UKC

I remember with some fondness my first pair of Vibram soled boots about 30 years ago,and discussions with mates at the time about how crap they were in the wet.

I've just slipped, going to the dustbin in damp conditions, in a pair of new Vibram soled shoes (after wearing the previous pair to rock boot smoothness).

Is this material the world's biggest outdoor gear con, or are there other contenders?

In reply to Kipper:

So you may remember Ken Tarbuck (wasn't he a comedian?) and his famous 'Tarbuck knot', complete with yards & yards of twine wrapped around your middle.

Did it once. Then thought, "B_llocks!"

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

I remember Jimmy; and have climbed with a rope knotted around my middle.

In reply to Kipper: I find my Merrell's in the wet with their vibram sole are pretty slippy aswell

In reply to Kipper: While Youth Hostelling in Pen y Pass at the age of 14, I hired what i thought looked like good mountainwalking boots from the store. Much later I realised I had done the Snowdon Horseshoe wearing EBs. The only people who fell over more than me were the squaddies, so god knows what they were wearing.

It was also p*ssing down, btw, and we all had those ridiculous cagouls that seemed to be made of very thin sponge. They were something of a con too, but very cheap, as I recall.

In reply to Kipper:

I don't think they were designed for walking to the dustbin.

They were designed for walking over, rough, muddy, mountainous Scottish hillsides at which they are very good.

In reply to Steve Parker:

I had one of those as well (handed down)!

In reply to Father Faff:

Bollocks.

In reply to Father Faff: Probably Italian hillsides, actually, but, yes, they do the job when 'mechanical purchase' is required, rather then friction, which they don't do very well at all.

In reply to Kipper:

They were as good as anything in their day, though almost certainly very inferior to nailed boots on slippery or slimy rock (not that I've ever had any nailed boots.)

In 1967-8, when I started climbing, just about everyone was using hemp waistlines and Tarbuck knots. That was the norm, and they actually worked very well, and were the best thing until the first waist harnesses came out.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

This is the (obscure) point I'm trying to make - their day was years ago, is there not a better material now?

In reply to Kipper:

If they were 'brand spanking new' the sole probably still had the release agent on the rubber, which helps remove them from the mould. when this wears off the soles should then grip.

In reply to Kipper:

Yes, sorry, you've a very good point. Here we are in 2006 (nearly) with a sole that even in 1963 wasn't particularly useful.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

PS. They were always very good on granite or gabbro.

In reply to Paul F:

They are, and I agree with what you say - I just don't think they get much 'grippier' (or not at all in the damp).

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Isnt anything?

In reply to peterjb:

Yes, but they always worked particularly well. Something to do with the edging. In the alps, after a few weeks, you'd almost forget you were not wearing PAs.

In reply to Kipper:
Blue Javelin fleeces, de rigour in the late seventies, fine in the pub but useless in the hills, as weatherproof as a fishing net! And they bobbled to buggery - sleeves wore out in no time!

Chris

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: According to Invisible On Everest one of the reasons the vibram sole was developed was because it was warmer than a nailed leather sole. Apparently the nails conducted heat away from the feet. The recommendation for the 1920s British Everest expeditions was to nail the leather soles and turn the points of the nails down before the soles were attached to the boot, with a insultating felt sole between the leather sole and the rest of the boot.

I actually find my vibram-soled boots very good for walking over muddy, mountainous Scottish hillsides. I suppose nails might be better when it's very slippery underfoot, although I've never used them - where can you get them these days anyway?

In reply to Kipper:

Well they worked fine for me on Scottish hillsides when I were a lad which was...errrr...in the sixties. Since then I've had Scarpas for general hillwalking and they were good and in fact my current Goretex KSB's are fine for walking too across typical Scottish hill terrain.

Now rocks are a different kettle of fish altogether and it may well be you are better wearing something else for damp rock, like 5.10 tennies.

Trouble is it's all a bit of a compromise. You either get something hard wearing which probably won't stick to wet rock that well or something really soft which will but won't last very long.

In reply to Father Faff:

The KSBs have Vibram soles by the way.

