UKC

Up to now I've tended to carry a quantity of screwgates which could loosely be described as "plenty". Inspired by some of Andy Kirkpatrick's latest Psychovertical articles, I've started thinking about cutting back. That raises the possibility of sometimes having to use two snapgates instead. There would appear to be four possible combinations:
a) both gates on the same side, gate openings at the same end
b) both gates on the same side, gate openings at opposite ends
c) gates on opposite sides, gate openings at the same end
d) gates on opposite sides, gate openings at opposite ends
Option a) would seem to have little benefit over a single snapgate. Which of the other possible orientations is best/safest? Are there circumstances in which one of the other orientations might be preferable?

In reply to Martin W: d. I would imagine anyway. Seems to have the least chance of the gates opening.

In reply to Martin W: Use this lots.

a has no benefits. c and d are the same in action as pressure could not open both (I think this is the safest).
Would use b if there was a danger of the krabs being forced against the rock as if one opened you have only one but by making sure that the gates are facing out you minimise the risk.

In reply to cragspud: Seconding Cragspuds answer on this.

In reply to Martin W:

Personally I would say b) and c). This is what I use all the time. d) is the same as a) if one of the crabs rotates and this doesn't seem as good to me even though rotation of a crab on a belay is highly unlikely.

In reply to Martin W:
While agreeing with Craig and cragspuds's comments, how does 2 snapgates in place of 1 screwgate constitute 'cutting back'? Not much to be gained by cannibalising a qd to use in place of a screwgate on belays?

In reply to Martin W:
I've always heard use "opposite and opposed", ie gates opposite side, openings opposed to each other.
Remember to consider the case where the gates are on opposite sides, but one of the krabs rotates around so that the gates end up on the same side - you want the openings to be at opposite ends at this point.

In reply to Martin W:

b and d would be my options. a would be pointless.

In reply to Monk:

I've always used d. Is rotation likely? Certainly not in the belay.

Having said that, I've been climbing overseas with locals and they've been happy to belay with an Italian hitch off one quick draw.

So I guess it's all relative...

In reply to Monk: Rotation of a crab when doubling up is slightly (very slightly) more likely as one krab may be bearing a slightly lower load than the other depending on the angles involved (usualy if one or both are resting on something solid for example).

In reply to Ridge:

2 snapgates works to save weight when one of your belay anchors is a cam or a hex racked on its own snapgate, then you just add one more instead of using a screwgate. For wires there is no advantage really. I tend to carry one spare snapgate and one or two screwgates.

In reply to Paul at work:

Forgot to add my reasons. d is what i would use most of the time, but on occassion you will find that one of the gates may come in contact with the rock and hence open one of the gates, which weakens the krab. If this contact is likely to happen i will use method b.

In reply to Craig Geddes:

the other point that I have heard is that a krab is designed so that the rope sits in the angle at the bottom/top of the krab so that the load is transferred down the spine of the krab. If the gates are on opposite sides then this is not possible.

Again, these are points of "best practice" and probably make very little difference when used in anger.

In reply to Paul at work: Same as me then

In reply to Martin W: Ooooh! Just remembered another point: krabs have to be identical - otherwise the slight variations in shape can cause one of both to be loaded strangely or not loaded at all.

In reply to Martin W:

Do you need to do this at all in a lot of instances? If the anchor is out of the way, well tensioned and not likely to be pushed against the rock and you have other anchors with screw gates in the critical places? Is everyones profusion of screw gates just SPA driven paranoia?

In reply to Monk:

Do you carry everything on seperate krabs? You could save a bit of weight by grouping similar sized gear together.

In reply to Monk:


Having played around with these various combinations at home, I don't see how having the gates on opposite sides will stop the rope/sling sitting pretty much optimally ie close to the spine of each krab, at least when the setup is under load. Can you explain in more detail?

I hadn't thought of the rotation risk; that does seem to be a potential disadvantage of d).

In reply to Wibble Wibble:

I've always done it with screwgates as that is what I was showen when I learnt to climb. However if I was short I would have no problem using just one as you have described, but if you have them, why not?

