UKC

Is it just me or are the climbs at Almscliff undergraded? I've climbed VS4c at Stanage, Brimham and Almscliff and I can see the correlation between climbs at Stanage and Brimham but struggle to see it at Almscliff. It seems to me that a VS4c at Almscliff is more like a HVS5a. I know the climbing from crag to crag can be different but surely this disparity has been noticed by others...either that or I'm in severe need of practice!

In reply to sculptor:

The only problems i've had at almscliff are due to the wind blowing me all over the place.

As for the grades, they works well, in comparasion to outer site you mentioned i think.

I may be that some routes feel bigger due to being exposed to the valley?

In reply to sculptor:

It's just that it's mostly steep and polished and there aren't many soft touch routes there, at other places you tend to get more routes that are low in the grade but at Almscliff they tend to be high in the grade. Not necessarily undergraded, just towards the top of the grade they are in.
That said, Z-climb must be a contender for the hardest VS on grit.

In reply to sculptor: There is nothing wrong with the grades at Armscliff. It is Stanage and the like which are soft touch!

Only men climb at Armscliff!

In reply to MeMeMe:

Word.

In reply to sculptor:

I think they're not too far off. A lot depends on the style of climbing you're used to, although there are some inconsistencies. Off the top of my head and using the database on here we have, (All in my opinion!):

The Stew Pot overgraded at HVD, nothing too tricky there.
Fluted Columns now gets S4a, which is maybe slightly overgraded but about right.
Which is easier than Pinnacle Flake Climb which also gets S4a.
Which is far, far easier than the polished horror that is V Chimney and Traverse S4a, in fact Square Chimney and Whiskey Crack at VS4b has nothing as bad as the start of this route.

I have blocked South Chimney (D) from my mind...

In reply to Ridge:
.

It's VD in the last YMC Gritstone guide, why/how/where did it get upgraded?!
Nice route though.

In reply to sculptor: hahahaha.... Welcome to Yorkshire!! As already stated, there's nothing wrong with Almscliff grading at all. The problem is with the other places where the climbs have been graded by people who think the escalator in Marks & Spencers should be at least a v-diff!!

In reply to sculptor:

The best word to describe he crag is 'Local'. Says everything really, especially with it being in 'mean spirited' Yorkshire!

Fantastic place though, you can blame em for wanting to put people off...

In reply to sculptor: I personally think Almscliff is undergraded. Either that or I'm deluding myself!! Fluted Columns used to be a v.diff, now it's a severe...

In reply to Ridge:


Wasn't this graded as v.diff too a couple of years ago? I agree the start is yuk.

In reply to MeMeMe:

As an Almscliffe regular who is well used to the supposedly difficult grades I can say that Z climb is indeed fecking desperate...

In reply to Jules B:

In the 2000 guide isn't Fluted Columns is VD and Square Chimney / Whiskey Crack is MVS. Where are these "updated" grades coming from?

Personally don't feel 'cliff is undergraded across the board by any means... Overhanging Groove, Great Western and Demon Wall are all probably fair for HVS, and Z Climb Elim seemed a reasonable E1. I admit though to finding some of the more "udgey" climbs desperately sapping (getting into the groove on Frankland's Green Crack, VS, I found harder than anything on Black Wall Eliminate, E2). But since these kind of moves seem almost technically ungradable, upgrading the routes would be just an inappropriate sop to wall-bred sorts like myself: better to just embrace their old-skool nature and prepare to struggle!

In reply to Beaver: I'm a yorkshire man born and bred but have just returned from two years living in Lincolnshire-an area not renowned for its climbing-so all I can conclude is that I've gone soft. I'll have to work on getting my Yorkshire grit back!

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose: Very good! Carry on thrutching. I have no idea where the new grades are coming from....

In reply to sculptor:

Most of the routes at Almscliff are fair at the grade. As the guide points out, the steepness of the rock can make some of the routes feel tough - rather like a gritstone version of Swanage. Very few seem to be genuine sandbags though - with the exception of Z Climb!

In reply to Jon Dittman:>

In that case there are a lot of very convincing ladyboys who climb there regularly.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Do you think any of those ladyboys would like to comment on the grade for Wall of Horrors?

Giving a route E3 6a because the upper crux move is 6a, despite the slappy 6b start is the action of a cad, a bounder and a localist.

No, I don't care that AA originally missed that bit out.
No, I don't care that "most people" boulder out the start and then have their rack thrown up to them.

B*******ds.

In reply to palomides:

That makes me feel much better about being completely unable to do those moves!