Whilst I agree it is rubbish in the wet, It does last ages.

a pair of merrils with vibram lasted me a whole year, normally you can see my feet through the bottom after about 3 months!

In reply to Kipper:

There's umpteen different vibram soles, of various longevity and also friction. The vibrams on Mrs Ridge's Raichle boots are wearing badly, whist the ones on my Meindls seem much more hard wearing. As for grip I think my boots are excellent when compared with other vibram soles I've used..

In reply to Kipper: Vibrams certainly better than bleeding contragrip (Salomon sole units) which doesn't stick to rock OR mud.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Javelin fleeces - I remeber those.

I saw a bloke last week wearing a classic Serak shirt, replete with the canvas shoulder patches. Serak were the dogs bits when I was a nipper.

In reply to Craig Geddes:

Contragrip grips better than whatever Boreal put on their shoes.

In reply to Craig Geddes:

Really? My pro sticky seem to stick very well.

In reply to Richard:

Greaseproof paper grips better than Boreal...

Andy F

In reply to StefanB: Perhaps it was a slightly different rubber? Not sure. I have three different salomon shoes though and find non of them stick to anything IME. Perhaps it's just me?!

In reply to Craig Geddes:
The ones on the running shoes are shite, but the mountain soles i find are much better

In reply to andy farnell:


I know that now.

In reply to John Rushby:

Didn't Trevor Briggs(was that his name), that frequented the woof and bang at the end of Watty Hall have somthing to do with Serac?

(Evidently he's not a well man these days)

In reply to andy farnell:

yeah i heard gaskins said that when he could do his new project!)

I suppose nails might be better when it's very slippery underfoot, although I've never used them - where can you get them these days anyway?

I recently bought a pair of tricouni-nailed boots. Wore them on the Fiacaill Ridge and was pleasantly surprised with how comfy they were. Unfortunately I battered them a bit and they're no longer the immacualte museum pieces they were when I bought them. Great grip on muddy hillsides but granite slabs are something else - they lose their grip suddenly and that's it, at least in rubber soles you can feel them go and after they've started to move they might get a grip further down. Sloping foot holds feel very dodgy to one who's used to rubber soles, but easier than crampons so maybe better than crampons for snowed-up rock. I now want to try them on snow - see what a grade 1 gullies used to be like...

Got them from:

McKays
Telephone: 01224 643136
Address: 29-31 Queen St, Aberdeen, AB10 1AP

In reply to Craig Geddes:
Glad I'm not the only one! I've spent more time on my a*rse as a result of these (Contra grip) than I can remember.

Actually a particularly fun experiment is to try using 5-10 tennies (or whatever they are) for the summer and then when it gets too muddy to switch to something with a Salomon sole! Oh are your mates going to have so much fun as you slip and slide on things that last week had so much grip on them.....

Andy

In reply to A Nidderdale boulderer.:

Yeah, he was a co-director and a bloody good alpine climber - I think he was the first Brit to repeat the Supercouloir ( might be wrong). oh, and a nice chap.

I had not heard he was ill, although my old man said he had not seen him around much.

In reply to sandy:

In the interests of balance I must point out that the contragrip soles on my Salomon boots were by far the best part of the boot.
Since the rest of the boot fell apart and developed holes after a few months that isn't really saying much

In reply to Ridge:
I always find the mountain boot contragrip soles on the Saloman boots grippier on rock than vibram so I tend to wear Salomans for scrambling. The soles do wear out quicker, although I agree the rest of the boot falls to pieces much more rapidly so this is not a problem! To be fair to Saloman they replaced 1 set of my boots after major holes developed in the inner lining within 20 days of walking.

In reply to speedydan (ie.slow,shit... etc): Vibram is hardwearing with limited friction on wet rock,
salomon contagrip is great when its dry Ive just spent a year wearing a pair for rope access work on rooves in NZ but when its wet they're rubbish,
stealth rubber from 510 is awesome in the wet, I wear an old knackered pair when working as a whitewater raft guide and they stick to every thing like shit to a blanket, but they do wear out really fast