UKC

After a few pretty decent issues I'd say Climb has taken a bit of a nose dive this month. The front cover picture was less than inspiring (would probably garner an average vote of 3 if it was on this site) and was the opener for another article on Peak grit. Fair enough, I like articles to include the familiar as well as the exotic. However the inside back cover was another full page picture of Peak grit advertising yet another Peak grit article for next month (the training article also featured two out of three photos of Peak grit).

I do wonder whether the editor actually edits anything, layout is confused, he'd failed to spot a mistake in Ruperts, otherwise excellent, Peak report and in the guidebooks section of the Rjukan Ice article there was no mention of the new Rockfax guide (it may have been mentioned in the main article, I haven't read it).

Inidentally one of the training pictures I mentioned above was of Liv Savos (sp?) bouldering at the Plantation. Personally I'd love to know what she got up to when she was here but there was no mention, even the caption didn't say what problem she was on. This could have been an old photo from the Petzl roc trip last year but it seemed an opportunity missed; world class boulder at Stanage, why not a brief interview?

In reply to Tyler:

The only climbing porn I read now is Alpinist, the rest seem to be a love in for the usual crowd.

In reply to Tyler:

Agree. It's fairly pants and so peakcentric it's laughable.

Have given up wasting money on climbing mags. The news is always old by the time it gets to print and the articles rarely interest me anymore.

In reply to Tyler:
Remind me - who or what was on the cover?

Though I guess that shows how forgettable it was

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Someon climbing an E3 in Churnet. Yellow T-shirt,washed out colours, climber looking at the camera rather than climbing (IIRC) very uninvolving.

In reply to John Rushby:


Quality continental hardcore to Climb's Razzle

In reply to Tyler:
Ah, you mean *last* month's!

In reply to Wingnut:

Oops! Looks like WHSmith in Newbury haven't sold many of last months. Is this months any better?

In reply to Chris the Tall:

That's my local crag you're dissing. Mind you, I was fairly staggered to see Belmont Hall on the cover. It's a good article, to be fair, and attempts to publicise an underused area, but it suffers because of the grit overdose in the magazine generally.

In reply to Wingnut:
New ones not in shops yet is it? Certainly wasnt on Saturday.

I agree about the issue under discussion, it wasnt great and I think Climb has gone gradually downhill a bit, Im not sure why - maybe theyre tryign to cater more for the season and will have more interesting destinations when theyre climbable in the summer? But then, more scottish winter articles would be good in that case. The photo of Elegy at the back is better than the front cover, although primarly because I really want to do the route at some point.

In reply to Tyler:

Given the price, I think it more of a high class escort, to Climbs crack whore.

In reply to Si dH:
sas in back, next issue on sale 9th Feb, ie thursday.

In reply to Tyler:

Probably could do with a bit of celebrity glitter - Lady Isabelle Hervey perhaps ?

In reply to Simon Lee:

It'd make a change.

In reply to Tyler: Was no-one else slightly sickened by the advertorial for a motorbike? Especially given the holier-than-thou editorial about climate change?

In reply to Stig:

compared to the SUV adverts in the US mags it is small beer.

In reply to Tyler:

Retro ads - like the classic Isabelle Pattisier bouldering in a bikini - that is what we need, and some old Peter Storm goretex circa 1984 showing some dry but sadly immobile bloke with a beard, in the rain, on Kinder Scout.

In reply to Stig:

I think it would be a bit naive to expect all contributors to walk to the places they write about!

So if we get consensus that the mags are going downhill, which not start a monthly UKC online mag, we have loads of people to write articles, all we need is someone to step up to the 'editor' role

any takers..........

In reply to Si dH:
New one was on my doormat when I went home for lunch. Only had a brief flick through (didn't have time to read properly), but appeared to contain tedious self-congratulatory "it's our birthday" editorial, Lucinda Hughes interview, stuff on ski touring, and Andy Kirkpatrick explaining how spending loads of money on getting lighter versions of kit you already have will trim an astounding 1.3Kg off your rack. The cartoon features Mick Fowler in a dress ( : and the back page bit is (iirc) Paul Ramsden with the inevitable cute small child . . . why do climbing celebs never have ugly kids?

In reply to Wingnut:

All photos in climbing mags are doctored. Have you not read the Rich Simpson thread?

In reply to Si dH:


Mine turned up in the post this morning along with Climber (so at least my other half and I won't be fighting over who gets to read something first!)

Last month's was indeed poor, although I put that down to a one off, being as it was produced over the christmas period when, let's face it, nobody tends to produce their best work.

I'm waiting to see if this month's brings about a change for the better.

In reply to Tyler:

But it does contain lots SteveMcClurage (articles, photo's, bon mots, advice etc) which is what Climbs all about. Its just as well he's a good egg otherwise the mag would sink without trace.

Loved the Teck Crack direct beta:

1 Pull up to the traverse
2,3,4,5,6,7,8 hand traverse right
9 err pull up

I'd never have worked that one out....

In reply to Yorkspud:

Oh yeah, I forgot to mentinon the this months classic boulder problem was pn Peak grit as well!

In reply to 'Hilda': did the free dvd come with the climber or is it a send away jobby?

In reply to Tyler:

Otherwise known as McClure Country

In reply to Marts:

Free dvd in packaging with Climb mag.

J

In reply to Tyler:

re Liv Sansov at the plantation - the photo will have been from the roctrip, though I'm impressed someone caught her with her boots on. Mostly she found it too cold, though the fact it rained all week can't have helped. Whoever scheduled the trip for what is well documented as the wettest week of the year???

In reply to Marts:

Yup - was going to watch it last night - but kids nabbed the TV then I fell asleep!!

Bought it to work with me so I can watch it whilst working

In reply to 'Hilda':

I am burning with curiosity.