In reply to Craig Geddes:
disagree this does not have to be the case, read any good book on the mater. The opposed gates are mainly so if one gate opens and the biner fails the other shouldn't also open as it's facing the other way.

It's better to have the biners identical but not essential.

In reply to Wibble Wibble:

I think so. In reality, sometimes I'm happy to clip in a single QD and not worry about. All just depends on circumstances.

In reply to Wibble Wibble: It is not best practise. But then neither is using micro nuts etc. which most of use do. The problem is if you drop someone and you weren't using screw gates on your belay and you should have known better you have a much higher chance of getting your ass sued off. That said climbers aren't a particuarly litigious bunch and accept injury as part of the game we play. If you dropped someone on a dog walkers head however it might be a different story. At the end of the day I would do it for my self or my mates but wouldn't do it with a newbie or a client unless I had no choice.

In reply to Martin W:

I believe c) is the safest, infact safer than a screwgate!

a) is obviously pointless
b) both gates could be opened damaged if pushed against the rock
d) risk of rotation leaving you with a)

There is a sidebar on this in "The Climbers Handbook" unfortuantaly my copy is 400 miles away!

When do you plan to use this? Unless belaying off one anchor (i.e. single around a massive boulder) I use a single snapgates on the pro and 2 opposing snapgates to clip the equalised anchor to my harness. Often only carry 1 HMS screwgate to use with my belay plate.

In reply to Duncan_S:

Yep, I carry hexes and friends on individual krabs. I don't like having them grouped as I find it a faff. I also very rarely extend hexes, so by having them on seperate krabs I don't need to carry as many quickdraws. I also tend not to carry that many cams as they are heavy so having them individually racked is not an issue for me.

To answer my point about optimal loading of oppsite gate krabs - I only mentioned it as I have been told that it is best practice. I agree that in most cases the opposed krabs do line up properly so that they are loaded down the spine. Personally I am often happy not to have doubled snapgates/screwgates on all my belay points.

In reply to Monk: It's all a question of off-setting weight against security, really, isn't it? Different climbers will have different thoughts on this. In all likelihood, single snapgates would be safe as belay points on most climbs, and providing they can accommodate the clove hitches, there's nothing wrong with using opposed (by which I mean, gates on opposite sides and hinges at the same end) snapgates on your harness.

Wiregate krabs reduce the risk of cross-loading krab gates as the gate is now the strongest link in the chain.

In situations like top-roping and fixed abseil lines, however, screwgates are obviously are safer option if you're going to be leaving the anchor unattended for a while.

Whilst I agree with Andy Kirkpatrick's argument that people carry too many heavier screwgates in general, I still keep a couple of D-shapes and HMS krabs on my harness for emergencies - retreating from a multipitch route or even some sport climbs, for example.

To paraphrase an old advert I've forgotten, there are just some scenarious when it absolutely, positively, has to be a screwgate...

In reply to Removed User:



I suggest that you try b out, before writing this method off. The idea is that the back bars are on the side were the rock is.

Again with d, there is very little chance of the krabs rotating while on a belay, have you had this happen with a screwgate? The only way that this could happen is if you keep unloading and loading the belay in which case you haven't set up a good belay to start with!

In reply to Duncan_S:

Well I woudn't. I carry all my pre-extended gear (cams and hexes) with a single snaplink and group wires. I also carry about 6-8 quickdraws (even on long multi-pitch routes) and a krab (snaplink or screwgate) on the slings. If I grouped my hexes ect together and removed the krabs from slings I would loose 8 krabs but would need to carry another 4 quick draws and 2 screwgates loose giving a net saving of -2 krabs and -4 30cm slings. That arangment also prompts me to try and get hexes and cams placed early particularly on routes I think will be heavy on wires which is good practice in any case.

In reply to TRJ:


What are you talking about? if you cross load a snap link krab, no matter what the type of gate is (wire, solid) you could find yourself in trouble!


I agree completely

In reply to Martin W:

If you want to cut back, you can analyse just where a screwgate or opposing krabs are actually needed in a belay. I would argue that if an anchor is kept under tension and there is no interference to the gate, a single krab or a left over quickdraw is all you need.