In reply to palomides:


That's a good idea! I was wondering how I'd manage to do the bottom moves whilst loaded down with lots of gear!

Mind you I don't fancy hanging around up there racking gear, if I rack up on the ground and can't to the first moves then at least I'm not going to hurt myself!

In reply to MeMeMe:

In my experience it's kinda like

jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap....THUD
jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap....THUD
jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap....THUD
jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap....THUD
jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap....THUD
jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap.......... OMG!!! TOO PUMPED TO GET TO THE TOP

<lower off>

<ab for gear with eyes shut>

<come back two weeks later>

jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap....THUD
jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap....THUD
jinglejinglejingle GRUNTslap.......... phew...


After the events described above, I read somewhere the useful hint... "bandolier"

But having done it without resorting to such sensible/underhand tactics, I feel obliged to sneer at them. Hope that helps

In reply to MeMeMe:


It was upgraded to Severe in the previous edition, before being rightly restored to its traditional grade. For some reason they chose to upgrade Square Chimney and Whisky Crack though at the same time, hopefully these will also be restored in the next edition.

The main reason most of the Almscliff routes feel hard (at least the low grade ones, I can't comment on the rest) is that they're mostly steep, without many opportunities for resting/thinking/faffing.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: agree. And is it just me, or is the bottom crack of South Chimney Layback a toughie? I assume it gets 'severe' because its low down and the rest of the route above the crack is easy.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

No, not just you! I've seen many people back off it. I'd give it S 4c.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

So you want Square chinmey reduced back to severe so you can continue to say you can't clinb VS?
It is harder than a lot of other vs routes and it is you who has no idea of grading, just doing the same things over again so they appear easy.

Stick that in your chalkbag Simon.;-P

In reply to sutty:
Square Chimney was one of my first leads, I thought then and think now that it is fine at Severe. I then proceded to have a major epic on the Whisky Crack continuation, and if asked would have probably said it was at least VS, but I didn't find the 'hidden' hold, with that it's no more than HS if that.
Square Chimney is a lot easier than Parson's for instance, yet is now graded harder.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


Is it really?! I didn't think so - Square Chimney/Whisky Crack felt like VS to me.

South Chimney Layback is easy if (and only if) you can jam.

In reply to Andy Hobson:

Yes! And it's not just me that thinks so, for years it's been considered the hardest severe at Almscliff.


Agreed. Though I thought the jamming was at least as hard as some of the easier VSs there, it's just that it doesn't carry on for very long.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Face it Simon, all the routes bar Birds Nest at Almscliffe graded severe are sandbags, as are some of the vdiffs. It is just the way the cliff has developed.

In reply to sutty:
Yes, and I certainly wouldn't exclude Birds Nest But if you upgrade all the easier routes, you then have to upgrade the harder ones too. I've not done many VSs there, but the ones I have done have all been significantly harder than the severes (apart from Birds Nest!). So if the severes become VSs, the VSs become HVS, ...
The main thing is to keep it consistent. So one Almscliff severe will be of similar difficulty to another Almscliff severe, but easier than an Almscliff VS. The piecemeal upgrading that's gone on has merely introduced incosistency IMHO.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Ah yes - women. I forgot about them. Well I bet that the average woman who climbs at Armscliff can down 10 pints of ale before arm wrestling anyone into oblivion grrrrr!

In reply to sculptor:

All I know is that hungover to the core at 10 am
on Sunday, Square Chimney was not happening at all for
me, complete gibber and retreat, leaving a nut behind.
Could only focus on the amazing polish and outwards
sloping nature of the chimney, sure it is probably not
too bad in reality, but felt awful then. Retreating to
the second, did find Franklands Green Crack superb however,
and even managed Black Wall Eliminate in not too bad style, probably due to the completely different character of the later, incut holds and not polished. Have struggled to lead Birds Eye in the past too. Just think some obvious targets at VS and below are a bit sketchy due to polish, and you need to be feeling up for it to reach your normal lead grade. Have lead and enjoyed Fluted Columns and also seconded Overhanging Groove which is ace, and at the grade.

In reply to Jon Dittman: lol. You obviously have never seen my "throwing up after 4 pints" demonstration.

In reply to sculptor:
Have you climbed in Northumberland? Or on some of the North York Moors crags, especially Ingleby Incline or Park Nab?

In reply to Andy Hobson:

Its not an easy jam at all. The only saving grace is its not too high if you come off.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

It's certainly isn't hard and only requires you to jam for about 3 or 4 moves.