What is on this DVD of which you speak??

In reply to palomides:

Watched a bit last night. AFAICT it's the videos that are downloadable from the Petzl site so you may well have seen them before.

That said though, it's very nice to have them in a nice, convenient, high resolution format like DVD.

The first of the climbing roctrip ones is the best of the disk so far for me (the one that isn't in Sqamish).

I'm still chuckling about that French bloke saying "it's just like flying" before taking a huge lob!

In reply to Tyler: I like the "UK's best routes on route cards" that don't cover anywhere in Scotland...

It's true they do try to cater for the season, but i would wager that they received very few contributions for scottish winter climbing.

The Churnet article was mine, it is a massively underused area and it's not in the Peak District or made of grit. If people want to hear about esoteric and under exposed crags which is what they always say on forums like rock talk then there it is. It was a challenge to write about an overgrown and generally chossy area but I've plucked out the good stuff and stuck it in the article, go and have a look. The photos were a challenge in themselves, jungle bashing to the top and dim lighting not helping the cause.

I imagine there will be a few dummies spat out next month, because that article is actually about Peak Gritstone Classics, which are something I'd rather read about than obscure south american peaks which will never be visited again. You can't please all the people all of the time but you can try and cater for the majority. I hope you can read past the Peakcentricism and enjoy them for what they are.

Cheers

Andi

In reply to andi turner:

With the greatest of respect, many of the British climbing public have read all about about Peak Gritstone Classics several times before - though of course the article would be interesting to newer climbers. And personally I like hearing about epic tales of adventure and derring-do on obscure South American Peaks, it makes a nice change from hearing about how bloody Right bloody Unconquerable was first downclimbed in the 1930s or whatever.

For those who have good enough Spanish I recommend picking up a copy of Desnivel or Escalar the next time you are in Spain, to see what a really good climbing magazine is like.

In reply to Tyler: Have basically stopped buying British mags as they are about as dull as watching paint dry. I don't care about bouldering, and I care about bouldering in the peaks even less. Is there nobody out there risking life and limb to bring us classic epics? Or is it that they are all out there doing it and have no time to tell us about it... probably the latter...

In reply to mike kann:
How about you writing something, or for that matter anyone else!

It's been said on here more than once that rather than grumble about the lack of articles that 'you' (in general) want to read, get out and write them.

If someone has something interesting to write about but needs photographs then drop me a line and let's sort something out. For info in the near future I'm covering Scotland (2 or 3 different things) and the Duddon Valley in the Lakes on top of a few other things when the weather picks up.

David

In reply to David Simmonite: The problem with this is that I neither do much thats interesting, nor have a talent for writing! If I do, I'll send it in...

In reply to David Simmonite:


Hi David,

That's an interesting suggestion - as lots of people probably have ideas for interesting articles but don't necessarily have the photos or the skill to take them. Can you make enough money from one article in one of the British mags to justify a day or two spent at a crag getting shots to go with an article? I have no idea how professionals like you and Ray Wood go about taking the shots for articles. I sort of presumed that you would be asked by the magazines (i.e. commissioned) - so that you knew it would be worth your time to go out and do the work? You would have to be taking quite a chance if, for example, I said lets meet as so-and-so crag, I'll do the words you take the pictures and then we'll see if the magazines will accept the article.

As someone who has been published once in High (a long time ago!) I'd be interested to learn more about how this works.

Cheers
Toby.

In reply to TobyA:
Hi Toby
I do run article ideas to the mags first to see if it is of interest (or they will let me know if anything interesting crops up) before going out to do the pics.
That way I'm not wasting mine or anyone elses time.

Do you have some ideas?

David

In reply to David Simmonite: Ian Parnell actually has something of mine (+ pics) at the mo'. I haven't heard back yet but he's out busy doing new VIII on the Ben and pushing the boundaries of British alpinism so I don't mind waiting!

Also I'm in Finland, so I think that would make it more tricky! Ray Wood did come out here a summer or two ago with Ben Moon, but that was a friend of friend being entrepreneurial that got them out.

In reply to David Simmonite:

David, with the greatest of respect (the second time I've given it in this thread!) this sentence is nonsense.

Climb magazine is a business, not a fanzine. I don't have the time or inclination to go out writing articles and taking photos to be printed in a climbing magazine (plus they probably wouldn't be good enough!). However I do have the ready cash to spend buying a climbing magazine, so that the people who do have such an inclination can get paid.

The point is that the magazine is a business. As such, saying 'if you don't like it, YOU go and do it' is not at all useful. If the magasine wants to make money - it is it's responsibility to entertain us, not necessarily to ask us to help it out!

In reply to Alun:


It is probably somewhere between the two in actual fact. The profit motive is often not the only reason for starting a business.

In reply to TobyA:

Maybe its time for one of the mags to go on-line with easily accessible 'contribution' sections?

In reply to Tyler:

Yachting Monthly has a good section - effectively a sailing epics article every month sent in by readers.

they are quite searching with a lessons learned bit at the end. We could have a Readers Epics section once a month.

In reply to David Simmonite:


It works both ways. The mags should actively solicit articles from people, a tad wider of a pool than they do at the moment, goodness knows there is enough people who can write and photograph out there.

In reply to David Simmonite: "rather than grumble about the lack of articles that 'you' (in general) want to read, get out and write them"

Given the extremely small pool of contributors to Climb since its inception, is this a realistic possibility?

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:
It's a shame they lost the OTE "back passage" bit - that was an ideal slot for random bods with a good idea and sufficient ability to string a sentence together.

