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Just reading the other thread about dirty gore-tex & it struck me from reading a number of the comments that most people don't realise how thorough the gore-tex guarantee is.
Gore-tex is guaranteed for life. This means if your jacket is leaking (must be in otherwise reasonable condition though) you can return it. Obviously you have to wash it first, in an approved product. However you can return Gore-tex if it's leaking this means rather than spending money on reproofing it you should be able to get a new jacket out of it. Reproofing will only reseal the outer fabric it will not repair the membrane so the jacket will continue to leak after the reproofing agent has worn off.
Public service announcement from F4S (who's gotten about 6 new jackets over the years cause of this).
Gore-tex is guaranteed for life. This means if your jacket is leaking (must be in otherwise reasonable condition though) you can return it. Obviously you have to wash it first, in an approved product. However you can return Gore-tex if it's leaking this means rather than spending money on reproofing it you should be able to get a new jacket out of it. Reproofing will only reseal the outer fabric it will not repair the membrane so the jacket will continue to leak after the reproofing agent has worn off.
Public service announcement from F4S (who's gotten about 6 new jackets over the years cause of this).
In reply to Frank4short: but, if its not really leaking cos of a dodgy membrane, but just cos its dirty and needs washing and reproofing, you might as well try washing and reproofing first.
ps the guarantee is good, rob got a new pair of trousers from them, as his old ones didnt breath.
ps the guarantee is good, rob got a new pair of trousers from them, as his old ones didnt breath.
In reply to ceri: Myth! Gore-tex doesn't leak cause it's dirty, it leaks cause the membrane is compromised. If your jacket is dirty & leaking by all means wash it first but don't reproof it. Then take it out & see whether it's still leaking. Odds are you'll find the answer to this is yes after a couple of tips out & about.
I believe Gore-tex & various manufacturers & distributors of their product are spreading this particular myth as fact as the guarantee costs them alot of money.
I believe Gore-tex & various manufacturers & distributors of their product are spreading this particular myth as fact as the guarantee costs them alot of money.
In reply to Frank4short: does this mean that my old mountain equipment jacket which seems to be 'seperating' (the fabric around the neck and upper back seems to be coming apart, almost like the membrane is peeling off) could be replaced?!?
In reply to Frank4short: its more of a satisfaction guarantee, if you send it back and say it definately leaks and cause a polite fuss, they give you a new one, you wouldnt want lots of people going around saying, gore is crap it fell apart on me, what you have is people saying gore is great they gave me a new jkt when i had a problem, therefore helps keep gore at the top of the pile, (cynical marketing view)
In reply to frecro:
oooh delamination, its worn out, should of sent it back for a new one before that happened.
honestly most likely you can get a new one out of it, as long as its not been dragged through a hedge backwards, do you have proof of purchase?
> (In reply to Frank4short) does this mean that my old mountain equipment jacket which seems to be 'seperating' (the fabric around the neck and upper back seems to be coming apart, almost like the membrane is peeling off) could be replaced?!?
oooh delamination, its worn out, should of sent it back for a new one before that happened.
honestly most likely you can get a new one out of it, as long as its not been dragged through a hedge backwards, do you have proof of purchase?
In reply to Frank4short: I'd be interested to know what they do if they dont make the jacket anymore.
In reply to gear boy: no, its very old!
In reply to g taylor: Happened me recently got a credit note for a new nth face gore-tex jacket to a certain value.
In reply to g taylor:
manufacturer will give credit or newest closest alternative, i upgraded (if thats what it is, from gucci super alpine to torre to another torre to a ice nine like this, i love patagonia!
> (In reply to Frank4short) I'd be interested to know what they do if they dont make the jacket anymore.
manufacturer will give credit or newest closest alternative, i upgraded (if thats what it is, from gucci super alpine to torre to another torre to a ice nine like this, i love patagonia!
In reply to frecro: That's a sticky one. Really depends who you know e.g. if you can get it into the system odds are it'll be replaced it's just finding a shop to take it back. This usually means knowing someone in an outdoors shop to do the return for you. Oh & you'll probably have to pay the shipping if you can't provide proof of purchase.
