots routes are a wee bit behind in technical difficulty? Plenty of Euros and Colonials visit and go away happy and impressed. Many applaud the current Scots ethic.

Exactly, - scottish conditions are fickle, there is a lack of large overhangs in the scottish mountains- the focus of bolted mixed climbing, scottish rock is 'generally' protectable without resort to bolts (something that can't really be said for contiental mixed venues)

Furthermore- are scottish standards really behind? Some notable foreign visitors have failed on classic hard scottish ticks over the years, and routes such as mort still compare favourably with the hardest ground up ascents elsewhere.

Lastly- steep high mountain rock in scotland is fairly limited, th rock climbers generally got there first. Winter acsents of summer lines is already a contreversial issue without retrobolting them for winter ascents .

In reply to scawf vu:

I was involved in the last big thread on this on UKC and was very impressed with the way that Dave decided at the end not to bolt the Scottish Mtns. I am still hopeful that he will stay true to his word as he seems like a genuine chap.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:


Anyone? You and all the above for starters. 80,000 climbers a month read these forums.

As regards the misconception about "armchair" or "computer" climbers.

These stats are only relevent to the 17,000 registered climbers at UKClimbing.com. They are from the readership survey in May and will be published in full before Christmas.

46% of registered UKC.comclimbers get outdoors climbing once a week or more.

52% once or twice a month. 18% twice a week. 6% three times a week.

Considering that 74% of these climbers work full-time that's no mean achievement.

Mick

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Have you been drinking?

In reply to DougG:

It's either that or he's been sniffing gas all day........

In reply to Morgan Woods:
Dear Morgan

That is really a fat ice climb on Ben Nevis.

Norrie

In reply to scawf vu:

Well it's probably too windy and dodgy for Dave to be trying his new project so it'd be good to have him reply to this thread- as before. I get the feeling he's under a lot of pressure from Scott Muir. Is this true Dave?

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:

Dear God

He replied to my post on 16 June 2005 whit this:

"Fair enough, on the basis this view, applied to the current argument I think you have won the argument and the majority view that there should be no bolts in the Scottish mountains must prevail. I accept this majority view and will never bolt a Scottish mountain crag. However I should make two additional statements:

1. The majority view is at the expense of the quality and future positive development of Scottish climbing for this reason I am ashamed to be part of such a backward, ignorant and selfish sporting community. If it wasnt for loving the activity of winter climbing so much to the point of addiction I would give up and do something else so that I wasnt part of it.

2. I beleive the majority is ignorant of the benefits of sport climbing and as long as they carry on failing to use their imagination, Scottish climbing will suffer enormously.

Thanks for the argument, see you on the hill...

dave"

I have not read his article in the magazine, so I can't comment, if he reneging on what he stated on the 16 June 2005 or he is accepting the small turnout at the MCofS's AGM as the majority of winter climbers in Scotland.

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan:



Climbing out of bed to get the lap-top
Climbing up the steps to the entrance of the internet cafe

In reply to DougG:

how did ya guess...g&t followed by two glasses of read....love the corporate expense account lunches

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Dear Morgan

Nice link to the Pentax Optio S5z Digital Camera by the way.

Norrie

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:
>I find it rather strange that one so anti peg can be so pro bolt though.

Basically it is much easier to pull a bolt then fill the hole than it is to rebuild a crack that's been pegged to death, hence many ppl's choice (back in Oz anyway) to bolt rather than use pegs in seams - pegs are a thing of the past back home and only used (if you're crapping yourself) on winter routes.

Paul

In reply to Doughboy:
pegs are a thing of the past back home and only used (if you're crapping yourself) on winter routes.
Dear Doughboy

So are pegs in Scottish winter routes, however the issue is not pegs v bolts. It is no bolts on Scottish mountains/hill v bolts on Scottish Mountains/hill.

Norrie

In reply to scawf vu:

I must confess to having the misfortune of reading Dave's muddled and naive perspective, a very talanted strong youth but climber paying such lip service in such a one sided way surely does a disservice to the many commited cutting edge Scottish activists out there.

If dave thinks the leading Scottish climbers would find more adventure in Ikea, perhaps he should change his own tactics such as giving his routes a chance, by perhaps climbing onsight, which means no absiel inspection, or maybe going the whole hog and sticking his neck out on new routes on big cliffs without prior knowledge, examples from last season include Extasy and the Moth on Meaghie, to say that the likes of Hesildon/ Tressidier/ Cave / Pretzel/ Robertson to name just a few do not push the boat out is absurd in the extreme these guys are super Alpinists, there is more to the Scottish winter scene than pure technical difficulty, the whole experience and different facets of the game have to be taken into account.

I think Dave suffers from conflict of interest.

In reply to AndyK:

Dear Andy

Do I now need permission from you to post to someone on this forum.

I note you have nothing of interest to contribute to this topic, why is that?

Norrie

In reply to Dru:

Dear Dru

Very elegantly said.

Norrie

In reply to Dru: Wonderfully put! Equally Steven Ashworths incredible Evolution IX on Great End was climbed ground up on sight! So to suggest that "sport mixed" is the way forward is ludicrous. British climbing as far as I can tell is very much alive and well. also, look at the number of first free assents undertaken by UK climbers both in the Alps and greater ranges. As suggested earlier there is probably a considerable amount of commercial pressure to be "in the spotlight".

Its interesting in the quote from Norrie that Macleod comments about his love of the hills. Perhaps he thinks the rust of us don't care? Maybe because we go to work, have wives and children we are in some way lesser climbers?

I find the whole issue incredibly sad, but there you go. Perhaps my dads influence was misplaced when inspiring me with some of the UK's climbing history.

Iain

In reply to scawf vu:

And very unique history at that. Is Dave suggesting that Scottish winter climbing be continentalised or even worse does he want to set up an Ouray Ice Park.

In reply to scawf vu:

Recurrent themes in Muir's pro- bolt arguments are accusations of 'selfishness and ignorance'in the anti- bolt majority. I find the irony quite massive!
Are these guys really trying to selflessly advance the standards of Scottish winter climbing by bolting our mountains?
In Dave Mac's case I'd say he doesn't need to as he is an extremely talented allrounder.
However, in Scott's case there is obviously pressure on him to keep up with foreign standards (and keep a career at the M grade cutting edge going)- obviously difficult if you live here?
Who's being selfish?

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:

I like this poem by someone who is called Shimidh ÓConchúir.

"Aye bolt life.
Bolt a job.
Bolt a career.
Bolt Guy to his SEPA office desk on a sunny day.
Bolt a family,
Bolt a f*cking big television to Dumbuck.
Bolt washing machines to crags, compact disc players, & electrical tin openers.
Bolt good health, low cholesterol & dental insurance to your kitchen pin-board.
Bolt fixed-interest Alien legal claims to your foreheads.
Bolt a starter home to your woody for pulling.
Bolt your friends to an 8c.
Bolt leisure wear & matching luggage to the fuselage of 747s heading for Verdon.
Bolt a three piece suite on hire purchase
in a range of f*cking fabrics to the base of each crag.
Choose bolting everything & wondering who you
are on a Sunday morning.
Bolt yourself to that couch watching mind-numbing
spirit-crushing climbing movies.
Stuffing bolts & hangers into your mouth.
Choose bolting Symbiosis up, at the end of it all,
pishing your last in a miserable thrutch on the crux.
Nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish,
f*cked-up routes
You have bolted to replace your own trad.
Bolt your future.
Bolt life. "

In reply to Mick Ryan:

Brill !!

Can we expect a reading at the Kendal Film Festival?

Who else read it with an accent a la Renton?

Bob

In reply to Bob:

I'm sure Shimidh would oblige, the wallflower that he seems to be.... ; )

In reply to Bob:


You'll appreciate this then, same author:

"The uk scene, unfortunatly, seems in the grasp of children with a 'cry at teacher' mentality when it comes to boulders, grades & FA's...Jens, mine & many other players conclusions about sly babyish emails & outright lies to cuase confusion etc, is 'grow up or at least try to evolve abit' God forbid any of you actually come to Scotland & tries a hard problem. But that would involve getting off your sassanach asses aye...rest easy, we really don't care or expect it. Wouldn't want you girls to get a hair out of place or chaff a nail aye. Interestingly the bulk of abuse comes from people who have NEVER been on my problems, NEVER climbed at that level anyway, & NEVER once contacted me privately through email or mobile to genuinely ask for beta, or my side to things. They prefer instead to use the small world of public climbing forums, & working off presumption, not solely to obtain truth, they try their best to look clever & pat eachothers backs, which in a physcological sense, really makes you wonder about the motivation behind it all aye. Or it should do if you're anywhere near level-headed. There was a day when you went to the crag to find out about a line, not cry from an armchair about a place, person or line you've never met, been to, or had the brass f*ckin'balls to try...maybe I'm wierd, but that's how it works in Scotland.
The end result of all this, is that they show the rest of the climbing world what a sniping, underhand & immature approach the uk has comparred to Scotland & our neighbouring countries. In the end the world will see only that...which is sad, especially when the campaign involves creating false i.d's for forums to continue a rhetoric of ineffectual gutless pish [which is amusingly ironic considering the same people believe their whole basis to be swimming in truth...errr...] It doesn't effect me either way, as one who merely carries on climbing, training harder & developing things without fuss or noise; completing the lines without the need to climb for anyone elses approval. So to the small clique of idiots bent on discrediting people, keep on showing your true colours ya poofs, cause ít's built, & continues to build, a good picture of whos responsible as nicely as it digs the graves. Maybe they don't like the fact that arses can be kicked by climbers operating outside of the tiny brained Sheffield Mafia world. But lets be real, there always was more talent outside of the Peak than there was inside it aye. I worked as a reports writer for O.T.E long enough to see that [also a job you don't get without climbing recognition or recommendation] So carry on, please do keep cryin & moaning, 'cuase me & the rest of the lads, we love it.

Shake a leg ya bitches. You're getting fat in that - old hat. Get up here & get on my problems & it'll be me who respects you, becuase you really need to earn it right now."

In reply to Mick Ryan:

I like Si's style but I'm not sure how you're angling this towards the thread here?

In reply to Mick Ryan:

BTW I'm sh1te, so jealousy over cutting edge ascents isn't my bugbear...

In reply to scawf vu: I draw the line at Blue Tack!

Stu

In reply to Norrie Muir:
(sorry for joining the thread so late)
You said, quite correctly IMO, "... the issues are not about personalities."
However, Dave is a climber whose achievements to date have been recognised as genuinely out of the top drawer, both in Scotland and further afield. Another aspect of his climbing is that, although his original background was in bouldering and indoor walls, he has excelled in almost all aspects of climbing, including traditional Scottish winter routes.
As a result, his views are much more likely to sway opinion than those of "Young Scott", especially as he is also intelligent and articulate. Let's hope he does NOT choose to lend his voice to the pro-bolt lobby, although his title for a forthcoming lecture at our club "No Turning Back" may suggest otherwise.

In reply to scawf vu: It sounds like Dave is mutating into Scott, an arrogant prick.

I'll never be able to climb as hard as them, and I have no desire to either. However, everytime I head into the Scottish hills in winter I experience experiences that I think the 'pro-brigade' have lost touch with. The joy of battling the elements, the joy of succeeding on a climb regardless of grade, or the acceptance of failure, the joy of sharing that experience with people I consider my closest friends, the joy of topping out on those rare, perfect blue sky winter days, the joy of doing a new route and not having the slightest interest in recording it, the joy of the walk-out and idle chatter with my partner, the joy of finding a pub with an open fire and a great pint on the journey home.

Exploration? Well, climbing in remote parts of the North and North West, often in places that are reached with much perspiration and effort seems pretty exploratory to me. It also has the advantage of making bumping in to the likes of Scott and his ilk(or anyone else) extremely unlikely.

It seems to me that the ones who have lost the exploratory element are those doing all the accusing. When ones reasons for climbing are determined by commercialisation then any claims to adventure become void. Sorry Dave, great climber you may well be, but you really need to regain a sense of perspective in all this.

In reply to scawf vu: Although the original reason for posting this was not about bolting as such, but rather McLeod's attitude towards us mere punters, there are a few things I don't really understand.
If anyone can confirm or explain the following I'd be grateful..........