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:


I agree, the days that you had a half decent chance of being published seems to have passed by as the scene seems to have closed in on itself so much. shame...as the content at the moment seems to have stagnated & is very "samey"

si

In reply to Tyler:

The fact is that there are only a few contributors to these magazines. What David is saying is that if you have something interesting to write about, whether its your local crag or some epic adventire you've been on, you should take your time out to write something about it.

It might not get published, but it won't if you don't try and then you have no grounds to stand on to critisize what is published. Not all work is published (I've lots which haven't been published and Dave has wasted a lot of film) but I am of the same opinion as the rest of you that it would be great to see some new and inspiring articles.

Good luck,

Andi

In reply to John Rushby: That was the only bit of my parents' copy of Yachting Monthly I could ever be bothered to read!

I once submitted an article to them when I was 14 (going for the 'cute child writes about holiday adventures' angle) and they rejected it. Hmph.

In reply to andi turner: The other thing is that its not like the mags are asking us to write for them for free. If your article gets in they do pay!

In reply to andi turner:


Yes I do. If you go to a restaurant and the standard of service or food is not what you expect, do you just go into the kitchen and knock something up without complaint?

In reply to andi turner:

I'm not a rock musician but know that U2 are crap, I'm not an artist but know that Constable is overrated, I'm not a mechanic but want to buy a car that doesn't break down, I'm not an outdoor journalist but would like to read interesting article in climbing magazines.

The only message I'm trying to get across is to encourage people to be pro-active and give it a go. There must be some of you who can write a good article.

The one thing that often comes back to me is that people can write but don't can't take good pics to go with it which is why I'm encouraging people to get in touch. I for one would love to see new writers in the mags and if by helping people out then I'm more than happy.

David

In reply to David Simmonite:

Thousands, absolutely thousands.


Lots of them can

http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/



Well if that is so, use your contacts and get the editors to come on UKC and make a request.........they'll reach over 20,000 registered UKC climbers and more than triple that who aren't registered. Not only would the mags get more subsmissions but they'd get more readers (buyers) too.

Mick

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

Not sure the average magazine editor (if there is such a thing) would find it very edifying trawling through the picture galleries - there is an awful lot of mediocre (and worse) stuff in there.
Tough but true


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

It strikes me that the editor of climb finds any type of work unedifying. I think it is lazily put together and have seen precious little innovation at the mag for years. That said, some issues are good but not every one.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

You are a regular poster but you don't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Well I thought it was my opinion that there's very little of interest in the climbing mags, are you telling me that it's actually a fact?

In reply to David Simmonite:

You are part of the problem, your work is mediochre at best, untill the likes of you throw in the towel, the young guns out there with an alternative perspective and a little more imagination may get a look in.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

You missed the point I was making Chris.

There is so much talent out there, both writing and photography-wise, it is amazing.

The mags do seem to rely on the same very small pool of people, the worst case is Climb's reliance on Steve McClure.........but they are all as bad as each other.

The result of this is very low circulation figures. If there was more diversity of content and people, more people would buy them.

Mick

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

I think what Climb ditched from OTE & High were the only 2 columns where new writers could get a look in - them being The back Passage & Bloc sport. 2 nice area's for people to do quick articles that didn't need too much effort for people to go through.

It seems gear reviews and training have taken over the mags at the mo - there's not any real inspiring writing any more and I agree with Andy that more people should have a go, but when you do and never hear anything back -
people will get put off & still think its a closed shop.


si

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

My point was that the Photo Galleries on here are not a shining example of talent (and I know that's not what they are supposed to be). I was browsing the other evening looking for shots for Eastern Grit, and would say that 90% of the pics I saw were indifferent or worse! I have said it before - there are some great images in the galleries but they are drowned out by the gash!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:
When looking at the galleries, it is not difficult to browse by vote rating, thus theoreitally "drowning out the gash". There are plenty of magazine worthy photos.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Yes they are Chris. Some far exceed what you see in the mags, some are on par with, some are approaching, and yes some are your standard fun pics that we all take.

Anyway, isn't it about time you wrote a master class photography article for UKC?

Mick

In reply to Tyler:

After all is said, if everyone thinks that Climb is crap, they will stop buying it and it will disappear off the shelves. There are very few writers producing work out there and it could do with a fresh injection of talent. However so long as people sit on behinds writing a few lines a forum instead of putting some hours in (and it takes some time out of your climbing doing the writing, researching and getting the pics) nothing will be done about it. Even for an article like the Churnet it took four trips down photographing and probably 12 hours writing.

I'd love to see some new stuff out there and less complaining about what is already there.

Andi

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Yes, but this site is not really a good example- people post piccies for a host of reason, not necessarily because they have some "artistic" merit.

There are some superb photographers on here, and I know of 2 professionals. Then there are the ones who have their own sites such as Lawman.

I hope I do not cause offence, but there is muchmore climbing photography out there , rather than all of us looking at Alex Messenger's (admittedly excellent) shots of his mates climbing.

In reply to andi turner:

There are lots.


Sorry it's that attitude that leads to a closed shop. The mags and UKC for that matter could be a lot more pro-active. People love to write and take photos and would love to get published. All that is needed is a smidgin of guidance and the opportunity.

In reply to andi turner:

One of the reasons is that climbing magazines take a leaf out of the mainstream media and focus on celebrity climbers and so-called celebrity writers and photographers. They think that is what people want. I'd say cut the celeb content down to 20% and start to encourage more writers and photographers.

There's a whole host of subjects, very interesting subjects that could be tackled, all I seem to see is the same recycled pap.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Which proves that there are fantastic photos and some that are just run of the mill. The point is that there is a lot of talent out there that isn't used.

M

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Mick's list proves that there is no shortage of people able to take photos good enough for publoication.
Your list proves that not all photos are good enough for publication.