In reply to frecro: how old? going back about 10-15 years or so, not sure exactly, the warranty was only 3 years old, and to be honest if its that old, you probavly have got your moneys worth and gore would say fare wear and tear
if you are going to rip off the system do it every 2-3 years and keep receipts
if you are going to rip off the system do it every 2-3 years and keep receipts
In reply to Frank4short:
but 'life' means the lifetime of the goretex, not you. ie it's guaranteed until it wears out due to normal wear and tear.
Though they usually replace them anyway.
> Gore-tex is guaranteed for life.
but 'life' means the lifetime of the goretex, not you. ie it's guaranteed until it wears out due to normal wear and tear.
Though they usually replace them anyway.
In reply to Frank4short: paying the shipping would be worth it, but i would have to work pretty hard to convince a shop to take it back, it looks pretty battered! I think i'll stick with it until i come into some money!
In reply to gear boy:
Guarantee is for life! However they have a way around this they say it's based on a designated lifespan for the purpose of use e.g. if you're an extreme alpin mountaineer climbing ED & above regularly the listed guarantee is only about 6 months to a year. However if you were to say you use it for rainy days going to work, the od game of golf & hillwalking occasionally the lifespan would be considerably increasede.
> the warranty was only 3 years old, and to be honest if its that old,
Guarantee is for life! However they have a way around this they say it's based on a designated lifespan for the purpose of use e.g. if you're an extreme alpin mountaineer climbing ED & above regularly the listed guarantee is only about 6 months to a year. However if you were to say you use it for rainy days going to work, the od game of golf & hillwalking occasionally the lifespan would be considerably increasede.
In reply to gear boy: i think its about 6-7 years old, and to be honest, i probably have got my moneys worth
In reply to Frank4short: OK, it doesnt leak when dirty, but gore-tex may stop breathing because its dirty, and the DWR coating can stop working so well, so the outer layer appears wet, giving the user the impression that the gore-tex leaks, only to find that in fact the problem is loss of breathability and water-shedding, which could be cured by proper care.
In reply to Frank4short: i said gore used to be a 3 year warranty 10-15 years ago so if you have very old jkt it wont be covered
In reply to ceri: also the breathability is reduced greatly if the face fabric is wetted out, thats why keeping the dwr topped up helps, it doesnt stop moving moisture just at a lot slower rate therefore people think it leaks
In reply to gear boy: Sorry mis-read what you said. May clarify matters to other though.
In reply to Ceri: This may be the case but then again I'm a firm believer in the fact that i should get my moneys worth out of what i pay for outdoors equipment. If this means getting a new jacket every 2/3 years through careful management of ger-tex's guarantee policy all the better. I would also encourage other to do the same as i feel these jackets, etc. cost enough why not?
In reply to Ceri: This may be the case but then again I'm a firm believer in the fact that i should get my moneys worth out of what i pay for outdoors equipment. If this means getting a new jacket every 2/3 years through careful management of ger-tex's guarantee policy all the better. I would also encourage other to do the same as i feel these jackets, etc. cost enough why not?
In reply to Frank4short:
This is the wording from Gore's website:
<quote>
GORE-TEX® Fabrics Guaranteed To Keep You Dry®
If you are not completely satisfied with the waterproofness, windproofness, or breathability of our GORE-TEX® outerwear then we will repair it, replace it, or refund your purchase price.
If you find any reason for complaint, you should first of all return to the store where you bought the item. Retail stores that sell our products want you to be satisfied just as we do. They will tell you what to do in order to have your garment repaired. The guarantee is applied to all GORE-TEX® garments that carry the GORE-TEX® Guaranteed To Keep You Dry® logo but it depends on the condition of the garment.
The policy is to make an individual judgement based on normal wear and tear to the garment compared to obvious failure in the manufacturing.
The guarantee will also follow the domestic legal consumer recommendations for returns.
</quote>
Note the comment about wear and tear vs manufacturing defect. To me, this says it's a reasonable guarantee that the fabric will be free from manufacturing defects. It doesn't say that you can have a new jacket when you've worn the old one out.