Some rock types due to the lack of features, cracks/flakes etc don't lend themselves to normal types of protection. Therefore bolting can be the only viable means of protecting routes. I don't know of any high mountain crags in the UK that fit in this category.
Some types of rock due to there mechanical structure are unsuitable for traditional types of protection. I think that Limestone and Sandstone are two of these.
Other than possibly the Torridon peaks I don't know of any other high mountain crags in the UK that fit in this category.
If you wanted purely technical climbing on winter crags then to bolt them you would generally do this by abseil. Could gear not be preplaced and clipped on assent to create a "sport" route.
In winter most high crags in nick have the addition of ice/turf/neve to allow additional protection opportunities.
I don't really see the reason behind he desire to bolt, what must be over 95% volcanic rock, high crags in the UK.
As I said, I'm would appreciate any info correcting or confirming my thoughts.

Iain

In reply to All:

Has anyone actually noticed that hand drilled bolts and pegs/pitons were used by ALL of the major names in the past to do MOST of their groundbreaking climbing.

I love the idea that people on here go rabid about how much of a tradition there is in the UK on not placing "artificial" protetcion and then in the next sentence go on about how great the like of Brown, Whillans and MacInnes were...

Clueless Knobs.

Ands

In reply to Ands:

Anonymous on - 20:52 Fri - client-82-20-23-243.brhm.adsl.virgin.net [brhm-cache-7.server.ntli.net]

and the rest of yous anonymous ba' bags.

If you have an opinion on this subject then at least be man/woman enough to come out with it under your own log-in. If not then you opinion isn't worth the kilobytes it consumes.

Ands

In reply to Ands:

Hand drilled bolts? Where Ands? How many hand drilled mtn bolts can you list off the top of your head right now in the uk?

In reply to Ands:

I can think of no more than a handful btw. I think you've been reading too much American climbing history.

In reply to Ands:

Thanks for correcting us, Clued Up one.

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:

Why would anyone put in a hand drilled bolt these days when there are Hiltis about?

I am not saying they are there now. I am saying they were used in the not so distant past to put up all these lines that people go on about now. If you want me to go through the past 3 books I have read on climbing in the UK then you can consider yourself wanting.

I am not pro-bolt btw. I am entirely undecided on the subject but an currently ering towards not promoting bolting util I have decent experience of all forms of climbing. There are enough sports venues about for me to come to this conclusion without trying to create more. i would say my attitutde has changed on this greatly over the past few months and in relation to your stance on the subject, to the positive.

Cheers,

Ands

In reply to Ands:
I personally think a few more sports venues wouldn't be a bad thing. No reason why trad and sport can't coexsist.

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:


No, I have read no American climbing history, only UK. At the moment I am on Climb to the Lost World which is admitedly not climbing in the UK but climbing by most of the 70's top class UK climbers. They were pilling hand drilled bolts into Roraima like there was no tomorrow. Pitons galore piled into The Old Man of Hoy by Patey and Christian Bonnington.

Ands

In reply to Ands:

Ands, I can think of 2 notorious BOLTS in Scotland apart from Scott's Ben Udlaidh nonsense-
on Point 5 (the Ben)
on Whither Wether (Cobbler)
If you know of any further mountain crag aberrations please enlighten me...

In reply to CurlyStevo:


I don't disagree but what I am saying is that I am going to wait until I make a decision on what I think is right and only time and an investment of my energies into the sport in more of it's forms than I have been exposed to can help me come to that decision.

It is entirely possible that I will devote all my time to trad and only climb on other sports venues or not climb sports at all.

Ands

Ands

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:

I never said there were lots of bolts in the mountains. Couldn't be happier that there is not and wasn't aware that this had turned into a no-bolts in the mountains debate. What I find hilarious is the defence of not using "artificial" aid by people who will then come out and praise those who have used it in the past.

Quite perplexing.

I have a bit of work to do.

Ands

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:

One of the pro arguments appears to be along the lines of "without bolts Scottish climbing will be left behind" however it is not Scottish climbing but Scottish climbers that feel they will be left behind. This is no excuse to introduce bolts to currently bolt free cliffs. I see no reason to introduce a new climbing culture from another country at the expense of our own. Why not introduce the East European ethos of knotted slings for protection? It is as valid as any other. Perhaps it isn't convenient enough.

It doesn't matter if the hardest test pieces are in one particular country as those outside that country will travel to test themselves on it. If any individual wants to "keep up" with international standards then they are free to move to a location where that is possible. After all British track and field athletes have been doing it for years without sponsors or press considering them any less British (or Scottish). If relocation is too high a price to pay, changing the accepted ethos at home is not really the way to go about it. Imagine if Kelly Holmes insisted on running races clockwise around the track.

As for ignorance: well I have been climbing bolted routes for about the same length of time as young Mr Muir has been alive. I may have learnt one or two things in that period but then obviously I'd need Scott to confirm them.

Bob

In reply to Ands: I think you'll find the number of bolts on mountain routes in the UK is tiny. A number were chopped shortly after being placed. some of those that placed bolts admitted regretting it after.
Pegs at one time were the only real option other than threads. Pegs have never been widely accepted in the UK compared to continent/US and there use has tended to be as a last resort.
The first ascent of Point 5 is a classic example of a route tragically beaten with inappropriate gear only to be climbed in beautiful style less than two years later.
Cordless drills are a very recent arrival. Short of dragging a generator or compressor up a route(bit of history there)the only option not that long ago was hand drilling.

Out of curiosity, let us in on "all these lines" and the three books?

Iain

In reply to Ands:

>I love the idea that people on here go rabid about how much of a tradition there is in the UK on not placing "artificial" protetcion and then in the next sentence go on about how great the like of Brown, Whillans and MacInnes were...

Better read up on some FA of some of their routes before calling others clueless knobs, you clueless knob

BTW, what route had a peg placed in 1933 and the route took forty years to free according to FRCC journals?
Bit of homework for you

In reply to Ands:
What a relief.

In reply to Ands:

Remember though that there was a different ethos in say the 1950s from today. In the 1950s the only protection means available were slings and pegs. There wasn't the panoply of wires and camming devices that exist today. Climbing was a lot more serious. It's a bit like applying modern day morals to England in the 1500s, what was acceptable practice then is, to most people today, somewhat abhorrent.

Given today's technology and the acres of unclimbed rock from the 1950s would someone like Joe Brown have climbed those routes in the manner he did? I doubt it.

You have indeed.

Bob

In reply to Ands: Ands, for someone who by his own admission on here, stated they knew nothing about climbing history just a few weeks back, I find your sudden evolvement into an authorative climbing historian admirable

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Dear Curly

The issues is not against sports routes, but bolts in the Scottish mountains/hills. There are plenty of low level crags for sport route, if, those who want sports routes, the only problem is not all sport climber are willing to get of their backsides and bolt them.

It has been explained on other threads why Trad and mixed sport routes can't co-exist on Scottish mountain/hill crags. This is owing to the adventure nature of traditional Scottish winter climbing. The adventure of Scottish winter climbing would be made redundant, if a bolt line was a few feet away.

Norrie

In reply to wcdave:


Why do I need to be an authorative climbing historian to be able to read a few climbing books and read that on almost every route written that Patey, Whillans, MacInnes, Brown, Bonnington are written to have done then pittons were used.

These books are full of. "The climbing got really hard here and we decided to bang a couple of pittons in to set up a safe belay" etc.

The fact that this has become so obvious to me in such a short period of reading up on the subject suggests exactly how rampant it was. Your claim for my requirement to need to be an authorative climbing historian to be able to suggest this is utter nonsense. The ability to read was all that was required.

I am talking about having read a few books that cover a LOT of climbs in different areas of the UK/the World. All those routes that were done in the 30's on the ben were pittoned to bits. Not saying they were not super hard blokes just saying why do you people go on about no "artificial" aid in rock climbing then praise these people? No one has answered that. Possibly for the obvious reason!

Ands

In reply to scawf vu:

Personally I've always thought Dave McLeod was more of a self-publicist than a good climber. Sure he can climb technically quite hard things but when he came to Ilkley to climb he had mats everywhere and high side belaying and really I thought it was just crap. He would be better shutting his mouth and just going out and doing hard, bold climbs in good ethical style. Then he might gain some respect.

In reply to scawf vu: I'm just curious why somebody (lets say Norrie, for example) hasn't ripped the bolts out of Creag a' Bhancair - slap bang in the middle of the hallowed corridors of Glen Coe.

Or is anything below an altitude of 500 metres deemed fair game for drilling?

Please enlighten me.

In reply to Norrie Muir:



Norrie man if that IS what is being discussed here then I am all for no bolts in the mountains. I got the feeling that a general bit of Dave Mac/bolt bashing was going on here though.

This whole realisation of the old school using "artificial" gear only just came to me (like a rocket) recently through reading some climbing books and maybe this isn't the place to discuss it. It just seems odd. I may start a thread of my own in the future on the subject when I have read some more. Who knows maybe I have just been amazingly unlucky and have read about only these particular arftificial practioners. Doubt it though.

Kind of seems as if this massive tradition of no artificial aid in the UK has only been about for about the past 10-20 years to be honest.

Ands

Am away hame.

In reply to Ands:
Dear Ands

To the best of my recollection, none of your named climbers climbed in the 30's.

Norrie

In reply to Horse:


Hey, I don't like hypocrytes so sue me?

Ands

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Yeah I was thinking about Bill Murray there. All the way up to the 70's Patey, MacInnes etc were banging in the pegs.

Ok def off home now.

Ands

In reply to Ands:

They "banged in a few pitons" because they had nothing else!

I suggest you do some further "research" as opposed to simply reading. Try to understand *why* they felt the need to place pegs to back up the belay. Also an understanding of why pegs are not the same as bolts may help.

Bob

In reply to Ands: Are you getting confused between pegs being used for protection, and aid climbing which may or may not involve the use of pegs, but means you use the gear to advance rather than the rock?

Iain

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

There was a real stushie about Cubby's bolts on that roadside crag many years ago and it was resolved. When that crag had a bolted line on it in the 60's there was less of a problem.

Why don't I rip them out, well, maybe I don't think they are on a mountain crag.

Norrie

In reply to Ands:

Dear Ands

I think you should, and get some more reading material. All the old climbers you have mentoned in this thread are not noted for pegging routes with the exception of McInnes.

Norrie

In reply to Ands:

>All those routes that were done in the 30's on the ben were pittoned to bits. Not saying they were not super hard blokes just saying why do you people go on about no "artificial" aid in rock climbing then praise these people? No one has answered that. Possibly for the obvious reason!

Where on earth did you read that? Just read the relevant bits of Ken Crocketts Ben Nevis history and the only mention is of the pegs used on the first ascent of Slav Route, in pouring rain, for belays.
There is another of one used for a running belay when someone used it to escape route but apart from that nothing. There was an antagonism to pegs in fact, they were carried by some for emergency use as there was often nothing else to use as a belay. Remember they had mostly 80ft ropes and no runners at all.

McInnes and team used more pitons than he should have on some routes but again he was doing things that are still very hard free now. Perhaps you need to read more SMC journals instead of story books.

In reply to Father Faff: Unlike yourself I've never seen Dave Macleod climbing in the flesh, so to speak, but from what I've read etc I think he is an incredibly talented climber. Probably one of the finest in the UK with incredible FA's of sport, trad, winter and boulder routes.
What I felt very aggrieved about was his attitude to the rest of the climbing community and dismissal of the opinions of others.

Iain

In reply to Norrie Muir: Thanks for the quick reply Norrie.

I see your point about it not being a 'mountain crag'. I mean, you never get winter conditions on crags below 500 metres, do you? In fact, it's a wonder they describe so many winter routes on crags around this altitude in the SMC guides.

Oh, and when you say that the bolting of Tunnel Wall was 'resolved' - presumably you mean that people realised that bolted and trad routes could quite happily exist cheek by jowl. A very modern and agreeable solution to a potentially difficult situation, no?

In reply to Ands:
Remember, there is a difference between "pegs placed on lead" and "pegs 'not' placed on lead".

Pegs placed on the lead (typically by hand?) are often considered ethically reasonable. AFAIK (please correct me if I'm wrong), they're considered the "normal" part of a rack on parts of the devon coast?

The point being made is that (maybe?) ethics haven't changed much since the 30's? All that's changed is that we have access to less damaging pieces of protection which, these days, are (generally) used more frequently (and readily?) than those of "yestayear".

As other posters are saying, with more protection opportunites around these days, pegs are not needed to the same degree (thus peg damage should be minimized - particularly if they are left in at "obvious" wear points).

Bolts do though (obviously!) leave an instant scar upon their insertion. Removal also tends to guarentee some form of a scar (which may sometimes be covered up cosmetically).