In reply to davidwright:

Fair enough if you are not extending them. I find I get less problems with cams walking and rope drag if I extend them, even with just a 10cm quickdraw.

In reply to GrahamD:

As is always the case, there is best practise when working and what i do when climbing for myself.

When working with clients it is always screw gates or opposed snaplinks, on the belays.

When climbing for myself, there will be a Screw gate on the main (or the most bomber) piece of gear, then a single snap link on the other.

In both cases, when i bring the rope back to me, i use a screwgate or tie in with a figure of 8 (this again reduces the amount of screwgates that i have to carry)

I always carry just two screwgates and two snap links on my harness, plus each of the slings that i take with me will have a screwgate.

In reply to Craig Geddes:

The point of using screwgates is that vibration (not rock or impact, if that happens the belay was badly constructed) can cause the krab to open for short instants (not long enough to allow the rope to exit) which can halve the strength of the krab at the crucial microsecond of peak force. krabs back to back have much less chance of this happening to both. Even if it does the force spred over both will lead to a belay stronger than a single closed screwgate. All of this is to eliminate a small possibility of failure of a single krab. In winter or high alps I don't screw the things closed anyway. I don't know they will be loaded I do know I will want to open it again and would rather it didn't freaze closed.

In order to sue they would (or at least should) have to show that it was failure of the krab not something else that caused you to drop them. meaning either uncliping or mechanical failure seeing as the last is blindingly obvious and extreamly unlikely and very hard to prove.

In reply to Paul at work:


Well you wouldn't want to do it on purpose but top-roping/seconding you're looking at loads of about 2kn or less. Mimimum cross load rating for a modern biner is 7kn. Remember also that most pieces of kit fail well above what they are rated to (though this isn't something I would want to test with my life as it were).

In reply to Duncan_S: well the hexes have long cords on them anyway and if I am worried about cams I have single length slings with the extra krab

In reply to Craig Geddes:

You have to remember that i was replying to this statement!

Wiregate krabs reduce the risk of cross-loading krab gates as the gate is now the strongest link in the chain

In reply to Paul at work: Sorry, my mistake for not explaining/understanding properly. I realise cross-loading can still be dodgy.

I'm always keen for advise, so how many QDs and loose krabs (both screwgate and snapgate) do you tend to carry on 'typical' trad routes? By which I mean low to mid-grade multipitch onsights?

In reply to Paul at work: I think what he meant is that the biner is now stronger when cross loaded than old ones but that you still wouldn't want to do it on purpose. I agree however that it was a bit ambigious and not a good sentance to leave ambiguous.

In reply to Craig Geddes:
Remember also that most pieces of kit fail well above what they are rated to (though this isn't something I would want to test with my life as it were).


This where you will surprised, last weekend i spent some time with a member of staff from Lyon equipment, breaking things as part of a MLTE meeting!

For the older type slings i.e. 1 inch wide, your statement is true. But as with everything else these days, the drive for lighter equipment means that the newer slings don't have the same strenght as the older slings. I.e the newer slings broke at just over there rated strenghts.

The Tests for krabs are the similiar. in that you are allowed to straighten up the krab so that the load is taken down the back bar. But when the krab is allowed to sit as it would do under loading it broke at 2/3 of its rated strenght.

In reply to TRJ:


I tend to carry around 8-10 quickdraws. plus 2 snapgates and 2 screw gates. The quickdraws tend to be sized as follows:
3 60cm slings carried tripled up
3 30cm slings
2 20cm slings
2 10cm slings

I may take a few more quickdraws if climbing on Limestone as that tends to lend itself to placing loads of runners.

In reply to Martin W: If there was rotation D rotates to A !! So B and C would be my choice. I doubt a rope could come out of B if both gates open, but agree that C is probably safest.

If I have just one snapgate left for a belay point I put a clove hitch on the crab and adjust it to the correct length. I may still bring the rope back to my harness, before taking it the the next attachment point.

