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I was climbing at the North Wall of Wintour's Leap yesterday afternoon (Sunday 16 October). Being environmentally aware I left a sling and screwagte in place when we abseiled from the tree at the top of Right Hand Route at around 1:30pm.
When I returned at a bit after 5pm to retreive said gear (10mm x 120cm dyneema sling and BD positron screwgate, both new this year) someone had removed the screagte and abseiled directly from my sling.
I was seriously un-impressed. If it was you who removed my karabiner, I would really like it back!
Unfortunately, I also might be rather more inclined to worry about the security of my gear rather than the health of trees in the future....
What does everyone else think? If you found an obviously new sling and karabiner round a tree at the top of a cliff people normally abseil back down what would you do?
When I returned at a bit after 5pm to retreive said gear (10mm x 120cm dyneema sling and BD positron screwgate, both new this year) someone had removed the screagte and abseiled directly from my sling.
I was seriously un-impressed. If it was you who removed my karabiner, I would really like it back!
Unfortunately, I also might be rather more inclined to worry about the security of my gear rather than the health of trees in the future....
What does everyone else think? If you found an obviously new sling and karabiner round a tree at the top of a cliff people normally abseil back down what would you do?
In reply to Mark Stevenson: Oh dear - I have to say, that given the circumstances of Wintours leap, you left crag bounty for all and sundry. I personally wouldn't have left a krab and would have used tat instead of a nice sling.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I'd definitely have left it, especially if there were people still around. I think whoever took the krab should fess up & send it back to you.
I take 'crag swag' if it's obviously stuck gear; or has been dropped or left lying around; and there's no-one nearby to return it to.
> If you found an obviously new sling and karabiner round a tree at the top of a cliff people normally abseil back down what would you do?
I'd definitely have left it, especially if there were people still around. I think whoever took the krab should fess up & send it back to you.
I take 'crag swag' if it's obviously stuck gear; or has been dropped or left lying around; and there's no-one nearby to return it to.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
If it was after dark, when it had obviously been abandoned, I'd take it. If it was at the crack of dawn, or was similarly obviously left from the day before, I'd take it. If it was at a crag where it was clear whether or not others were around (ie not Wintours) then I'd take it. Otherwise, I'd leave it.
> If you found an obviously new sling and karabiner round a tree at the top of a cliff people normally abseil back down what would you do?
If it was after dark, when it had obviously been abandoned, I'd take it. If it was at the crack of dawn, or was similarly obviously left from the day before, I'd take it. If it was at a crag where it was clear whether or not others were around (ie not Wintours) then I'd take it. Otherwise, I'd leave it.
In reply to KeithW:
Doesn't a sling and krab tied around a tree count then? Given the geography of Wintours Leap it would be easy to assume no one was around. I am not saying it should have been taken, but I certainly wouldn't have left that lying around.
I also think the owners of a blue Ford Focus Estate who parked at Curbar yesterday were luck not to have their car broken into given that all their climbing wears were in full view on the back seat.
It is a sad world we live in but the key to success IMO is not to offer easy opportunities.
> or left lying around; and there's no-one nearby to return it to.
Doesn't a sling and krab tied around a tree count then? Given the geography of Wintours Leap it would be easy to assume no one was around. I am not saying it should have been taken, but I certainly wouldn't have left that lying around.
I also think the owners of a blue Ford Focus Estate who parked at Curbar yesterday were luck not to have their car broken into given that all their climbing wears were in full view on the back seat.
It is a sad world we live in but the key to success IMO is not to offer easy opportunities.
In reply to Mark Stevenson: Use a mallion, then it is less likely to be nicked and if it is you won't mind so much.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
As you said to me on another recent thread, you're going to die soon. The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be encouraged wherever possible for reasons I'm sure you are well aware of.
Has climbing really gone so far downhill that we should regard accept that krabs left in situations such as this are crag bounty?
Regards
Tim Jones
> (In reply to Mark Stevenson) Oh dear - I have to say, that given the circumstances of Wintours leap, you left crag bounty for all and sundry. I personally wouldn't have left a krab and would have used tat instead of a nice sling.
As you said to me on another recent thread, you're going to die soon. The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be encouraged wherever possible for reasons I'm sure you are well aware of.
Has climbing really gone so far downhill that we should regard accept that krabs left in situations such as this are crag bounty?