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:
I may be wrong and it might be because the Eds are lazy, but I would guess the reason the mags use the same people repeatedly is that they come up with the goods within the time frame the Ed wants - and by that I mean the full package; text, shots, maps, and fact file.
I have no doubt they get plenty of good shots, and printable text landing on the doormat daily - but they live in the real world with immovable deadlines.

Chris

In reply to Tyler:
My experience is that it is all about photographs...have had what I thought were good ideas and even written a couple of things but the editors won't look at them without decent photos. Then the professional people who can take photos or who have photos of you being really precious, or they get paid and you don't, which is OK if the only reason for writing it was so everyone got a break from Peak Grit love-ins. Mark Glasiter helped me out last time. And David, next thing I think of I will be in touch!
I've been saying for years I would like to read more about what the normal people among us get up to, and the other girls out there...but climbing doesn't seem to lend itself to an epic every weekend and so most of it would be quite boring.
So now I seek inspiration...and obscure crags!

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:

How about "don't give up the day job" for starters

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Or.......don't shoot into the sun and get your white balance/point right.

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:
or, if you're going to shoot into the sun, still think about the subject and composition

or, you don't have to upload every photo you take

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Shift the deadlines, have a decent online contributors page with guidance, tips and templates for different types of articles. Same with photos. Also be able to submit online. Have an online photo needs list.....for starters.

M

In reply to Dr Fran:
>>and obscure crags!

Finedon? ::op

I've often thought a top ten of revolting chosspile sh*tholes would be good . . . we all know that Stanage and the Llanberis quarries (for example) are good, what we need is a list of crags to avoid!

In reply to Chris Craggs: All I know is that despite not climbing in the states I find Climbing and Rock and Ice far more interesting than either of our current british magazines. They are balanced and represent all sides of our sport. I think the quality of work available here in the UK is equally good to that available in the states but for some reason what is published is just less interesting.

Where are the articles to inspire us? I find some of the articles on here - a free service - more interesting than anything in Climb. There is a disproportinate amount of writing about single pitch death routes in a small area which the editors mate just happened to do last week compared to mulitpitch death routes in the Himalaya and Alps, bigwalls, etc. that the leading lights of our sport have completed. Is it really because the likes of Mick Fowler and Ian Parnell do not write eloquently and take great photo's?

Maybe its just me but I don't find smearing on a hold smaller than a pinhead which only held because it was just the right temperature and the climber had eaten lettuce and mixed leaves for two months previous particularly interesting. Where as two guys climbing a 9000ft face with no chance of rescue and surviving on a spoonful of potnoodle everyday for a week before their supplies ran out whilst the biggest storm known to man rolled through, now thats exciting, even to boulderers... everybody likes an epic, or to imagine that their next one is just round the corner... Just look at the success of Alpinist, an expensive quarterly! I feel Climb needs to look around at other mags and drag itself up to their standard - e.g. the Yank mags, Alp (italian), Vertical (france) to name but a few...

All they need to do is diversify a bit - is there anything wrong with that?

In reply to Dru:

Thank you Dru (or whatever your real name is). Your opinion but can you do better?

It's funny I come on here to give a bit of low down on mags and I get abuse - why does that not surprise me.

In reply to mike kann:

I don't think I was suggesting that the current mags are great, I was just trying to inject a little realism into the thread.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: Remember that even the run of the mill photos (sometimes) give you info about the crag that is very useful, like don't go to Helsby.

In reply to Chris Craggs: Sorry didn't mean you inspecific, just a general comment. Maybe we need to start an online magazine (paid for obviously) on UKC which has editorial which is up to scratch. Not that I'd know how to do it, but could be kind of good - fill the niche in the market and all...

In reply to mike kann:

I agree with this. I was so bored on a train once that I actually started reading Mountain Notes (which I usually ignore) in Climb and stumbled across this amazing epic that these two American guys had on some mountain in the Himalaya (the shame is I don't remember any of the names) which involved them doing hard free-climbing, hard aid, huge swings, rapidly losing most of their gear and reaching a point where retreat was impossible (they didn't have enough gear) and so the only way to get off alive was to top-out and get down the other side.

It was an absolutely amazing story and I remembered wandering at the time why it wasn't on the front cover, rather than tucked away in the 'new mountain routes' section that a relatively small proportion of the readership reads in detail (though it is quite an important section).

(Though as I haven't bought the mag since - for all I know it might have been written up in the next issue - if so I apologise!)

In reply to Alun:

Mountain Notes are the best bit, I find myself engrossed and realise 30 minutes later that I have finished pooing and my bum has now gone numb.

In reply to John Rushby:
You should set a timer and turn to the letters page, that should get you wiping soon enough.

In reply to David Simmonite:

Dear David

Am I supposed to know who you are? And if you think that is abuse, you must be very thin skinned.

Norrie

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com:
Realistiaally, not an option if you're going to produce a monthly magazine with set press dates.

Worthwhile if there's someone capable of giving good guidance. My biggest gripe with most climbing (and other outdoor mags) is the woeful standard of literacy of rather too many of the writers. Quite what Bernard Newman does all day is not clear, but he certainly doesn't edit.

>Same with photos. Also be able to submit online. Have an online photo needs list.....for starters.
An online photo needs list sounds like a nice idea, but if I were an online editor, I suspect I'd manage a week of trawling through the mediocre submissions and give it up as a bad job.

In reply to mike kann: If you look at the climbing logbooks on this site more than 50% of all the new routes entered are of the single pitch smearing vartiety you describe above. It annoys me when people say magazines in the UK are gritcentric as a bad point- they are, but that's because climbing in the UK is gritcentric: they are catering to the majoirty audience.

Andi's recent Churnet article is a good example of what i think makes a good article in these magazines: if that article gets two teams to travel and try out those crags, rather then going to the Popular End, how can that be a bad thing?