In reply to sutty: Had the pleasure of attending a Doug Scott's (one of Britain's finest ever climbers IMO) lectures back in May about his ascent of Kanchenjunga(sp) with Pete Boardman and Joe Tasker. Quite remarkable was after the lecture there was a bit of a question and answer session, Doug set off on a vociferous and passionate speech regarding the ruination of countless fine alpine routes by bolting. Routes he'd climbed 30+ years previously in fine style that are now being bolted. He desperately did not want to see the same thing happening in the UK.
Although the issue here is not specifically retro bolting, his enthusiasm for good style and trad climbing was a pleasure to listen to.

Iain

In reply to Simon Panton:


I'm struggling to think of loads of winter routes below 500m Simon. Care to give us notable examples?

In reply to Simon Panton:
Stop being sarcy and say what you really mean please.

In reply to scawf vu:

There was quite a furore when they placed a lot of gear on the South face of the Fou, it was the start of the rot.

In reply to Ands: I'm not saying you need to be an authorative climbing historian at all. My point is that you make a wild claim(that climbers from past generations used to hammer pegs in left, right, snd centre) which is simply not true. You make this claim based on the fact that you've read three books.

You're confusing the use of pitons and the use of bolts. As others have pointed out, those climbers you mention didn't have all the shiny gear we can buy in a multitude of shops these days. Pitons were more than often used as a last resort....read Pateys account of his climb 'Crab Crawl' on Meggie(he set off with two pegs, one he used for an abseil, one he gave to another party he met on route).

This whole debate is concerned with one thing...the use of bolts in the Scottish hills. Pure and simple. Some of use, in fact, the vast majority, don't want to see ANY bolts whatsoever in our hills. Unfortunately, a tiny, elitist, minority are pissing over the wishes of the vast majority on this issue.

In reply to scawf vu:
Dave Macleod said:
"I feel that self regulation can work well among well rounded activists who generally show a great deal of mutual respect for each other and the crags. But I also share Cubby's view that certain quarters of the climbing fraternity, who lack experience in all aspects of climbing, yet feel in a position to dictate (both verbally and directly by removing bolts) what the rest should do, present the true threat for the future of the sport in Scotland."

Just for the record Dave, if you're reading this, I've clipped bolts in Norway, France, Spain and Switzerland, I've climbed the Eiger '38 route, played around on the Ruthven boulder a few years before it was 'discovered', I've only 40 Munros left to do (and working my way swiftly through the Corbetts too..), I like climbing on seacliffs, small crags, mountain crags (in summer and winter), I was supportive of Scott's drytooling routes at Birnam from an early stage (remember me saying to you 'it was a step in the right direction'?), I'm generally supportive of the existing low-lying Scottish sports routes, I fully recognise the value of sports climbing (in appropriate places) but somehow (despite all this) I'm not one of your specially chosen well-rounded activists, I lack experience in all aspects of climbing apparently and I like nothing better than threatening the future of Scottish climbing by chopping bolts placed in Scottish corries.

Fair to say Dave, I didn't appreciate your article one bit.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

You presume wrong, it was resolved by the MCofS's guideline on bolts - no bolts on mountain crags, but low level crags. It is a clear solution, unlike the "modern" proposal of the self elected elite will bolt where they like for their own reason.

I see you don't understand the adventure element of Scottish winter climbing.

I don't read the SMC's guides, so I will take your word that there are "so many winter routes on crags around this altitude" of 500m.

Norrie

In reply to Stac Pollaidh: Apologies for the sarcasm, but I find this whole argument a little unbalanced when there are already bolts in the mountains of Scotland, even if Norrie chooses to describe Creag a Bhancair as a ‘roadside’ crag.

In my copy of the SMC Glen Coe guide there are plenty of winter routes described on crags below 500 metres, and if you stretch up to 600 metres even more. I won’t bother listing them all. (Try F Buttress at 520 metres, Achtriochtan Face at 350 metres or lower Cliff at 400 metres on Aonach Dubh for a starter)

The point I’m making is that this is not a simplistic, black and white situation. If anything, Scott and Dave’s stance with regard to bolting is just history repeating itself. Cutting edge climbers have always challenged existing norms.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

In Scottish winter climbing, I doubt it.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

So, are you saying that no bolts were placed on Tunnel wall until the MC of S devised a policy? Or did the bolts get placed by the elite climbers of the time, and a compromise was reached afterwards?

"I see you don't understand the adventure element of Scottish winter climbing."

What leads you to this curious conclusion? I am a big fan of Scottish Winter climbing (and Welsh, when we get it).

In reply to Simon Panton:

Of what is climbable perhaps. Generally speaking the grades have advanced and the style has also improved to the point that on sight ground up without points of aid is now happening at VIII or even IX.

Whether bolting is an advance or not is I think somewhat contentious!

I asked before why do they not used preplaced gear?

Iain

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

As you well know, afterwards.

I am glad to hear you like winter climbing, if one winter climbs and there is a close proximity to bolts, then the adventure element is reduced.

Norrie

PS In your SMC guidebook of Glencoe, is there a bit about the bolting guidelines in Scottish mountains? Also who helped to write it?

In reply to scawf vu:

I think Allan Mullin was trying to challenge what was done and got a bit of a slagging for his efforts. He was someone who really tried to push things further by using more gear than was the norm even though he was often soloing. Pity he gave up as he would have given others a run for their money.

In reply to sutty:

Dear sutty

I think he was pushing himself, and that is not a critisism, as he gave up when still alive.

Norrie

In reply to Simon Panton:
Simon (i'm stac as well btw, bit sad i know but there you are), you're right it's not a simplistic situation but I tend to agree with Norrie that Creag a Bhancair is not a mountain crag - despite the altitude (400-450m base) it's low down on the flank of the hill, only a short climb up from the flat base of the glen and a long way from the main Buachaille routes round to the east. The surrounding environment is mountainous yes, but then so is Glen Nevis.

There was all sorts of controversy anyway as Norrie says, and further controversy when they were retrobolted from their original sporting sports route status (i know you know this but not everyone does) - Gary Latter, Rick Campbell and others wrote furious letters into the mags at the time. Whatever, the bolts weren't chopped then, if they had to be chopped then would have been the time to make the point. Much too much water under the bridge since then though.

What Scott Muir has done is to push the envelope a good bit further and bolt routes in a Highland corrie (at about 500-550m base). Not down at the bottom of a hill, but in the heart of the hill. To me that makes a big difference, but perhaps you don't agree? The precedents this sets is worrying, Scott says he wouldn't bolt lines on the Ben, but if Crossroads was accepted then literally scores of other corries could potentially fall prey to his Hilti. And one already has, he emailed me to say so when I informed him that we'd chopped the bolts - it's a big secret though where it is, we won't find out until the big press release you see.

The line Crossroads would collect snow as it's mostly just under vertical, but the overhanging line he also bolted just left of the arete (about 2m away and the first of many lines he had planned to 'grid-line' bolt on that wall) would be your archetypal continental drytooling route (but with no ice to finish, just bare rock the whole way). So what, in a Scottish sense is the point of the lines being there? The only thing wintery about them would be the weather in winter, otherwise they're just another Birnam Quarry type exercise.

They had to go, and for Macleod to suggest in anyway that I hadn't thought things through (or wasn't qualified to be part of the self regulation process) before chopping is really crap - we waited until Easter by which time it was abundantly clear the majority had no wish for the bolts to remain.

Special MCofS committee or no committee - if the bolts go back in they'll come back out.

ps strange how in the Climb editorial this month, there is a lot of backslapping going on about the bolts removed from Gogarth, another very traditional spot and developed over the same years as Udlaidh. Climber seems to be angling for the probolters in their issue, bit of a turnaround for Bernard since his Mountain days?

In reply to Simon Panton: Agree with where you're coming from, but would like to play devils whatsit... there's potential for some mixed routes at the bottom of the pyramid in ysgolion dduon - chossy overhanging rock with dripping ice to top out onto - how do reckon climbers in north wales would react if somebody put bolts in the rock up there?

In reply to Dave McG:
I think it was Dave Rock and Run who suggested I write again in reply (which doesn't make sense as I write for Climb) also I feel my views are now well known and to continue my own rant would begin to look personal, something I wish to avoid. So why dont you dave McG write something for Bernard, it would be interesting to hear why you removed the bolts and your view of the state of Scottish winter climbing and its future.

By the way as an aside the Tunnel Wall bolts seem to me an obvious paralell with what could happen with winter climbing. That one of the best challenges on Scottish rock was neutered by the top stars of the day creating something that was cutting edge at the time but could have been left for the not very distant future as a pure challenge to rival Indian Face. Surely Dave Mac would have loved the opportunity of another Scottish E9 and the first Scottish E10? Witness Dave Mac's recent onsight attempts on Symbiosis e8(route name??)

PS Im in the States not actually obsessively posting at 5am in the UK

In reply to Dave McG:

Dear Dave

I have a been about for a longish time in the mountains/hills and realised early on the amount of backslapping and backstabbing that went on in mountaineering/climbing literature/magazines. You probably spent too much time out on the hill to notice this, little cliques setting their own agendas and giving voice to them in magazines, some out of print.

Some things change, new titles, new trends and modern ideas, however, some things are worth preserving, like our Scottish winter climbing ethos. Climbers come and go, just like climbing magazines, and it is a sad day when we have to pander to their latest whims.

Norrie

In reply to Ian Parnell:

Climb/Climber it's all too confusing for a simple chap like me.

Sorry though.

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
I did Whither Wether a couple of weeks ago and I never noticed the bolt there any more. Then again, I wasn't looking for it since WW is really about being a bold, exposed lead.

Bolts on trad routes are'nt very bold!

In reply to Stuart the postie:

I've heard the WW bolt has been removed. It was very old, about 4 metres after the start of the climb, on pretty easy ground, before you step round right onto the slab.

In reply to Not Fozzz:
That would exlain why I never saw it, thanks.

In reply to scawf vu: Bugger me just been looking at the prog. for Kendal film festival and Dave Macleod's lecturing on the Saturday...............

http://www.mountainfilm.co.uk/film-festival/programme-2005.html

Do I want to go? Will he be lecturing about how we're all holding him back? Will he want to bolt me to a lamp post?

Decisions........

Iain

In reply to Stuart the postie:



you never been on welsh slate then?lol

this is always gonna be one of those topics where people have to agree to disagree!i have climbed bolted routes to 7c+ and non bolted routes to E6 aswell as soloing to E5 and i havnt really got a preference as i prefer bouldering anyway!i think its a case at looking at the particular carg and seeing what has gone before but this can be misleading by looking at the amount of bolts and pegs in the gritstone quarries!!

about dave mccloud-yeah he may be a better climber than all of us but he doesnt have anymore right to climb!


rich

In reply to scawf vu:

I assume as I'm not a top grade dry tooling bolter or gnarly trad new router my opinion doesn't count. Having joined in previous threads on here regarding the bolts at Ben Udlaidh(Sp) I also must fall into the category of "computer chair" climber and therefore would seem to attract Macleods disgust.

I'm glad the article stirred up some feelings. That was one of my aims. Its other main aim was to get people to challenge their ways of thinking about the issue rather than reading it as an attack on your ego (I dont think this has happened in your case). The points you take issue with are mainly a classic case of either my point going straight over your head or you not having read it properly. I have addressed these in turn below(well apart from the pathetic personal attacks anyway).

Firstly, your accusation that I think your opinion (or anyone else's) doesnt count is completely wrong. You have misunderstood my point. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but only an informed opinion can make a positive contribution to the debate. the first pragraph of my piece, where I talked about observers from the computeer chair was lighthearted, not loaded. Maybe you have had a sense of humour bypass?


Anyone can understand the 'rules', but actual participation of the activity helps with understanding the aesthetic nature of the experience, and the subtelies of how changes in the rules will affect the experience. It is Dave McGimpsey who has not listened to the views and wishes of of others. I am certainly ready to listen and talk to Dave or anyone else in order to progress our understanding of where we are all coming from. Dave, on the other hand, just went out with his bolt cutters.

My point here was not that rules per se are bad, just that they can stifle the good things in life if they take over. We need some rules in climbing, but one of those rules should be that we shouldnt loose grip on freedom to be creative.

> The next area under attack is democratic rights and the idea that majority rule is not acceptable. If the majority members of an organisation wish a particular stance to be adopted then the that is what should happen.

The majority view can be wrong. I dont think that is contentious. I have chosen to accept the majority view that the shall be no bolts in the Scottish mountains. This, however, doesnt change my opinion that the majority is ignorant and short sighted. Thus, my article is a respectful protest against entrenched ignorance.