Regards
Tim Jones
In reply to timjones:
Blimey - I must have been having a bad week! If it was meant in a bad way, I do apologise. I have been having a bit of stress (the wrong sort) at work recently.
Regarding krabs left. Well on the one side, I totally agree with you, it is a bit shit that they just vanish. But on the other side of the coin, you never see krabs left on ab points in the Alps. They always use those steel oval things which require a spanner to undo. IMO, crags for which abseiling is a common practice should have fixed ab points / chains to ensure that environmental damage is kept to a minumum. That however, is another debate!
> As you said to me on another recent thread, you're going to die soon.
Blimey - I must have been having a bad week! If it was meant in a bad way, I do apologise. I have been having a bit of stress (the wrong sort) at work recently.
Regarding krabs left. Well on the one side, I totally agree with you, it is a bit shit that they just vanish. But on the other side of the coin, you never see krabs left on ab points in the Alps. They always use those steel oval things which require a spanner to undo. IMO, crags for which abseiling is a common practice should have fixed ab points / chains to ensure that environmental damage is kept to a minumum. That however, is another debate!
In reply to timjones:
Can Tim or someone else clarify the above and why it's bad practise to abseil directly off the sling?
> (In reply to Jon Dittman)
The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be encouraged wherever possible for reasons I'm sure you are well aware of.
Can Tim or someone else clarify the above and why it's bad practise to abseil directly off the sling?
In reply to Dux: I think in a time of crisis, there is nothing wrong with it, but as you pull the rope though, you invariably create a lot of heat through friction which weakens the tat.
In reply to Dux:
When you abseil directly off a sling and then recover the rope you create a great deal of friction and heat which will eventually melt the sling.
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
> The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be encouraged wherever possible for reasons I'm sure you are well aware of.
>
> Can Tim or someone else clarify the above and why it's bad practise to abseil directly off the sling?
> [...]
> The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be encouraged wherever possible for reasons I'm sure you are well aware of.
>
> Can Tim or someone else clarify the above and why it's bad practise to abseil directly off the sling?
When you abseil directly off a sling and then recover the rope you create a great deal of friction and heat which will eventually melt the sling.
In reply to Dux:
If you abseil directly off the sling, when you pull the rope through there is a risk of rope burn and melting due to the friction. That makes it dodgy for anyone using it a second time.
Perhaps that placement Mark used should have a chain and maillon fitted for everyones use.
If you abseil directly off the sling, when you pull the rope through there is a risk of rope burn and melting due to the friction. That makes it dodgy for anyone using it a second time.
Perhaps that placement Mark used should have a chain and maillon fitted for everyones use.
In reply to Dux:
Because if youre rope runs about a tall on the same point on the sling it can wear through it very quickly from friction-generated heat. Abseiling straight off a sling or (even worse) any tat that you find somewhere (anythign could have happened to it) is dangerous.
Mr Dittman: I dont agree at all that a sling at the top of an ab is "crag swag", I most certainly wouldnt take it if I saw it. I also wouldnt leave it there unless I had to, but that would be to avoid some dishonest cock taking it rather than because I would see it as being left there for any honest person to take. Unless gear is blatantly abandoned (and why would anyone abandon gear at the top of wintours? answer: they wouldnt) then you shouldnt take it.
Because if youre rope runs about a tall on the same point on the sling it can wear through it very quickly from friction-generated heat. Abseiling straight off a sling or (even worse) any tat that you find somewhere (anythign could have happened to it) is dangerous.
Mr Dittman: I dont agree at all that a sling at the top of an ab is "crag swag", I most certainly wouldnt take it if I saw it. I also wouldnt leave it there unless I had to, but that would be to avoid some dishonest cock taking it rather than because I would see it as being left there for any honest person to take. Unless gear is blatantly abandoned (and why would anyone abandon gear at the top of wintours? answer: they wouldnt) then you shouldnt take it.
In reply to Dux:
You pull the rope through the sling after you abseil, it creates friction on the sling at the point of contact and damages the sling. So not a problem for you as the first person to abseil off the sling, but a problem for someone else further down the line abseiling off a weakened sling. Using a maillon or krab prevents the friction on the sling and it will last a lot longer. Hence why I carry some tat and a knife to replace and remove suspect material when I'm likely to do this.