I must also disagree with your point about alpine style epics: i quickly get bored of reading about people sitting in snowholes eating one noodle and sucking on half a boiled sweet - it all gets rather repetitive.

In reply to Dru:


I think that's very harsh. Even if what you say is true (I don't think it is BTW) you can't expect someone to pack in their job just because you suspect someone might be able to do it better.

The problem isn't with individual contributors, they do what they think is best, they write and photographwhat they know. The problem lies with editors who aren't more imaginative about what they put in their mags or more resourceful in sourcing interesting content. Climb in particular is not very proactive in looking for content, you've only got to look at the 'Scene' pages, they don't look beyond the narrow confines for stories about access or things happening n the world at large.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'll inject a little more: between £20,000 and £35,000 ad income a month on an unaudited circulation of 10,000. Not bad is that?

Smoke and mirrors.

In reply to Alun:

Tell me

"I think Climb is dead brill and the best mag in the world ever erver and i always read it before skateboarding to the Broadie"


........Have a Beenie and free subscription.....

In reply to David Simmonite:

I'm sorry but i find your work dull in the extreme and it is not necesarily the subject matter, ie bouldering/ cragging which is your bread and butter, herein lies the problem, the articles and prespective are always the same?

In reply to TimS:

The problem with the Churnet article is obvious - it will tempt a few inquisitive souls down there - but only once - then next month when its The Henhole, Agden, Cheeswring, Parbold, Denham or some similar dump they will be all the wiser and head for Stanage!


Chris

In reply to tony:

Extend them. Plan a little further ahead.



Tell that to Nick Smith and Alan James at UKC who look and check at every photo that is submitted to UKC...over 26,000 of them.

In reply to TimS:

I take it you live in Sheffield then. The Logbooks are not necessarily representative of the routes climb in the country. The fact that you can climb twice as many because they're half the length helps. Of course there are lots of people who climb on the Grit but for christs sake there is so much more to UK climbing than Grit. My point about single pitch smeary bold routes was not that its not admirable and groundbreaking, but that its not particularly exciting to read about. Just like listening to Nigel Mansell talk about how he managed to shave off a few seconds on the third, ninth and tenth laps...

In reply to Chris Craggs: I'm not from the Peak, I'm from Yorkshire, but I understand you have slightly more than that to offer in the way of less popular crags down there, or do you want the better less popular ones to stay quiet?

In reply to mike kann:

See my above comment about noodles and sweets, and you can add all the articles about shaving 5 mg's off the weight of your gear: great for extreme alpinists, but not really going to make much difference on Tower Ridge.

In reply to David Simmonite: David, Maybe you can help me. I'm trying to get hem to take the article I wrote on here about the Haute Route, but the photos I sent in aren't........*to their liking*.. Can you help with ski touring photos?Nick

In reply to nickinscottishmountains:

Come on Nick, pimp yourself.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=176

In reply to Mick - UKClimbing.com: Hi Mick, V kind of you but jhe editor didn't warm to that or any of the phots I sent him. must admit, I'm kind of fond of that one.....Nick

In reply to TimS: I totally agree with you, most equipment notes are dull. However things like the techtips in Climbing are great as they are split so that there is a section for everybody. All I'm suggesting is that perhaps there should be some sort of balance to the mags, something for everybody, which is currently not the situation. I enjoy any tales of derring - even the smearing 20 foot above a skyhook variety as long as its not the same every month! Maybe they need to set up a quota of types of features, so that they don't lose track of the variety of climbing that people like to read about.

In reply to David Simmonite:


Your photographs are great Dave. I can only guess at how much time and effort, arranging, travel, dealing with inclement weather that it takes to get a handful of great shots.

Don't stop.

Mick

In reply to Alun:

I'm guessing you mean the Azeem ridge, it is quite a tale:
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/article_cordes_trango.htm
http://www.grivel.com/News.asp?PageIndex=4&Testo=&giorno=&giorn...
.


It seems to me that successful media are going in two opposite directions leaving an increasingly thinly populated middle ground: either a free to consumer model (ukclimbing) or premium-priced with high-quality content and production values (US mags, Alpinist at the far end of the spectrum). Both Climb and Climber fall clattering between these two stools.

In reply to duncan:


That's exactly it.

In reply to Tyler:

It seems very obvious to me that the problem lies in the fact that not everything is to everyones taste. I don't like mountain notes, it means nothing to me but I like mountaineering stories. Gritstone climbing and the welsh sea cliffs float my boat so I'll buy a mag if its got a whiff of these, I don't expect then to love everything else in it and that goes for Desnivel and Rock and Ice too!

Chris Craggs, the article explains what to expect in the churnet. Some people love it (me) others will never see what's great about, ho hum.

Finally you can guarantee that the East West article will rile loads of people of the 'it's all about the Peak all the time' brigade, but they'll still not get off their arses and write something themselves. I certainly didn't wake up one day and I was a contributor, I had to write things and send them off til they liked them enough to print. I didn't know people like Dave Simmonite or Neil Pearson before I started, but I went about seeking out a way to get work in print, others should do the same if they want to see the mags improve and show more diversity.

The best mag for me would be something Staffordshire Rock Quarterly, it'd be great but only sell about 10 copies so unfortunately we must water down our mags and take a little of everything of what everyone fancies.

In reply to duncan:


The US have a bit more money, but beyond that I fail to see what is so great about them. They have good article and pictures sometimes, but so do the British mags.

In reply to mike kann:

Where as two guys climbing a 9000ft face with no chance of rescue and surviving on a spoonful of potnoodle everyday for a week before their supplies ran out whilst the biggest storm known to man rolled through, now thats exciting, even to boulderers... >

How about a couple of boulderers trying out a sit start to a V9 and then...get this....one of them...DROPS HIS HAT! AND THEN the other one RIPS A FLAPPER.....