In reply to Andy Hobson: ha - but it all depends on what grade you climb at. I notice you list E4 as your best onsight. I think the jams are tough for Severe, though I grant you its probably easy if you are used to climbing in the mid E numbers.

In reply to palomides:

So E3 6b then.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:


All two of them - a couple of years ago!

The jams are 4b/c really but as there's only a few of them off the ground I don't think giving it severe is unreasonable.

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

As I said in my earlier post, from the 'Databases' on this forum, click on the link at the top of the page and type in Almscliff

In reply to Yorkspud:

It should be.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=65

In reply to Andy Hobson: no, and I dont either, on the same grounds - if you do pop off, you're unlikely to do serious damage. Still, its a real knuckle scraper.

In reply to Ridge:

because whoevcer entered the routes originally used a combination of old guidebook grades and entirely made-up grades (eg Parson's Chimney was originally down as VS).
And the crag moderator appears to be on strike

In reply to sculptor:

You're complaining about them now? You should have been climbing there when I first started in 1978 and Great Western was VS and Black Wall Eliminate HVS 5a! (Now HVS 5a, and E2 5c respectively).

In reply to sculptor:

Stanage VSs are distributed at the soft end of that grade so VSs should feel harder than Stanage VSs (in general)

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I dont blame her! Given the amount of arguing about the grades at almscliff that goes on here, if I was the crag moderator I'd be lock myself in a cupboard and spend my days going "wibble".

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:
o deep joy. I'v just looked up the database and found that the mod for alscliff is called "Chris Craggs". Please please please let that be his real name!

In reply to sculptor:

Square Chimney/Whisky Crack can't be VS. I've led it in my trainers, and I'm rubbish.
It is a bit polished however.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Errrr... do you not own and guide books?

In reply to Tom M Williams:
tyhe Rockfax Yorkshire guide isn't out yet

In reply to Simon Caldwell: and I dont use that one anyway, the Yorkshire Gritstone guide is much dinkier to pop in a rucksack. cant say i'v come across the name before, but I'm delighted that IS his real name.

In reply to Simon Caldwell: You know what i was getting at!

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie: I was making the point that he writes guidebooks for Rock fax.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/profile.php?id=96

I've heard he climbs a bit...

In reply to palomides:

The boulder problem start to Wall of Horrors is 6a, stiff 6a but 6a nevertheless, can't imagine it getting 6b...

The grades at almscliff just relfect the style of climbing there- all that is needed is a bit of grit (although big biceps help too)!

Al

In reply to sculptor: only been a few times,all the stuff ive done seems fair.
great western is overgraded and overstarred vs and 1 star anywhere else

In reply to alaan:

As part of the route, approached in a route-climbing style(e) it's a lot harder than you'd expect 6a to be - if you don't believe me then go and try it carrying a rack, trailing two ropes and with no mat!

Of course, if you just boulder it out and <fiend> choose not to accept the full challenge of the route </fiend> then it'll probably feel rather easy

In reply to alaan:

Err... V5 = 6a??

Mick

In reply to Andy Hobson:

yes yes, I saw this, thats how I found the name. I just thought it might be a witty pseudonym, like Rocky Stone or Cliff Wall. I am delighted that it isnt. Truly my cup overfloweth.Please pardon my ignorance of the climbing aristocracy, I just thought the name was funny. <stalks off with nose pointed skywards in self righteous huff>

In reply to sculptor:

Almscliff, the one of the last grade havens from Rockfax buying southern woofters. Long live Almscliff...

Oh, and Wimberry...

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Stop taking the piss out of Chris's name, his original surname was netball and he decided to change it to one more in keeping with his hobby.















(I sometimes tell lies on here and people take it the wrong way)

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

At least you didn't say 'that' a good name for a climber' - I have only heard that a few dozen times.


Chris

PS I am eternally grateful my parents didn't call me Clifford!!!!!!!

In reply to Chris Craggs: ok. now I'm totally cringing. I swear I will never comment upon a name again. Not even that Hotbad Peteel, who probably really is a Bollywood movie star. And its not Hoopily's fault that Mr and Mrs Fruitsome got drunk just before the christening. I'm off now to brand the scarlet letter on my forehead and smear myself with treacle to show my remorse .

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Don't say that, with the current hormone levels on RT you'll be inundated with e-mails asking if you've got pictures of the event.

In reply to Ridge: Hah! For the right price I am prepared to stage the event. With Sutty as as my body-double, of course.

or perhaps a midsummer theme picnic. Climbers to meet at almscliff to experiment with smearing themselves with treacle and marmalade as an alternative to placing protection. Simply wedge the whole body against the rock when panic strikes, hold the position, et voila! The risk of falling is now zero.