Am also thinking of having a note made up and laminated to attach to abseil points that I set up along the lines of " This anchor has been set up for today only and will be used throughout the day. Feel free to use but please do not remove". It's a sad world when you have to do this but hey...
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
>
> Can Tim or someone else clarify the above and why it's bad practise to abseil directly off the sling?
> [...]
>
> Can Tim or someone else clarify the above and why it's bad practise to abseil directly off the sling?
You pull the rope through the sling after you abseil, it creates friction on the sling at the point of contact and damages the sling. So not a problem for you as the first person to abseil off the sling, but a problem for someone else further down the line abseiling off a weakened sling. Using a maillon or krab prevents the friction on the sling and it will last a lot longer. Hence why I carry some tat and a knife to replace and remove suspect material when I'm likely to do this.
Am also thinking of having a note made up and laminated to attach to abseil points that I set up along the lines of " This anchor has been set up for today only and will be used throughout the day. Feel free to use but please do not remove". It's a sad world when you have to do this but hey...
In reply to Si dH:
Damn I should type faster.
Si dH, seems to be some contradiction here, can you clarify? But I certainly agree that gear left at the top of a crag isn't swag (until say after the pubs close...) and Jon is a little out of line for suggesting it is.
> I most certainly wouldnt take it if I saw it. I also wouldnt leave it there unless I had to,
Damn I should type faster.
Si dH, seems to be some contradiction here, can you clarify? But I certainly agree that gear left at the top of a crag isn't swag (until say after the pubs close...) and Jon is a little out of line for suggesting it is.
In reply to Neil Conway:
That's why you use tat. £1-30 per metre. Not exactly expensive, is it?
And if you abseil off tat that someone else has left behind, that's Darwinism at work.
> When you abseil directly off a sling and then recover the rope you create a great deal of friction and heat which will eventually melt the sling.
That's why you use tat. £1-30 per metre. Not exactly expensive, is it?
And if you abseil off tat that someone else has left behind, that's Darwinism at work.
In reply to chris j:
I mean to say that I wouldnt leave it there myself unless I had to because there are too many dishonest peopel around, but I certaily wouldnt take it myself if someone else (eg Mark) had left it, and dont think its right that anyone else would.
I mean to say that I wouldnt leave it there myself unless I had to because there are too many dishonest peopel around, but I certaily wouldnt take it myself if someone else (eg Mark) had left it, and dont think its right that anyone else would.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
That's probably because many of the ab points in the Alps are set up for long term use by the local guides, whereas an ab point with a krab in the UK will probably only be setup for the day using part of a climber's normal rack and how many climbers carry maillons with them? Most permanently fixed lower offs/ab points round where I live do have maillons.
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> [...]
>
> Regarding krabs left. Well on the one side, I totally agree with you, it is a bit shit that they just vanish. But on the other side of the coin, you never see krabs left on ab points in the Alps. They always use those steel oval things which require a spanner to undo.
>
> [...]
>
> Regarding krabs left. Well on the one side, I totally agree with you, it is a bit shit that they just vanish. But on the other side of the coin, you never see krabs left on ab points in the Alps. They always use those steel oval things which require a spanner to undo.
That's probably because many of the ab points in the Alps are set up for long term use by the local guides, whereas an ab point with a krab in the UK will probably only be setup for the day using part of a climber's normal rack and how many climbers carry maillons with them? Most permanently fixed lower offs/ab points round where I live do have maillons.
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Et in Arcadia ego.
Or in other words, even some climbers are thieves. Jon Dittman for a start, by the sound of it.
No reason for the rest of us not to carry on behaving decently, though.
Having said that, I'm a little puzzled why you would abseil at all. Isn't there a perfectly good descent path?
jcm
Et in Arcadia ego.
Or in other words, even some climbers are thieves. Jon Dittman for a start, by the sound of it.
No reason for the rest of us not to carry on behaving decently, though.
Having said that, I'm a little puzzled why you would abseil at all. Isn't there a perfectly good descent path?
jcm
In reply to Anonymous:
I walked round when I was there myself but I do remember it being either a very long way round (where we went), or, if you take the shorter descent, pretty scary-looking, particularly if in trainers or approach shoes and carrying a pack down to the bottom (couldnt be leaving all my gear at the top as my rucksack might become crag swag) and therefore I can see why someone would abseil.
