/ Fiend's grading revolution: Revealed.

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Fiend on 01 Jun 2002 - usr1436-bra.blueyonder.co.uk [cache-cro-hsi.cableinet.co.uk]
Aeroflot - E0 5b

Billingsgate - E0 5b

Crease Direct - E0 6a

Crescent Arete - E0 5b

Dexterity - E0 5b

Fishladder - E0 5b

Flying Buttress Direct - E0 5b

The HotLine - E0 5b

Kirkus's Corner - E0 5b

The Link - E0 5b

Orpheus Wall - E0 5c

Ratline - E0 5b

Roof Route - E0 5b

The Sloth - E0 5b

Surform - E0 5b

Three Pebble Slab - E0 5a

The Vice - E0 5b

etc...
Matt - on 01 Jun 2002
In reply to Fiend:
Hardley a revolution, more of a compromise:-)
Al.Smith on 01 Jun 2002 - spider-loh-ta081.proxy.aol.com
In reply to Fiend:

The Sloth is never E0!
In reply to Al.Smith:
and its never 5b!
Chris
Matt - on 01 Jun 2002
In reply to Chris Craggs and al smith:
lol, i think you've hightlighted its fatal error!
Fiend on 02 Jun 2002 - usr1607-bra.blueyonder.co.uk [cache-cro-hsi.cableinet.co.uk]
In reply to Matt: It's compromising nature is what makes it so revolutionary - rather than re-writing an excellent grading system or cluttering it with superfluous suffixes, my awesome creation neatly slots in as a direct enhancement.

In reply to Al Smith & Craggsy: Like all grades, individual routes are open to debate and different people will have different opinions. Doesn't invalidate the whole concept though. Besides, perhaps The Sloth is 5a - in which case it's an ideal E0 5a compared to obviously tamer HVS 5as.
steev on 02 Jun 2002
In reply to Fiend:

this has raised an interesting question in my mind. as i have never climbed E1, but am hoping to before the summer's out, what's the jump between HVS and E1 like?

E1 just 'sounds' so much scarier.
sutty on 02 Jun 2002
In reply to steev:
Depends on the route, if you are used to running it out on HVS a poorly protected E1 might suit you as a lot of the difficulty will be for the poor pro. A well protected one would be harder but you would not die on it unless unlucky.
Just go out and try one, you may find no difference and dont forget, some E1s are easier than some HVS routes.
Fiend on 02 Jun 2002 - 213-48-171-47.bra.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk [62.31.64.2]
In reply to steev: Well now there's not really a jump any more!! More like a smooth transition.
steev on 03 Jun 2002
In reply to Fiend:

cheers for the help.

i think i'll try seconding E1 next weekend.

goodbye fingertips, hello tendonitis.
tobyfk - on 04 Jun 2002
In reply to Fiend:

I'd like your idea better if it was an all encompassing 'not extreme' grade so we could forget all that adjectival nonsense.

ie everything under E1 was E0 without exception.

Exactly as V0 is the lowest bouldering grade even though to a beginner there are probably harder and easier ones ...

This also fits with E-point collecting - does anyone still do this? - climbing an E0 gives you zero E-points.
AndyM on 06 Jun 2002 - gateway101.gsi.gov.uk
In reply to tobyfk:
I'd like your idea better if it was an all encompassing 'not extreme' grade so we could forget all that adjectival nonsense.

ie everything under E1 was E0 without exception.

How very boring and elitist. Adjectival grades allied to a technical grade on a semi-sliding system are what make our grading system so much more superior than single category systems.
Fiend on 07 Jun 2002 - usr1444-bra.blueyonder.co.uk [cache-cro-hsi.cableinet.co.uk]
In reply to tobyfk: *Sigh*. One of the multifarious purposes of this grading revolution is to give more accurate representation in an area where it is most needed, not lump everything in one category. You are obviously not worthy of using this updated system.
Martin Brierley on 07 Jun 2002 - 130.246.240.41 [wwwcache3.rl.ac.uk]
In reply to steev:
> (In reply to Fiend)
>
what's the jump between HVS and E1 like?
>

as far as I reckon anyhoo, if you can do HVS, then you can probably do easy E1, it's just that the jump between easy E1 to normal E2 is rather large

Graham on 07 Jun 2002 - nccsu16.prw.le.ac.uk [swithland.le.ac.uk]
In reply to Fiend:

A jolly good idea!

G
SteveC on 07 Jun 2002 - dyn042044.shef.ac.uk [werewolf.shef.ac.uk]
In reply to steev: Depends where you are and what you like climbing. Isn't that the beauty of the grading system - that it doesn't tell you everything? I mainly climb on grit, and there are HVSs that I've backed off (scary ground fall in prospect) and I've also done a couple of E2s - gear protecting hard moves. Just back from a weekend in Wales, same story - slate E2s (cracks not slabs) were hard but fun, Dream of White Horses (HVS) really freaked me. So get some local advice and pick your routes - grades don't tell you everything!

The other side of that argument is to not get too hung up on grades - if you find an HVS harder/scarier than an E1, is the E1 better/harder/more worthwhile? IMHO not, but the tyranny of guidebooks/grades is pretty strong.