I am one of those climbers who heads out every weekend, just like yourself. I have expressed an opinion that adventure meant more than just participating. There are more than one aspect of adventure, including risk of failure and also risk of injury. This applies at all ranges of ability. There is nothing arrogant about this idea. I dont understand why you think it is?

>> He finishes off by saying "Scottish winter climbing continues to be crippled by lack of imagination, misplaced arrogance, fear of change" you'd have to wonder what more could be done. In a winter that saw some incredible on sight new routes and with trad grades at the leading edge on the world stage what is so missing? I don't believe its some kind of competition.

A lot more could be done actually. That is where the exercise of imagination must come in. If you keep on wondering, as well as actually listening to what other have to say instead of getting all defensive and taking things personally, maybe you might see that things could be even better. You are right it is not a competition. But it is making a good thing better still, this is what I'm on about.

Not Fozz - Do you think my climbing does not involve struggle, failure and frustration? I can tell you with confidence that is wrong. Did you know that I once climbed at the bottom end of the grading scale and struggled? It is becasue I strugged extra hard that I moved a bit nearer the oterh end of the scale.

scawf vu again - the reason it would'nt be a good progression to start preplacing gear on trad routes instead of bolting separate ones is an issue of dilution of worthwhile ethics. I personally think the Scottish tradition of boldness, onsight climbing and leader placed protection is worth defending. Therefore, I think the two should be kept separate. If they both exist separately, they will complement each other in ways I have explained in a previous thread on this website. If, as you suggest, they were underminded and diluted by preplacing or hammering gear, the good aspects (and the adventure) would be lost.

I have never said that sport mixed climbing is 'the' way forward. I dont know where you got that from? I have only ever said that all styles co-exisiting is the way forward, for the benefit of each.

you said:
"Generally speaking the grades have advanced and the style has also improved to the point that on sight ground up without points of aid is now happening at VIII or even IX.

Whether bolting is an advance or not is I think somewhat contentious!"


The top grade of onsight flash was VIII for a couple of decades. It advanced when I did the first and only onsight flash of a IX in 2002. I managed that because I did some sport style mixed. So it is not contentious for me.

Mick Ryan - No I am not saying Scottish winter climbing should be continentailised. The opposite. It should be purified. My article makes clear how this can happen.

Dave McG - I'm sure you are a well rounded climber Dave, I didnt say you werent. The only thing I would accuse you of is not listening to others wishes. I listen to yours by holding back from making a change I think would be good. You just went out and chopped. I'm sure you thought it through, but you still ignored others thoughts and just acted selfishly anyway.

Ian Parnell - did you read my article in Climber? Did you read the caption about Axiom. It explains why time and again climbers perfectly capable of climbing the tunnel wall without bolts have chosen to climb it with bolts, and gone trad climbing on more suitable projects.

Scawf vu (& anyone else) - please do come to my lecture at Kendal and I'll buy you a pint afterwards and we can discuss ideas about adventure and styles in climbing. Yes I'll be lecturing about some ideas of mine about how adventure climbing could be even better than it is now. Maybe you'll find out that we might have more common ground on the issue than you think, or maybe you will still want to write me off as an arrogant prick, but at least you'll have seen some slides of some nice areas and had a free pint. Or you could just wirte me off as an arrogant prick now, that would be the easy option I suppose. Most people take the easy option.

In reply to Dave MacLeod:
This, however, doesnt change my opinion that the majority is ignorant and short sighted. Thus, my article is a respectful protest against entrenched ignorance.
Dear Dave

My opinion and others find the minority, informed, but short sighted. There is a lot of ingorance going on with our issue on both sides, which does not help either side.

Norrie

In reply to Dave MacLeod: Thank you very much for replying! Its something of a surprise but as you've posted on here before perhaps there was an element of hope that you'd see it.
I would agree that the majority view can be wrong. History is full of examples. However, I think that the climbing community in the UK is largely well educated and intelligent enough(myself excluded) to make informed decisions and, have opinions that are born from experience and knowledge rather than a following the crowd" mentallity. I didn't see your article as that respectful a protest!

Your article suggests that punters climbing at the lower grades are no more adventurous than gtting lost in the isles of Ikea! I'm sorry but as an ex-MRT member I have seen first hand the cruel toll the UK's meagre hills can exact. Especially in winter, for mere mortals like myself I have rarely committed to a route that has been a foregone conclusion, fickle conditions along with personal limitations(I'd like to do nothing better than spend all my time in the hills, but family etc means I don't), days spent climbing are, to me at least, always adventurous and anything but a garunteed outcome. Failure and injury are two outcomes I've met, I've had my share of epics, enough disco leg to loosen your teeth and those all to rare occasions when things have "clicked" making moves easy and pitches float by. These are the reasons why I climb, because you never really know what the outcome will be. Our mountains maybe small in hieght but the rewards and adventure are huge.

Why preplace gear on existing routes? What I was getting at was equiping new lines or exsisting summer lines. Is this not the case with THe Duel? Is this not one of the ways that recent new XS's have been climbed? How on earth is preplacing gear any less ethically correct than bolting? At least with preplaced gear it can be removed post ascent.

More likely than not I'll be at Kendal(trying to win wifey over re. cost of all the things I'd like to see).

Iain

In reply to Dave MacLeod:
"I'm sure you thought it through, but you still ignored others thoughts ( http://www.scottishclimbs.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1770&highlight= )
and just acted selfishly anyway."

Dave, let's just remind ourselves these are the first sport routes ever to appear on a British mountain crag.
Are the British climbing public, who have resisted bolts on mountain crags for decades supposed to suddenly change our minds because Scott and you say so? Come on man, get a grip.
Brand me selfish if you must, but I am absolutely at peace with myself that to remove those bolts was the correct response.

In reply to Dave McG: disappointed Dave , you criticize others for ingorance yet your article is riddled with mis-information, assumption, supposition, sweeping generalisations and ignorance of others views and activities. The same things you criticise in others. In so doing you succeed in winding up a huge number of folk and do little for your arguments. Pity dave, great pity.

Neil Morrison

In reply to Dave MacLeod:
.


I'm lost for words Dave....

The first frost has hardly fallen on the Scottish hills and the annual acrimonius Scottish winter bolt/ethic debate kicks off for the season.

I'd rather hoped that the MCofS bolt comittee proposal had taken the heat out of all of this. I do hope that Scott has been talking to this comittee about his new projects and will abide by their conclusions. Otherwise I guess it'll be another winter of discontent...

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

>Not Fozz - Do you think my climbing does not involve struggle, failure and frustration? I can tell you with confidence that is wrong.

I don't doubt it for a second, quite the reverse, I can hardly imagine the years of focus that some of your Dumbie roof projects have taken. But can you not also acknowledge that the 'crap but keen' also get genuinely rattled on technically relatively easy climbs?

>Did you know that I once climbed at the bottom end of the grading scale and struggled? It is becasue I strugged extra hard that I moved a bit nearer the other end of the scale.

That and some physical gifts that would be churlish to deny. You were repeating some of Andy G's hardest problems at the Rock in your teens, that represents an exceptional natural talent, as well as obvious hard work.

btw thanks for spotting me on Mestizo, 31/3/98. I certainly felt like I was having a wee adventure to myself up on those lichenous rockovers..........

In reply to scawf vu:

It does not suggest this in any way. It suggests that people who climb on trad (diff or E10) are not necessarily adventurous. Thus, a superiority complex over those who enjoy sport climbing is misplaced. Adventure has nothing to do with grade, it has to do with doubt. This is my point. You have taken it to meant something completely different. Very few people can cope with anything more than a snifter of doubt on a regular basis. I have only met a couple of climbers who can. Most of us, especially myself have to battle with oursevles to work up the bottle to handle some real doubt in our climbing.

Neil Morrison - "Pity dave, great pity" Im sure it is a pity for you. I'm sure it would be much easier if I was mindless and accepted the dogma that is dished out to me.

9 points - "I'd rather hoped that the MCofS bolt comittee proposal had taken the heat out of all of this." I bet you did, then it could all be swept under the carpet again.

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Dear Dave

You are taking it too personal, the whole world is not against you, young Scott supports you.

Norrie

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Your article says, 'The reality is that 99% of trad ascents are scarcely more adventurous than getting lost in the isles,(sic) of Ikea. Adventure happens when the outcome is uncertain.'

Well to you maybe, to the people who try routes near their limit whatever the grade and sometimes have to back off, they are having just as hard a time as you, maybe more as you have done the sport route thing and practiced moves time after time. The punter WANTS that onsight of a route to be able to see if they are improving, it may not be ground breaking to you but then your performance on grit compared to Dawes may actually be pretty poor.
Now there is a challenge, get on some of the grit routes and do them no hands like Dawes has done.

You seem to be taking the pragmatic approach of the MCof S as weasel words that allow you to place bolts where the majority seem to think they should not go. Now if the people like Marshall had thought in those terms we may have had bolt runners and belays on Etive, something that maybe nice for those without the nerve to do the routes without them but would have ruined them as bold trips of their day.

One further thing, I watched someone do a classic E1 yesterday, he had no problems on it and thought it was nearer HVS. the problem is he did it with four runners that would protect him, unlike those of us who did it with no protection on the top half and would surely have been badly hurt or killed if we had fallen off. Now what happens when you place spaced bolts and someone decides they are too far apart and a route needs more protection? Are they allowed to do it, as people do with modern protection?

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Dave, you come across in writing as very arrogant. In life you may not be but you should certainly listen to the views of others. Perhaps when you are older you will look back at your own words and cringe.

Good climbers earn respect but it is not by climbing hard grades alone. For example I respect Doug Scott for the adventuruous nature of his climbing, his ethics and politics, his boldness, and his modesty.

In reply to Father Faff:

I'm not going to get involved in this debate in detail as I've only read the thread in a cursory form, and don't really care whether scotland is bolted or not as it's too far to drive.

I would like to point out that a large number of people are being very unfair to Dave on one specific point. Dave never once suggested that adventure in climbing is restricted to the cutting-edge. In fact his words imply that much of cutting-edge climbing has nothing to do with adventure. What he *did* say was that most ascents, whether trad or sport, have little adventure involved because the outcome of the climb is certain. This applies as much to the VS climber stitching his way up black slab @ stanage as it does to the well-rehearsed headpoint of an E8.

His point was that trad-climbing was only adventurous if people stick their necks out. It had nothing to do with grades, and the fact that so many of you immediately leapt to accuse him of elitism and arrogance says a lot more about the chips on your own shoulders than what Dave actually wrote. It certainly limits the impact of your advise to Dave to listen to the words of others.

That said, enjoy your debate. I hope no-one bolts Silver Tear.

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

I think you're getting quite a hard time on here. You've always seemed very reasonable in your postings generally (even if you're wrong ).

I know what you mean about adventure but consider a route soloed, then led with a rope and slings, then with a modern rack, finally the same route bolted and led with draws in place. Do you not think that there is a 'heirarchy of risk'? Even if the route is very easy, the risk is reduced the more protection is available.Yet placing pro is riskier than leading on bolts. Hence more adventurous.

I agree wholeheartedly about pegs in Scots winter though. Especially those left in place. Sheer hypocrisy.

In reply to Father Faff:

The be fair to Dave, he has said he won’t place bolts on Scottish winter venues which means he has listened to the voice of the masses to some extent. He still believes he is right and the majority wrong but so what, everyone is entitled to an opinion, as long as he doesn’t carry out his views I don’t care what he thinks.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Sort-of true (he limited the statement to trad). But when taken with the rest of the article (eg you cannot have a valid point of view about the rouites in question until you have done them), the implication was that he was talking about cutting edge climbers.

He has stated here that he wasn't, but the way the article is written (I've just re-read it) does suggest otherwise. If that wasn't his intention perhaps he ought to think a little harder in future about how his words might be misinterpeted.

In reply to SimonW:

Dear Simon

To be fair to Dave, he never said he would not do a route with bolts on a Scottish mountain, only he would not place bolts on a Scottish mountain. Most sport mixed route climbers never place bolts, but they use them none the less.

Norrie

In reply to Dave Mac:

The problem with bolting these mountain routes for me is simply the poaching of the lines off future generations of super bold trad climbers (summer or winter). You and Scott are good, but we don't know how good folk will get in the future with technology, training and mental approach...
You, as a sports science graduate must appreciate that?