I walked round when I was there myself but I do remember it being either a very long way round (where we went), or, if you take the shorter descent, pretty scary-looking, particularly if in trainers or approach shoes and carrying a pack down to the bottom (couldnt be leaving all my gear at the top as my rucksack might become crag swag) and therefore I can see why someone would abseil.
In reply to chris j:
Fair play and I apologise if I suggested such a thing. It is just that having lived in city centres for the last 10 years, I have had to take the attitude that if you leave something lying around, it will walk. This attitude extends to the crags. I wouldn't have left that sling / krab. I would have used the descent path.
I was suprised that the folks doing Sirplum before us yesterday left a mobile phone and friend 4 in full view next to their shoes. I hope they didn't mind me hidding the phone under their guidebook to make it a little less obvious.
It only takes one bad apple, and the piles of unattended gear scattered at the bottom of places like Stanage will surely provide a suitible lure?
> and Jon is a little out of line for suggesting it is.
Fair play and I apologise if I suggested such a thing. It is just that having lived in city centres for the last 10 years, I have had to take the attitude that if you leave something lying around, it will walk. This attitude extends to the crags. I wouldn't have left that sling / krab. I would have used the descent path.
I was suprised that the folks doing Sirplum before us yesterday left a mobile phone and friend 4 in full view next to their shoes. I hope they didn't mind me hidding the phone under their guidebook to make it a little less obvious.
It only takes one bad apple, and the piles of unattended gear scattered at the bottom of places like Stanage will surely provide a suitible lure?
In reply to Dux:
Whoops that should obviously read "The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be discouraged ". The theory is that any sawing action of the rope can lead to a failure of the sling/tat so krab should be used. If you aren't exactly over loaded with krabs you can't afford to leave them where they can't be retrieved and will have to use a bit of tape or cord on its own, but I would always use a krab where I could return and collect it later. Being tight I would of course use the oldest one on my rack
Apologies for the error and any confusion it caused.
Regards
Tim Jones
> (In reply to timjones)
> [...]
> The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be encouraged wherever possible for reasons I'm sure you are well aware of.
>
> Can Tim or someone else clarify the above and why it's bad practise to abseil directly off the sling?
> [...]
> The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be encouraged wherever possible for reasons I'm sure you are well aware of.
>
> Can Tim or someone else clarify the above and why it's bad practise to abseil directly off the sling?
Whoops that should obviously read "The failure to use a krab on tat or abseil slings should be discouraged ". The theory is that any sawing action of the rope can lead to a failure of the sling/tat so krab should be used. If you aren't exactly over loaded with krabs you can't afford to leave them where they can't be retrieved and will have to use a bit of tape or cord on its own, but I would always use a krab where I could return and collect it later. Being tight I would of course use the oldest one on my rack
Apologies for the error and any confusion it caused.
Regards
Tim Jones
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
I've never heard of leaving kit round a tree just for the day before.
In isolation it would look to anyone like someone's retreated from it, a brand new shiny BD Gogarth E5 6a Positron 22kN 14mm Screwgate, wow that's some good swag.
When abbing retreating I leave bail biners max if I can help it, or ideally a steel screw gate if I'm semi-permanently equipping a popular lower off (I've left `alright' stuff I found elsewhere in situ to ab from before (might as well leave it somewhere useful and it always gets nicked, so it's not really surprising someone's had your swanky krab). If it looked like noone was there I'd have taken it. I'd probably have taken it anyway after having a good look around for others, and I'd have taken the sling too. Did you not see other people there?
I've never heard of leaving kit round a tree just for the day before.
In isolation it would look to anyone like someone's retreated from it, a brand new shiny BD Gogarth E5 6a Positron 22kN 14mm Screwgate, wow that's some good swag.
When abbing retreating I leave bail biners max if I can help it, or ideally a steel screw gate if I'm semi-permanently equipping a popular lower off (I've left `alright' stuff I found elsewhere in situ to ab from before (might as well leave it somewhere useful and it always gets nicked, so it's not really surprising someone's had your swanky krab). If it looked like noone was there I'd have taken it. I'd probably have taken it anyway after having a good look around for others, and I'd have taken the sling too. Did you not see other people there?
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Don't worry, it was in relation to the discussion on back clipping and the risks you accept if you back clip. It was a bit dramatic maybe, but I am old enough and wise enough to judge for myself and accept the risks where necessary. Obviously you don't take unecessary risks, but sometimes in extreme situation "its a case of any port in a storm".