Personally, I think that Gore-tex is a triumph of marketing. This is not to say that it doesn't perform. For many years, it was the best you could get. I'd say that it isn't today.
I say that it's a triumph of marketing because it's pretty clear that most Gore-tex consumers don't really care about breathability. If they did, Gore would be seeing a huge number of returns once people had washed their garments as per Gore's instructions, which recommend the use of detergents. Once you use detergent to wash any DWR, you negate its effect, so the garment wets out, and bang goes the breathability; you can't pass water vapour through a layer of water.
So, why do Gore insist on specifying detergent for cleaning? My only conclusion is that they believe customers want an easy-care solution, so the use of domestic detergents is the easiest answer. This can only mean that most customers don't really need or understand the breathability issue.
This is the wording from Gore's website:
<quote>
GORE-TEX® Fabrics Guaranteed To Keep You Dry®
If you are not completely satisfied with the waterproofness, windproofness, or breathability of our GORE-TEX® outerwear then we will repair it, replace it, or refund your purchase price.
If you find any reason for complaint, you should first of all return to the store where you bought the item. Retail stores that sell our products want you to be satisfied just as we do. They will tell you what to do in order to have your garment repaired. The guarantee is applied to all GORE-TEX® garments that carry the GORE-TEX® Guaranteed To Keep You Dry® logo but it depends on the condition of the garment.
The policy is to make an individual judgement based on normal wear and tear to the garment compared to obvious failure in the manufacturing.
The guarantee will also follow the domestic legal consumer recommendations for returns.
</quote>
Note the comment about wear and tear vs manufacturing defect. To me, this says it's a reasonable guarantee that the fabric will be free from manufacturing defects. It doesn't say that you can have a new jacket when you've worn the old one out.
Personally, I think that Gore-tex is a triumph of marketing. This is not to say that it doesn't perform. For many years, it was the best you could get. I'd say that it isn't today.
I say that it's a triumph of marketing because it's pretty clear that most Gore-tex consumers don't really care about breathability. If they did, Gore would be seeing a huge number of returns once people had washed their garments as per Gore's instructions, which recommend the use of detergents. Once you use detergent to wash any DWR, you negate its effect, so the garment wets out, and bang goes the breathability; you can't pass water vapour through a layer of water.
So, why do Gore insist on specifying detergent for cleaning? My only conclusion is that they believe customers want an easy-care solution, so the use of domestic detergents is the easiest answer. This can only mean that most customers don't really need or understand the breathability issue.
In reply to captain paranoia:
My point was that with as you put it wear & tear the membrane itself will fail in betweeen the 2 layers of fabric after a certain amount of use due to it's relatively fragile nature. This point could be long before the actual garment itself shows any signs of wear & tear in a well kept garment. Which will effectively allow the owner of said garment to guarantee it to get a new garment. I can testify to this as I've done it 6 times.
I'm well aware of the fact that gore is no longer the supperior fabric on the market. It is however quite functionally adequate for me as user for most of what i do so long as it isn't raining. The fact that they give me new jackets every few years makes it all the better.
As to the washing instructions on Gore's website i can only surmise as you did it's for ease of care to most users. The majority of which probably buy gore more for a brand name than for it's function as a product.
My point was that with as you put it wear & tear the membrane itself will fail in betweeen the 2 layers of fabric after a certain amount of use due to it's relatively fragile nature. This point could be long before the actual garment itself shows any signs of wear & tear in a well kept garment. Which will effectively allow the owner of said garment to guarantee it to get a new garment. I can testify to this as I've done it 6 times.
I'm well aware of the fact that gore is no longer the supperior fabric on the market. It is however quite functionally adequate for me as user for most of what i do so long as it isn't raining. The fact that they give me new jackets every few years makes it all the better.
As to the washing instructions on Gore's website i can only surmise as you did it's for ease of care to most users. The majority of which probably buy gore more for a brand name than for it's function as a product.
In reply to Frank4short:
How can I put this?
[Please Mister Moderator, the Geneva Protocols dont apply here, so I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE F0CK1NG PRISONERS!]
Frank, you're a t055er.