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

Thank you.
That image is now seared into my cortex

In reply to GrahamD:

Hmm...Fern Crack is as hard as most Almscliff VSs

In reply to Psychopathic_Barbie:

I am getting fed up with being a body double.
Bambi one week, Bella Emberg next, not sure if I am thick or thin.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:no, can't say I have. why? are going to tell me that it's mega hard but everything's a vdiff

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


I agree but I attempted(and I mean attempted-not climbed!) central crack HS4b this afternoon and it was so polished both for feet and hands that I really felt it to be undergraded. Even my buddy, a solid VS leader, couldn't do it. I accept that consistency is important but if a climb has seen so much traffic so as to alter it fundamentally(and I deem it fundamental when a hold goes from good and 'sticky' to ice rink smooth)then surely this should be reflected in the grade....or is this already the case?

In reply to Andy Hobson:

Buts that Almscliff through and through isn't it. The gardes are right if you can Jam!

In reply to sculptor: undergraded i wouldn,t like to say buty definayely harder now due to distinct lack of friction! the place aint nowhere near as good / frictious (sp?) as brimham in my OPINION (half of yorkshire and there dogs feet have taken their toll). ARMScliff my butt more like slipscliff

jas

In reply to sutty:

So shall I tell Michael Winner you're busy?

In reply to sculptor:

They're similarly graded to Almscliff.

In reply to sculptor:

But the difficulties are just in the first few feet - once your feet are at about head height it's less polished and much easier.

Giving that sort of thrutch-and-squirm route a technical grade is always quite hard!

In reply to sculptor:
>central crack HS4b this afternoon and it was so polished both for feet and hands that I really felt it to be undergraded.

Which bit ? HS or 4b ?


Obviously not as solid as he thought, then !

In reply to sculptor:

I think in debates like this, what people tend to forget is that in any sensible distrution of grades about a mean grade will mean that <>half the routes at that grade WILL feel hard for the grade.

In reply to sculptor: Why the debate about grading at almscliff, there is nothing wrong with it at all.
It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there who are A,unable to jam or B,are unable to use the rounded holds!! So next time you're at almscliff just take note of the holds and you'll find that the majority of them DO have a larger radius than most other crags, get used to this type of hold and you'll learn to love almscliff.

In reply to sculptor: mmmmm.......grades at Almscliffe....a perennial poser! When I started climbing back in 1971 that was basically all we knew in terms of a good climbing ground. It was an easy bus ride out from Bradford and was our introduction to the sport. Reminiscing now - hawser laid nylon ropes, Troll Mk3 Harnesses, EB's, Hawkins Masters or Gollies (rock shoes to you lot now, made of hard carbon rubber and stiff as boards), MOACs and Hex wedges, it was primitive stuff but we loved it. As the years rolled by and we went to the bigger ranges (well Langdale and Stoney Middleton anyway) we knew we had a great base of skills to climb with. Nothing, but nothing else, except perhaps the sandstone, equipped one for climbing elsewhere in the world. I still maintain that a good Almscliffe climber goes at least three grades better anywhere else, be it adjectival or numerical grades, French or English. The start of Wall of Horrors always was and still is touchstone 6B, on sight and as part of a lead. Z Climb Direct, Great Western, Demon Wall, Overhanging Groove, Frankland's, Black Wall Eliminate always good VS climbs, need commitment, balls, a steady head and good style to succeed. Something modern climbers don't always have. A sense of survival and the desire to succeed were juxtaposed in even measure and the balance of the two is paramount on these sort of routes - as well as the requisite skills. It presumes a sense of responsibility on the part of the individual for his or her judgement as to what to climb and how to climb each route. Something which the modern climber seems to shy away from, assuming the guidebook will see them right and needing the beta to allow success. Don't believe all that you read, assess and confront the risks for yourself. I am not attempting to belittle modern climbers but trying to point out the different approach that exists now. Do your own thing and make up your own mind, use the grades and guidebooks for inspiration but interpret for yourself and act responsibly - it's your life on the line after all! Questions are only difficult if you don't know the answer - grades are only confusing if you can't interpret them correctly.