Indeed in the Alps I certainly don't leave karbs behind unless in really extreme circumstances, it has more to do with the extra work involved in carrying them up there than the cost in that instance IMO.
I know what you mean, but I'm not even going to try to spell it right now
I don't think I'll go there at present, as a nasty horrible farmer I would doubtless get shot down in flames whatever my views
Regards
Tim Jones
> (In reply to timjones)
>
> [...]
>
> Blimey - I must have been having a bad week! If it was meant in a bad way, I do apologise. I have been having a bit of stress (the wrong sort) at work recently.
>
> [...]
>
> Blimey - I must have been having a bad week! If it was meant in a bad way, I do apologise. I have been having a bit of stress (the wrong sort) at work recently.
Don't worry, it was in relation to the discussion on back clipping and the risks you accept if you back clip. It was a bit dramatic maybe, but I am old enough and wise enough to judge for myself and accept the risks where necessary. Obviously you don't take unecessary risks, but sometimes in extreme situation "its a case of any port in a storm".
> Regarding krabs left. Well on the one side, I totally agree with you, it is a bit shit that they just vanish. But on the other side of the coin, you never see krabs left on ab points in the Alps.
Indeed in the Alps I certainly don't leave karbs behind unless in really extreme circumstances, it has more to do with the extra work involved in carrying them up there than the cost in that instance IMO.
> They always use those steel oval things which require a spanner to undo.
I know what you mean, but I'm not even going to try to spell it right now
> IMO, crags for which abseiling is a common practice should have fixed ab points / chains to ensure that environmental damage is kept to a minumum. That however, is another debate!
I don't think I'll go there at present, as a nasty horrible farmer I would doubtless get shot down in flames whatever my views
Regards
Tim Jones
In reply to Paz:
>I've never heard of leaving kit round a tree just for the day before.
Really??
This tree's at the top of the crag, I believe - if so must be obvious to even the dumbest this is just stealing, surely? Maybe I'm wrong, though. Where is this tree anyway?
jcm
>I've never heard of leaving kit round a tree just for the day before.
Really??
This tree's at the top of the crag, I believe - if so must be obvious to even the dumbest this is just stealing, surely? Maybe I'm wrong, though. Where is this tree anyway?
jcm
In reply to Anonymous:
Yeah, I've never even heard of anyone doing this happening on the Cromlech (where it might be sensible). Normally stuff gets left in situ in which case it's left alone if it's steel or a Maillon or glued or liberated if it's useable and someone's retreated from it.
The crag's pretty complicated. On the bit of it I've climbed on further left there're some bolt LOs, but it's not unheard of to top out some routes either.
Yeah, I've never even heard of anyone doing this happening on the Cromlech (where it might be sensible). Normally stuff gets left in situ in which case it's left alone if it's steel or a Maillon or glued or liberated if it's useable and someone's retreated from it.
The crag's pretty complicated. On the bit of it I've climbed on further left there're some bolt LOs, but it's not unheard of to top out some routes either.
In reply to timjones:
I've bought a mallion from Rocksport for £1.20. Think we should all stock up on mallions and tat for these kind of situations.
I've bought a mallion from Rocksport for £1.20. Think we should all stock up on mallions and tat for these kind of situations.
In reply to Paz: "It always gets taken so I'd have nicked it too". Great justification for theft there.
In reply to chris j: Ok, lose the quotation marks from my last post as I was paraphrasing but the sentiment in the previous poster's words was pretty plain.
In reply to Si dH:
Having gone back with Phil over the summer, it looks scary, but the other descent is fine in the dry. In the wet I'd be a little more cautious as it is very polished, but its in no way hard.
AJM in the lab
Having gone back with Phil over the summer, it looks scary, but the other descent is fine in the dry. In the wet I'd be a little more cautious as it is very polished, but its in no way hard.
AJM in the lab
In reply to Anonymous:
I can't help feeling that if you can't make it down the descent path the climbing itself's not likely to go very well.
jcm
I can't help feeling that if you can't make it down the descent path the climbing itself's not likely to go very well.
jcm
In reply to Anonymous:
Fair enough, ive only been once, it was wet and it didnt look so easy from the top.