I worked part-time in an outdoor shop for years. Because of my technical background, I usually got the job of explaining modern fabric technology to those customers who were interested. We replaced all sorts of stuff under warranty for people WHO WERE NOT INTELLECTUALLY CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING HOW TO USE AND CARE FOR A PRODUCT.
How can I put this?
[Please Mister Moderator, the Geneva Protocols dont apply here, so I DON'T HAVE TO TAKE F0CK1NG PRISONERS!]
Frank, you're a t055er.
I worked part-time in an outdoor shop for years. Because of my technical background, I usually got the job of explaining modern fabric technology to those customers who were interested. We replaced all sorts of stuff under warranty for people WHO WERE NOT INTELLECTUALLY CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING HOW TO USE AND CARE FOR A PRODUCT.
In reply to Frank4short:
Gore remains out in front partly because of assertive marketing and use or misuse of an initial monopoly position. However, much of their success is due to hard work and product quality in design and manufacture. Some of this is achieved by listening to the users of the product.
Its easy to measure all this, even for Frank, because many producers are now completely up-front about the measurements of breathability and waterproofing.
Waterproofing is measured in terms of the hydrostatic head. This is the height of the column of water that the fabric could hold before leaking. Usually, to be called 'waterproof', a fabric must hold a 2000mm column. Does that sound a lot? It does, until you realise that Goretex is up around 30000mm and the competition is in the range of about 14000mm to 23000mm. (Out-of-date. These are 2003 figures.)
Ski and board wear is often in the range 3000 to 9000mm. This works fine when you have no rucksack straps forcing the water through the membrane. If you are off-pisting with a rucksack you need a mountaineering jacket.
Breathability is measured in terms of the quantity of water (in gaseous form) that can pass through one square metre of fabric in 24 hours (g/m^2-24hr). This figure has a similar scale to the hydrostatic head figure for waterproofing. For Goretex the figure is between 9000 and 12500g/m^2-24hr (2003 figures again). The competition is well up there on breathability. I think Salewa were the champions of the world on this one at about 14000.
All of this is highly dependent on maintaining a highly repellent surface finish on the outer fabric. By that method, most of the water falling on the garment remains in droplet-form and simply runs off.
Generally, if the jacket you buy is designed for posing then all these figures will be low. If the jacket is designed for ascending alpine north faces or for ski-mountaineering then the figures will be high.
There is a marked trade-off between breathability and durability within any range of fabrics. This can be seen within the Gore range and it is equally true for others.
Gore remains out in front partly because of assertive marketing and use or misuse of an initial monopoly position. However, much of their success is due to hard work and product quality in design and manufacture. Some of this is achieved by listening to the users of the product.
Its easy to measure all this, even for Frank, because many producers are now completely up-front about the measurements of breathability and waterproofing.
Waterproofing is measured in terms of the hydrostatic head. This is the height of the column of water that the fabric could hold before leaking. Usually, to be called 'waterproof', a fabric must hold a 2000mm column. Does that sound a lot? It does, until you realise that Goretex is up around 30000mm and the competition is in the range of about 14000mm to 23000mm. (Out-of-date. These are 2003 figures.)
Ski and board wear is often in the range 3000 to 9000mm. This works fine when you have no rucksack straps forcing the water through the membrane. If you are off-pisting with a rucksack you need a mountaineering jacket.
Breathability is measured in terms of the quantity of water (in gaseous form) that can pass through one square metre of fabric in 24 hours (g/m^2-24hr). This figure has a similar scale to the hydrostatic head figure for waterproofing. For Goretex the figure is between 9000 and 12500g/m^2-24hr (2003 figures again). The competition is well up there on breathability. I think Salewa were the champions of the world on this one at about 14000.
All of this is highly dependent on maintaining a highly repellent surface finish on the outer fabric. By that method, most of the water falling on the garment remains in droplet-form and simply runs off.
Generally, if the jacket you buy is designed for posing then all these figures will be low. If the jacket is designed for ascending alpine north faces or for ski-mountaineering then the figures will be high.
There is a marked trade-off between breathability and durability within any range of fabrics. This can be seen within the Gore range and it is equally true for others.
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