In reply to unclesamsauntibess: excellent answer and pretty much the conclusion I had come to after further thought and thoughtful bouldering there. I am extremely fortunate to have the crag on my doorstep and so am able to get there often. even in the short time since I started this thread I feel that my mental approach, technique and strength have improved. I am beginning to consider and read the rock/problem much more and am developing a feel for it and for my own strengths and weaknesses. you're right in saying we rely too much on guide book info-at least I did-it's a much more engaging and personally satisfying experience if you deal with each climb/problem based on your own initiative and growing knowledge. I also feel that my next trip to stanage or the like will see me a greatly improved technical, and confident, climber. I am now heading towards being a climber in the true sense rather than a 'rock tourist' ticking off routes just because i've been there and done them regardless of style or cleanliness of climb. starting to sound a bit wet now so I will stop. suffice to say I have a long way to go...

every1 who climbs 4 any length of time will have worked out that depending on ur style u will struggle up certain routes an breeze up others jus need 2 practice those things u aren't so good at (most ppl seem 2 struggle with jammin, so go find sum good granite tons of cracks to jam out of)

In reply to sculptor:

I dont see Almscliffe as being especially unusual although I've still a lot to do there. It has a few traditional sandbags and a lot of upper end VS jamming lines. My site doesnt have Yorkshire on it yet but from a day of recent climbing I had the following views:

Stew Pot possible HVD 3c* P1
Climb the balancy wall right of Easy Way taking care to think about your footwork at the precarious rock-over sequence onto the ledge of sloping holds. The crack back up the left makes a fine finish.
Low Man Easy Way possible D 3b** P1
The Big Flake Ramp has a hard start and another hard move to gain the ramp line. A delightful romp above with several possible finishes.
Pinnacle Flake Climb possible HVD 4a* P1
A climb between ledges: gaining the third is tricky but well protected with cams but maybe feels S 4b if you miss the useful hidden hold. If you make it reward yourself with the easier juggy climbing up the flake crack or the wall just right.
Fluted Columns possible S 4a*** P1
Confident exploration will reap rewards in progress and protection on this superb route. Low in the severe grade but the nervous will find it horribly precarious. Big and small protection useful.
Square Chimney possible S 4b* P1
The Chimney is hard to enter and even harder to exit so take your time and have a good look first to sort out possible holds and runners. Almost justifies P2 given the polish and ease of knocking out your protection.
Whisky Crack possible S 4b/HS 4b*
The upper crack is normally started from a block on the left (if you can reach!) but is easily awkward enough to push the grade to HS if started direct from below.
Central Crack possible HS 4b**
An already desperate entry into the offwidth can be made even harder by lack of forethought. The ledge above gives a necessary rest for an equally imposing finish up the slanting undercut crack (perhaps best tackled on its right). The start is a precarious P2 without huge cams.
Bird’s Nest Crack possible HS 4b*** P1
Perfection in jamming with a useful spike at 2/3rds height. Low in the HS grade unless jamming is not your thing.
The Traditional Climb possible VS 4c*** P1
A superb route with big satisfying moves off good jams and intermediate holds that require good body position. Described as awkward but only if you fail to get the sequence right!
Long Chimney possible HVD 4a** P1
Tight green and polished but at least a useful crack gives runners for the decidedly insecure udging moves to the upper ledge system. Take the filthy escape inside and through up summon up courage for the imposing moves up and left for the outside exit where hidden jugs are rumoured!
Parson’s Chimney HS 4b*** P1
An intimidating classic with amazing positions. The bottom section is often bypassed for the start of Overhanging Groove but is excellent: work up jugs to the crux sequence with excellent bridging, good rests and protection. The upper section starts in the depths of the chimney where runners and a good break will be found and used to build confidence for traverse back out above space to a comfortable bridging half rest under the final overhang (unless vertigo and uncertainty get the better of you). The finishing holds up the nose on the left are good but not so good that all chimney technique can be abandoned!
Central Climb Possible VS 4c*** P1
Steep sustained moves with excellent jams and good holds but needs a determined attitude and efficient climbing with a spaced approach to the ample protection to conquer cleanly at the grade. Another superb route at the top end of the VS grade.

In reply to palomides:

I don't think Alan missed out the start - avoiding simply isn't possible. The ground has been worn away by at least 2 feet since those days though.
Mike H

In reply to MeMeMe:

Try it the sensible way - boulder the start continue to the horizontal crack and then traverse left into the chimney to escape. Get it wired by doing it several times and then return with just the friends and or nuts you know you will need in the break.
Mike H

In reply to palomides: on the day hank pasquill,jim cambell and steve bancroft did the 2nd ascent of big greenie and the first of goblins eyes roof.they had to use a shoulder stand to start wall of horrors.it used to described that you could either do the problem start or use combined tactices.