Fair enough, ive only been once, it was wet and it didnt look so easy from the top.
In reply to chris j:
You've misquoted me and ignored all my constraints. If noone's around then it's litter picking.
In reply to jcm:
Anyway, if so -it- must be obvious to even the dumbest that if you leave shiny gear lying around on bumbly crags then due to the fundamental principle of `there's one born every minute' you can't assume everyone is going to leave it alone. Gear's just a consumable. You win some you lose some. These days you can't even leave the clips in on sport projects in europe let alone in england and guarantee they'll still be there anymore. No I wouldn't take a set of clips.
But just so I'm doing something more constructive than taking the piss out of the standard Monday morning whining 'Look what shocking behaviour I encountered over the weekend' thread, I'll point out then two people I know who've lost sets of quickdraws (one out of a project and one just left at the wall) successfully claimed for it on their household contents insurance.
You've misquoted me and ignored all my constraints. If noone's around then it's litter picking.
In reply to jcm:
Anyway, if so -it- must be obvious to even the dumbest that if you leave shiny gear lying around on bumbly crags then due to the fundamental principle of `there's one born every minute' you can't assume everyone is going to leave it alone. Gear's just a consumable. You win some you lose some. These days you can't even leave the clips in on sport projects in europe let alone in england and guarantee they'll still be there anymore. No I wouldn't take a set of clips.
But just so I'm doing something more constructive than taking the piss out of the standard Monday morning whining 'Look what shocking behaviour I encountered over the weekend' thread, I'll point out then two people I know who've lost sets of quickdraws (one out of a project and one just left at the wall) successfully claimed for it on their household contents insurance.
In reply to jcm:
Do you mean failing on the descent path because you are incompetant, or because if the descent is too wet then the climbing will be no better...............
In Feb we did take the long way around, looping round past the left hand side of the cliff, after having looked at the "easy way down" descent path and decided it didn't look terribly appealing. The climbing was still okay - it snowed part of the way up, I'll grant you, but that didn't spoil the fun overly.
Happy days.......
AJM-in-the-lab
Do you mean failing on the descent path because you are incompetant, or because if the descent is too wet then the climbing will be no better...............
In Feb we did take the long way around, looping round past the left hand side of the cliff, after having looked at the "easy way down" descent path and decided it didn't look terribly appealing. The climbing was still okay - it snowed part of the way up, I'll grant you, but that didn't spoil the fun overly.
Happy days.......
AJM-in-the-lab
In reply to Paz:
Probably true about bumbly crags - ie it is not necessarily so much dishonesty as ignorance. After all if you and Jon Dittman say you'd both have imagined this was abandoned, however incredible I might find that, you've both been climbing a lot more than some folk who'd be climbing at Wintours.
I find these 'shocking behaviour' threads quite enlightening. It's always good to know the new ways anti-social climbers are dreaming up of endangering others, for a start, and secondly I am always amazed by the number of apparently decent citizens who see nothing wrong in the said shocking behaviour, more or less regardless of how bad it might be.
jcm
Probably true about bumbly crags - ie it is not necessarily so much dishonesty as ignorance. After all if you and Jon Dittman say you'd both have imagined this was abandoned, however incredible I might find that, you've both been climbing a lot more than some folk who'd be climbing at Wintours.
I find these 'shocking behaviour' threads quite enlightening. It's always good to know the new ways anti-social climbers are dreaming up of endangering others, for a start, and secondly I am always amazed by the number of apparently decent citizens who see nothing wrong in the said shocking behaviour, more or less regardless of how bad it might be.
jcm
In reply to Anonymous:
>Do you mean failing on the descent path because you are incompetant, or because if the descent is too wet then the climbing will be no better...............
I'd have thought either was a pretty bad sign!
jcm
>Do you mean failing on the descent path because you are incompetant, or because if the descent is too wet then the climbing will be no better...............
I'd have thought either was a pretty bad sign!
jcm
In reply to Anonymous:
I'd be pleased if I thought Wintour's was a 'bumbly crag' as it would mean that said bumblies were happily climbing multi-pitch routes, rather than making multi-pitching out to be some great and terrifying leap into the unknown.
But I remain to be convinced.
I'd be pleased if I thought Wintour's was a 'bumbly crag' as it would mean that said bumblies were happily climbing multi-pitch routes, rather than making multi-pitching out to be some great and terrifying leap into the unknown.