John Gillott - on 07 Jun 2002
In reply to Fiend:

OK Fiend, seriously now--are you saying the jump between HVS and E1 is bigger than all the other jumps, or are we to expect a revival of VS(-) etc as well, not forgetting E2.5?
Fiend on 07 Jun 2002 - usr5-bra.blueyonder.co.uk [cache-cro-hsi.cableinet.co.uk]
In reply to John Gillott: I'm not saying it is necessarily bigger but it's obviously big enough and contentious enough (see list above) to justify my remarkable creation. As for VS(-), that already exists: MVS (and E0 is continuing that same tradition).
m@ on 07 Jun 2002 - leighmail.demon.co.uk
In reply to Fiend:

what on earth have the tellitubbies got to do with british technical grades?

;o)

think about it!!!!!!

laterzz

m@
Chris Fryer - on 07 Jun 2002
In reply to m@: Mildly Amusing ;)
ads.ukclimbing.com
tobyfk - on 08 Jun 2002
In reply to Fiend:
> (In reply to tobyfk) You are obviously not worthy of using this updated system.

Probably not worthy of the established system either to be honest.

Anyway ... consulting the esteemed Mr Ryan's Rockfax Bishop Bouldering Survival Kit I discover there is of course a VB grade below VO ... so by analogy:

EB: VDiff 'n all that stuff
E0: HVS and maybe VS - time for a rope perhaps
E1: E1
E2: E2
etc

AndyM on 09 Jun 2002 - ldsas04-68-119-135.cw-visp.com
In reply to John Gillott:

Agree with you there. There should be no differing jump between HVS and E1 any more than there should be between othjer adjacent grades. If there is, people are just grading things badly. Its a linear scale with reasonably fixed intervals so no particular reason for cock ups. More important is the keeping the range within grades consistent then everyone knows where they are (some hope). And anyway if the system was completely correct how dull that would be.
Fiend on 13 Jun 2002 - usr1419-bra.blueyonder.co.uk [cache-cro-hsi.cableinet.co.uk]
In reply to AndyM: Well it seems there is, as you can see from the list above. You can either go stick with the old ways and fill Rocktalk full of threads moaning that "Three Pebble Slab is never E1" and "The Sloth looks well hard for HVS", or you can join the bright, glorious, and accurately graded future. Simple eh.
the pylon king on 16 Jun 2002 - inktomi2-lee.server.ntl.com
In reply to Fiend:
SATAN'S SLIP E0 4d
Fiend on 24 Jun 2002 - 213-48-74-193.bra.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk [62.30.0.2]
In reply to the pylon king: Excellent Mr King, I'm glad your support has been rewarded by finding the new system useful further afield.
Fiend on 02 Jul 2002 - 213-48-74-249.bra.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk [cache-cro-hsi.cableinet.co.uk]
In reply to Fiend: A couple more have filtered through, inspired by recent RT arguments that have proved beyond any doubt the relevance and importance of this new grade (to those infidels who dare doubt, the evidence is there).

Anniversary Arete - E0 5b

Cent - E0 5b
Michael Ryan - on 02 Jul 2002
In reply to tobyfk:

> Exactly as V0 is the lowest bouldering grade even though to a beginner there are probably harder and easier ones ...

Not so Toby...we at the Rockfax USA Bouldering Think Tank have introduced the VB rating for problems easier than V0-.......stands for Very Basic, Very Beginner, or even Vertical Brain...

The VB circuits around Bishop are very popular.

Mick
John Gillott - on 02 Jul 2002
In reply to Fiend:

Fiend,

A casual mental trip along Curbar has revealed the need for a new grading system. I humbly suggest:

The Left Eliminate E1.5
L’Horla E1.5
Smoke ont’ Watter E1.5
Soyuz E1.5

Oh, and maybe there’s another gap I need to fill…

Moon Walk E3.5

…………
Fiend on 02 Jul 2002 - 213-48-74-249.bra.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk [cache-cro-hsi.cableinet.co.uk]
In reply to John Gillott: Tres witty but somewhat superfluous onethinks.
John Gillott - on 02 Jul 2002
In reply to Fiend:

C'mon then Fiend, show me why there's more of a gap between HVS and E1 than E1 and E2. Didn't Mike Whittaker post some stats on here a while ago about the number of climbers operating a various grades. Does that help at all?
tobyfk - on 02 Jul 2002
In reply to Mick - Rockfax USA:
Mick you missed my second contribution to this thread - step forward 'EB' ....
Fiend on 02 Jul 2002 - 213-48-74-249.bra.cvx.blueyonder.co.uk [cache-har.cableinet.co.uk]
In reply to John Gillott: The arguments on RT prove how contentious the HVS and E1 grades, and the gap between them, are. There have been quite a few such discussions recently which obviously you have missed.

Also the fact that so many routes (several more I haven't posted) neatly slot into the E0 category shows what a useful grade it is.
John Gillott - on 02 Jul 2002
In reply to Fiend: No, I did see the debates. Breaking into the E grades is always a big thing for a climber so they like to talk about it. There is quite a range over E1, though of course there's also a great deal of subjectivity about it (e.g. The Vice is almost E2 according to PGE). But the range across E2 is also significant. Insanity, Billy Whizz, Cave Eliminate; these routes are well above Pot Black, Wuthering and Soyuz. In fact I'd downgrade the latter two routes to E1.

Mind you, E3 looks pretty compact in the PGE graded list. Maybe we need to stretch that a bit, thus reducing the variation within the E1 & E2 grades.

There's a project for you ;-)
Al Evans on 02 Jul 2002
In reply to John Gillott: What are we poncing about at? Obviously the most flexible system would be a combination of the Australian 1 to whatever you like grade combined with some sort of technical indication of the grade too. Why dont we do something that logical and simple, because we are Brits!!!!!!

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