Dave, how would you have felt if somebody had nicked up to Fiacaill buttress and whapped a line of bolts and a chain onto the Hurting? Would that have felt like a selfish thing for someone to have done? Denying you of that great trad ascent?

In your top 10 trad rock routes on Scotlandonline.com you specifically detail the danger factor of each route. I would hate to see routes like Dalriada getting the drill, and I fear that if we start bolting the mtns then some f@nny will eventually declare a new line 'unjustifiable' and bolt it, and then it's lost to somebody prepared to stick their neck out.

You might call me a hypocrite, but I have sport climbed on Scott's bolted crags and enjoyed it, but they are generally wee lowland ones- either without attractive trad lines or lacking gear. I don't see any problem with bolts in that setting. I wouldn't even mind folk tooling on them.

By the way, every time I push myself on trad (even at a meagre grade) I do it onsight and it feels pretty darn more exciting than a trip to IKEA!

Seriously, thanks for replying to this thread again. It must get annoying. Good luck on your project.

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

"Adventure has nothing to do with grade, it has to do with doubt."

i find this very relevent to my time climbing. i think for everyone to enjoy themselves in the hills or doing whatever makes them tick, we should not get bogged down with minor issues, get on with what we have a passion for doing and remember what climbing is all about in the first place. scotland is a big place. there is room for all of us.

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Dogma Dave? you are the one preaching a particular viewpoint backed up by sometimes suspect info and assumptions about people, their experience and views in a national mag. I'm sorry you have taken such offence, we are all entitled to our own views, but when we put them about so publicly and in tones which many find insulting is it any wonder that your getting some flak?
Cheers
neil

In reply to Norrie Muir:


If all climbers follow his stance then no bolts will be placed.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


The thread is following an article regarding specifically Scottish winter climbs and particularily sports mixed. It will never have any relevance to Stanage or any single pitch roadside outcrop climbs anywhere.

The problem may well be with the way it was written, rather than what he intended to say. However, the implication of his point about adventurism within trad climbing to me and many others DOES smack of elitism and grades.

Perhaps next time rather than a cursory glance you'll read before chipping in(whether its on your shoulder or not).

Iain

In reply to SimonW:

Dear Simon

Yes, words are cheap and statements can be disingenuous.

Norrie

In reply to Dave MacLeod: Thanks again for your reply. We are at the risk of going round in circles here so I'll keep it short.

If your intention was that the statement on adventure was not to be grade related then I think you worded it badly(I know I can't talk, but at least my drivle isn't being published in a mag). I think adventure is one of the major reasons people climb winter routes in the mountains, and for me at least as I said before the outcome is never certain, the risk high and a thin line between success and failure is often present.

I absolutely don't have an issue with sport vs trad regardless of the shite thats spouted on UKC. My experience of sport climbs is extremely limited but it is not an area I'm particularily drawn to. That said, by its very nature I think trad will always be more adventurous, specifically long winter routes, by the very nature of route finding/placing pro etc. But, at the end of the day that is just my opinion.

Hopefully we've given you some food for thought, maybe you'll reply, maybe not. Anyway, all the best for next season and I'll be at Kendal on the 19th

Iain

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Yes words are very cheap and judging by a lot of the shite posted on UKC they are getting cheaper by the day.

In reply to scawf vu:

(this reply was edited after first post)

Thanks for the reply. You state that the thread is not about rock climbing and my analogy was irrelevant. Dave's point was about adventure in climbing. I addressed this point. Again, It seems you replied to your own prejudices (that I am a sheffield-based exclusively grit climber out of his depth) rather than what was actually written.

Although I only gave this thread a cursory glance, I re-read daves article before replying. There is simply no implied criticism of climbers who do not operate at the cutting edge. There is plenty of criticism of climbers who do not participate in a given sphere, i.e sport mixed, voicing opinions on where that sphere is appropriate. You can agree or disagree with that as you wish, but the inference that it is predominantly lower grade climbers who
do not participate in many spheres of climbing was drawn by you, and never implied by Dave. You should therefore think seriously about whether you were actually justified in accusing him of being elitist and arrogant.

Your position on the bolting issue strikes me as balanced and reasonable. I suspect you and Dave would agree on many things. The disagreement in this case (to me) seems to be that you have misinterpreted aspects of Daves articles.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Nobody is saying that Sports climbing has no place (I think it but keep quiet...) [goak here]

The question really is whether or not bolted winter lines should exist in Scotland. A tiny number of activists say yes. A large number of activists and loads of 'ordinary' climbers say no.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

as i said, i don't really want to get involved in the larger debate as I

a) have no right to tell scottish people how to climb on their own rock

b) don't do, and don't want to do sport mixed

c) don't know what I'm talking about

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Don't let c) on that list stop you from commenting, it doesn't stop many on UKC...............

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

>There is plenty of criticism of climbers who do not participate in a given sphere, i.e sport mixed, voicing opinions on where that sphere is appropriate.

So the basic argument is 'don't knock it until you've tried it'?

There is a fundamental philosophy which many, many hillgoers (walkers, scramblers, climbers of all grades) sign up to which is that you should do everything to minimise your impact on the hill - don't build cairns, minimise erosion where you can, don't leave litter, don't disturb breeding habitats etc.

You can attack that philosophy if you like but it is a sincerely held one, by thousands if not millions of us.

In that case, the constituency who can rightly take an interest in the addition of permanent fixtures to a mountainside with the use of power tools is surely not a couple of dozen DT activists, or even just the winter climbing fraternity, but anyone with a sincere interest in the Scottish mountains, even if they have never tied on to a rope and never had any pretensions at all to 'adventure'.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Don't let a) stop you as the debate applies to anyone with an interest in winter climbing in Scotland.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

Dear Dave

I wonder if the SMC will retain the statement in their new guidebooks as they do in their latest ones - "The use of bolts on winter climbs is considered unacceptable."

Norrie

PS I would be interseted to hear from any SMC member, if their club is throwing away many years of upholding the Scottish winter climbing tradition of this statement.

In reply to Not Fozzz:

I think that's it in a nutshell.


That's a great philosophy and one I admire. I find it a bit of a smokescreen with the bolting debate though, as it can equally be applied to many other practises of climbers (using chalk, placing pegs, using gear at all in fact), but isn't.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


So in order to comment on an activity that you oppose in principle, you should have to take part in that activity first?

I don't approve of chipping, how many routes do I need to chip before my opionion is valid?

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


The fact that X is bad form, doesn't mean that Y isn't. If we lazily use X as an excuse for Y, we'll be doing Z next and just end up with a right bloody mess on our hands.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

It is not a case of don’t knock it until you have tried it but the impact that bolting winter climbs will have on the sport. I have absolutely no personal interest in the sort of routes Dave wants to bolt, I am simply not good enough to climb them but if I wanted to do some easier routes of that style I would choose a suitable venue i.e. a quarry or go abroad.

I don’t subsribe to the environmental arguments, it is the ethical ones that matter.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:
Dear midget

Then why all the posts, especially you have little to contribute to the issue, either for or against bolting Scottish mountain routes?

Norrie

In reply to Wendigo:

I'd say Scotland is a very small place with small hills.

The traditional ethic (and weather) are what give our climbs (and climbers) their bite.
We ought to respect our hills for future generations by passing them on in a clean state - if clipping bolts appeals then France is the place to go.
But I suppose its all been said before . .

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Presumably because he was getting irritated with lots of people arguing the toss about incorrect inferences. These bolt debates are important, but where the participants don't bother to try and understand the others side's points, much less their point of view, you get 140 posts which don't advance the debate one bit.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


FFS I have no idea where you're from or what you do. Merely that you're comments IMHO were not particularly relevant to a discussion on Scottish winter sports mixed climbing! As usually happens with threads regarding ethics North of the border some feckwit has to mention bloody peak grit!(In my opinion of course).


I did think seriously, I read the article several times prior to posting this and mulled it over. It would seem to me that I am not the only one who has taken Dave's article in the vain I've suggested. It may be that I've drawn inferences from it that weren't there...........or were they!


Iain

In reply to scawf vu:


Our posts seem to have become antagonistic. If i've annoyed you, I apologise. I have no desire to make enemies. I was just pointing out that your posts seem to always be relevant to pushing your point of view, and only sometimes relevant to what you say you're replying to.

Dave's point about adventure was about climbing in general as you know, because you've read and re-read (and thought about what you read). My analysis of his point also referred to climbing in general. I never stated it had anything to do with winter climbing in general or about sport mixed in particular, yet you went off on a "stanage has no relevance to scotland" rant, which is neither here nor there, except that it seems to be a pet hate of yours.

I only bring this up because it seems relevant in the light of your response to Dave's article. Again, apologies if I;ve caused offence.

In reply to all:

to Simon Caldwell:

"So in order to comment on an activity that you oppose in principle, you should have to take part in that activity first? I don't approve of chipping, how many routes do I need to chip before my opionion is valid?"

the point you make is valid. If you oppose sport mixed in principle, then by all means denounce it. However, Dave seems to take issue with the concept that sport mixed is not valid in Scotland. In this case it might be wise to have experienced an activity before saying where or where it is not appropriate. I have some sympathy with this point of view.


In reply to Not Fozzz:

"The fact that X is bad form, doesn't mean that Y isn't. If we lazily use X as an excuse for Y, we'll be doing Z next and just end up with a right bloody mess on our hands."

Agreed. But if we are to say, for example, "we won't let you do X because it is bad", we had better be sure to also stop people doing Y and Z, otherwise the people who want to do X might feel unfairly singled out, and do it anyway.

In reply to SimonW:

"It is not a case of don’t knock it until you have tried it but the impact that bolting winter climbs will have on the sport. I have absolutely no personal interest in the sort of routes Dave wants to bolt, I am simply not good enough to climb them but if I wanted to do some easier routes of that style I would choose a suitable venue i.e. a quarry or go abroad."

Damn! I have been dragged in despite myself. Implicit in your answer is that scottish mountain crags are not suitable. This is also my opinion. However, Daves point is that you are better qualified to deem if they are suitable if you have experience of mixed climbing. Obviously this only addresses one aspect of suitability (i.e will the routes be any good), and not the acceptibility to other users of that crag. It still remains a fairly valid point though. Say for example Ice Sculptors wanted to use the routes on the Ben to make pretty works of art. I would find this unacceptable, but I would need to try ice sculpting before telling them the Ben was unsuitable for any other reason than because it treads on my toes (although that's a pretty good reason).

In reply to Norrie:

"Then why all the posts, especially you have little to contribute to the issue, either for or against bolting Scottish mountain routes?"

Because I wanted to point out that Dave wasn't being elitist or arrogant. Just that. Other people have since asked me other questions, and my mother taught me to speak when spoken to.

In reply to Agent Moog:

Dear Agent

Maybe the midget missed this post "You have misunderstood my point. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but only an informed opinion can make a positive contribution to the debate.".

Norrie

PS I was quoting Dave MacLeod.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Strange, my copy definitely limits the comment to trad only, have I got a rare and valuable edition?

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Better retire quickly Stu as it seems you have lit Ians fuse, stick to putting up new routes in the lakes for people to do, how about a bolt on some of them?

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Why does informed equate to "can climb hard"? I take it to mean "has actually tried sport-mixed".

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Actually, he compares the adventure in trad (i.e none, unless you stick your neck out), and implicitly compares it to the assumption that there is no adventure in sport (wrong, as it can contain significant levels of doubt). That is dave's thesis as I understood it.

In reply to sutty:

Indeed it seems I have. Perhaps my posts are too agressively framed. I have apologised to him about this above. Some new routes would be nice, but I've always been to lazy to actually drill bolts.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

>Agreed.

Thank you

>But if we are to say, for example, "we won't let you do X because it is bad", we had better be sure to also stop people doing Y and Z, otherwise the people who want to do X might feel unfairly singled out, and do it anyway.

Wouldn't it be better if everyone acted with lots of voluntary self restraint in the first place so that 'stopping' anyone didn't even become an issue and we could all climb happily ever after?

In reply to Not Fozzz:


Difficult one that. Should I not do something, merely because it goes against someone elses wishes? Many bird-watchers don't want us to climb on some sea-cliffs at all. Should I exercise "self-restraint"?

We have to bear in mind when discussing bolting crags that saying "no bolts!" is stopping someone from doing what they really want to do. If we don't have both a) a good understanding of why they want to do it, and b) very good reasons for stopping them, we are in danger of misjudging the balance between how badly they want to do it, and how badly it will inconvenience us to let them. We may act unfairly as a result.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Dear midget

If you want that statement clarified, ask Dave MacLeod, he made it not me.