But I remain to be convinced.
In reply to Anonymous: i thought the recommended practise for north wall was to abseil because of private gardens at the top? altho my memory might be wrong..
In reply to Paz:
Not sure what to make of that one, I'll have to ask my friend Mike who I used to climb there with...
Not sure what to make of that one, I'll have to ask my friend Mike who I used to climb there with...
In reply to everyone: Thanks for all the comments. I knew what I was doing in terms of risk when I left the sling/krab there but I (wrongly) assumed that any reasonably intelligent and ethical climber would:
a) Realise it was an abseil anchor and not just dropped/left (which they did!).
b) Realise that since it was obviously good quality gear, in an accessible position from the road and still daylight with people on the crag that it was not (yet) abandoned...
c) Perhaps use it themselves to abseil knowing they weren't damaging the tree and that their ropes would be less likely to jam (which they did - minus my £10 krab!).
However, assumption is the mother of all f*&# ups! The suggestion of one poster of having a couple of laminated labels for that purpose makes a great deal of sense. I have no problems with leaving my own tat/mallions etc. on routes and have done so numerous times. However it makes little sense carrying extra gear for abseil anchors you can easily retrieve at the end of the day. Equally, having spent lots of money on a high quality rack, deliberately taking 'old' gear just in case doesn't make sense.
Anyway, cheers for your views, Mark
a) Realise it was an abseil anchor and not just dropped/left (which they did!).
b) Realise that since it was obviously good quality gear, in an accessible position from the road and still daylight with people on the crag that it was not (yet) abandoned...
c) Perhaps use it themselves to abseil knowing they weren't damaging the tree and that their ropes would be less likely to jam (which they did - minus my £10 krab!).
However, assumption is the mother of all f*&# ups! The suggestion of one poster of having a couple of laminated labels for that purpose makes a great deal of sense. I have no problems with leaving my own tat/mallions etc. on routes and have done so numerous times. However it makes little sense carrying extra gear for abseil anchors you can easily retrieve at the end of the day. Equally, having spent lots of money on a high quality rack, deliberately taking 'old' gear just in case doesn't make sense.
Anyway, cheers for your views, Mark
In reply to Mark Stevenson:
Are you saying you don't flash that moac you found / stole / was given at every available moment like all the people I know who own one?
> Equally, having spent lots of money on a high quality rack, deliberately taking 'old' gear just in case doesn't make sense.
Are you saying you don't flash that moac you found / stole / was given at every available moment like all the people I know who own one?
In reply to cornishben:
For all routes which finish at the top of the North Wall,the owner of the house is happy for climbers to follow the obvious "climbers exit" sign through his garden.
Many climbers choose to descend from the Great Ledge (3/4's of the way up the North Wall)using the abseil station on the far right hand side.This is found at the top of "Joe's Route".
Dave
For all routes which finish at the top of the North Wall,the owner of the house is happy for climbers to follow the obvious "climbers exit" sign through his garden.
Many climbers choose to descend from the Great Ledge (3/4's of the way up the North Wall)using the abseil station on the far right hand side.This is found at the top of "Joe's Route".
Dave
In reply to Paz:
Would that include Great Overhanging Wall then?
> Alright then, how about if we call it a boy/girlfriend crag?
Would that include Great Overhanging Wall then?
In reply to Stefan Lloyd:
I'm waiting for my girlfriend to get good enough so that she can drag me up there, there's certainly no way I'll manage to lead anything myself!
> Would that include Great Overhanging Wall then?
I'm waiting for my girlfriend to get good enough so that she can drag me up there, there's certainly no way I'll manage to lead anything myself!
In reply to Stefan Lloyd:
No, or at least not if you didn't want a very pumped and possibly upset partner! I'm going to back track and say I was only on about North Wall.
No, or at least not if you didn't want a very pumped and possibly upset partner! I'm going to back track and say I was only on about North Wall.
In reply to Jon Dittman:
Like the ones on the N Wall at Wintour's Leap then?
Why leave tat/krab when there's anchors care of the BMC?
> IMO, crags for which abseiling is a common practice should have fixed ab points / chains to ensure that environmental damage is kept to a minumum.
Like the ones on the N Wall at Wintour's Leap then?
Why leave tat/krab when there's anchors care of the BMC?
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