UKC

dodgy ice screw - the wand

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 Jack Frost 05 Apr 2006
I found this photo of an ascent of the Wand last week on the winternet site. Is it just me or does the ice screw placement in this pic look a bit dodgy?

perhaps the move was a bit desperate but I would have tied it off with sling rather than clipping the krab to the end

any thoughts?

http://www.winternet-scotland.co.uk/reports/macmountaineering/wand.JPG

 Rubbishy 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost:

I would have tied it off, who am I kidding, I never put gear in anyway as anyone who has climbed with me will attest to!
 Wibble Wibble 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost:

All the ice screws I've ever put in have been dodgy one way or another.
gourd 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost:

This was explained by the placer in another thread earlier this week.

But apparently tying off is worse than clipping in anyway.
 Norrie Muir 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost:
> any thoughts?
>
Dear jack

Why would anybody need an ice screw there in the first place.

Norrie
 Wibble Wibble 05 Apr 2006
In reply to gourd:

When tied off the main failure mode is the sling sliding down the screw and being cut by the hanger. Obviously clipping in the hanger you avoid this, but increase the leaverage. So it's six of one and half a dozen of the other, the key being don't fall off I guess.
OP Jack Frost 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Norrie Muir:

Indeed! I did think the same thing but didn't want to be too critical unlike yourself Norrie. The ground above and below the screw looks quite friendly.
Simon22 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost:
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
>
> Indeed! I did think the same thing but didn't want to be too critical unlike yourself Norrie. The ground above and below the screw looks quite friendly.

I was more suprised that it was placed 2ft from the belay.

darbinotley 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost: If you tie off a screw, especially with a clove hitch, sudden loading (i.e. a fall) can cause the tube of the screw to deform, thus grealty reducing not only the actual strength of the screw, but also its holding power in the ice. In addition, as already mentioned the sling can also fall off or be cut.

As for why it was placed, who knows? Perhaps the ice was fragile there, perhaps the second (client?) needed to practice removing and racking ice screws, so placing one near the belay would allow for easier instrcution? I'm sure that we've all placed a runner at some point in our lives, then got to the top/belay and thought "why did I bother placign that?".
darbinotley 05 Apr 2006
In reply to darbinotley:

>
> As for why it was placed, who knows? Perhaps the ice was fragile there,

to deflect further comment, I meant to say "above there". Obviously fragile ice is not a good place to put a screw in.
 Laubie 05 Apr 2006
Look closely, I think the belayer is using single front points/mono points. If he is that good he must be;

a) a Guide teaching a client
b) Wanna bee, with all the gear does not know how to use it!
c) Or the simple case is we have no Idea why, because we were'nt there!!
 Norrie Muir 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Laubie:

Dear Laubie

I think both a) and b).

Norrie
 KeithW 05 Apr 2006
In reply to darbinotley:
>
>I'm sure that we've all placed a runner at some point in our lives, then got to the top/belay and thought "why did I bother placign that?".

Indeed - I've been known to place a bit of gear and then not clip the rope to it. I'm dead hard, me.

 beermonkey 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost:

Interesting that there's plenty of people happy to make scathing comments about this persons' climbing, but how many of you were out there climbing yourselves?
Simon22 05 Apr 2006
In reply to beermonkey:

Can you let me know what date it was taken on?
 KeithW 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Simon22:

It was 23/3/06 - a Thursday, so I was at work.
The previous Sunday I was in Moss Ghyll, Scafell crag.
Simon22 05 Apr 2006
In reply to KeithW:
> (In reply to Simon22)
>
> It was 23/3/06 - a Thursday, so I was at work.


So was I, as I was not out climbing that day I re-tract my previous comment.

In reply to Jack Frost:

There's been a lot of debate about this in recent years, but the consensus seems to be that about five centimetres is the broad-brush rule of thumb between tying off and clipping. It's hard to tell from the photo, but it looks like a borderline case.

Here is the article from the Needlesports website:

http://www.needlesports.com/advice/placingscrews.htm
petemac 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost: "is it just me or does that ice screw placement look a bit dodgy?
What a stupid statement to make , who are you 'Jack state the obvious Frost' Of course the screw placement was bad i should know i placed it!. And while placing it i noticed i was within a few feet of the belay(which i hadn't noticed before as i was enjoying the climbing so much). The screw bottomed out and i decided to leave it rather than re-place it.On the spur of the moment i decided not to tie it off which i normally do or remove it altogether and instead clipped it and made the 2 or 3 moves to the belay as it was neither desperate nor was i in extremis.As you should very well know there are hundreds of different circumstances and situations in winter climbing which determine events.Nothing is cut and dried, so stop trying to be a smart arse.
Pete M
petemac 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Simon22: i quite often place gear (admittedly better than that screw) fairly near a belay. Just because you are near a belay doesnt mean you can not fall.
It amazes me how alot of people (but not all) on this forum would like to think the worst of someone and start slagging them without knowing anything about the person or the circumstances.I think its got alot to do with the fact that they are stuck at work while others enjoy the great conditions.Get a grip !!
 Norrie Muir 05 Apr 2006
In reply to petemac:
I think its got alot to do with the fact that they are stuck at work while others enjoy the great conditions.Get a grip !!