Even so, probably more climber who have climbed mixed sports abroad would and have said - no to bolts in Scottish winter routes.

Norrie

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Dear midget

This debate has been going on for a while now, I am glad you are taking an interest now. If, you took a bit of time finding out about the issue, you would see that all of the above has been addressed.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

which is exactly why I said above that I did not want to get involved. Thank you for taking us round exactly full circle.

<sarcasm>this is entirely unlike and bolt debate I have ever been involved in</sarcasm>.

I just think we could all listen to each other a bit more. Is this really an open and considered dialog? And can we ever hope to reach any consensus without one?

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Dear midget

This debate resulted from someone going ahead and bolting a route on a winter crag, without caring what other people thought.

There was no consensus, he has stated on numerous occassions, that he will continue to bolt regardless what other people think. Now, is that an "open and considered dialog?".

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

no.

In reply to Norrie Muir: Exactly Norrie.

This debate has been ongoing(and round and round in circles) for ages, and despite an overwhelming majority against any bolting in the Scottish hills, that 'someone'you mention, carried on with his own agenda, regardless of the majority view.

This is the same person who, on being told by Dave McGimpsey that he'd chopped the bolts, posted a thread on ScottishClimbs with the heading ..Let the War Begin(or some such shite).

Debate? Bit pointless I think, when someone is hellbent on doing what they want regardless of any other opinions.

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

Dear midget

So, you see what the "Traditionalists" are up against. It is not an anti-bolt v bolt debate. Bolted sports routes have their place in Scotland, but not on a winter mountain/hill crag.

Norrie

In reply to wcdave:


Which is why I found it more than a little bizarre that Dave McLeod felt able to say to Dave McGimpsey: "The only thing I would accuse you of is not listening to others wishes." As far as I am concerned, Dave McGimpsey's action in chopping the bolts was entirely to do with supporting the wishes of the majority in the face of the unwelcome unilateral action of that 'someone'.

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

Dave, where's the adventure in placing bolts?

In reply to midgets of the world unite:
>In this case it might be wise to have experienced an activity before saying where or where it is not appropriate. I have some sympathy with this point of view.
I haven't read the original article as I don't buy the comic. However, I don't see what makes Scottish Winter Climbing different to other walks of life where one doesn't have to do something to have an informed opinion and dare I suggest a more independent opinion on an issue. I don't know too many lawyers who have first hand experience of murder, bank robbery or drug smuggling but they seem to do ok at having an independent view on the rights and wrongs of all three.

I can't see why on earth a very small group of top climbers playing a very different game to the rest of us should dictate what should happen on winter mountain routes.

Ah, a voice of reason, an open and considered dialogue? you've got to be kidding. As you may have noticed Dave Mc writes open and considered dialogues, unfortunately he doesn't usually get the same back. And I've never seen him being reduced to personal insults yet.
Bill
P.S. Who the f--k cares what he's done on grit

In reply to Bill Davidson:

You can't write a dialogue mate.

In reply to Bill Davidson:

Bolter or chopper Dave Mc?

In reply to wcdave:


I personally consider the bolting of Beinn Udlaidh to have been a positive action. It made the discussion real instead of purely theoretical. It means that the points that have been made since then are far more meaningful than if this was still a purely theorectical discussion. I would consider the bolting and chopping of those bolts to have been a small price to pay for that.

I neither agree nor disagree with the chopping of the bolts. I don't have a major or well defined stance on the broader issue. I would not be happy to see bolts in any of the areas I visit in the hills. I cannot imagine I would even notice them when walking as you don't on low level crags so would only be affected by it if I were to begin climbing winter routes. Even then would there be retro-bolting of winter routes going on? I doubt it.

Do we really want bolts up there though? Is that a bit too close to the bone when considering how negatively we already manipulate the lower areas of the Highlands for our own entertainment? The high hills are special and should not be treated this way. As I have no plans to use any bolts in the mountains in the Highlands anytime soon then I would say no to it. That is a purely selfish and personal reason.

I do however consider the original bolting to have progressed this highly contientious issue (no more in one direction than the other) more than any MCofS meeting ever will.

Ands

P.S. I cannot say I am massively happy about some of the horrible erosion caused by the crampons of "trad" winter climbers either having seen some out of order pictures on the MCofS site. In fact I can truely say that I am more pissed off about this than I would ever be about the Beinn Udlaidh bolts. I am sure only more erosion would be caused if more mixed were to be done along with the trad winter climbing. Where should the line be drawn?

In reply to Ands:

I haven't seen the pictures you describe and am prepared to be persuaded otherwise; but my current feeling about this is that crampon scratches eventually disappear through natural weathering, whereas bolts do not.

In reply to Ands:

I have just imagined someone bolting something on one of the Skye hills at the height required to create a mixed route and am thinking "do it and I will personally kill you". I am possibly also thinking that I would not like to see bolts anywhere on Skye be it low level or not. In reality I very much doubt anyone is suggesting bolting anything at that height in Skye. It is a contentious issue is the best I can do...

Ands

In reply to Ands: regardless of the area to be bolted there will always be 2 groups of people who either agree or disagree with it!!!its human nature!
its nice that it can atleast be discussed on forums like this in a sensible manner.
nice of you to reply to the threads dave in a rational way but you forget one important fact,the majority tend to rule in modern day society whether you like it or not!!

rich

In reply to Dave McG:

Dave,

I'm sure you dont need me to tell you that the chopping of the Udlaidh bolts was entirely justified. Myself and the vast majority of winter climbers applaud your actions. You can also count on my support and assistance in any further chopping required. People keep harping on about the "debate". There isnt one. It's impossible to have a debate with someone who has already stated that they will continue regardless of any concensus.

Cheers

In reply to beastofackworth:


I totally agree but where are is the line drawn? The "anti-bolting in the mountains" people who have posted to this thread are cliaming to represent the majority. I have no doubt they do. I suspect they represent the vast majority but wouldn't go as far as saying it is Scott Muir and Dave MacLeod against the rest of the UK hill going population... Is it actually possibly to get a representative figure as to who supports which stance on the arguement? Personally I think that the members of the MCofS should be polled. If anyone is that interested in this issue then they should either be a member already or would be commited enough to become a member to have their vote count. It would not include other (non "mountaineering") potentially interested parties mind you.

For that matter should it be a majority that decides on what happens in relation to this issue? Should this (so far) claimed majority restrict the wishes of a smaller number of equally dedicated individuals from using a small part of a large "comodity" to satisfy their requirements?

I would be very interested to hear of anyone who would support the creation of mixed routes in Scotland this winter. Dave MacLeod seems to be interested in climbing some such routes in Scotland though is not going to develop any which is in my opinion the correct stance at such a sensitive time. This site and scottishclimbs.com are fairly representative (on a minaturised level) of the UK climbing scene as a whole and I haven't really seen anyone being very positive about mixed route development other than Dave/Scott. Are the others who would like to see these routes developed too scared of coming out and admiting it or do they simply not exist and we really are talking about Dave and Scott V's The World!

A can of worms. I suspect if someone took the time they could break the whole issue down into its constituant parts and come to more of an informative conclusions than I am coming to here (yes I know not difficult thanks). That man will not be me any time soon. There is a great subject for someones thesis at uni. Something bloody worthwhile for a change instead of the usual pish that gets asked about on here by the climbing related thesis seekers.

Ands

Tam Weir is on Grampian. I am off to learn from the great man.

In reply to Ands:

quote "scottishclimbs.com are fairly representative"

That is complete bollox Ands. Scottishclimbs is predominantly sport and bouldering orientated

Cheers

In reply to Chris McDaid:

I meant between the two sites they represent the "climbing community" (I hate that term) quite well. Either way I have not I cannot say I remember seeing anyone other than Dave and Scott being positive about the development of mixed routes in Scotland on either site after trawling through page after page of threads on the subject over the past year. in fact that may not be the case I think I saw a few (maybe no more than one!) person saying that they would like to go and check out Crossroads.

Ands

P.S. You might find the content of scottishclimbs.com rather sports and bouldering orientated but I think you will find a lot of the people that post there to be dedicated trad climbers. It is a lot easier to create guides for sports and bouldering areas than trad as you will find the SMC got there first...

In reply to Ands:

Quote "It is a lot easier to create guides for sports and bouldering areas than trad"

Again, complete bollox. The trad guide I contributed took me all of 15 mins to do. Still waiting on them putting the others I've done on the site.

Cheers

In reply to Dave MacLeod:

At risk of coming over as a fawning acolyte, could I say that this ...

99% of trad ascents are scarcely more adventurous than getting lost in the aisles of Ikea

... is f*cking hilarious. It almost made me want to subscribe to Climb.

In reply to tobyfk:

Personally I have found Ikea more terrifying than sea of Vapours.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:

I have avoided ever going into Ikea, is that a good thing?

Is that the place people buy bolts for climbs?

In reply to sutty:

its where my swedish colleuges gets all their swedish chocolate and peanut snacks, i even heard one of them bought a chair at the place.

In reply to mik:

Nice hotdogs, only 70p aswell...............

In reply to sutty:

I've only been once. It's the equivalent of climbing on White Scar. Once is enough. Never go back. Sudder at the name.

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:


Strange man! It's great...................

I can only see that the Scottish scene has itself to blame by allowing bolts on mountain crags back in the early '90s. To say that the Tunnel Walls is not a mountain crag is crazy in my opinion. It's right next to the Buchaille! And it's ironic as the sport routes on there were totally behind the times. I've done one of them and they're ledge shuffles - not very interesting sport climbing.

Despite the odd exception down in Devon, in England and Wales it's pretty clear that bolts are allowed on limestone and slate and that's about it. You've got various bolted crags now in Scotland on 'mountain' rock so it is difficult to draw the line. Plus you throw in winter and summer bolted lines and you have this massive grey area and no consensus.

For someone outside the Scottish scene, I can't see that sport mixed has a place in British (Scottish) winter climbing, apart from the odd chossy quarry. I've done some and think it's pretty much devoid of 'craft' - you can't learn to lead VIII overnight, but various sport climbers have pathed M12+ immediately. I don't understand why MaCleod et al don't just focus on pushing it out ground up? The argument that you need to be hanging off your spurs on a sport mixed route to then go and apply it on traditonal routes just seems like a lame excuse to me. There must be so many winter climbs still to do and so many 'adventures' to be had doing Xs ground up? But then I guess to get the XII grade tick or whatever, maybe it's worth drilling a few routes to achieve that end?

In reply to SimonW:

Full English breakfast - 95p

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor: Tunnel Wall is actually ON the Buachaille. just had to point that out Tom!

In reply to scawf vu: this is a bit like the Northern Ireland peace process......going nowhwere and full of entrenched opinions.

In reply to yer maw: so when are the feckers going to decommission their Hiltis? And I wont believe them until I see video evidence of said decommissioning.

In reply to Erik B:

Video evidence eh, so are you the Ian Paisley of UKC?

In reply to SimonW: I think they're in "The Trad Hand Commandos"

In reply to scawf vu:
how many of the people on here have read the full article?

remember he,s speaking from his point of veiw !

its like is said many times everybody is entitled to THEIR opinion including dave it just happens that he is a high profile (very talented!!) person and i,d have thought that some people are of the same opinion.

In reply to jas wood:

Dear jas

I am waiting for very talanted people to support Dave's opinion.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I always thought the meatballs with cranberry jelly were very tasty.

In reply to Norrie Muir: Why would that matter Norrie.

You've already said that you don't agree with the self elected elite making decisions that go against the existing norm - despite the fact that this is exactly what happened when Tunnel Wall got bolted in the first place.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

Have you looked at your SMC guidebooks to see what the policy on bolting is? You should not believe what is written in climbing magazines, the standard of journalism makes the Sun look good.

Norrie

In reply to Norrie Muir:
doesn,t you son scott support this type of statement ?

In reply to jas wood:

<yawn>

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre:
no show without punch

In reply to jas wood:


You’re an incredibly eloquent chap aren’t you? What was your statement in reference to? Maybe if you explain that then we can get some real perspective of your incredible powers of communication.

Ands

In reply to jas wood:

Dear jas

Please don't let personalities come into this thread, otherwise someone less polite than me would say you are a woodentop.

Norrie

PS I have made a few statements , so which are you referring too, as I am not a mind reader?

In reply to Norrie Muir:
YOU stated that no talented person has supported daves article to which i replied that scott (your son) is of the same opinion is he not ? and for somebody to claim he isn,t talented would be sour grapes ?