Andy

In reply to GrahamD:


That is what Andy K suggested as well: http://www.psychovertical.com/?screwgatecarry

In reply to Paul at work:


I thought the whole point of D-shaped krabs was that they do put the load down the back bar when loaded. One that re-orients itself away from that configuration would surely indicate a major design flaw?

In reply to Martin W:

Its the way that the standard for the krab allows the tester to make sure that the krab is loaded along the back bar. Hence thats what their design for. At the end of the day the krab has to met that standard.

It wouldn't be a design flaw as such, as the krabs that were tested still only broke at something like 14kN!

The test for cams is even more of a joke, from what we were led to believe. I.e only tested in a horizontal and a vertical placement. And not the way that you most often see cams been used in cracks, when tested that way most of the cams failed at very low loads. (i didn't see any of the cam tests this was just what we were told!)

In reply to Martin W: b,c, or d all give added security.

I think I normally go for 'c' as it happens.

I'll normally just climb with perhaps 3 screw gates on my rack which can mean I'll only have one for a multi-pitch belay. Depending what the gear is, if I've a spare wiregate I may well double up on a secondary anchor if I think there is a benefit.

I can think of numerous situations over the years where I've ended up using two snap links.

M

In reply to Martin W: If you have to do it then the one where you start off with 'a' and turn one of the krabs through 180 degrees. Anything else is far to time consuming to set (and undo) and far to complicated for my little brain to remember.

In reply to Martin W:
I think that once you allow for rotation, then a and d are equivalent (and therefore potentially pointless), and so are b and c. Starting off with b means that you can keep both gates away from an obstruction. A screwgate is potentially quicker than either though, and doesn't weigh much more than 2 snaps.
I think that Andy's point is that a single snapgate is enough for some situations, allowing you to save on weight because most people carry a couple for hexes etc. Automatically using screwgates on slings and belays when you don't always need them is not necessarily worthwhile.
Mind, the 50-100g that most of us will save in this way is hardly going to make much difference unless you're climbing something pretty extreme.

In reply to Wibble Wibble:
Is everyones profusion of screw gates just SPA driven paranoia?

I agree, SPA replaces judgement with redundancy.

In reply to scott titt:

No, it makes sure that beginers and kids are kept safe by the people responsible for them. The principles I apply to teaching are totally different to the ones I apply to personal climbing and that is the same with most other SPA holders. People seem to forget that we are just climbers ourselves in our spare time, not people who only have a piece of paper to be proud of. Even so though, when I am climbing for my self I would rather be too safe than get myself and my second killed.

In reply to Paul at work:


Would it not be more accurate to say that the standard requires the krab to be loaded along the back bar? That's the way it looks to me from the UIAA diagrams: http://www.uiaa.ch/web.test/visual/Safety/SafComPictorials/PictUIAA121-EN12... Remember that the standard also requires the krab to be tested in its weakest (non-twisting) configuration ie when loaded across the gate, and along the back bar with the gate open. So the tests tell us the upper and lower limits of the krab's strength. That seems reasonable enough to me. What other tests would you like to see in the standard? I can tell you now that whatever test you come up with, manufacturers would then design their krabs to meet that standard - because that's what standards are for.


If a krab broke at 14kn loaded along the back bar then it would not meet the UIAA standard.


The UIAA standard only requires cams to be tested in a vertical placement, and then only tests the strength of the cam, not its holding power: http://www.uiaa.ch/web.test/visual/Safety/SafComPictorials/PictUIAA125-EN12... I think you are saying that a test of the cam's ability to sustain loads which bend or twist the stem would be a good idea, and there may be some merit in that.

The full list of UIAA standards is here: http://www.uiaa.ch/?c=188

In reply to Martin W:


This wasn't when the krab was loaded along the backbar, this was when the load was allowed to sit where it wanted, i.e. more like how a rope may load the krab in fall!


Cheers for the link Martin.

In reply to Martin W: OK, now I'm home and I have my reference books to hand, here's what they say:
- John Long says a) is wrong, c) is right
- Fyffe & Peter say d) is right if the krabs are symmetrical (ie ovals), b) is right if the krabs are asymmetrical (ie D or offset D).
So it looks like, with normal modern krabs, either b) or c) is right depending on whether you are American or British...