Himalayan epics eat your heart out...

In reply to Tyler: I have subscribed to both the main Uk mags or their predecessors since the mid 1970's. (I also had most 'Mountain ' and loads of Vertical from France)However, at the moment I am so rarely inspired that I think it is likely that my collection will stop growing when present subscriptions expire. I will find something else to read on the bog!!

Years ago the mags were a key resource for finding out about new areas, especially abroad, but the web has changed that.

In reply to andi turner:



Oh I don't know. I reckon we could flog it at Staffs and Keele Unis, put it in the Wilke's and the Lazy Trout and only have ads for Mountain Fever, Wright's Pies, Povey's oatcakes and Hartington IPA. It'd be at the forefront of the imminent Dovedale and Beeston resurgence and we could serialise move-by-move instructions for Long wall traverse. What do think?

In reply to David Simmonite:

I think mags should reach out to aspiring writers far more proactively than they do. They should run more writing competitions and have "reader's lives" pages that openly encourage submissions. The "spam challenge" that Adventure Travel does is a good idea, but that sort of idea could be developed a lot further.
The mags should publish all the best submissions not just the winner, plus snippets from some of the others and they should offer editorial support, especially when someone has a good tale to tell but is not confident with spelling and grammar.

As far as writing competitions are concerned, I think it's important that the theme is broad enough to inspire lots of submissions with different interpretations, and people should have the option of submitting fiction or non-fiction. The title should inspire people to write not leave them scratching their heads, which in my experiece they sometimes do. Often people don't have the confidence or motivation to put pen to paper and it's easy to put it off until tomorrow unless there is an inspiring topic, an incentive and some kind of deadline.
Not many people are good photographers, and in any case who thinks about taking photos in the middle of their scariest epic or whatever? Maybe there could be a photo comp to go with the writing comp so that good photographs can be matched with good articles.
I will shut up now because I can rant about this indefinitely.

In reply to andi turner:

I wasn't slagging the Churnet especially - I have had some good days down there, more trying to highlight the problems with a mag for all tastes - it can't be done. Covering more esoteric venues will be of interest to locals but probably not a wider audience.
Having said that - years and years back one of the mags (Rocksport) had an artice on a place I had never heard of Sandy Crag in Northumberland. It looked so good we went up that weekend on the strength of the article and had a great trip!

Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

You know how good the mags are? I have three months of climber sat here unopened waiting to be read/flicked through and commented on. Doesn't that say it all, bored with them.

In reply to sutty: I haven`t bought a climbing magazine in c.3 years. My interest in climbing hasn`t declined- but I just haven`t seen enough "meat " in any magazines to make me want to buy them recently. I have to say, beta for doing boulder problems was prolly the last straw- and I boulder a lot.

p.s. I agree with Rubbishy- the Mountain notes (RIP Mountain) were often the most gripping bit of bog reading.

p.p.s. Dave Simmonite`s photies are cracking IMHO- the ones he took at Almscliffe a couple of weeks ago should be good.

In reply to TobyA:


I'd agree that Rock and Ice has become quite hit-and-miss. i am surprised you don't perceive a difference between Alpinist and a Brit mag though?

In reply to lummox:

Interesting how whenever these 'magazines are crap' threads kick off, people always say that the subject matter is at fault. IMHO that's just not it. The problem is that the majority of the writing is dull. I'm not saying this to get anyone's backs up, but it's just the way I see it. The articles in the UK mags are clearly and competently written, but there does seem to be a lack of the passion about the subject that leads to truly great writing. Standout pieces in the past were things like Craig Smith's stories of road tripping in Vegas, which was gripping, funny and really hi-class, despite it being yet another "what I did on my holidays" article.

Another example is the peak scene in Climb. Climb/OTE was always accused of being too peak oriented, but most people agree that Ru's peak scene is one of the best bits of the mag. The change has come because Ru can write very well, and he really cares about his subject matter. Talented writers make the difference, which is why it's pointless saying "if you've got an idea, send it in". It's not the ideas, it's the writer that makes the article.

The ability to make UK mags a thing of excellence lies with the editors alone I think. They need to focus on finding people who really write well, and once they've found them, the editors need to keep them *enthused*, 'cos it's that passion that makes them write well. I've read stuff from Chris Craggs that blew my socks off, but I skip right past most of your "holiday" articles Chris. I suspect you don't really get excited by them, and it really does show.

Sourcing a pool of really good writers should be the editors primary concern, and the internet forums are a good place to start. If any editors are reading this I would suggest these people:

Ru (UK Bouldering)
Marc C (UK Climbing)
Dave Parry, Cofe, John Fulwood (UK Bouldering)
Paz (UK Climbing)
John Cox (UK Climbing)
John Rushby (UK Climbing)
Norrie (UK Climbing)

These people can write, they have a style which makes people take notice (even if it is merely to cause irritation). Get in touch with them and knock some ideas around. The result will be stuff we all want to read, guaranteed.

In reply to Chris Craggs: Are you saying that putting Denham in Gritwest was an error?

In reply to tobyfk: I didn't mean Alpinist, I meant R&I and Climbing. Some the articles I did read in Alpinist seemed a bit puerile (climbing when stoned) or annoyingly... well... errr... American (Steve House on his unbelievable route on K7 where he said virtually nothing about the route and a lot about his state of mind. I wonder if he just borrowed his analysts notes?). Of course its climbing porn for the wannabe hard mountaineer like myself, but I bet a lot British climbers who just crag climb would find it a bit dull. Obviously its to fill another niche though.