In reply to jas wood:

Dear jas

You replied whis this "doesn,t you son scott support this type of statement ?" without a referrence to any of my statements. Now, at least I have a vague idea what you ment.

Please tell me what young Scott said in any post on this thread to support Dave's article?

Norrie

In reply to jas wood:


Is crack cocaine cheap in the North East of England?

Ands

In reply to Ands:
you also one of norrie,s bully henchmen?
oh the old lets see his profile routine you chaps really are sad !

In reply to Norrie Muir:
IS scott of the same opinion ? (question mark)

In reply to jas wood:

I wouldn't go as far as henchman no.

You made an incredibly stupid comment with no reference made to what the hell you meant so I felt you deserved all you got and was more than happy to provide it.

Due to your level of stupidity I would make a comments like that no matter who you were talking about/to.

Ands

In reply to jas wood:

I will stop bullying you now and leave you alone. It is not fair to pick on the already massively disadvantaged.

Ands

In reply to jas wood:

Dear jas

If you mean does young Scott have the same opinion of Dave's that if the majority are against bolting, then he will not bolt a crag, then no.

Next question and try not to make it so cryptic.

Norrie

In reply to Ands:
oh thanks can i go now

In reply to Norrie Muir:


Ha your a crafty old bugger!

In reply to jas wood:


Yes your best to. I cannot beat Norrie in an argument and English is my first language (alegedly!)...

Ands

In reply to jas wood:

Dear jas

Why, is it your bedtime?

Norrie

In reply to Dave Hunter, Rock + Run:
Me too, wife spends money here, I never spent a penny on the Sea.....

In reply to Simon Panton:

Why does everyone keep citing Tunnel wall? The main point of this debate is the bolting of mountain routes in Scotland and I dont really consider the routes on Tunnel Wall mountain routes. However, if the Tunnel wall is continually cited as "there are already bolts on mountain routes in Scotland", then theres much more chance of these bolts being chopped than the creation of sports mixed routes being accepted. This would then remove the perceived anomoly. There is very strong support for the mountain routes remaining bolt free, and the real danger in this case is that the creation of sports mixed routes may result in a bolt war which may escalate out of the winter domain. The creation of Crossroads alienated and outraged trad and sports climbers alike, so lets not lose sight of the real issue here. Put simply, mountain routes (summer or winter) remaining bolt free, regardless of whether "the saviour of scottish climbing" keeps bolting. There are plenty of active winter climbers (myself included) who will do their utmost to maintain a bolt free mountain environment.

Cheers

In reply to Chris McDaid:


Your very much a reactionary aren't you? A fantasists also. A great 'what if' arguement that has no place in a serious discussion.

Thin end of the wedge anyone?

Ands

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

I think Tom's contribution has been about the most useful here as he must qualify under Dave Macleod's suggested qualification standard in Climber, and Tom still thinks Scottish sports mixed sounds a silly idea.

I have done easy sports mixed in Finland and definitely see the attraction of doing big moves from rock to curtains of ice (for me this has only been done on a top rope). It's aesthetically pleasing and very exciting. It is, afterall, exactly where M-style climbing started from - i.e. Octopussy and various earlier less-famous routes. I don't know if having tried M climbing, as well as normal Scottish winter climbing, gives me entry to Dave Macleod's debate?

But those kind of routes isn't what seems to have been bolted in Scotland. Crossroads looks like a 'normal' Scottish mixed route just with bolts. Tom's comment that the tunnel wall routes aren't good sports climbs seems very pertinent here - I just don't see how the Scottish routes are ever likely to make good M-style routes. Scotland has a few once-every-few-years free-standing or -hanging ice problems - Feeding Frenzy, The Shroud and Mega Route X (as they were both originally done), that Garth route at Creag Dubh (Cup of Tea?), that VII route that Scott Muir did with Graham Little a few years all back spring to mind - I'm sure there are others and all were done with trad gear.

Scotland doesn't have the right weather to have good M-routes. If anything is 'holding back' Scottish climbing from that direction it's the weather, but that's also what makes it great, different and challenging in a different way.

Dave Mac. - I have mates through the GUM club, whose opinion I respect, who know you and say that you are a good guy - so please don't take this as personal to you at all. I just think you made your point in Climber in a way that I could only read as elitist, and secondly that I simply don't agree with.

I know that the 'uncertain outcome' idea doesn't need to mean hard. I've climbed a biggish face of mountain in artic Norway that only just touched Scottish III, but a dangerous descent, remoteness, the cold all made it as committing as anything else I've done - but many won't see it as that; they will see it as meaning simply "harder than you". I think also you will fall into your own rhetorical trap that as others point out, Greater Range hardmen of the like of Steve House or Marko Prezejl, or even our own Parnell or Kenton Cool could say what uncertain outcomes are there in a one pitch scottish route an hours walk from the car?

Finally there is a glaring issue you don't address and that is your own professional interest as someone who makes their living from climbing. I don't mean to suggest you don't love climbing (actually, as we all know no one gets rich from climbing, it suggests that you love doing it dearly), but your Climber article doesn't answer critics who say you have a vested interest in doing something in the UK that attracts attention (new and big numbers) rather than just travelling to France, Italy or Canada to try hard routes that only a minority of UK climbers will have even heard of.

In reply to Ands:

Ands behave yourself. Educate yourself first before spouting on here, or at least do a little research. Must you continually shoot yourself down in flames as you did earlier in this thread? Reactionary? Yes of course I am. I've reacted to the unilateral decision to bolt Udlaidh, as you have reacted to my reaction. No?

Cheers

In reply to TobyA:

Or rather going against the grain.

So you write a provocative article in one of the magazines. There's very little feedback there, the letter pages are edited (read filtered).

This gets picked up on UKClimbing.com...where anyone can ask the author questions regardless of how hard you climb or who you are. A quantum leap in honesty despite personal slurs.

The debate now rages.

Whatever is said you go and do what you want.

Reports surface of your activities, or you submit a report to the mags or UKClimbing.com.

The debate rages. Content is irrelevant.

End result, lots of publicity. Logos are exposed. Climber benefits.

m

In reply to Mick Ryan:

Dear Mick

Do I send you or Tom the invoice for my fee for getting UKC mentioned in one of those climbing magazines?

Norrie

In reply to Mick Ryan:

I reckon what you said applies to Scott, not Dave. If Scott doesn't maintain a good level of M style climbing at world level it'll be bye bye Red Bull etc.

I would like to see them both continue to perform at high levels but not at the expense of the majority.
Sport Mixed is totally unsuitable to Scotland, as Toby said.

In reply to Chris McDaid: The reason why people keep mentioning Tunnel Walls is because it matters. I don’t know if you were around at the time, but Norrie certainly was, and it strikes me as hypocritical to be so vociferous in your opposition to the development of the odd sport mixed route when this was allowed to occur.

My point really is that when you knee jerk against the new breed, just remember that we’ve been here before, and no doubt in generations to come we will revisit similar arguments. Sometimes the radical changes lead into a cul-de-sac, but sometimes they provide a positive outcome for future generations. (Example: the obsession with headpointing and top rope practice that routes like the Indian Face ushered in. During the 90s I increasingly viewed this as a negative approach to climbing, but then it occurred to me that all these pre-practiced routes were actually a gift to the future gifted onsighter.)

Nobody honestly knows where sport mixed routes will lead us, perhaps these routes are a load of bullshit? But perhaps not? A couple of years back during an ice climbing trip to Cogne (during which I met Scott) I went to the Haston Cave and I was amazed, confused and disturbed by what I saw (and climbed). Pretty much the same emotions I felt when I first went out to France and saw gangs of uber fit euro sport climbers lapping routes that I couldn’t even dog. Sport climbing turned out to be valid, maybe in years to come we will think the same of sport mixed?

Somebody joked earlier about bolting up a section of the Black Ladders. Now that would be truly outrageous because in the Welsh mountains or sea cliffs (save for the obvious exception of the Llandudno limestone crags) there is no comparable history of drilling (although there have been occasional bolt placements, often by the most ‘trad’ climbers of all: Pat Littlejohn, John Redhead to name but a few). The bolts would be torn out just as the Parliament House cave bolts were recently. Personally it wouldn’t bother me that much, providing you couldn’t clip any of them from an existing trad/conventional winter route.
I also thought the PC route might have yielded an amazing sport route. Sacrilege? No not really, when you consider that there are bolted sport routes just around the corner in the Breakwater Quarry.

For the last 20 years the doom merchants have been predicting the demise of traditional values in British climbing. I see little evidence of that in North Wales, maybe it is different in Scotland.
However, nobody is talking about retro-ing existing routes or damaging the character of adventurous crags. Just allowing cutting edge climbers to do their thing, that’s all.

Toby A attacks Dave for hiding his commercial interests. This is laughable really when you consider Dave’s incredible track record, i.e. a rake of ground breaking first ascents and incredible repeats. Dave MacLeod doesn’t need to push his profile through big number mixed sport routes – he is already a major player irrespective of any forays into this aspect of climbing.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

You have written a lengthy peice there and basically you think it OK for bolting to take place in Scottish mountains/hills but not in Wales.

Things have move on in Scotland, yet you harp back to Tunnel Wall being some sort of a halcyon period in Scottish climbing, it was a blind alley.

Can you come up with something that justifies bolting Scottish winter climbs, in a Scottish context, rather than the ramble you posted above?

Norrie

In reply to Chris McDaid:


Seriously. Come on. You have to admit that is just utter sensationalist scare mongering pish. Do yoiu get tips from Bush and Blair? The Hilti is a wepon of mass destruction. Bolting terrorists! You sound like an old wifey or a Sun reader or something. "Ooh there's going to be a bolt war you know. I hear they're drafting bolters from the continent to fight the cause!"

Bollocks.

Ands

In reply to Ands:

I'd like to point out again that I would consider myself anti-bolts in the Scots hills mostly because I consider the high hills to be sacred (not the right word, special?). I do however feel the urge to post if only to try and counterbalance the hysterical anti-bolt rhetoric of a small number of the posters on this thread and many others like it.

In other words I think bolting the hills is wrong too but there is no need to make shit up about bolting wars to prove this point.

Ands

In reply to Norrie Muir:

Other way around Norrie. UKC.com has far more reach than Climb or Climber mags combined.

In reply to Scawf/ Toby A:

Climb magazine have seen fit to publish four pages of self publicity and arrogant bull from Mr Macleod in this months comic

I think Tom's contribution has been about the most useful here as he must qualify under Dave Macleod's suggested qualification standard in Climber

Could someone explain whether this excellent sounding article was in Climb or Climber? I could imagine renewing my subscription to Climber but the who-vomited-on-this-page approach to graphics design at Climb (and Over The Edge before that) gives me a migraine.

In reply to tobyfk:

Climber

In reply to tobyfk: Toby, if I can find a scanner that works I'll send you a copy. The mag is sitting on the desk next to me here at work.

In reply to Ands:


You must accept there is a very big danger that if bolts become accepted in some areas of winter climbing they will spread. It has happened before eg. Yorkshire Limestone. Even if you believe that bolt wars are sensationalist piss, then you are naive to suggest that their potential spread is not a major issue.

In reply to Ands: I wish somebody would bolt your trap shut mate! You have officially one the UKC winter forum 'Award for Contradiction 2005'..

In reply to Simon Panton:


Simon - perhaps some of the people who don't want to see bolts on Beinn Udlaidh also don't think bolts are right on Creag A'Bhancair. Arguably they are simply showing good manners and a live and let live attitude in not going and removing them? It's a silly argument to say the sins of the fathers (in this case the 1980s Scottish climbing community) stop the sons and daughters from being able to legitimately hold an opinion on the issue. If this was the case all Welsh climbers are now suspect because of Redhead's tortured ejaculation!


I didn't "attack" him - read what I said again please. I said he didn't raise or answer the point that, as a professional climber, many might see (even if it simply isn't true) that he could have a vested interest in this debate. Dave wrote in Climber:

"I also share Cubby's view that certain quarters of the climbing fraternity, who lack experience in all aspects of climbing, yet feel in a position to dictate (both verbally and directly by removing bolts) what the rest of us should do, present the true threat for the future of the sport in Scotland".