Dear peter

Are you a guide?

Norrie
petemac 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Norrie Muir: No
OP Jack Frost 05 Apr 2006
In reply to petemac:

Hello Pete M

Maybe you should have thought twice about uploading the photo, or even better you could have added a caption saying "Before you all start whingeing, yes I know that screw looks dodgy but it was because etc etc".

I have a pic in my gallery which illustrates some dodgy rope management. Feel free to use this as an example of how not to manage ropes.

Yes I am well aware of the unpredictable nature of winter climbing and that you have to be able to adapt to the conditions you find.

I am not trying to be a smart arse, on the contrary, I was just asking for other whingers opinions on whether the screw would hold as is, or would be safer tied off. There have been a number of interesting views expressed so far in this thread.

Anyway congratulations on your ascent. The Wand is a nice wee route.
RobE 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost:
> (In reply to petemac)
>
> Hello Pete M
>
> Maybe you should have thought twice about uploading the photo, or even better you could have added a caption saying "Before you all start whingeing, yes I know that screw looks dodgy but it was because etc etc".

WTF?
OP Jack Frost 05 Apr 2006
In reply to RobE:

Ever heard of tongue-in-cheek?
RobE 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost:

It's often lost in the interweb highway wires.
In reply to RobE:
>
> WTF?

My reaction entirely.

 Norrie Muir 05 Apr 2006
In reply to petemac:

Dear peter

So why did you place the ice screw where you did? From your photo the ice does not look thick enough there, however, there does seen to be thick ice nearby.

Norrie
In reply to petemac:

Reminds me of the time I was climbing in the Alps. The gear was non-existant but after a bit of fiddling I just about managed to get a psychological friend in.

"Excuse the dodgy friend" I called down to my partner.

When he joined me at the stance he said sarcastically : "would you like me to teach you how to place a friend properly?"

Wassock! I never took him climbing again.
 Jim Haydock 05 Apr 2006
Oh my god - "look at me" - "Look at me" - Isn't everybody so perfect.
Stop whinging the lot of you........ not everybody is a brilliant Grade 9/10 winter climber. We all do things as and when we see fit and I think Pete's explained exactly why he did what he did - let him get on with it and sort yourselves out.
 TobyA 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Norrie Muir: Just remember Norrie, not every one has your superhero, ice-piercing, x-ray vision. Sometimes we just put a screw in, hit rock, say "bugger", take it out and try again. Life is hard for us mere-mortals but what can you do? ...Short of engineering an accident involving a small nuclear reactor and spider, obviously?
 Norrie Muir 05 Apr 2006
In reply to TobyA:

Dear Toby

You may not know it, but I have used an ice screw once, so I have little experience of placing them, however, I thought everybody can tell when the ice is thick/thin. Some may only climb in thick ice conditions, so don't realise ice can be thin or they can't read the ice.

Norrie
 TobyA 05 Apr 2006
In reply to Norrie Muir:
> however, I thought everybody can tell when the ice is thick/thin.

I know this is common problem for superheros, they often forget the little people don't have the same special powers with them. That Superman was always getting his mates to leap off tall building with him forgetting they couldn't fly. Then he'd have to catch them, the loon!
 Norrie Muir 05 Apr 2006
In reply to TobyA:
> (In reply to Norrie Muir)
> I know this is common problem for superheros, they often forget the little people don't have the same special powers with them. That Superman was always getting his mates to leap off tall building with him forgetting they couldn't fly. Then he'd have to catch them, the loon!

Dear Toby

You have been watching and believing too many Films.

Norrie
chembhoy 09 Apr 2006
In reply to Jack Frost: coming a bit late to this thread, jsut read it through and couldnt help but notice (as usual) some people more than happy to criticise others, which is fair enough! The person who placed the ice screw has acknowledged it wasnt perfect, but it was him climbing, he survived, enjoyed the experience... This thread has provided a topic of conversation on ice screw safety and those who perhaps havent done any winter leading (MYSELF INCLUDED) may have learnt something from what was said...

Its all good people...

Did anyone watch the poker last night on eurosport??? the egos on the feature table were comparable to some of the egos that float around this forum from time to time!!!


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