I enjoy all climbing mags just because I'm sadly still in love with climbing as much as I was when I started. But besides being a bit less rough around the edges, R&I and CLimbing I don't think are better or worse than the UK mags. They sometimes have the money (I imagine) to do a few interesting stories that you don't see in the UK mags though. Pete Takeda's investigation into the dissappearance of a climber (non-climbing related) was very good, but probably more social articles like that wouldn't go down so well in the UK magazines.

I could criticise the British mags loads though if you want!

In reply to midgets of the world unite:


I wouldn't agree with that. No disrespect to Ru, but it simply doesn't spring to mind as being particularly different. I read every magazine I buy cover to cover, so I definitely do read it, but there is always a problem reading reports on areas of the country you don't know well that things don't necessarily mean a lot to you, no matter how well written they are. Like I said this isn't a criticism - it just demonstrates that the magazines have to cover lots of different ground to try give something for everyone.

In reply to Tyler:
Can't be bothered reading the whole thread.

Has anybody read the Colin Wells piece on Orion Direct in this month's Climb? I thought it was good.

In reply to David Simmonite:


Just take heart that for every stupid comment on here at least there's 2 to counter it in terms of yr pics Dave (it could easily be the other way round!!)

..surprised no one has mentioned Friction magazine - I've not seen it for a while - but it looked good and maybe something that free-lancers may be able to submit work to?!

Also Summit - which is probably the most likely of places that people may be able to get work published. I can think of 3 people off here, Sloper, Gingerkate and myself that have had articles in there - so there are ways & means...

Si

In reply to Simon:

but writing things for free is not always the point though...

having said that, Summit is by far the best paper mag out there currently...

In reply to Tyler: I did once have an article published but was frustrated when I submitted another offering. I received no confirmation of interest or rejection for over 6 months and when contacted I was told my slides had gone missing. Perhaps this is typical of the publishing industry or perhaps it is just reflective of a mag trying to exist on smallish circulation and cutting costs in the office.

In reply to Ian Hill:
>>but writing things for free is not always the point though...

Depends on how you see the magazine. Is it a commercial opportunity? A source of information? A source of entertainment? A public stage to show off on?

In reply to Richard Bradley:

Of course not, its a cracking little spot - but I am sure you got my drift.


Chris

In reply to midgets of the world unite:

There is no doubt Destinations are easy to write (very formulaic), and I always get excited by new places - its what keeps me interested, sorry if it doesn't come across.


If you want epics, I have a few stories stashed away in the memory banks - have to see what we can do before I become senile and forget the lot!


Chris

Just seen this thread as im away. so some comments - for those who dont know im the alpine editor for climb

Always interesting to hear constructive feedback. So far what I can hear is that Climb needs to be less grit-centric, better edited and we need to get a variety of voices (new writers and photographers). On the later Ive already asked on this forum for proposals, and Toby (Im back next week and will email) is one of the UKC posters who will be doing something. Ive also comissioned pieces from numerous climbers who have either never been published in the UK, or are British and its been either their first or second ever published piece. But proposals are very welcome.

Re the first point up coming pieces I hope to comission or be involved in are articles on Creag Meagaidh (5 different perspectives - certainly not repetitious) Carn Gowla, Russian route on Broad Peak, Sultana Ridge on Foraker, climbing in the Tatras, trekking peaks in Nepal and the Canadian route on Trango 2 (see comments about Azeem Ridge). Thats 7 different countries at all ranges and styles of difficulty.

Re: the editing issue I work with all the writers I commission to edit and rewrite their pieces, they then go through a further editing process by another member of the editing team. Its always makes me smile when I read folk posting that so and so is crap, and theres this huge talent pool out there that would be so much better. The reality Im afraid is very different. Ive had photos sent me by people who genuinely believe that their work is better than anything in the mags and frankly their stuff is unusable, the same can be said of writing. Finally in defense of the pro photographers that some posters seem to think are crap is that there is a huge difference between taking one or two great photos over the year which are displayed on UKC galleries and getting a range of quality images about a single subject that work for an article and do that to demand.

Anyway, as I say constructive criticism and suggestions are good, so if people want to post specific subjects they'd like to see covered or email me (alpine related stuff) or the Neil and gill (rock related) proposals that would be most welcome. As a pointer you would need to have a minimum of 6 to 8 top quality photos to illustrate the piece.

In reply to Ian Parnell:

I'll second Mr Parnell on this one. Having a little experience from both sides of the coin (submitting photos to various mags and editing Summit), I haven't come across any vast hidden pool of talent out there. Well, not yet anyway...

In the case of Summit, we do send out a photographers mailing list to around 100 photographers prior to each issue. And whilst it does throw up the occasional nice surprise, most of the photos are donated (for free) from the more established photographers. It's no surprise really since they have a bigger collection, use higher quality equipment, so odds are, for any given wants list, they will send more in. If you'd like to join the mailing list by the way, email summit@thebmc.co.uk.

Likewise, Summit is also a good way of getting published, if you want to. Lots of people from these forums have had articles published in Summit. There is, for example, a "last thoughts" page. 800 words, a rant on any subject - there surely must be some contenders for that! Yes, you don't get paid. But often, if you're trying to get photos and words published to start with, you won't. As Ian says, a lot of the writing that comes in has to be heavily edited. But that's to be expected I guess. The professional writers are off writing professionally, not beating down the doors of the BMC.

Send anything in to summit@thebmc.co.uk. We can't guarantee to reply to every submission. I don't think any magazine realistically can, but will get back to you if it's of interest.

Finally I think in general people (myself included) tend to have too much attachment to their own photos and words. The harsh reality is that often they're not very good, especially since we're all bombarded with very high standard writing and images in the non-climbing media every day. Get other people to give them the once over before sending them in.

Cheers.

PS. As well as scouring the land for free content to suck into Summit, I also take photos for Climb. So if you fancy writing a UK rock article on any area, and would like to team up then give me a shout.