If that isn't a blatant attempt to deligitimise the opinion of his opponents, I don't know what is. As I pointed out earlier, this just opens Macleod to the criticism that he hasn't got experience of "all" types of climbing (hence my House and Prezelj comment earlier - or indeed McGimpsey's rhetorical suggestion that he has climbed the North Face of the Eiger whilst Macleod has not, so does that give him some sort of moral high ground?). This of course will just collapse in a morass of willy-waving, but I think that just goes to demonstrate the weakness of Macleod's point that there should be some sort of entry qualification to join the debate. In the article Dave quotes from a 1970 book on democratic theory (incidently Dave - if you are still reading this - as a boring political scientist myself, my attention was grabbed by that reference. But despite much searching of university library catalogues + Amazon.com, I can't find the book and author from the reference. Could you give us a fuller reference?), which I suspect is taken rather out of context because Dave seems to suggest that majorities can impose their will on minorities and that this is inherently wrong. Dave writes:

"The majority can stifle individuality and therefore progress."

I agree with Dave that this can be true: an example would be in the US where the majority who are morally conservative are stiffling progress towards gay marriage. But of course, it all depends on what your idea of "progress" is: I think gay marriage would be progress but tens of millions of decent Americans will disagree with me. Simalarly, the will of majority is stopping the introduction of polygamy into western societies. Men who want to have numerous wives may think this is stiffling progress, but on that I would disagree (and I don't think I need to have been married to three women to justify my opinion, even if it might at times be fun!). Whether bolted "M-routes" in Scotland is a good idea or not, is a matter of opinion, just like these examples above, and Dave's article suggests that those who haven't got the same climbing experience as him can't hold valid opinions. I take umbrage at that.


In most respects I agree, but if Dave wants to question the legitmacy of others' opinions based on experience, I think he needs to address this point. One of his arguments is that sports-mixed will lead to bigger and better winter trad-onsights. This may well be true, but then one comes to the question: is what he is asking for basically anything other than a training facility to allow him to go on and do bigger and better things? And it is not cynical then to ask that as a sponsored climber, does he not need to do "bigger and better things" to carry on in his job? The fact that the two leading proponents for sport-mixed in Scotland, Dave and Scott M., are both sponsored climbers; whilst top activists in the traditional sphere - Robertson, Richardson, Heseldon, Davidson, the Bensons, etc etc - do other things to make a living is going to raise eyebrows. Dave is completely entitled to make a living as he does, but he needs to address that when he makes an argument like this.

Dave has used his outstanding climbing talent to access the bully-pulpit of a four page article in Climber. The article is peppered with statements that clearly are there to provoke debate - the Ikea one stands out in particular - so no one should be suprised if debate is what he gets.

At the end of the day, bolts in Beinn Udlaidh aren't the downfall of western civilisation. For the majority of us, this is our hobby - an important part of our lives no doubt, but not the be-all and end-all of who we are. Hopefully we can keeps some sense of perspective. My comments to Dave aren't meant to be personal attacks in any way - but I do think they are issues that need to be addressed before I personally at least, can be convinced that going against the wishes of a clearly large majority of Scottish winter climbers can be a good thing.

In reply to TobyA:

Nicely put.

In reply to TobyA: Thank you for two replies that say many of the things I'd have liked to! I must admit to some extent these discussions go round in circles, Dave though has said he will respect the current wishes to not place bolts on high crags. In the future things may or may not change, but for now at least, it would seem to me that the vast majority of winter climbers in Scotland don't want to see bolts. Also, perhaps some of us were overly sensitive to Dave's comments in his article or, maybe they were written to provoke reaction as Toby says or were merely poorly selected to convey a thought. I don't think many people genuinely dislike or even hate the two main characters in this tale, and I am sure the vast majority have been amazed at their recent record of new routes. Personally winter can't come soon enough, my own meagre aspirations would like to push the grade up a wee bit further, but we'll have to wait and see.

Here's hoping for a good season
Cheers
Iain

PS Dave Mac, mines a pint of Guiness

In reply to TobyA:
Can you cc me on that toby? I'd really like to read it but we don't get CLIMB in NZ and i'm not back for another two weeks yet.
Cheers
James e (jaechamonix hotmail com)

In reply to TobyA:

cheers - sadly neither WH Smith or Borders have thought to set up shop here yet.

In reply to TobyA: Just a couple of points:

Firstly I think there is a massive difference between bolting new mixed sport routes (providing they do not alter the character of adjacent routes) and retro-bolting existing routes. In the right place, I can see the sense in the former, but I do not approve of the latter – history is important after all.

I just don’t understand the sense of panic. Do people really expect the Scottish mountains to be retro grid bolted? Do you really believe that is going to happen?


Apologies to Norrie in advance (I know he doesn’t like discussing anything south of the border), but I feel this is relevant. It’s a quote from John Redhead’s 1980s article: Great Wall (see the epilogue in Welsh Rock if you’ve got a copy):

“Of tradition, the words here are plentiful, joined together for your indoctrinal logic, steeped in the establishment quagmire. I care very little, play to my own parameters. However abstract these lines appear, they form a discipline.
An historical account? The Black Cliff is your neat package. Indulge yourself; Boysen Quasimodo-esque, a cartoon-photograph on Troach, swinging on a long sling. Climbing?
Banner on an attempt on Troach, spending hours chipping a spike. I don’t believe it! Braithwaite hammering nuts into cracks; Yates pre-placing chocks; and Crew, so desperately obsessed to burn Brown off, abseiling, chipping, pre-placing. Is this comedy? Are they real? Still with the audacity to talk about the ethics of today…”

Just history repeating itself. I keep referring to history because I object to the demonising of Dave and Scott, when they are merely part of a long tradition of experimentation and dissension.

I was watching the Scorcese Dylan film last night. Dylan unleashed his electric sound on a traditional folk audience (the birth of modern rock music some say) and is greeted with a shout of: Judas! Frustrated and defiant he turns to the band and tells them to “Play f*cking loud!” And the world changed forever.

In reply to Simon Panton:

And when the band stopped playing all that was left was in the heads of the audience.

But what's your point? That nobody can comment because we're all ethical transgressors? That everyone should just do what they want? Are we all Dylans? What about those that just don't like his voice, electric or acoustic mode?

Anyway, Dylan playing was just giving whether you like it or not. Bolting (and pegging, chipping and the rest) is taking.

Grid bolting? Who knows? Perhaps for a summer comparison you should look at a topo of Rockdust with the bolt-lines in and one with just the previous routes on gear? Who's to say that won't be the model?

In reply to Simon Panton: funnily enough the Dylan film reminded me about this, and it reminded me that placing Bolts in the Scottish hills could never be equated to the musical and artistic revolution instigated by a maverick like Dylan. Bolts on Scottish winter routes is more comparable to the Stock Aitken and Waterman fordist pop music revolution of the 90's.

In reply to Simon Panton:

So how would you feel if someone decided to bang a line of bolts on Cloggy for a new winter line, just the one line mind, wouldn’t affect any other route and they wouldn’t place any more bolts, they promise?

I think most rational people are willing to debate the issue and are agreed that a concensus has to be reached and to be fair to Dave he is willing to take this approach even if he doesn’t agree with the concensus. Most rational people don’t have a problem with this. Scott’s attitude was much more aggressive, he will do what he wants regardless of what anyone else thinks seemed to be the general gist. If you call that experimentation and dissention then so be it but if we accept that as ok, then what is there to stop someone using the same premise and banging a line of bolts on Stanage, Scafell or Cloggy? Would you feel this was fair game?

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

One of the reasons I don’t get involved with the hypocrisy of ethics and hero worship down south is I would be accused of ignorance, interference and not knowing what I was talking about. There are a few climbers who did Scottish winter climbs who should hold their heads in shame over their ascents, that does not mean we are all tarred with the same brush, this is where I have stated to young Scott that I agree with him, it is the bolting that I disagree about.

One can move forward/progress without bolting on Scottish mountains/hills.

So just because a few climbers cheated in the past does not mean that we abandon the ethics of Scottish winter climbs to suit the few.

Norrie

PS I am not a Dylan man, more of a Sex Pistols man.

In reply to Ands:

FFS Ands, your ability to contradict yourself repeatedly knows no bounds. It would appear from your posts that you just want to be everybodys pal. Fact is, I know the strength of feeling out there on this issue, and if the odd winter line gets bolted, it may well spread, which would result in bolts getting chopped, reinstated, chopped, reinstated etc etc. Scaremongering? No. It MAY happen thats all. Or perhaps you dont get the subtle difference between the words may and will.

Cheers

In reply to Erik B:
Bolts on Scottish winter routes is more comparable to the Stock Aitken and Waterman fordist pop music revolution of the 90's.

Dear Erik

One of young Scott's justification of bolted routes in winter is for mass participation, so you music analogy is qiute apt.

Norrie

PS Who is Kylie?

In reply to Norrie Muir: the lass with the ass

In reply to pray4war:


That's certainly one way of describing her, I much preferred Bananarama, mind you they haven't aged well......

In reply to Simon Panton:

It's happened at Portland, with retrobolting pretty much regardless of the "consensus" Dorset Bolt Agreement. OK, Scotland is big and Portland is small. The Alps are even bigger and have been extensively retrobolted. Yes it could happen in Scotland.

In reply to Stefan Lloyd: My impression is that much of the impetus for bolting in the Alps came from the guides.

If the Glenmore Lodge instructors are anything like the Plas y Brenin instructors (seems quite likely if you consider IP's influence) then retro grid bolting will never happen in the Scottish mountains.

In reply to Simon Panton:

No need for the bolts if everyone's been trained how to put a toprope on routes?

In reply to Norrie Muir: Perhaps I should have further clarified the Dylan example: the arrival of rock music was not the death knell for folk music. There is still a thriving folk music scene, is there not? (You're probably too punk to answer that one)

I absolutely agree that we should not abandon the ethics of Scottish winter climbing. Believe it or not, but these ethics are as dear to my heart as they are to yours. Some of the most memorable and deep climbing experiences that I have ever had have been on Scottish winter routes. I believe it is because of the very fact that there is such a strong base of respect for traditional ethics that we can afford to be liberal about how progression takes place.

As for a bolted route on Cloggy – as long it didn’t affect any existing routes (and it was done with eco bolts to avoid unsightly rust streaks) I wouldn’t necessarily mind. However, considering the intensity of development this would be a bit tricky unless you went to the more obscure parts of the cliff.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

You should learn to make your point clear in the first place and not waffle. My point is clear and does not need clarifying, no bolts on Scottish mountains/hills, bolts are acceptable on low level crags.

Norrie

In reply to Simon Panton:

Interesting, my point on bolts on Gloggy was more around the ethical issues of it rather than the pratical. Would you have been happy for the Indian Face to be bolted in the mid 1980's then?

In reply to Simon Panton:


I'm not panicked in the slightest, and I don't think there will be grid bolting. I am mainly interested in poking at the arguments on both sides and trying to see what the weak points are - perhaps that is because my job is basically doing that, only the subject matter is different. Some have tried to demonise Dave Macleod but I think they have failed. Dave's record stands for all to see, clearly as well as being a very good climber he loves the sport as well. But those things alone don't make him right. Scott Muir is a different case. His statements have been rather extreme and he doesn't seem to have much regard for the opinion of others.

I should add though - whilst we're on the subject of experience - that I lived and climbed in Finland for over five years now and have seen the very delicate and at times brittle accommodation between sport and trad climbing. Here virtually all cliffs are a mix of sport and trad climbs, and the two can coexist side by side but "happy coexistence" would be far from the truth. I imagine the types of arguments faced here in rock climbing might be seen in Scottish winter climbing if some bolting is accepted in some places.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Indeed, and there are also people who might make a better living if Scottish climbing were more accessible to "convenience climbers".

In reply to SimonW: No, I think it is better as a bold trad route rather than a balancey 7b+. It is a shame that it was beaten into submission by top rope practice though.

In reply to Simon Panton:

Dear Simon

Yes, leave things for future generations to enjoy it.

Norrie

PS We can agree, if, you come away with a clear point right away.

In reply to Ands:

There is a lot of talk about the majority being wrong, but they are not wrong they just hold a different opinion. It is the job of the minority to persuade the majority by well reasoned argument of what they believe in order to achieve some form of consensus.

If this is what the article was attempting to do then it strikes me that it has failed almost completely. This could be because the strategy to agressively challenge was a poor choice, that the opinions expressed where poorly argued, or that the opinions expressed are simply not acceptable in the current climate. To be honest I think it is all three...

We should all remember that climbing is largely about the people who do it and the way that it influences and changes us. All of us who have spent a few days in the hills, on mountains, or dangling from some feature or other can consider ourselves well informed and have a valid opinion. Therefore, it is an activity where the majority opinion should prevail until someone persuades us otherwise.

After all, this ain't rocket science but climbing