In reply to Ian and alex:
Hoy
Stop jumping on the band wagon you two. I asked first


C U Later

David

In reply to David Simmonite:

Just got your email. text when we you get here on 0034 686 044003 so you can make sure we are in.

Sam Orange

P.S. Its forcast rain for this weekend is that your bloody fault?

In reply to Ian Parnell: When Tony complains about a lack of editing I suspect that he means copy editing. Climb is full of misspellings, grammatical solecisms and plain gibberish - the current issue contains this on page 54

'Elegy leads you tentatively up its flake system with the height gained being exponential to the deteriorating the quality of its gear placements until the holds all but disappear'.

Like the instructions for a Japanese video recorder, you can see what the writer is trying to say but English it isn't. OK, this is a relatively minor and definitely pedantic criticism but this sort of thing does make the magazine slightly irritating to the relatively literate reader.

In reply to sandywilson:

I thought that was a good article. It gave a good account of the history of the climb, threw in the well known characters associated with it and gave a flavour of what it was like (my last 2 attempts to climb it ended in near drowning and losing the will to live, in mist, with a limping truculent second).

Is there a Peak centred editorial stance? Not sure, probably yes, but thereagin the Peak is the area of the moment. Perhaps this is due to so many climbers living in the home counties and commuting to climb, whereas I was until fairly recently Yorkshire based and thus feel Yorkshire Grit in the climbing world at large is poor cousin.


Midgets - thanks for the support regarding writing, would love to write something, although I doubt I would do justice to Steve Ashton's stuff, the concept of the Wigan Alps still has me chuckling.

In reply to John2:

Agree - found some of the grammar confusing in that article, trying to write rhythmically I think but it necissitated re-reading a couple of times.

In reply to John Rushby:

I am aware of the irony of my misspelt post......

In reply to John Rushby: Ok, despite people complaining about grit-centricity Im actually really liking the east v wes articl in the new mag which Im currently reading.

However.

The write seems to think that Blizzard Ridge is on the Rivelin pinnacle. It patently isnt. This isnt just a typo, the whole comparison with Baldstones Arete is based around a totally false premise. This doesnt really detract from the overall article that much, but I'm left wondering if they've even ever climbed the routes they're writing about!

They also think Valkyrie (Roaches) is 5a on the second pitch, which is ludicrous, the first is now harder due to polish.

In reply to Si dH:
P.S. This 5a bit is of course forgiveable if it is in the new (04) guide, Ive not got it. But if not, I think mags should always use the definitive grades.

In reply to Si dH:

Isn't it the personal opinion of whoever's describing the route? Valkyrie's got a slightly butch 4c jamming crack followed by an awkward shuffle to the stance. The top is much reachier and more technical, even if it's just a couple of moves. Unless you can't jam, obviously.

However, one of the other comparisons had my jaw dropping. Goliath's Groove and Delstree? How can you compare them? One's a straightforward bit of dead safe VS jamming for about ten feet up a vertical corner, the other is a technical masterpiece, about three times as long with a sustained and steep E1-ish finish. And it's at Hen Cloud. If Goliath's Groove even makes you breath hard then be very afraid of Delstree!

In reply to alex:



thats why you are in Climber this month then mate???
;0)

Nice article - although couldn't you find any other model than that scruff Ben??

si

In reply to Dave Garnett:
Youre talking about Valkyrie at Froggatt I think, no? Altho Im a reasonably good jammer and I dont think the crack is 4c The top half of the one at the roaches isnt either reachy or technical, its just a bit off-balance.
Grades are always opinions but I definitely think magazines should stick to those given in the guidebooks, not make up their own. My point about Blizzard Ridge was more important anyway. I dont know how that got through the editor, lol.

In reply to Si dH:



Picked up the mag earlier today - first thing I read!

..pretty big blooper!

In reply to Si dH:

Your opinions of grades of some routes are often wildly at variance with other peoples, along with Andy something. I cannot comment on what they are myself now as the routes will have altered due to wear but know that some are harder than you think and others are easier.

When someone says they found a route a certain grade, do not say they are wrong, they may be, but it may be you that is wrong instead. Just say how you found it.

In reply to Tyler:
Why do these errors creep in? Is it due to a lack of time or care/finances? For monthly articles e.g. Steve McClure's it may be the former. For example, one of his earlier pieces had pictures of weight training exercises incorrectly described, something which would be spotted instantly by a technical checker. Other articles like Andi Turner's (which I thought was excellent) are often in the pipeline for months, so mistakes like Blizzard Ridge and Shirley's Shining Temple (John traversed in from the right from Shock Horror thereby missing the technical crux) could be noticed if passed on for technical checking. This would obviously have a cost.
Graham

In reply to Graham Hoey:

The Blizzard Ridge refernce was a crime - especialally as there's a great BMC guide that shows the way!!

(sorry Andi! ;0)

si

In reply to David Simmonite: see you bright and early.hope you will have beer head on.weather not lookin brill.

In reply to sutty:
Sutty,. you're right, grades are always opinions and mine are different from everyone else's. However, I think an article in a widely-read magazine should give the definitive guidebook's grade, not the article writer's opinion. The point about blizzard ridge was more important anyway. The valkyrie thing was juts an aside because I like a grade debate

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Dude you made me break out in a cold sweat! When I did Goliath's Groove, a very well-known guidebook publisher was belaying, and he assured me that bridging for hands & feet was the correct way to do it. Only after I'd frantically scraped my way up into the easy corner, with eyeballs bulging and only just escaping full cardiac and respiratory arrest, did he add: "My dad did it a different way"

In reply to Al Downie:

I thought you were an old hand Al. You should know better! You should point said belayer at Delstree with the advice that it should be laybacked throughout.